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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 02:08:03
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Help required! The lore says that trade is normally done by road and ship, but I'm worried that the ability to create gates/portals/teleportation circles (and use them for trade) may damage this lore. I'm hoping someone can provide an explanation for why this doesn't happen.
Firstly, was the creation of gates and portals and teleportation circles and such possible pre-3e?
Secondly, taking that wealthy cities could potentially employ mages to create teleportation circles at least since 3e (per FRCS):
Wouldn't a wealthy city such as Mirabar pay mages to transport their mineral wealth to Waterdeep rather than having it carried to Waterdeep by road and ship?
I found an Ed-post, related to the use of teleportation by flying ships, where he said this:
quote:
...and ANY teleportation of large conglomerations of disparate elements (a ship with all its fittings, its hold full of cargo in various containers, the crew and all of their belongings and weapons, even the rats stowing away) is fraught with danger and difficulty, the least of which is the various individual elements ending up in different end spots.
BUT I'm thinking that probably doesn't affect people carrying things - for example, players with sacks of gold coins don't tend to end up with their gold scattered all across Faerun. And it certainly wouldn't affect them carrying just a few items. So for instance, 12 people passing through a gate could carry 20x 1 pound gold trade bars (that's only 20 items on their person) worth 1,000gp from Mirabar to Waterdeep easily, thus transporting 12,000gp worth of wealth. Taking the road and the ship just seems not worth the risk. If such a gate could be secured by the forces of Mirabar and Waterdeep, it would prove quite beneficial to their economies.
I'm sure Ed has thought about this at some point, and if anyone has any answers I'd be very interested. I'm wondering, as per query 1, if the creation of magical travel was simply less possible in the pre-3e Realms. As of 3e, a 9th level wizard could create a gate if they knew the Teleport Spell and had a wealthy backer. This is even easier post-Spellplague with Teleportation Circle being available at Level 9 as well. I'm worried that, unless a solution has been created in the past, I may have to remove such easy teleportation from my home game to maintain verisimilitude.
Help!
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 03:16:44
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The ugly truth is that magic breaks a lot of basic assumptions that we make about how the world works. It isn't just teleportation. Think of all the reasons why people built castles and walls, then factor in magic, and then ask yourself whether or not it makes sense to continue to build them.
Teleportation shatters certain assumptions we make about the world. You have two options: you can handwave it away (see Ed's response that you quoted) or you can change the way magic works (your suggestion). Those are your only two options.
Unfortunately, you will run into these problems from time to time if you think too hard about things. Another option is to make magic rarer--the more common magic is, the bigger the problem it represents. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 04:20:46
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| Teleportation Circle breaks a lot of things because of its ability to setup a portal to anywhere on the fly. In fact, much of the portal lore is basically broken by this spell in 3.5 the more I've thought on it. This is why you'll note in 5e that you know of "bind points" that you can teleport to. You can't just willy nilly go anywhere. You can create new teleport locations, but doing so involves repeated castings at a location for like a year. You can leave from anywhere, but you can't just go anywhere. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 04:34:19
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I worry that even with binding sites, the wealthy will definitely make use of them in cities, and thus the major traders sponsored by these wealthy folks, will make excessive use of teleportation circle or created portals.
If we follow the limits on teleportation set in Secrets of the Magister, it limits the people going through per use to 12, +horses and pack animals. It also specifically prohibits caravans and armies using them. But, 12 people with their animals could move a LOT of wealth through those portals. It just seems way more cost-effective.
A disincentive to a wealthy city creating a permanent teleportation circle or portal might include reduced security, with having a known teleportation site near to the city. Though I feel this could be countered with appropriate protections.
I'm still really hoping there is some sort of reasoning in the lore for why trade doesn't occur in this way. I'm sure Ed would have an easy response to it, he's been solving problems like this for decades now! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 29 Dec 2016 04:34:39 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 04:46:01
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Ed has covered this obliquely in one of his novels (can't exactly recall which) where he states that mass use of portals/teleports sees people and things go mysteriously "missing". No one knows why although it is suspected that all magics of this type are monitored by various powerful personages and power groups who take advantage of the situation to twist the magic to work for their own ends. Think of it like the transporter accident in "Star Treek: The Motion Picture" - if you had that happen to 20 of your best warriors or had that chest of prized gems simply disappear, you'd be fairly hesitant to use translocation magic of any type with regularity.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 04:58:44
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Interesting... I'm now playing with the idea of a group of malovelent beings operating out of the hidden stronghold that can be accessed from any portal in the world mentioned in Secrets of the Magister. Perhaps there is, say, a 1/100 chance these beings can draw any teleporter into their stronghold, and they are never seen again...
The wealthy might be willing to take a 1/100 transport loss, but it's unlikely those doing the transporting for them would, with their own lives on the line. And a 1/100 wouldn't be a major deterrent to adventurers - it could even be wrangled into a tale all it's own.
The more I think on it the more I like the idea... it reminds me of the power groups Ed has mentioned that grasp for control of the portals in secret that he has mentioned from time to time. Perhaps Larloch could even come into it in some way... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 29 Dec 2016 04:59:14 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 05:04:35
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I found a good quote! Courtesy of THO in the 2012 Ed Thread, 17th of September:
quote:
Ed built a "bugger factor" into portals (mentioned in one of his more recent novels) that prevent them from being used as a shipping system by everyone: they "vanish" items randomly that individuals take through them. If you desperately need to get from Waterdeep to Suzail overnight, or vice versa, you can if you know how to use certain portals...but you might arrive naked. Or just missing your weapons, or a vital magic item.
So yes, networks have been built, but not used effectively. In part because of this, and in part due to mysterious power groups who move to violently control access to, and use of, gates/portals. A long-running theme in Ed's Realms that predates the D&D game, BTW.
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 06:39:36
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The problem with relying on powerful groups and individuals to solve the situation is that you inadvertently push yourself into the magical arms race. It feels like a quick and easy solution, but it ends up becoming a trap. The world quickly bloats with these powerful individuals and groups and their magic--what is to stop group/individual X from using these teleportation/portal networks? Oh, it's this other powerful group/individual over there who is even more powerful. Who is to stop them from using these teleportation/portal networks? Oh, it's this other powerful group/individual over there who is even more powerful than them...
The best solution is always to scale back rather than scale up because it will reduce headaches in the long run. More magic--especially powerful magic--will always lead to more problems like this. As discussed, Ed tries to solve it by handwaving it away by introducing uncertainty. That is one way. However, you can also make such things more difficult and rare. For example, you could make it so that economically it is just outside of the reach of all but the most obscenely wealthy nation states. Then it becomes a matter of pure economics; they invest X amount, and it could be a hundred years before they start to see a return on the investment. That would pretty much kill the economic incentive. Add to that a security disincentive, for example, claim that Waterdeep has attempted such a thing in the past, but when they attempted to make it operational the magic from Undermountain interfered, and horrible monsters began to flood into the city.
That pretty much solves the problem. It is rare because only a few people are powerful enough to do it. It is not economical because it would take too long to earn back the investment. It is dangerous because powerful magic tends to be unpredictable, and it could also potentially create a situation where monsters flood into a city/region. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 07:51:03
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That's an interesting way to do it Aldrick, but if we want to stick to canon, the prices for creating such things are already outlined, and they're cheap enough for most cities to afford with relative ease. The cost of the materials comes to 18,250 gp to create a permanent teleportation circle in 5e, for instance. However, the frequency of Level 9 magic-users is more up in the air and gives a bit more latitude to DMs to create a lower-magic society. The monsters flooding the city is a good excuse too.
I think the uncertainty clause from Ed is enough to discourage their use for trade. I might add to that for the "post-teleportation circle" era I'm playing in, saying that people sometimes also disappear in addition to objects, albeit rarely. The truth may be that sometimes the magic goes awry, or mysterious power groups, or some other explanation, but it will likely be beyond the scope of my players anyway. As long as I have an answer for the "why isn't everyone using these circles all the time" question, I'm relatively happy. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 13:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
That's an interesting way to do it Aldrick, but if we want to stick to canon...
I used to be a stickler for canon. I tried very hard to make everything in my Realms line up with what was true in the canon setting. I don't recommend making that same mistake.
There is a difference between being knowledgeable of canon, and being beholden to canon. If you feel beholden to canon, it is going to drive you insane, and cause you to spend endless hours trying to make everything "work." It isn't just problems like those you've discovered for teleportation, its problems like you discovered in the other thread you made about the Flaming Fist. There will be more in the future because the problems you will encounter are going to be endless.
Things are going to get even worse for you if you start trying to look at the setting through the lens of game mechanics. The mechanics change with the system, so that means the accessibility to things like teleportation is not consistent across the history of the setting. Of course, you can try and grasp onto various "in setting" explanations, but it also presupposes D&D as the default in-world physics for the Forgotten Realms. The problem with this is that D&D is built and constructed--not as an attempt to "realistically" simulate a fantasy world--but as a system built around skirmish combat (fighting between 5-20ish opponents). When things like magic are considered and written, they are written and created with a party of adventurers in mind. This includes when prices are set. No one is sitting down and saying, "Well, if a permanent teleportation circle costs 18,250 gp to create, what does that mean economically for places like Waterdeep who could easily afford many of these?" No, the logic behind the decision is, "A permanent teleportation circle costs 18,250 gp to create, is this balanced for adventurers of X level to have access too?" ...then of course, when 6E D&D comes out at some point in the future, you get all the same concerns and worries all over again.
It is far better to acknowledge that teleportation exists in the setting and the problems that it potentially introduces. Then come up with explanations for why it does not work. Eds explanation, for example, is not something bound to the rules. It is something he can handwave across all editions of D&D. My only issue with Eds explanation is that I don't think he goes far enough to dissuade teleportation/translocation magics from being used for economic benefit. The best and easiest way to discourage is just to make it not economically viable. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 14:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I worry that even with binding sites, the wealthy will definitely make use of them in cities, and thus the major traders sponsored by these wealthy folks, will make excessive use of teleportation circle or created portals.
If we follow the limits on teleportation set in Secrets of the Magister, it limits the people going through per use to 12, +horses and pack animals. It also specifically prohibits caravans and armies using them. But, 12 people with their animals could move a LOT of wealth through those portals. It just seems way more cost-effective.
A disincentive to a wealthy city creating a permanent teleportation circle or portal might include reduced security, with having a known teleportation site near to the city. Though I feel this could be countered with appropriate protections.
I'm still really hoping there is some sort of reasoning in the lore for why trade doesn't occur in this way. I'm sure Ed would have an easy response to it, he's been solving problems like this for decades now!
Security is by far the biggest thing when it comes to this. If a city were to become too dependent on gate travel, and an enemy secured their external portal, all of a sudden the city is crippled. Similarly, having said portal within the city might make it easier to secure, BUT if somehow it were made insecure, suddenly you have an army parked within your walls.
Therefore, the best thing to do is to do the thing where the portal is limited to a very small number of individuals per day, or certain breeds, etc.... Granted, someone could move a tremendous amount of wealth in gems or magic items or somesuch using this, which is why of course use of the portal would probably cost tons of money if it were public. Nobles setting up private portals (say between their businesses) may be able to get some things to far flung markets more safely, and I'm betting that that is in fact done. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 14:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ed has covered this obliquely in one of his novels (can't exactly recall which) where he states that mass use of portals/teleports sees people and things go mysteriously "missing". No one knows why although it is suspected that all magics of this type are monitored by various powerful personages and power groups who take advantage of the situation to twist the magic to work for their own ends. Think of it like the transporter accident in "Star Treek: The Motion Picture" - if you had that happen to 20 of your best warriors or had that chest of prized gems simply disappear, you'd be fairly hesitant to use translocation magic of any type with regularity.
-- George Krashos
Or this, yes, that's a very good point. There's many spells that usurp travelers and dump them in cells. It would be a good way to get rid of an enemy if you just setup their portal to go awry the next time its used. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 16:27:58
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"People going missing" is a definite thing with FR portals/gates. I think its like air travel accidents - It happens infrequently enough where most folks can do it occasionally without worry, but if you were to do it every day, or even multiple times per day, you are increasing your chances of 'an accident' exponentially. Instead of becoming an 'if', it becomes a 'when'.
Then you have guys like Elminster and Larloch (and probably Halaster in his saner moments) who can manipulate portal networks and divert people whenever they want. In the case of someone like Elminster, he may even have a 'warning alarm' in his head (as THE Chosen of Mystra) that lets him know when large groups are moving through portals, so he can 'go in' and cause one of these 'accidents'.
And I'd base it on several factors - the random chance of someone (or several 'someones') being diverted would based upon their total levels (maybe ½), + the age of the Gate (magic decaying). For the age, maybe +1% if over 500 years, and +1% for every 500 years thereafter (so a creator-Race portal would have better than a 60% chance of 'malfunctioning' before you even start to factor-in levels). Certain PrC's, abilities, skills, and feats may offset this if they have something to with magic or teleportation. For example, in the case of a Chosen, their level is ignored (the age of the portal may still apply). I would also say its not a 'one time' thing, but rather, a 'per day' thing. Thus, you can easily see that moving an army through portals quickly becomes an exercise in futility.
And, of course, there is 'DMs (and author) caveat' - it works when YOU say it does, and it doesn't work when YOU say it does. 
I don't actually like leaving things completely to chance like that, but I do like my players to think it is all completely random (hence constant, useless, die-rolling).
And aside from the true accidents, malfunctions, and Archmages mucking about, there are probably certain creatures living in whatever dimension these portals pass through, which can also 'snatch' people every so often. Maybe its the 'dimension of magic' itself (in FR terms, that means people are actually 'Weave Walking'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2016 16:32:07 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 16:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And aside from the true accidents, malfunctions, and Archmages mucking about, there are probably certain creatures living in whatever dimension these portals pass through, which can also 'snatch' people every so often. Maybe its the 'dimension of magic' itself (in FR terms, that means people are actually 'Weave Walking').
That's quite horrifying when you think about it. The magic to create the portal bends time and space, but what happens when time and space become "frayed" or "thin" to the point that you slip through them? I imagine it being similar to stepping into some Far Realm-like dimension, where you end up trapped and incapable of escaping. ...or worse, something that lurks outside of space and time manages to crawl out of one of those portals? That is a potential alternate explanation for some of the aberrant beings running around Toril like beholders and mind flayers. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 17:05:14
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I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!  |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2016 : 21:41:27
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| Maybe the magic was changed due to The Imaskari importing large numbers of slaves, and the Orcgate wars? Interesting subject... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2016 : 02:31:07
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Well, we know for a fact that magic was 'more potent' back during Imaskar (before the Netherese and Karsus screwed it all up, and Mystra and/or Ao had to put restrictions on the whole shebang).
But I'm thinking the Imaskari used something different for their portal tech; perhaps their portals were always 100% reliable (note the 'were' - even their magic breaks down over time). If most of FR's Gates used The Weave (as I suspect - the 'Road of Stars and Shadows' is the actual 'webwork' of the Weave itself), maybe they tapped into something completely different, like transitive plane technology (wormholes?) Unlike the Weave (Arcane) based gates which apparently are akin to the WoT's 'The Ways' - there is an actual, physical realm you are passing through (this is demonstrated in Elminster's Daughter - the Imaskari Gates literally 'folded' space.
The only reason why I would go this route with the Imaskari is that they despised anything to do with gods, and relying on 'The weave' for their portals meant being beholden to Mystryl. I like to think the Netherese were more like 'clever children' playing with matches; most never bothered to study the underpinnings of magic itself, but rather, took a shortcut with the Nether Scrolls and just started seeing how big a 'bang' they could generate. I like to picture the Imaskari being more like theoretical physicists - they understood the primal forces they were working with, and can do much more subtle things with it. Just my take is all.
I like where you went there, Wooly. Once again, i liken magic to computers: The more stuff you have 'running at once', the more likely you'll have some serious issues (and I would imagine a person 'in transit' in a portal is like an app, or how transporters work in Star Trek - you are 'stored in memory' {The Weave itself?} until you arrive at the other end.) Send through too much at once, and it overloads. Magic Items would indeed take up more memory, because they themselves are 'hacks' on the physics of the universe (so you're basically storing tons of 'viruses' in your magical portal for a few seconds). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2016 21:12:37 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2016 : 09:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Teleportation shatters certain assumptions we make about the world. You have two options: you can handwave it away (see Ed's response that you quoted)
How so?
quote:
Unfortunately, you will run into these problems from time to time if you think too hard about things. Another option is to make magic rarer--the more common magic is, the bigger the problem it represents.
That's kind of how it used to work.
The madness with magic spammed to Netheril level and beyond (while pretending it's all still quasi-medieval) started only in Diablo Edition.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I worry that even with binding sites, the wealthy will definitely make use of them in cities, and thus the major traders sponsored by these wealthy folks, will make excessive use of teleportation circle or created portals.
In canon? They kind of do. But it's not Diablo-grade easy and there's also security and policing of city entrances to consider (hide it well or end up busted for smuggling). So the first stage is to find a wizard able and willing do it... and trustworthy... without revealing your plans to the rivals and enemies in process.
quote:
If we follow the limits on teleportation set in Secrets of the Magister, it limits the people going through per use to 12, +horses and pack animals. It also specifically prohibits caravans and armies using them. But, 12 people with their animals could move a LOT of wealth through those portals. It just seems way more cost-effective.
And they do. But again, one of the counterbalances is need for secrecy.
Also, the gates can be broken or compromised - saddle the travellers with an enchantment, haunted or by some entity looking for fresh bodies to possess. If yours don't have anything like this yet, a common-sense way to keep them clean is, again, to make sure they remain unknown to those who can do something like this.
quote:
A disincentive to a wealthy city creating a permanent teleportation circle or portal might include reduced security, with having a known teleportation site near to the city. Though I feel this could be countered with appropriate protections.
Yup.
Also, excessive density of extradimensional shenanigans may cause very unhealthy results.
quote:
I'm still really hoping there is some sort of reasoning in the lore for why trade doesn't occur in this way. I'm sure Ed would have an easy response to it, he's been solving problems like this for decades now!
It does.
For gates: see Ed's answer linked above.
For teleportation: Aurora's Emporium stores are linked via teleportation circle network.
Note that these differ from gates in several important ways. Which includes lesser amount of goods transported per activation and (strongly implied) activation frequency. Practically, this means access is regular, but not at will, thus it's much like traditional transportation, only faster: the representative in your local outlet records the custom orders and stock in need of replenishing, once per day sends a request to the central warehouse, then receives a bunch of supplies. If there's a lot, supplies will be sent in magically shrunk form. If there's still too much - sorry, milord, wait until they sent yours, and consider ordering stuff not right before a holiday the next time. The existence of this bottleneck means they cannot simply use the teleportation platform twice.
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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 09:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 16:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal.
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
Besides, how does the connection get reset to another bag, unless that bag is coming the other way at the exact same time?
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 17:22:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should also think that the amount and type of magic going through a gate would be a factor in its chances of misbehaving.
Random warrior with a magic sword and magic armor? Not much of a chance of a problem.
100 warriors with magic arms and armor? That's a lot more magic, and that much magic would doubtless interact with the magic of the gate in some way -- a strain, if nothing else. And therefore a greater chance of a gate misfire.
Transdimensional magic like portable holes and bags of holding? Even more of a chance for an oops.
I'd still keep these chances low, and I might twist the end results further -- maybe you didn't lose anything, but your bag of holding is inaccessible for an hour after going thru the gate. But that's how I'd handle it.
On a related note, I loved the magic items quirks article in an old issue of Dragon. Sure, you've got a nifty wand of lightning there, and it's reliable... But maybe the wand has an odd habit of levitating when underground, or it buries itself at the bottom of your pack every time you put it in there... Fun stuff!
Interesting idea... your bag of holding and someone else's bag of holding "switch" what they're linked to. So, some other guy becomes suddenly rich by traversing a portal.
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
Besides, how does the connection get reset to another bag, unless that bag is coming the other way at the exact same time?
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters.
Exactly, it would have to be an instance of both passing at the same time. The party might be hired to try to figure out where whatever it was that was in the bag is suddenly gone to. Maybe it was a dangerous magic item. Maybe it was simply a lot of wealth, but with a family heirloom as well. Maybe it contained a holy relic of some faith. Maybe it was something so huge/heavy that it had to be magically shrunk, put in the bag or portable hole to reduce the weight issues of transportation, and then removed on the other side..... hell, maybe it contained Mjolnir and the ground directly underneath it that was slowly scooped into the bag forcing Mjolnir to fall into the bag (yeah, I know that's pushing it). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 17:43:45
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You could also go another route with transdimensional magic items when taking them through portals and gates. It makes sense to say that the magic of the items interferes with the magic of the gate/portal. After all, the portal/gate functions by bending space and time, and transdimensional magic items function similarly. You could make what happens somewhat random on a 2d6 roll.
12: The portal/gate explodes. An area the size of 1d6 city blocks is destroyed in a fiery eldrich magical explosion, killing everyone caught within it horribly.
11: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a two-way connection with the Feywild.
10: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with a random area of the Nine Hells.
9: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with the Shadowfell.
8: You destabilize the portal/gate. It becomes inactive for 1d6 weeks.
7: You get lucky. The portal/gate continues to function normally.
6: You destabilize the portal/gate. It becomes inactive for 2d6 weeks.
5: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with the Shadowfell.
4: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a one-way connection with a random layer of the Abyss.
3: The portal/gate becomes re-routed. It now permanently forms a two-way connection with a random layer of the Abyss.
2: The portal/gate explodes. An area the size of 1d6 city blocks is destroyed in a fiery eldrich magical explosion, killing everyone caught within it horribly. The veil between one of the lower planes (either the Nine Hells or the Abyss) is also weakened in the location, occasionally allowing beings on the other side to slip into the Prime Material World.
16.67% chance of rolling a 7.
13.89% chance of rolling a 6 or 8.
11.11% chance of rolling a 5 or 9.
8.33% chance of rolling a 4 or 10.
5.56% chance of rolling a 3 or 11.
2.78% chance of rolling a 2 or 12.
Something like this could force some interesting decisions on players who have transdimensional magic items. Do they leave the magic items behind to cross the portal/gate? Do they make the gamble? The players themselves shouldn't be impacted--they will keep their items and successfully make it to their desired destination. It is the portal/gate they are using that will be impacted. If they only have to travel through it once, what harm is there in the gamble? Of course, they could then later learn that their actions destroyed six entire blocks of Waterdeep, killing numerous people, and weakening the veil between the Abyss and the city--allowing demons to slip through and begin terrorizing the city... all because they wanted to travel further North quickly AND take their bag of holding with them. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 18:50:24
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I started this post several times and just failed to have the time to properly make a statement so, please, forgive this hasty scrawl. I thought that highly magical civilizations DID actually do mass teleportations, portals, and gates of people, armies, and other things, like when Illusk evacuated its population with the help of Netherese Arcanists, the Aryvandaar magical inserted troops passed Miyeritar's defense during the Crown Wars, the elf built Fey-Alamtine to evacuate the population when Ityak-Ortheel comes a knocking, and one instance I do not clearly remember of an orc horde being sent clear across the realms. And this is beside the already established portal networks that are in adventures, settlement descriptions, or legendary backdrops of the setting. If the elves, some of the most magical & magic item carrying beings in Faerun, are still playing with portals then how dangerous can they really be? For that matter, is than an attempt to "save the setting" because it is starting to look more and more like a "let's screw the players" kind of response.
D&D magic is sexed up technology made for a tactical battle map with little to no thought to the ramifications outside of squad level play. Most of the spells impart no danger to the caster, the effects are available on demand, and they are as reliable as a new flashlight with fresh batteries. This is the system to which the forgotten realms was adapted and altered several times. As the Magic of Faerun book had said - it is what we have, warts and all. It is also the accepted rules of play. I wouldn't go changing them without the players' consent even if the story and world needs it to make more sense from my point of view. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 19:44:16
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I personally wouldn't make all gates dangerous all the time... I just wouldn't have them transport every single thing to pass through every single time.
I don't think I'd give more than a 5% chance for a gate mishap, and it wouldn't be that high unless there was a lot of magic involved, or other transdimensional magics -- like my examples of a bag of holding or 100 soldiers all with magic arms and armor.
And even then, even if that 5% chance is rolled, it's still likely to be a minor thing, like the bag that temporarily can't be accessed.
For normal operations, I'd give only a .5-1% chance of a mishap, and that'd still be something really minor. Maybe the third guy thru, his second wand loses a handful of charges. Or maybe for an hour a magical dagger only does 1 point of damage. Or maybe it's just a thing of a 50gp gemstone disappears from someone's purse, either totally consumed or randomly appearing elsewhere in the Realms.
And that would be it. In most cases, whatever happened would be pretty much unnoticeable.
Now, for the orc horde that was mentioned... Sure, we know thousands of orcs were sent through portals... But we don't know that all of them made it. If even 1% of the orcs disappeared, who'd notice in a horde of tens of thousands? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 20:39:33
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I think teleportation is instantaneous, and is like 'hacking' the universe itself. You're basically tricking the universe into thinking something is in the wrong place, and it 'shunts it' into what it thinks is the correct space (and BTW, I think this is entirely possible, using electromagnetic fields). You can't 'look through' a teleport - it just doesn't work that way - its more like a Star Trek style transport (so there is possibly a few seconds in which you are 'in transport', but thats it).
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side. This is a totally different type of (magi-)tech - you are 'folding space' (like a wormhole) and connecting two points. Transitive planes (which are actually dimensions) work in much this manner - (nearly) all dimensions overlap, but some are physically smaller than others. We've seen this in a few novels when people used them to fast-travel (in the Moonshae novels they did this with Faerie, and in other novels - most notably the RotAW - we see them do this with the Plane of Shadow). Permanent portals/Gates probably access some mostly unknown dimension that is super-tiny (the first dimension? It should be only a single point in Time & Space). Thus, thousands of miles only pass through an angstrom unit of space in that dimension, so its like its not even there at all (just an impossibly small 'film' between locations). When you create gates to other worlds, thats even easier - you are just 'punching a hole' between the 'veil' that separates the worlds. Its the same physical location - you are just piercing another quantum reality (D&D is tricky - this is only true of some worlds; most D&D worlds exist within the same dimension, just removed physically in other Crystal Spheres).
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
[quote] Unfortunately, you will run into these problems from time to time if you think too hard about things. Another option is to make magic rarer--the more common magic is, the bigger the problem it represents.
That's kind of how it used to work.
The madness with magic spammed to Netheril level and beyond (while pretending it's all still quasi-medieval) started only in Diablo Edition.
I assume you mean 4e?
It actually began in 3e, and even with all the love I have for that edition, it did make quite a few mistakes. In FR, it dropped the 'uncertain 3rd person' and opted for the omnipotent 1st person person approach to the lore (which completely nukes any ability to go back in and adjust inconsistencies), and in regards to D&D and the rules themselves, Players were given EVERYTHING. In 1e/2e, there were always things (like magical devices) that players simply could NOT make themselves. You could introduce any sort of weird effect or magic, etc, and didn't need to explain it. 3e rules were like an albatross hanging abut a DM's neck; they not only tied the DM's hands, they also gave way too much power to the players, who suddenly could question everything the DM did (NOT IMG, BTW).
That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special. You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played. Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?" Unfortunately, that stripped-away nearly all sense of accomplishment. The only thing you could brag about in 3e (and editions moving forward) was your 'power level', and it became all about 'builds', and power-gaming (what we used to call 'min-maxing' back in 2e).
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
 {I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2016 21:13:43 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:11:24
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As far as trade, there do exist established teleportation/gate based shipping methods in the realms (from previously printed lore). The most recent I remember specifics on I believe was called Weatherstone Mercantile. As mentioned before, there are risks and it is very expensive - this makes it MUCH more cost effective to ship in traditional methods. Like normal shipping, the bigger the cargo the higher the price, and specialty items have specialty prices.
PS - totally with Markustay on the effects of 3rd E on magic... its less magical now, I guess :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:16:17
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The Assam Portal is another I found recently - a nice bit of lore to go with it; I like how the author 'nerfed' it with the one-way thing. It could help with trade, but its an 'imperfect' solution.
EDIT: The Kara-Tur 'Sea Portal' in the Dragonmere I feel is a MAJOR headache - its two-way, and Cormyr should have seized its end of it (Shou Lung apparently controls BOTH ends, which means they maintain a presence... IN THE DRAGONMERE!) 
EDIT2:
On the other hand, the Spellplague and The Sundering (pt.II) could have made a mess of all of them, in all sorts of fun ways (rewired their connections? Got them all scrambled? What JOY!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Dec 2016 21:24:48 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 21:55:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's the kind of shenanigan that results in very pissed off PCs. Inconveniencing them is one thing, arbitrarily and permanently taking their loot away is another.
...
Maybe this could work as a one-off for an NPC to suddenly get some nifty stuff -- but I'd not do that to PCs. Especially since I love bags of holding and tend to try to get them for my characters.
And that's how the cycle of "too convenient" starts.
For another baseline, compare this to all other extradimensional interfaces being explosively incompatible. 
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
I started this post several times and just failed to have the time to properly make a statement so, please, forgive this hasty scrawl. I thought that highly magical civilizations DID actually do mass teleportations, portals, and gates of people, armies, and other things, like when Illusk evacuated its population with the help of Netherese Arcanists
According to Netheril: Empire of Magic, the enclaves did use gates routinely.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side.
Can't remember many of that in canon, and Ed posted that there's supposed to be away/in-between stage.
quote:
I assume you mean 4e?
It actually began in 3e,
I mean 3e, there was an actual book - Diablo II: Diablerie.
Okay, TBH, there was also one back in AD&D2, but you'd have to go full I.U.D.C. for comparable look&feel when magic is involved, what's with easily interrupted spellcasting and excess of "save or die". Though "I hit it again with mah sword", maybe.
quote:
In 1e/2e, there were always things (like magical devices) that players simply could NOT make themselves. You could introduce any sort of weird effect or magic, etc, and didn't need to explain it. 3e rules were like an albatross hanging abut a DM's neck; they not only tied the DM's hands, they also gave way too much power to the players, who suddenly could question everything the DM did (NOT IMG, BTW).
Yes, but the first half here is applying this very approach retroactively. In that "No readily available way" =/= "no way". If most of the Really Cool Stuff requires whole quests, that's fine.
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That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special.
This particular argument was seen almost exclusively when someone tries to smuggle something past Sanderson’s First Law of Magic.
As item crafting goes, for example, detailed Volo's Guide approach looks fine to me. In that it gives more specific step-by-step, but they add to the amount of things-to-do rather than detract.
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You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played.
Technically, not necessarily so - often you could use this as guidelines / bones for the same approach. As in, interpret it as the crafter cannot get away with a pile of "20000 GP", but needs 20000 GP worth of specific components, most of which needs to be discovered and procured, rather than being readily available.
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Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?"
It's in part GMing style.
But practically, yes, 3.x assumes MUD Magic-Mart to the point of integrating it in game balance mechanisms - e.g. CR is dependent on the party at given levels being able to beat certain damage resistance, but not the other).
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{I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning}
Eyh, you got your grognard cred to maintain, all right. Don't we all.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2016 : 22:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gates/Portals operate differently (and they had those in ST as well) - many of them you can look-through and see whats on the other side.
Can't remember many of that in canon, and Ed posted that there's supposed to be away/in-between stage.
Quite so - MY BAD. 
I have so many things going on in my head at once, i even contradicted myself.
I think there is teleportation, which is its 'own thing' (and as I said earlier, like 'hacking' the universe itself).
And then there are Gates/Portals, and there are (at least) two kinds. You know, we have two different names for them... who used 'Gates'? Ed? Then I would assign that to the more 'common' (if such things could even be called common) FR portal, which most-likely utilizes the Road of Stars and Shadows, and does have an 'in-between' space you must navigate through.
And then maybe use 'Portals' for the Imaskari-style 'wormhole' variety, where you literally fold-space so two points meet (not all of them would be 'see through', BTW - I imagine quite a few looked - and worked - very much like Stargates). Perhaps the 'see through' affect was artifact-level. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jan 2017 16:14:24 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2017 : 12:46:48
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I have dealt with this and many other magic related problem just by stating that there are no generic magic items/spells. All of those known items and spells are examples of working items/spells that somebody invented/created in some area and definite numbers. So there is commonly known spell of Magic Missile in Western Faerun but in the East they use Iomon's invisible dart (with similar effects) or Llaroch's minor drain (popular in Thay). There are teleportation circle spells but they are definitely not widely known and there would be a huge difference between spell and permanent gate/portal. You could try to create such portal but it will be very costly to invent and even then there is no guarantee it will be without errors or specifics (it only operates in moonlight of the full moon). There are some relicts of old ages like Imaskari portal built for Northern mercenaries (Raumathar) but it is keyed to the Warleader's sword that characters had to find in order to use this portal (adventure).
Point for me is to make magic special and unique not generic and available as presented in newer editions. This stops almost all player's tendencies to exploit it and in case they do it is a reward for clever use of found resources. |
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