| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:08:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Uh, wanting?
Rupert? Read Lords of Darkness, too.
Nothing about wanting to be a master of portals in the 3e one, at least.
Agreed. And there is also the suggestion that he already knows all he needs to about portals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:17:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Also, Rupert, I sat down and actually did the math. He can know about the Lythari on a "1" on a D20. He's a 24th level 3.5 Character with the Lich Template. Assuming an INT of 17 at first level (Better than the Elite Array, I know, but I'm being nice because he's a master villain) that's 6 raises, that's 23. +5 Inherent bonus to INT from Wishes is 28. Headband of Intellect +6 is 34. Lich gives +2 INT, that's 36. That's +13 from INT. A maxed Knowledge Arcana check gives him 27 ranks and a +2 bonus from 5 ranks of Spellcraft. If a DC 43 check on a 1 isn't enough for you when it only takes a 25 Spellcraft DC to teleport around the underdark, it's perfectly understandable, but Lythari don't have that many hit dice. :)
The lythari are so reclusive that I'd not give him that high a chance to know about them... As I said earlier, the lythari are legendary to the elves who live in the same territory. Who outside of there is going to know about them? I'd only give him that 1 on a D20 if he was specifically studying the many different races of elves.
It doesn't matter how high his intelligence is, if there's little or no lore for him to learn, he's probably not going to learn it without specifically studying a closely-related area.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And why is this Knowledge: Arcana and not Knowledge: Nature? Because he needs to know about the portals, and he already (According to Lords of Darkness) has the ability to make them.
You're partially right: he does know how to make portals. So, already knowing all he needs to know about portals, why this insistence that he's going to try to learn about a form of portal that he has no knowledge of and that can give him no benefit?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Second: Why would he not try this strategy a second time? I can't see how an undead lich would really fear a bunch of elves with bows all that much. Baelnorns, he might fear, but he's obviously not a moron, he successfully kidnapped Halaster. (And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for those lousy adventurers.)
Why not try this strategy a second time? Because he already has the knowledge he needs. There is no point in him trying to learn yet another form of portal magic, especially one that has no practical applications for him or the Twisted Rune.
Oh yeah, and he did successfully kidnap Halaster... with the uses of multiple wishes. He can't pull off something like that again, not very easily.
And there's also the fact that Halaster will eventually move against the Frostrune, even he hasn't already put plans in motion to get his revenge... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:23:29
|
Well, let's see here.
If he already knows everything there is to know about Portals, he can make the check.
If he can make the check, he knows about them. Obviously, there has to be SOMETHING he wants on the other side of that gate (The ability to craft gates that Halaster himself can't detect, and possibly just the ability to make Khelben spit up at an enslaved army of dozens of beings with DR 10/Silver. Remember how many wishes he had to use to enact the first plan)
Oh, I actually made two errors. He's actually Level 27, which means his check is a minimum of 46, and his base INT is 18, which affects absolutely nothing, because that just makes it 37 instead of 36. Bad number, no biscuit. :) . (Ugh, that's pretty ridiculous) This makes his CR a whopping 29. Yicko. :)
That means if he rolls a 10, he gets a DC capable of casting epic spells. :) Double Yicko.
Second of all, Rupert, never assume that a Chaotic Evil genius is content with the knowledge that he has. They always want more. Look at the level of grand schemes that Raksek has attempted in the past. Raksek doesn't just want to be a council member of the Twisted Rune. He wants the whole Enchilada. He's a megalomaniac of the highest order.
If you have the Sythilissan Empire on the one side, and the Snowflake Mountains in which your lair resides to the West, the only thing standing in the way of total control of the entire area is those wood elves, the Lythari, and that forest. And if Raksek gets that, he might actually be able to challenge Rhangaun for leadership of the Twisted Rune. Plus, once he gets that, he can MARCH on Waterdeep, crush Khelben and the Lords once and for all, make bargains with the Orcs of the North to attack the city from the North, and his revenge will be complete. And quite frankly, if he was Lawful Evil, I would say "This is BS.' But he's not.
Raksek's big weakness is his megalomania. He tends to bite off more than he can chew. Hoepfully, he's done so here, or the PC's are dead. (They should be level 20 when they fight Raksek, if the campaign goes right. That places him at the top of the CR curve.)
(That battle looks like Raksek, Ralayn the Occultacle (Who I'll have to rebuild because I don't use Psionics), and two mature adult Shadow Dragons. (Nothing like giving an alhoon and a lich temporary hit points while your PC's gain negative levels...) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:24:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hm . . . I don't want to be contentious, but I don't picture lythari portals the same way as wizard portals. That's why earlier I mentioned that they seem more like fey crossroads to me, which are, for lack of a better, more erudite description, druid portals as opposed to wizard portals.
That's a very good point. Their ability to go to their home plane did seem more like using a crossroad... I'll have to go back and skim thru that novel again.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Even if Priamon knows of lythari, and knows they exist, that doesn't mean he knows about their ability to pop in and out of reality in different parts of Faerun. I can see him knowing what is written in their entry in Elves of Evermeet for example, which doesn't mention their portals at all. Knowing elves exist doesn't give you any knowlage of the elfgates that they use to get to the various elven kingdoms and ruins throught Faerun.
That's another good point. Even those that know a lot about elves aren't necessarily going to know about specific forms or expressions of elven magic...
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm not saying its not possible, and it may work great for your campaign. I would just come up with some more justification for how he has found out about them and why they have peaked his interest. But that's just me.
Indeed. It could work, if the motivation was there. But I don't see any possible reason for the Frostrune to even think of the lythari.
There are a couple of Runemasters that are left undetailed. Perhaps one of them could be an elven or half-elven lich, one who does know of the lythari and their ability to slip back and forth between their home plane and the Prime Material. This Runemaster could be making a powerplay of his own, hoping that the lythari methods could be modified into a form useful to the Rune. This would give him leverage against Priamon... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 17:37:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Well, let's see here.
If he already knows everything there is to know about Portals, he can make the check.
I see no reason to assume that the knowledge of lythari portals is held by any non-lythari or non-Elven High Mages.
Again, it doesn't matter how smart he is, there is no reason to assume he knows anything about the lythari -- not even their existence, much less their magic.
Heck, look at the novel Silver Shadows. That former Zhent (his name escapes me at the moment) was there specifically to exterminate the elves. And he had no knowledge of the lythari... Why should we assume any different for anyone else?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
If he can make the check, he knows about them. Obviously, there has to be SOMETHING he wants on the other side of that gate (The ability to craft gates that Halaster himself can't detect, and possibly just the ability to make Khelben spit up at an enslaved army of dozens of beings with DR 10/Silver. Remember how many wishes he had to use to enact the first plan)
Who says Halaster can't detect them? And dozens isn't exactly an army... And lastly, on the other side of the lythari portals is their home world. What could he want there?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Oh, I actually made two errors. He's actually Level 27, which means his check is a minimum of 46, and his base INT is 18, which affects absolutely nothing, because that just makes it 37 instead of 36. Bad number, no biscuit. :) . (Ugh, that's pretty ridiculous) This makes his CR a whopping 29. Yicko. :)
That means if he rolls a 10, he gets a DC capable of casting epic spells. :) Double Yicko.
Again, this has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Being smart does not mean you automatically have certain bits of knowledge, especially particularly esoteric bits of knowledge.
Heck, if he knew about lythari portals, and they were undetectable by Halaster (again, no evidence of that fact), then he would have gone for those first, and then used them against Halaster. Since he did not do that, then it's pretty obvious he knows nothing of them.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Second of all, Rupert, never assume that a Chaotic Evil genius is content with the knowledge that he has. They always want more. Look at the level of grand schemes that Raksek has attempted in the past. Raksek doesn't just want to be a council member of the Twisted Rune. He wants the whole Enchilada. He's a megalomaniac of the highest order.
I never said he was content with his knowledge. What I did say is that he knows all he needs to about portals. He's more likely to refine his existing knowledge than he is to try to learn something new and useless.
And this knowledge is useless to him. The ability to go to the lythari home plane gives him absolutely nothing. There is no benefit in it for him or for the Rune.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
If you have the Sythilissan Empire on the one side, and the Snowflake Mountains in which your lair resides to the West, the only thing standing in the way of total control of the entire area is those wood elves, the Lythari, and that forest. And if Raksek gets that, he might actually be able to challenge Rhangaun for leadership of the Twisted Rune. Plus, once he gets that, he can MARCH on Waterdeep, crush Khelben and the Lords once and for all, make bargains with the Orcs of the North to attack the city from the North, and his revenge will be complete. And quite frankly, if he was Lawful Evil, I would say "This is BS.' But he's not.
*blinks* With knowledge of portals and how to construct them, why bother marching anywhere? He doesn't need to control the area in between, and doing so would in fact weaken his army -- lines of supply and communication and all that. With portals, he could put an army outside Blackstaff Tower and Piergeiron's Palace at his leisure -- there's no need to waste time crossing the territory in between.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Raksek's big weakness is his megalomania. He tends to bite off more than he can chew. Hoepfully, he's done so here, or the PC's are dead. (They should be level 20 when they fight Raksek, if the campaign goes right. That places him at the top of the CR curve.)
Again, I see nothing here to indicate any knowledge of lythari or their magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 18:07:35
|
I would also wonder, if the lythari portals work the way they seem to, and it is more like a fey crossroads than a portal . . . would they even open for a non lythari even if you were standing right on top of one? Also, Faerie is a strange place for anyone not used to it. If you get lost and stray out of the "border Faerie" you could easily spend a few centuries wandering around and not knowing how long you were lost. Not to mention I would assume that a few lythari sorcerers or druids would also be vigilant against anyone that could come through unannounced.
Just a few more things to ponder. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 18:38:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I would also wonder, if the lythari portals work the way they seem to, and it is more like a fey crossroads than a portal . . . would they even open for a non lythari even if you were standing right on top of one? Also, Faerie is a strange place for anyone not used to it. If you get lost and stray out of the "border Faerie" you could easily spend a few centuries wandering around and not knowing how long you were lost. Not to mention I would assume that a few lythari sorcerers or druids would also be vigilant against anyone that could come through unannounced.
Just a few more things to ponder.
The fact that Arilyn had to ride Ganymede to go thru one indicates that their use is limited to lythari. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 01:36:14
|
Re: portalling in armies outside Blackstaff Tower or Piergerion's Palace....
Even if there weren't other defenses long ago set by Khelben the Elder and his student Ahghairon, there's another simple tactic not used since the last Troll War that breached the city walls: There's nothing limiting the master of Arunsun/Blackstaff Tower from manifesting a Walking Statue laterally instead of vertically about 10 feet above ground and letting him squish a 90 foot wide path through the lines..... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 03:45:07
|
I would like to point out, Rupert, that you seem to be failing to understand the basic concept of what constitutes an epic check. It only takes like a DC 25 to teleport around the Underdark.
Even if you set the DC at a truly absurd 50, Raksek would STILL make that check over 50 percent of the time. And DC 50 is "What Mystra Eats For Breakfast on Thursday"
To make a campaign work, if you need the villain to make a knowledge check, he makes the check. :) It just happens that in this particular case, Raksek isn't low level enough for it to be an issue.
Besides, a portal that a portal master can't use? I'd capture them to tap them for blood so me and my twisted rune buddies COULD use the portals. Nothing irritates these big ego megalomaniac guys like something they SHOULD be able to do but can't.
Granted, Raksek keys his portals to undead beings, and if you happen not to be undead, oh well, suck traps and monsters, but let the PC's suffer that if they're crazy enough to follow him.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 04:40:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I would like to point out, Rupert, that you seem to be failing to understand the basic concept of what constitutes an epic check. It only takes like a DC 25 to teleport around the Underdark.
Even if you set the DC at a truly absurd 50, Raksek would STILL make that check over 50 percent of the time. And DC 50 is "What Mystra Eats For Breakfast on Thursday"
To make a campaign work, if you need the villain to make a knowledge check, he makes the check. :) It just happens that in this particular case, Raksek isn't low level enough for it to be an issue.
I don't care what the numbers are. If knowledge is simply not available, then it cannot be learned.
And I'm not looking at this from the point of numbers. I couldn't care less about the rules. I am looking at it from the standpoint of the existing lore. I am applying logic to that lore.
Next to no one even knows the lythari exist. The only folk that do are the elves of the Wealdath, and to them, they are legends. Now, if the only folk who have ever been known to interact with the lythari know very little about them, how is some undead guy miles away from there, who's never been to the Wealdath or spoken to an elf, going to know the most intimate secrets of the lythari?
Roll the dice all you want, at whatever DC you choose. Logically speaking, there is no possible way for the Frostrune to know of lythari magic. And lore and logic should always overrule dice.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Besides, a portal that a portal master can't use? I'd capture them to tap them for blood so me and my twisted rune buddies COULD use the portals. Nothing irritates these big ego megalomaniac guys like something they SHOULD be able to do but can't.
You still haven't said what these guys could do with the lythari portals. What are they going to do on the lythari home plane?
And yes, there could be portals a portal master can't use. There is magic that not all beings can use, so why can't there be an application of magic not usable by all folk?
Taking that one step further -- these guys are mages. They have a better chance of knowing about Elven High Magic. Why aren't they trying to grab the secrets of that? Sure, it's limited to elves, but by your logic, that's no reason for these guys to not try to learn it.
I simply don't understand why you are so convinced that the Frostrune would go after the lythari... There is nothing in existing Realmslore to support this. I can't even justify it by extrapolating existing lore... It simply doesn't work.
Now if you, as I suggested earlier, used an undead elf or half-elf, and gave them a reasonable (and being high INT is not explanation enough) way for knowing about the lythari, then I could see it. But not with the Frostrune. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Nov 2005 04:42:16 |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 07:02:07
|
You're talking to the wrong person when you make a statement like that. Here's why, Rupert. And it really is THIS simple.
Player: But I have a Knowledge: Arcana check of X. Why can't I know this.
DM: Because you can't, and I say so.
Player: But the rules say X.
DM: I'm overruling this. You can't know this.
Do this enough times, and you will lose your entire playerbase.
It all boils down to a simple rule. If the PC's can do it, the NPC's can do it too. If your players want to have the checks mean that much, then that means that the NPCs can do it also.
What you're also telling me is this:
Being above 11th level and becoming legendary means nothing, because legendary things (Lythari, the true identity of the killer of Roungouze Haballanter, Elminster's Underpants) are subject to this wonderful spell called Legend Lore.
You don't want to play the game. You want to play the lore. Now, that's fine, but once you start doing things like that, there's this wonderful thing called a circumstance penalty.
Now, Lythari aren't as obscure as you make them out to be, because of Cunningham's novels, and they're not as great a secret as you seem to think they are.
Two, if I were a senior member of the Twisted Rune, I'd want access to EVERY, and I mean EVERY form of ancient Seldarine magic I could lay my grubby little hands on.
Three, the reason I'm convinced is because Raksek is the ONLY one with the skills and location necessary to liason with the Sythilissan Empire. The others could do it, but most of them are based closer to Calimshan. Now, if I'm a conquest minded ogre mage...and I'm pretty sure there are two of them in charge, the Wealdath represents a significant military problem for their capital city, Murann. Now, unless you have the tactical sense of a rock, your two biggest problems are an attack by Sea from Amn, and an attack by land from Tethyr. Now, if Tethyr makes an alliance with the elves of the Wealdath, you're screwed. It doesn't take a tactical genius to see that every trade route you try to open will be sniped by Elven Rangers.
Logical Military Solution, since you are evil and not an ecofreak.
Burn the forest down. Destroy the elves. Eat the elves. There aren't enough of them to mount a powerful defense against this level of military threat, and even if they flee into the woods, after their previous treatment at the hands of the Tethyrians, loggers, greedy wizards, and other human depradations, their chances of getting help are slim.
Threat neutralized.
Unless you have adventurers...:)
You love to talk about the character, but you don't talk about the INTELLIGENCE of the character. The problem with the Twisted Rune is this: They're ALL evil geniuses. Now, Evil Geniuses have this way of pointing out problems, and then trying to get what they want out of it.
We already KNOW that the Rune is backing the Empire. I'm just choosing Raksek because 1) He's one of the weaker ones. 2) He has the best motivation out of all of them. Rhangaun? Sorry. I'm not merciless enough to set a CR 35 creature up against my PC's. Sapphirkatar? No thanks. My campaign has seen enough dracoliches to throw monkeys in the PC's way and it will be more unique. 3) Unlike the other Runemasters, Priamon wants it all, and knows that he needs the power to do so. It's a risky gambit, but then again...Chaotic Evil, not Lawful Evil. 4) The tiefling has no significant motivation in this regard.
I have no idea how you can say "It's out of character" for a guy who belongs to an Evil Secret Organization. The organization runs things. He's just the tip of the tactical iceberg.
The worst part is, your example has no motivational function other than to undo six months of work. That's the part that annoys me most. I think it's perfectly in character for anyone as powerful as Raksek to try and subjugate more beings, motivate the Sythilissan Empire to expand in the name of the Rune (But really, for him), and to acquire information about something he knows about but can't understand or make work for him. That's what Chaotic Evil means. |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 07:13:32
|
Plus, the logical choice for something like what you're suggesting is Gold Elf Lich.
With the same stats, abilities, gear and general CR range, that's an INT 39 (Gold Elf +2 INT (20), Lich +2 INT (22), 6 Raises (28), Headband of Intellect +6 (34), +5 Inherent Bonus. That is...just flat out ridiculous. Save DC's should not start at 29 for a 0 level spell. Once you do that, the PC's are DEAD.
Elf Lich is broken in the first place, because you take a creature with a Con penalty, give it a Con score of --, and then give it d12 hit points.
You can say "I don't believe it's in character for this NPC to do this." But don't suggest something which is even more broken on paper to do the same job. :)
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 11:40:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You're talking to the wrong person when you make a statement like that. Here's why, Rupert. And it really is THIS simple.
Player: But I have a Knowledge: Arcana check of X. Why can't I know this.
DM: Because you can't, and I say so.
Player: But the rules say X.
DM: I'm overruling this. You can't know this.
Do this enough times, and you will lose your entire playerbase.
It all boils down to a simple rule. If the PC's can do it, the NPC's can do it too. If your players want to have the checks mean that much, then that means that the NPCs can do it also.
You should not lose players for sticking to the lore. If players are willing to leave the game because they can't get their way, then let them.
As I said already, logic and lore should always trump the rules.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
What you're also telling me is this:
Being above 11th level and becoming legendary means nothing, because legendary things (Lythari, the true identity of the killer of Roungouze Haballanter, Elminster's Underpants) are subject to this wonderful spell called Legend Lore.
Where did I say this?
Sure, he could use the Legend Lore spell -- if he knew to even ask about the lythari. But you've given no logical way for him to know about them!
Using your analogy about "he's smart, so he can know this" you could say that if I was sufficiently smart, I could pick a random person in New York City, tell you whether or not they paid their last phone bill on time, how much it was, and what their ATM PIN is.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You don't want to play the game. You want to play the lore. Now, that's fine, but once you start doing things like that, there's this wonderful thing called a circumstance penalty.
Bingo! I want to stick to the lore! I'm not interested in the Realms because of the rules -- I'm into the lore of the setting. And the lore of the setting rules out your arguments.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Now, Lythari aren't as obscure as you make them out to be, because of Cunningham's novels, and they're not as great a secret as you seem to think they are.
Yeah, you're right. We all know Elaine is a bestseller in the Realms. The first printing of her last book sold out in three days in both Waterdeep and Silverymoon. 
Lythari are extremely rare. That's a given Realmslore fact.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Two, if I were a senior member of the Twisted Rune, I'd want access to EVERY, and I mean EVERY form of ancient Seldarine magic I could lay my grubby little hands on.
Three, the reason I'm convinced is because Raksek is the ONLY one with the skills and location necessary to liason with the Sythilissan Empire. The others could do it, but most of them are based closer to Calimshan. Now, if I'm a conquest minded ogre mage...and I'm pretty sure there are two of them in charge, the Wealdath represents a significant military problem for their capital city, Murann. Now, unless you have the tactical sense of a rock, your two biggest problems are an attack by Sea from Amn, and an attack by land from Tethyr. Now, if Tethyr makes an alliance with the elves of the Wealdath, you're screwed. It doesn't take a tactical genius to see that every trade route you try to open will be sniped by Elven Rangers.
Logical Military Solution, since you are evil and not an ecofreak.
Burn the forest down. Destroy the elves. Eat the elves. There aren't enough of them to mount a powerful defense against this level of military threat, and even if they flee into the woods, after their previous treatment at the hands of the Tethyrians, loggers, greedy wizards, and other human depradations, their chances of getting help are slim.
Threat neutralized.
Unless you have adventurers...:)
Yeah, that idea was so successful las time... And it has nothing to do with the current issue: the Frostrune has no way of knowing about the lythari or their magic. Let's stick to that topic.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You love to talk about the character, but you don't talk about the INTELLIGENCE of the character. The problem with the Twisted Rune is this: They're ALL evil geniuses. Now, Evil Geniuses have this way of pointing out problems, and then trying to get what they want out of it.
We already KNOW that the Rune is backing the Empire. I'm just choosing Raksek because 1) He's one of the weaker ones. 2) He has the best motivation out of all of them. Rhangaun? Sorry. I'm not merciless enough to set a CR 35 creature up against my PC's. Sapphirkatar? No thanks. My campaign has seen enough dracoliches to throw monkeys in the PC's way and it will be more unique. 3) Unlike the other Runemasters, Priamon wants it all, and knows that he needs the power to do so. It's a risky gambit, but then again...Chaotic Evil, not Lawful Evil. 4) The tiefling has no significant motivation in this regard.
The intelligence of any of them is not a factor. No matter how smart any of them are, they can't just arbitrarily have knowledge.
Why can't you make up your own Runemaster?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I have no idea how you can say "It's out of character" for a guy who belongs to an Evil Secret Organization. The organization runs things. He's just the tip of the tactical iceberg.
How can I say it's out of character? Easy, by looking at the character. I don't care who he hangs out with, he can't know about the lythari, and even if he did, there is nothing he can do with the knowledge of their magic.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
The worst part is, your example has no motivational function other than to undo six months of work. That's the part that annoys me most. I think it's perfectly in character for anyone as powerful as Raksek to try and subjugate more beings, motivate the Sythilissan Empire to expand in the name of the Rune (But really, for him), and to acquire information about something he knows about but can't understand or make work for him. That's what Chaotic Evil means.
My motivation is to make you see that you're ignoring lore in favor of a high dice roll.
And being CE doesn't mean you're going to waste time seeking knowledge you can't do anything with. Someone with all this intelligence you're trumpeting about would see that it was pointless and move on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 11:42:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Plus, the logical choice for something like what you're suggesting is Gold Elf Lich.
With the same stats, abilities, gear and general CR range, that's an INT 39 (Gold Elf +2 INT (20), Lich +2 INT (22), 6 Raises (28), Headband of Intellect +6 (34), +5 Inherent Bonus. That is...just flat out ridiculous. Save DC's should not start at 29 for a 0 level spell. Once you do that, the PC's are DEAD.
Elf Lich is broken in the first place, because you take a creature with a Con penalty, give it a Con score of --, and then give it d12 hit points.
You can say "I don't believe it's in character for this NPC to do this." But don't suggest something which is even more broken on paper to do the same job. :)
It would make more sense for an elf lich to know this than a human one to know it. And we know that elves can become undead, so I don't see how this is a problem. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 15:27:42
|
I agree with Wooly. msatran, have the grace to admit that you were wrong. if you still want to use the hook, Wooly has already explained how (make up a new Runemaster. As he said, we know there are others out there that haven't been defined.). But it make *no sense* for a relatively young human lich, interested in human matters, to know the most intimate secrets of the most secretive elven race on Faerun.
And even if he did, they're no threat to him, aren't interfering with his goals, and possess nothing that he can use. He has many plans of his own to advance, in areas that interest him, not to mention building and maintaining the Rune's network of portals (and looking over his shoulder for Halaster, if he's wise). He wouldn't waste valuable time and resources chasing after something he can't use. Especially if he runs the risk of bringing other elven groups (Evermeet, for instance) into the fight to aid the Lythari. A dozen High Mages will ruin any lich's day. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 19:31:30
|
Hoondatha, you are obviously in agreement with the idea that a high knowledge check means nothing.
Now, I'd like to point out to you that there's a serious issue here with the way Knowledge Skills work. The problem is, what you are suggesting is that the DM do this ALL THE TIME.
A BASE Lythari is a DC 20 Knowledge check. (15+ the base ECL of 5)
And you're telling me that characters with that high a knowledge arcana check can't make the roll?
Dude, there's a reason people TRAIN for levels. So they have access to the justification to have a knowledge score that high.
This issue is really less about the lore for me at this point than it is about being a good DM. And what you told me, flat out, was that "If the players don't like it, they can walk." Now, if the lore is more important to you than good dungeon mastery, then that ends our conversation right there, because obviously running a good game is less important to you than three paragraphs of information that clearly describe a power mad megalomaniac. And worse, he's obsessive beyond belief. This guy burned a RING OF MULTIPLE WISHES JUST TO GET TO ONE GUY! It doesn't matter if it's Halaster or Feergal Merthwaite the Expert 4 merchant with tons of bodyguards. He did this. That gives me far more insight into his personality than what he does or doesn't know.
Unlike the other runemasters, Raksek is a grandstanding psychopath. You don't pointlessly duplicate personalities in highly powerful evil cabals. The law of the economy of characters has to come into play here. The Realms has SO many high level wizards that many GMs take the attitude of "What's one more high level wizard, more or less?"
I try really hard not to do that.
Remember that there is this VERY important law that makes games function. It's called "The Law of the Economy of Characters." If you spontaneously introduce a new guy, and the only purpose of the NPC is to be killed, then you're no better than a common guy with a Dungeon Adventure in his hand.
You are really trying to force me to make a decision between running a good game and being faithful to the lore that is in your head, which is a jerky thing to do. I don't EVER admit I'm wrong, because quite frankly, at least in this case, the numbers bear it out. Even the mightiest Lythari in the world doesn't have enough levels for Raksek to fail that check. (He'd need 23+, and I don't think there are any that powerful)
Now, you can hide behind the lore, or you can try and play the game, and make the game fun. In fact, I'm going to be arrogant now. I'll put my money where my mouth is. I'll put my DMing skills on the line against yours. Play in my game. If you don't like it, THEN you can walk. :) Granted, you probably live nowhere close to Northern New Jersey, but at least I have the guts to rise to the challenge of "Admit you're wrong."
But the players ALWAYS have that right to walk.. It is the JOB of the Dungeon Master to create a challenge for his players. It is not the Job of the Dungeon Master to say "!@$!" them if they don't like my game. There has to be give and take. There always does. But when it comes to a debate like this, I'll never admit I'm wrong when I've been a DM for 26 years and for many of them run 3-5 games a week.
|
Edited by - msatran on 01 Nov 2005 19:36:10 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 20:09:57
|
Play the Neverwinter Nights free for download module "Crimson Tides of Tethyr". In it, your character has the opportunity to take down the Sythilissan Empire once and for all.
And not only that, it's an awesome, professional-quality module. You get to travel around Darromar, have fun adventures, and meet characters from Lands of Intrigue. Check it out!
http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=modules.Detail&id=4188 |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Nov 2005 20:13:15 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 22:45:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You are really trying to force me to make a decision between running a good game and being faithful to the lore that is in your head, which is a jerky thing to do.
Countless other DMs have run good games while staying faithful to the lore... In my opinion, good games must adhere to the lore.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I don't EVER admit I'm wrong,
And here we come to a very important point in this whole debate. You are, in essence, saying that lore is unimportant, and neither is anything we say about it. Since your mind is obviously made up, and nothing we say will sway you, I'm bowing out of this debate. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 01:06:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You are really trying to force me to make a decision between running a good game and being faithful to the lore that is in your head, which is a jerky thing to do.
Countless other DMs have run good games while staying faithful to the lore... In my opinion, good games must adhere to the lore.
I can't agree with that statement enough.
I'd rather a campaign be built around sound Realmslore and quality lore research, than any new and fancy ruleset. For me, it's always about the lore...
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I don't EVER admit I'm wrong,
And here we come to a very important point in this whole debate. You are, in essence, saying that lore is unimportant, and neither is anything we say about it. Since your mind is obviously made up, and nothing we say will sway you, I'm bowing out of this debate.
Indeed. I'd also like to see an end to this now... Let us continue on with other more practical discussions about Amn and the Sythilissan situation  .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Nov 2005 01:07:49 |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 03:02:22
|
I'm really not sure where actually paying attention to the lore of this shared world turned into being a bad DM.
I don't care what kind of metagaming rule-sets you trot out, if a character *in game* literally can't know something, no player or DM rolling dice will tell him. There is no library on lythari to do research in (well, maybe in Evermeet), no sages of lythari (again, outside of the lythari race and a few elves). Not even Arilyn, who was good friends with a lythari, had even a hint about the portals until she was shown.
But then again, if you're not going to listen to sense (you did ask for our opinions, remember? why both if you won't listen?) then I agree with Wooly and Sage. I'm bowing out, and going to post again with something actually on topic. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 03:07:53
|
OK, I'd like to turn again to the various armies. One thing I've always had trouble with in the Realms is figuring out how big is big. I can't find enough instances of hard numbers for the sizes of various armies to understand what a "large" force would be.
For example, how many soldiers can, say, Silverymoon field? Not just the regular army, but a "we need every man and woman who can wield a sword" call? Sembia? Cormyr? (well, ok, bad example, considering how many body blows that nation's taken recently) What about all the various city states?
And how big does an opposing army have to be to be considered large? 5,000? 10,000? 50,000? It doesn't help that this is all relative, and that it was left vague to give individual DM's leeway. A threat to Nesme would not be a threat to Waterdeep, and it took the Tuigan to scare Thay.
All that said, I'd appreciate any numbers estimates on any of the issues I just brought up. How would you run it in your campaign? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 22:33:33
|
If y'all really need a reason as to why a Knowledge check alone isn't going to reveal the lythari crossroads to Priamon Rakesk, here's something (if you care to use it as a basic life/lore thing that can trump rules):
If he doesn't have any conception or interest in the topic, it's not going to fall within his Knowledge check.
Here's some lore on the Frostrune ("Don't call him that!" -K):
A) He knows a lot on portals and gates.
B) He doesn't know everything about gates--just what he gleaned from Halaster (who does know more about gates but managed to get away before all his secrets were stolen).
C) He's got a mad obsession with Shoon era magics and magical items.
D) He's very very knowledgeable about the civilized and settled areas of Tethyr, Amn, and basically any place the Shoon lorded over.
E) He's nearly 2 centuries old, but he's never bothered to study elves (beyond the histories of families that impacted the Shoon) or lycanthropes, so it's quite likely he might not know about those crossroads because it's never crossed his mind to contemplate their existence.
Ergo (IMO), no matter how smart someone is, they don't automatically know things they've never shown an interest in or taken the time to study. While he'd never admit it, Khelben doesn't know the first thing about glacial ecology or how to survive in the Spine of the World beyond the basics of avoiding hypothermia. In the same sense (and maybe a better example as a retcon and rules thing), even someone who studied everything about elves probably doesn't know a damn thing about star elves as they've not been in play and are relatively isolated across the pond.....
Hope this makes some sense or at least clarifies some character stuff about Priamon.
Steven Schend
Who always ignores rules if they get in the way or spoil the lore
PS: Remember this about rules--If we slavishly followed the rules, Elminster and Khelben couldn't do 1/3 of the things we've seen them do in novels and games simply because the newest person to write up their stats didn't read every reference and account for it by the newest version of rules. Case in point--Khelben knows vast amounts more lore about Waterdeep and the Sword Coast than he does about painting, but not according to his stats in the Epic Guidebook...... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 23:13:59
|
| See, this is why you write the books and I just read them. Very well stated, sir, and exactly what I was trying to say. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 00:07:57
|
Well stated, friend Steven. And I, for one, like the additional lore on Priamon. Feel free to share more!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 01:17:08
|
"Patience, younglings. Anticipation is a grand way to sharpen the pallate for many a slaked thirst."
--Malek Aldhanek, overheard in the Court of the Witch-Queen three days before his slaying
PS: Priamon's primary crime for which he was banished from Waterdeep was his patricide/fratricide of most of his family, the rest of whom died out a score of years before the Grey Box's timeframe. He had a powerful patron within the city who met his own timely and traitorous end within a few years of his banishment. I'll leave y'all to weave the clues together.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 04:36:18
|
Well, looks like they get a gold elf lich then. Remember, Steven, you brought this on them. Quite frankly, I don't think anything I build that has the necessary information to feed the plot properly will be survivable, but that's no longer my problem.
Gold Elf Lich it is.
Wizard 5/Loremaster 10/Olin Gisr 10.
Granted, that lowers his caster level a bit, but I can live with that. At least he's only a CR 27 creature. Too bad his INT score doesn't get any lower. (Shrug)
|
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 13:51:15
|
| You and we walk in the same world and see two very different places. Best of luck with the campaign. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 19:19:59
|
Hoondatha, it's not that I see a different place from you. It's that because I run 3.5 I have to be VERY careful with the numbers. And if you look closely at what Steven said, he knows that Gold Elf Lich is kind of broken, too. :)
When I look at the Realms, I see a wide and wondrous place, but I try very hard not to make my Realms populated with high INT people who are secretly morons, do no reconaissance, make no tactical plans, and stand there and wait in their lairs to be killed behind the Baldur's Gate Engine fog of war.
The most important task of a Dungeon Master is to be fair. When you are being fair, you can't always choose the option you would like, especially if you want a good story. You have to be very careful with everything you do. (As I just learned, much to my chagrin, thank you, Mr. Schend.)
The campaign is all written out, I just have to statblock creatures. :) Statblocking creatures is actually fairly easy. There are twelve adventures total, though some of them are pretty long. |
|
|
|
Klack of the Soul
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2024 : 23:48:25
|
Hi, I am also researching material for a future campaign set in Amn during the Sythillisian war, which is how I came by this thread. It looks like the question about the composition of the Syth armies was never answered. Lands of Intrigue lists the army composition on page 59 of Book 2, or page 162 of the PDF version.
Kobolds - 30,000
Goblins - 24,000
Hobgoblins - 10,000
Hill Giants - 45
Ogres - 4,800
It even lays out how the armies are broken up between Sythillis, Cyrvisnea and the third army entrenched in Esmelteran. Sorry for the thread necro. I am sure the original poster has long finished their campaign, but figured maybe it would help someone else who is searching for Sythillisian related material. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Amn and the Sythilissan Empire
