quote:

---

Originally posted by Firestorm


Vangerdahast is not much higher than 19-21CR, but he handled Rivalen Tanthul in ROTA, and Rivalen is over 30CR

---

quote:

---

In other words, there are MORE Manshoons than 3e lore currently admits (as Ed will reveal in the fullness of time). And I'd say he's far more powerful than Fzoul, because he has fall-back plans and caches and plans set in motion far beyond Fzoul's capacity to anticipate. He may have suffered a personal setback within the Zhentarim, temporarily, but (to quote Ed of the Greenwood, hereafter):

"He's MUCH more cunning and better prepared than Fzoul has ever been. Fzoul always plays the "Hi, God of the Moment, I'm Yours!" card, and that's like juggling a flaming sword: no matter how good you are, sooner or later you're going to get badly cut and burned. My money is always on Manshoon - - and remember, I created Fzoul, Manshoon, and the Zhentarim, but haven't really had the chance to properly tell any of their stories, yet. Just fragments."

---

quote:

---

And yes, I'd certainly say that one of the early Manshoons (even when there "was only one," his 'cloning around' was such that he'd died several times over, so none of those we know now are even close to the original) is still lurking, and working with certain powerful Zhentarim wizards to bring about Fzoul's eventual downfall (and most of the rest of the priests, so the wizards end up 'on top' again), only VERY subtly this time, so that once Fzoul and his fellow priests notice something is wrong, the slow process will have reached the 'inevitable' stage. We'll all just have to see if they ever succeed. :}

Mmm-hmmm. So saith Ed, indeed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Especially since we know the Manshoon of Westgate is only 12th level.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Especially since we know the Manshoon of Westgate is only 12th level.

---

The last I checked, he was at least level 18. I'd like to know where you got 12th level from...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

I disagree on the Fzoul being the ultimate priest thing. There's also Quilue, Naneatha Suaril of Selune in Waterdeep, the Sharran Death Knight in Undermountain, and probably a dozen others in various sourcebooks who are at least in the 20's. Fzoul just has had more air time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firestorm

Its far more likely that when Manshoon was killed, and all his clones activated at once, that his power decreased in each. Not that there is a puppet master Manshoon controlling each. The fact that each Manshoon tried killing each other uncontrollably backs this logic up. Only 3 Manshoons survived as far as canon goes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firestorm

Only 3 Manshoons survived as far as canon goes.

---

quote:

---

This spell creates a duplicate of a human, demihuman, or humanoid creature from any scrap of bone, hair, tissue, or at least six drops of blood from that being. If the caster is not the being to be duplicated, that living creature must touch the duplicate body, as it forms, to give it life.

This clone is identical to the original being in memories, skills, experience level, and appearance at the time the organic tissue was obtained from the being. It has one less point of Constitution than the original being, and it cannot form at all if the original being has a current Constitution of 1. All other ability scores are identical.

(snip)

Whenever the original being touches the stasis clone, the clone's memories, skills and experience levels are updated to match the original being's. Purely physical differences, such as aging, a wound, or an amputation the original being has gone through, are not mirrored by the clone in this process.

(snip)

Manshoon has used this spell both to escape a final death and to remain young. As he ages, he can update his stasis clone, get himself slain (usually in a reckless attack that destroys an enemy, such as a powerful Red Wizard), and return as a physically younger clone. Several wizards have offered him fantastic sums for a copy of this spell and reportedly have been refused. Others (including apprentices) have perished quite messily at Manshoon's hands when they attempted to steal the spell.

Manshoon's stasis clones are obvious targets for those who wish him dead, permanently. Several times his enemies or his rivals in the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim have gone to a great deal of trouble to kill him and destroy all of his stasis clones, only to find that Manshoon had squirreled away one or two they had missed. One reason that Manshoon has not advanced to a higher level as a wizard is undoubtedly the cumulative loss of a great deal of experience because of the lag between newly activated clones that had not been recently updated and previous, now-dead Manshoon incarnations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic
As powerful as your campaign needs them to be

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Hooded One
Elminster easily beats Manshoon repeatedly not purely due to a power inbalance, but because El knows things about Manshoon (his truename, many of his "hanging" spells, his shieldings and mantle, how to activate many of his usually-worn items; many of the Chosen can use the Weave to "see" such things, and turn the items and spells of an opponent gainst them), and thus "has his number."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faraer

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Hooded One
Elminster easily beats Manshoon repeatedly not purely due to a power inbalance, but because El knows things about Manshoon (his truename, many of his "hanging" spells, his shieldings and mantle, how to activate many of his usually-worn items; many of the Chosen can use the Weave to "see" such things, and turn the items and spells of an opponent gainst them), and thus "has his number."

---

And there's another thing, as a general point about the Realms, I've explained and re-explained on the Wizards boards until I lost track of which paraphrases I'd used.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **

That's really cute, but not D&Dish

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kuje

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **

That's really cute, but not D&Dish

---

UH? What the hell does that mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kuje

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

** Cough cough Kuge should stop reading at that point **

That's really cute, but not D&Dish

---

UH? What the hell does that mean?

---

It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic
It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The original World of Greyhawk boxed set included a preface that was told from the point of view of scholars looking back on the history of Oerth who had created a mathematical model to simulate the battles and abilities of those people and events of the past. The point was then made that no theoretical model could perfectly simulate the reality that was being discussed. So I guess 1st edition Greyhawk wasn't "official" D&D either, by that standard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic

It means that IMHO, Ed's answer doesn't fit the "official" D&D game and that I know you don't like me talking about such thing.

---

For goodness's sake, the FR was a STORY setting before it was a game setting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skeptic


I'm not saying that the way Ed handled it is "bad", I'm saying that it may not work for the average D&D campaign.

---