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EltonRobb
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 03:27:05
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I have this idea to use Manshoon as a primary antagonist in my new Forgotten Realms campaign. However, I'd like to use one of his clones. I know at least three survived the "Manshoon purge" and one is serving the Zentarim (according to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting). The campaign I have in mind is not the Northern Journey campaign (however well written that one was).
I'm planning on planting a surviving clone in Calimshan. And have him serve the Pasha as an advisor. I want to start the heroes in Amn, and eventually moving south to deal with Manshoon himself. The reason why I'd like to use Manshoon because mostly I think he makes a better villain than Fzoul Chembyrl.
Thoughts?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 13:06:52
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If you don't have a specific reason for it to be Manshoon and just want a villain that's better than Fzoul, I'd vote to just make a powerful mage servitor to the pasha. That's just my personal opinion, because using Manshoon should entail a bit more motive that fits with the goals of Manshoon (and being a servant of a pasha doesn't really fit his ego in my view, unless you build up some reason that the pasha has control over him).
Or to put it another way... what's the gain? If its for some AHA moment with the players, will they REALLY be impressed that its Manshoon? Some may groan at that, whereas others may just look at you like "who?". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Feb 2025 13:08:22 |
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Alberto_Magnus
Acolyte
Italy
9 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2025 : 18:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you don't have a specific reason for it to be Manshoon and just want a villain that's better than Fzoul, I'd vote to just make a powerful mage servitor to the pasha. That's just my personal opinion, because using Manshoon should entail a bit more motive that fits with the goals of Manshoon (and being a servant of a pasha doesn't really fit his ego in my view, unless you build up some reason that the pasha has control over him).
Or to put it another way... what's the gain? If its for some AHA moment with the players, will they REALLY be impressed that its Manshoon? Some may groan at that, whereas others may just look at you like "who?".
Yes I second that.
Especially because once only three clones remain, they would be extra careful. Even when the "original" Manshoon had plenty of clones in the mid 14th century DR Elminster was able to sneak under his nose and ruin a couple.
He can't have forgotten that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2025 : 00:53:31
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Point: only three Manshoon clones were known to remain in the Realms -- but the whole "gotta kill them all!" thing could be circumvented by going elsewhere, which we know some clones did, or by becoming something other than a living Manshoon clone. The latter option means changing his form would get around that compulsion. So Womanshoon or Elfshoon or the Shou wizard Xian Moon or any of a lot of other options would remain.
And given what some of the clones did, it's possible that any remaining former Manshoons have decided to pursue new goals.
Just a reminder, from Cloak & Dagger: "In trade for numerous secret spells privy only to him and his Zhentarim, Manshoon (nine of him, to be precise) buys himself sanctuary in the company of many wizards such as Larloch the Lich-King, Vimal Craumerdaun of Eshpurta, Vynmarius of Athkatla, Vizar Mohad el Fisar of Manshaka, Tenaral of Amruthar, Vyrth of Darmshall, Halaster of Undermountain, Master of Mages Guldor Zauviir of Sshamath, and the Simbul (a fact she keeps secret from even the most trusted of her apprentices!)."
That last one, in particular, is interesting -- the Simbul would have no reason to trust Manny and a better idea than most of what he had done, but she still gave him sanctuary. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Feb 2025 00:54:43 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2025 : 00:57:06
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| (also, it's weird talking about a character like Manshoon... "Well, three of him are here, one is there, another him did this thing, this other him opened a bed and breakfast, several of him died...") |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1010 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2025 : 11:22:27
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| The Simbul evidently follows "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2025 : 13:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
The Simbul evidently follows "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."
Or someone stuck a helm of opposite alignment on a sleeping clone and walked away. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1010 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2025 : 17:12:21
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| Hi Sleyvas, Occam's Razor applies here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11927 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 13:24:35
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| Yeah, I just like to point out something that we were saying on another thread. Sometimes convoluted makes for a really interesting twist. Its not necessarily to everyone's taste, and players often won't get the ins and outs of the story... but its fun for the DM, and sometimes that has to be inserted even if noone else ever knows. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 15:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That last one, in particular, is interesting -- the Simbul would have no reason to trust Manny and a better idea than most of what he had done, but she still gave him sanctuary.
Why? Manshoon is not stupid enough to try and backstab her outright or steal something and run. He is out of his position as the head of Zhentarim, most likely for good. This keeps him out of entanglements with other dangerous people. And cooperating with her gives him a chance to harm at least some common enemies (including Red Wizards), even if indirectly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 16:54:09
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You miss my point. I don't see any reason for the Simbul to offer sanctuary to an evil wizard who has caused a lot of deaths and suffering for his own ambitions, especially an evil wizard who has tried to kill her lover and spurned her goddess.
Also, just because Manshoon is no longer in a position of power now, it doesn't mean he won't try for another position of power in the future, and it doesn't erase his past deeds. It's unreasonable to assume Manshoon's enemies were only enemies because of his position, and it's equally unreasonable to assume no one would want revenge against him. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Manshoon the Great!
