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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 03:27:05
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I have this idea to use Manshoon as a primary antagonist in my new Forgotten Realms campaign. However, I'd like to use one of his clones. I know at least three survived the "Manshoon purge" and one is serving the Zentarim (according to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). The campaign I have in mind is not the Northern Journey campaign (however well written that one was).
I'm planning on planting a surviving clone in Calimshan. And have him serve the Pasha as an advisor. I want to start the heroes in Amn, and eventually moving south to deal with Manshoon himself. The reason why I'd like to use Manshoon because mostly I think he makes a better villain than Fzoul Chembyrl.
Thoughts?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11943 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 13:06:52
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If you don't have a specific reason for it to be Manshoon and just want a villain that's better than Fzoul, I'd vote to just make a powerful mage servitor to the pasha. That's just my personal opinion, because using Manshoon should entail a bit more motive that fits with the goals of Manshoon (and being a servant of a pasha doesn't really fit his ego in my view, unless you build up some reason that the pasha has control over him).
Or to put it another way... what's the gain? If its for some AHA moment with the players, will they REALLY be impressed that its Manshoon? Some may groan at that, whereas others may just look at you like "who?". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Feb 2025 13:08:22 |
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Alberto_Magnus
Acolyte
Italy
17 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 18:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you don't have a specific reason for it to be Manshoon and just want a villain that's better than Fzoul, I'd vote to just make a powerful mage servitor to the pasha. That's just my personal opinion, because using Manshoon should entail a bit more motive that fits with the goals of Manshoon (and being a servant of a pasha doesn't really fit his ego in my view, unless you build up some reason that the pasha has control over him).
Or to put it another way... what's the gain? If its for some AHA moment with the players, will they REALLY be impressed that its Manshoon? Some may groan at that, whereas others may just look at you like "who?".
Yes I second that.
Especially because once only three clones remain, they would be extra careful. Even when the "original" Manshoon had plenty of clones in the mid 14th century DR Elminster was able to sneak under his nose and ruin a couple.
He can't have forgotten that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2025 : 00:53:31
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Point: only three Manshoon clones were known to remain in the Realms -- but the whole "gotta kill them all!" thing could be circumvented by going elsewhere, which we know some clones did, or by becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone. The latter option means changing his form would get around that compulsion. So Womanshoon or Elfshoon or the Shou wizard Xian Moon or any of a lot of other options would remain.
And given what some of the clones did, it's possible that any remaining former Manshoons have decided to pursue new goals.
Just a reminder, from Cloak & Dagger: "In trade for numerous secret spells privy only to him and his Zhentarim, Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of many wizards such as Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyrth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviir of Sshamath, and the Simbul (a fact she keeps secret from even the most trusted of her apprentices!)."
That last one, in particular, is interesting -- the Simbul would have no reason to trust Manny and a better idea than most of what he had done, but she still gave him sanctuary. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Feb 2025 00:54:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2025 : 00:57:06
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| (also, it's weird talking about a character like Manshoon... "Well, three of him are here, one is there, another him did this thing, this other him opened a bed and breakfast, several of him died...") |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2025 : 11:22:27
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| The Simbul evidently follows "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11943 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2025 : 13:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
The Simbul evidently follows "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."
Or someone stuck a helm of opposite alignment on a sleeping clone and walked away. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2025 : 17:12:21
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| Hi Sleyvas, Occam's Razor applies here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11943 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 13:24:35
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| Yeah, I just like to point out something that we were saying on another thread. Sometimes convoluted makes for a really interesting twist. Its not necessarily to everyone's taste, and players often won't get the ins and outs of the story... but its fun for the DM, and sometimes that has to be inserted even if noone else ever knows. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 15:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That last one, in particular, is interesting -- the Simbul would have no reason to trust Manny and a better idea than most of what he had done, but she still gave him sanctuary.
Why? Manshoon is not stupid enough to try and backstab her outright or steal something and run. He is out of his position as the head of Zhentarim, most likely for good. This keeps him out of entanglements with other dangerous people. And cooperating with her gives him a chance to harm at least some common enemies (including Red Wizards), even if indirectly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 16:54:09
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You miss my point. I don't see any reason for the Simbul to offer sanctuary to an evil wizard who has caused a lot of deaths and suffering for his own ambitions, especially an evil wizard who has tried to kill her lover and spurned her goddess.
Also, just because Manshoon is no longer in a position of power now, it doesn't mean he won't try for another position of power in the future, and it doesn't erase his past deeds. It's unreasonable to assume Manshoon's enemies were only enemies because of his position, and it's equally unreasonable to assume no one would want revenge against him. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Epyon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2025 : 11:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You miss my point. I don't see any reason for the Simbul to offer sanctuary to an evil wizard who has caused a lot of deaths and suffering for his own ambitions, especially an evil wizard who has tried to kill her lover and spurned her goddess.
Also, just because Manshoon is no longer in a position of power now, it doesn't mean he won't try for another position of power in the future, and it doesn't erase his past deeds. It's unreasonable to assume Manshoon's enemies were only enemies because of his position, and it's equally unreasonable to assume no one would want revenge against him.
Well evidently Halaster was the only host accomodating enough in canon for their Manshoon to survive till the Spellplague, so Simbul probably saw better of the experiment before long. |
Roger |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1869 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2025 : 15:27:56
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| My guess is the Simbul gave him sanctuary because Mystra required it and/or there is something in it for her (or Aglarond). The Chosen play the LONG game, a game that she and Elminster excel at. Mystra has had her eye on Manshoon for some time now. One story actually had him finally agree to work with her on a nominal basis, but I can't remember which. I believe it was in one of the last Elminster books, the one where he didn't actually have a body or maybe soon thereafter. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2025 : 21:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Epyon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You miss my point. I don't see any reason for the Simbul to offer sanctuary to an evil wizard who has caused a lot of deaths and suffering for his own ambitions, especially an evil wizard who has tried to kill her lover and spurned her goddess.
Also, just because Manshoon is no longer in a position of power now, it doesn't mean he won't try for another position of power in the future, and it doesn't erase his past deeds. It's unreasonable to assume Manshoon's enemies were only enemies because of his position, and it's equally unreasonable to assume no one would want revenge against him.
Well evidently Halaster was the only host accomodating enough in canon for their Manshoon to survive till the Spellplague, so Simbul probably saw better of the experiment before long.
Actually, we don't have information for either of those points. The Manshoon hanging in Aglarond could have left for his own reasons, or maybe he's still there in some other form. And while it's reasonable to assume that the maimed Manshoon was the same one that sought sanctuary in Undermountain, we're also talking about an entire century passing -- it's quite possible that the first Manshoon in Undermountain left (or was destroyed, or became something else, etc..), and that Maimshoon was a newcomer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2025 : 21:50:06
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All of you made some good points, even if you went on a tangent talking about the different Manshoons. 
All of your points are valid, but I'd still like to use him as an antagonist. He was used intelligently in the Northern Journeys campaign. So, I still would like to use him, or one of his clones. All of you have given something for me to think about how to use him. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1869 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2025 : 01:46:44
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Fair enough. I posted without actually answering your query. Here's what I'd do:
I make it a 4th 'unknown' clone. One that pretty much avoided the Clone Wars entirely.
Since the clones need to be altered in some way, I'd make him a lycan of some sort. Perhaps a weredragon. Manshoon was known to have a black dragon under his heel, so perhaps he was working on a means of transforming into one and this clone, knowing of the research, quickly acted to make the change to avoid the massacres of the other clones.
He'd be an advisor only in name. Manshoon should actually be in control, IMO, but can do it secretly. Even the pasha may not know who he truly is.
So, there's also a tie between ManSHOON and Shoon VII (he's a descendant, you'll have to ask another scribe for a link to that info, Ed clarified this somewhere). Shoon VII is the creator of the Tome of the Unicorn. During the Time of Troubles, he escaped the tome (he was a demilich with an extraplanar dimension tied to the book) and he soul was transferred into a elven female named Zallanora (she's now a demilich).
What I'm getting at is there could be some interaction between she-Shoon and Manshoon. Most likely as rivals. Manshoon is the power behind the throne, and Shoon could be doing gods know what to throw a wrench in your campaign. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 17 Feb 2025 01:52:16 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1869 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 19:59:00
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| Just to note, I'm not sure which Shoon Manshoon is descended from as it could have been any of them. I THINK it was Shoon VII. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Epyon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 21:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Epyon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You miss my point. I don't see any reason for the Simbul to offer sanctuary to an evil wizard who has caused a lot of deaths and suffering for his own ambitions, especially an evil wizard who has tried to kill her lover and spurned her goddess.
Also, just because Manshoon is no longer in a position of power now, it doesn't mean he won't try for another position of power in the future, and it doesn't erase his past deeds. It's unreasonable to assume Manshoon's enemies were only enemies because of his position, and it's equally unreasonable to assume no one would want revenge against him.
Well evidently Halaster was the only host accomodating enough in canon for their Manshoon to survive till the Spellplague, so Simbul probably saw better of the experiment before long.
Actually, we don't have information for either of those points. The Manshoon hanging in Aglarond could have left for his own reasons, or maybe he's still there in some other form. And while it's reasonable to assume that the maimed Manshoon was the same one that sought sanctuary in Undermountain, we're also talking about an entire century passing -- it's quite possible that the first Manshoon in Undermountain left (or was destroyed, or became something else, etc..), and that Maimshoon was a newcomer.
The Manshoon in the Undermountain died in the Spellplague according to Ed Greenwood but was already one of the last three Manshoons left in Faerun by that point (Westgate vampire Manshoon and Fzoul's good faith hostage in Zhentil Keep being the other two). Though it is indeed an option that the Manshoon in Simbul's care just moved on and was one of the ones that left Faerun entirely before the Spellplague. He could have even come after that and be the Manshoon now at Kolat Towers or Darkhold. |
Roger |
Edited by - Epyon on 18 Feb 2025 21:31:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 22:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Since the clones need to be altered in some way, I'd make him a lycan of some sort. Perhaps a weredragon. Manshoon was known to have a black dragon under his heel, so perhaps he was working on a means of transforming into one and this clone, knowing of the research, quickly acted to make the change to avoid the massacres of the other clones.
Manshoon knows how to turn into a black dragon. That's how he got one pregnant. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36855 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 22:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Just to note, I'm not sure which Shoon Manshoon is descended from as it could have been any of them. I THINK it was Shoon VII.
None of them. Per Ed, Manshoon is not descended from the Shoon dynasty. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11943 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 23:35:45
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I heard one of the Manshoon clones was turned into a blueflame ghost by Larloch's Imprisoners. The magic item that he was placed into was supposedly a coin purse.
source: Fibian Lyslander of Samarach |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 23:48:34
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| I wonder what would have happened if Elminster fed that coin purse for the Simbul to regain her sanity. Sleyvas has pressed my "Mischief Button." |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2025 : 23:50:36
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| All Blueflame jokes aside, has anyone made a homebrew story about what happened to Manshoon Prime after the events of Cloak and Dagger? I will not hold my breath for WoTC to follow up on that thread. |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2025 : 00:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
All Blueflame jokes aside, has anyone made a homebrew story about what happened to Manshoon Prime after the events of Cloak and Dagger? I will not hold my breath for WoTC to follow up on that thread.
I could. |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1018 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2025 : 18:51:23
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| Manshoon Prime was a textbook Missed Opportunity. |
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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2025 : 21:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Manshoon Prime was a textbook Missed Opportunity.
Yes. He was. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1869 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2025 : 03:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Just to note, I'm not sure which Shoon Manshoon is descended from as it could have been any of them. I THINK it was Shoon VII.
None of them. Per Ed, Manshoon is not descended from the Shoon dynasty.
This is what happens when one doesn't get to play or run a game in a proper Realms campaign for years...your memory starts to get mixed up. Do you have a link to Ed's info? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Epyon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
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Manshoon the Great!
