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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:24:05
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I think it would be interesting to see a novel on Manshoon. Not necessarily the Manshoon wars, but focusing on the one of or all three of the remaining Manshoons. Not that it really matters. Who knows who will still be around after the spellplague... |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm sure I saw a topic around here somewhere... 
Hmmm...
You know, I think it's a shame that the Manshoon Wars plot got nipped in the bud. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 21:31:52
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| A novel on the formation of the Zentharim to get a better idea of the internal politics and power plays, as well as the individual ambitions and goals, of the inner circle would be a dream for me, but I wont exactly hold my breath. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:55:40
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I think Manshoon had the potential to be one of the nastiest villains in the setting, a real mastermind that has a thousand plots going at once, and the multiple clones, if handled properly, could have been great "red herrings," for when the PCs run into one, defeat it, and think that they have finally ended the Manshoon threat, only to find out that they only ran into an "old," intentionally less powerful clone that was there just to keep the PCs busy.
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:56:56
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I've always seen Manshoon as one of the most powerful wizards in the Forgotten Realms...that is alive and without a god's backing.
I'd gladly place him at odds with the Red Wizards. There are (by Ed's writings at least!) so many minor wizards in the Zhentarim that they could easily, if mustered, form an army all alone!
I remember in 1st Edition he was only perhaps level 13; but I don't want to dig out the box to find out...those old yellowed pages are precious you know! Even then, he was a powerful wizard and shouldn't be messed with. Of course, that was back in the day when a certain wizard that was only level 3 had lots of magic rings and was considered a serious threat in the sourcebooks. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 23:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Yes! Exactly the way I think about Manshoon...but didn't want to mention a Marvel Comic here. LOL
To add to what I was saying earlier, I would pit Manshoon against any Red Wizard...simply because his magic isn't limited to certain schools. He is the most versatile fella on the block as far as badguys go. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Hmmmm... How about one of the Manshoon clones jumping one-hundred years ahead into the proposed "100-year time jump" of future Faerūn. Whereupon it becomes the central character in setting for a brand new series of adventures, fittingly titled -- ManshooN 1485 DR.
In this new setting, we find a mysterious being named Tyger Wylde, which some have labelled a warforged, has taken over the future Manshoon's home city of Zhentil Keep, ruling it with a eye toward the bottom line of his ever-expanding financial empire. The future Manshoon, upon arriving in 1485 DR, immediately becomes aware of just how corrupt and decayed his once beautiful homeland has become under Wylde's rule. Deciding at once to challenge this warforged tyrant, the future Manshoon heads to Zhentil Keep. Caught unprepared, he is quickly defeated.
Seriously beaten the future Manshoon eventually finds refuge with the last remnants of the Zhentarim, who assist him in creating a new and powerful suit of armor capable of competing with Wylde's technology. The future Manshoon is able to defeat Wylde and gain control of his home city. Whereupon the future Mansoon then decides that Faerūn has become chaotic and corrupt and that to save it, he has to conquer it.   
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 Oct 2007 01:08:48 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Then again, I love the thought of Manshoon's clones operating like Doctor Doom's Doombots, thinking that they actually are Manshoon until they run up against the REAL Manshoon, which keeps adversaries paranoid and on edge.
Hmmmm... How about one of the Manshoon clones jumping one-hundred years ahead into the proposed "100-year time jump" of future Faerūn. Whereupon it becomes the central character in setting for a brand new series of adventures, fittingly titled -- ManshooN 1485 DR.
In this new setting, we find a mysterious being named Tyger Wylde, which some have labelled a warforged, has taken over the future Manshoon's home city of Zhentil Keep, ruling it with a eye toward the bottom line of his ever-expanding financial empire. The future Manshoon, upon arriving in 1485 DR, immediately becomes aware of just how corrupt and decayed his once beautiful homeland has become under Wylde's rule. Deciding at once to challenge this warforged tyrant, the future Manshoon heads to Zhentil Keep. Caught unprepared, he was quickly defeated.
Seriously beaten the future Manshoon quickly found refuge with the last remnants of Zhentarim, who assisted him in creating a new and powerful suit of armor capable of competing with Wylde's technology. The future Manshoon was able to defeat Wylde and gain control of his home city. Whereupon the future Mansoon then decided that Faerūn had become chaotic and corrupt and that to save it, he had to conquer it.
<smirk>
As for Fzoul...I have never liked the character. He had some small appeal before the Time of Troubles...but after that I had no use for him at all. Perhaps it's my overwhelming sense of not being controlled or whatever, but after the Time of Troubles stuff...well, I just couldn't relate to the guy at all.
I'm actually looking forward to him not being around any longer...at least that is my hope.
Comparing him to other priests, I remember that there are tons of clerics of higher level than him in the Realms. The 2e book that detailed several cities (can't remember the name...and don't want to pull out the storage crates) had several clerics that were higher level than Fzoul in the various cities.
Not until 3.x did I consider Fzoul more than a lackey cleric honestly. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 01:50:06
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Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 02:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead?
Because WotC either fails to give their artist descriptions of what they are painting, or they give descriptions and then don't worry about whether or not the artists match it. Considering the drow skin debacle (when they decided that since artists couldn't get the skin tone right, that the description should be changed!), I think it's the latter.
I really want to give them more credit than that, but the evidence speaks against it.  |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 03:17:39
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For me, Fzoul is the craziest kind of priest ever. He's one for hire. Sort of like 8-bit's Cleric. Really, he's just in it for the goods and the actual dogma means little.
If Bane ever betrays Fzoul, I'm sure he'll take up with Shar or whatever other god that he wants to worship instead of him (Fzoul-Cleric of Azuth!). I find that kind of attitude to be refreshing.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 18 Oct 2007 03:19:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Why is Fzoul always drawn as blond when he has been described as a redhead?
Because WotC either fails to give their artist descriptions of what they are painting, or they give descriptions and then don't worry about whether or not the artists match it. Considering the drow skin debacle (when they decided that since artists couldn't get the skin tone right, that the description should be changed!), I think it's the latter.
I really want to give them more credit than that, but the evidence speaks against it.
Yes, the drow skin issue is annoying. Along with Fzoul's hair and Drizzt's perpetual golden head plate.
As far as "flighty" clerics go (that is, clerics who switch deities all the time), the worst one I've ever seen was in the Watercourse trilogy. That was kind of ridiculous and hard to believe, but funny. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kheris
Seeker
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:27:59
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I've always preferred an arrangement where Manshoon was just biding his time until overthrowing Fzoul was feasible, both tactically and politically.
[Cue Mr. Serling]
Submitted for your approval, a Manshoon content to wait for Fzoul to die, or fall out of Bane's favor.
He's already lost Shadowdale and Scyulla Darkhope to adventurers, and was forced to parley with Cormanthyr (go Elves, go!). In this Fzoul must have lost a fair number of troops for minimal gain. As for Hillsfar? Not much of a coup, seeing that the Fey'ri did all the work for him.
Fzoul could be on the road to losing his Chosen status, and if that happens, I could see Manshoon killing him ASAP and having the internal political power within the Black Network to keep them from fracturing. Consider that the loss of face Fzoul would suffer, and that the clergy of Bane may view it as weakness, which is never to be tolerated.
Alternately, Manshoon could just diguise himself as Elminster and blast him in public, then make a powergrab, assuming any witnesses were
A: Fooled by his illusions/polymorph/whathaveyou
B: Even know what the Old Sage looks like.
Mayhap I'm reading too much into this...  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:40:43
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I like your reasoning. Fzoul has gained more though: Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar make three really strong gains. I'm sure Melvaunt and Thentia are only a breath away from being wholly taken over by Zhentilar soldiers too. Fzoul lost face in the novel (which happens to the bad guys in novels) but in the gaming supplements, he has gained alot.
I still see him falling from grace soon though...or being obliterated by Manshoon, Chosen status not withstanding. Even as a Chosen of Bane, Fzoul is still no match for Manshoon...his willingness to allow Manshoon to have anything to do with the Zhentarim after attempting to undo him shows he has no long term grasp of how to ensure his own safety! I mean, if I attempted to force myself into the Oval Office by means of a coupe, I don't think I would then turn around and say: Mr. President, please feel free to continue working with the government and military as you see fit!
Recipe for a good can kicking. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Kheris
Seeker
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
I like your reasoning. Fzoul has gained more though: Phlan, Mulmaster and Hillsfar make three really strong gains. I'm sure Melvaunt and Thentia are only a breath away from being wholly taken over by Zhentilar soldiers too. Fzoul lost face in the novel (which happens to the bad guys in novels) but in the gaming supplements, he has gained alot.
I still see him falling from grace soon though...or being obliterated by Manshoon, Chosen status not withstanding. Even as a Chosen of Bane, Fzoul is still no match for Manshoon...his willingness to allow Manshoon to have anything to do with the Zhentarim after attempting to undo him shows he has no long term grasp of how to ensure his own safety! I mean, if I attempted to force myself into the Oval Office by means of a coupe, I don't think I would then turn around and say: Mr. President, please feel free to continue working with the government and military as you see fit!
Recipe for a good can kicking.
Very true about keeping Manshoon around
What supplements are those other gains in, or did I skim past them in the GHotR? I honestly thought that Hillsfar was his only gain.
Not to derail, but it's great to see the Elves being dangerous opponents. The terms of that disengagement must be a real slap to Zhentarim morale. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:08:56
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The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again.
The Mage in the Iron Mask is another novel I have trouble with accepting as anything but a kender-tale. I tend to forget the "evil- twin" thing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
The High Blade of Mulmaster joined the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim early on in 3.x (perhaps the Forgotten Realms 3.0 book?...can't recall off the top of my head) because it is no longer the "real" High Blade, but his "eviler" (if that is a good word???) twin brother that killed him and then made the deal with Fzoul.
Phlan I'm sure was mentioned in the GHotR...I think they even had a sidebar about it...but would have to look again.
I want to say it was in Mysteries of the Moonsea. There's also a good bit of info on Fzoul's activities in Cloak & Dagger. |
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How powerful is Manshoon? Fzoul Chembryl?
