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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 17:50:53
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Spelljammers don't magically lose their speed and maneuverability advantages when in combat. Spelljammers have two movement types: tactical speed and interplanetary speed. And that's it. It doesn't matter if it's heavily laden and slowly moving into a dock on an airless world, or being used in combat in atmosphere: tactical speed is tactical speed. It moves the same, either way.
And yes, a really lucky hit can disable the helmsman... But you'd not need to be that lucky to do more damage to a Halruaan or Eber-whatshit skyship. That really lucky hit might not affect the motive power for one of the latter ships -- it'll just stave in one entire side, instead.
A faster, more maneuverable ship designed with combat in mind is going to be better in combat than a slow, lumbering ship that's only designed for transport. It's like comparing the combat capabilities of a HMMWV and a stock Volkswagen Microbus. The latter might do some things better than the former, but combat is not one of them. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 18:32:05
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Are you guys still on about this when a more fundamental to all designs flaw exists? What happens to all these "robust" ships when hit with any of the magic nullification spells/devices/abilities/phenomena? "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down!" That's what. Even soarwood drops like a brick in that event or, should I say, "eventuality." In fact, the Eberron ships are even more susceptible to magical tomfoolery with their empowering elementals vulnerable to direct manipulation by compulsion charms, divine turning/destruction, and banishment. With all the resources that get poured into these hovering toys and the focus they receive by the highest intelligences in their respective worlds why is there so little to prevent the splattering of crew and breaking of vessel when the magic dies? Airplanes and helicopters have things the pilot can do to safely land when suddenly losing power while blimps just lose the ability to navigate but will otherwise bob in the air until they manually adjust ballast to safely land.
C'mon, the smartest, most diligent engineers and craftsmen are making these things and looking to outperform each other in improvements that enhance the values of the vessels. "Vests of Featherfall" are only slightly more capable of avoiding the fate of dashed upon the surface of the world than Eberron ships but still share the same fate as other Spelljammer and Halruaan craft - hit the ground and spread like strawberry jam. Is that really the best that can be done? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 20:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Are you guys still on about this when a more fundamental to all designs flaw exists? What happens to all these "robust" ships when hit with any of the magic nullification spells/devices/abilities/phenomena? "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down!" That's what. Even soarwood drops like a brick in that event or, should I say, "eventuality." In fact, the Eberron ships are even more susceptible to magical tomfoolery with their empowering elementals vulnerable to direct manipulation by compulsion charms, divine turning/destruction, and banishment. With all the resources that get poured into these hovering toys and the focus they receive by the highest intelligences in their respective worlds why is there so little to prevent the splattering of crew and breaking of vessel when the magic dies? Airplanes and helicopters have things the pilot can do to safely land when suddenly losing power while blimps just lose the ability to navigate but will otherwise bob in the air until they manually adjust ballast to safely land.
C'mon, the smartest, most diligent engineers and craftsmen are making these things and looking to outperform each other in improvements that enhance the values of the vessels. "Vests of Featherfall" are only slightly more capable of avoiding the fate of dashed upon the surface of the world than Eberron ships but still share the same fate as other Spelljammer and Halruaan craft - hit the ground and spread like strawberry jam. Is that really the best that can be done?
Page 8 of Forgotten Realms Adventures:
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Spelljamming helms would not be affected by the dead magic area, provided that they are already in operation.
The first Spelljammer boxed set does note that spelljamming helms won't work in an antimagic shell, but they are considered relics (minor artifacts) against just about everything else.
So depowering a helm with magic is doable, but it's neither reliable nor easy, and you'd be better off with some other method of making it fall out of the sky.
I don't know how much of this was addressed for Eber-whatsit. I'd personally rule that it would take more than a simple dispel to break the enchantments on one.
A Halruaan skyship would be vulnerable to area of effect dispels, but single-item ones it would mostly shrug off -- those things have many, many enchanted plates holding them in the air.
And unless a ship was, like the Monarch Mordent, too close to the ground, any magic flying ship that has its magic temporarily nullified is going to be outside that area of effect very quickly, unless the area is absolutely huge. At speed and altitude, it would likely be back online within seconds, if it had been affected at all. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 23:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know how much of this was addressed for [Eberron]. I'd personally rule that it would take more than a simple dispel to break the enchantments on one.
It has been addressed and, yes, they are that vulnerable. Even elemental clerics can use their domain powers to turn and destroy the elementals powering their flight. The container for the elementals is resistant to dispels (calling it Dispel Immunity below) but that is it. The ships don't have that protection.quote:
Dispel Immunity: An item with dispel immunity cannot be suppressed through the use of Anti-Magic Field, Dispel Magic or similar effects as the source of the magic is actually within the item and not reliant on the outside environment. Likewise, items with dispel immunity are difficult to disenchant, allowing any roll involved (d20, d100, etc) to be rolled twice and the better result of the two chosen. This immunity does not apply to any effect, spell, spell-like ability, psionic power or psi-like ability the item is capable of using that targets anyone but the wearer or the item itself.
Why are Halruaans still making airships when Spelljammer craft are superior? After all, if it can stay in the sky when the deity of magic dies then surely these direct descendants of the Netherese would use such deicide-tolerant devices. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 00:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Why are Halruaans still making airships when Spelljammer craft are superior? After all, if it can stay in the sky when the deity of magic dies then surely these direct descendants of the Netherese would use such deicide-tolerant devices.
For one thing, skyships are something of a status symbol for Halruaan mages. For another thing, most of them simply aren't interested in spelljamming. Lastly, spelljamming helms are very, very expensive, assuming you can even find an arcane to buy one from.
Additionally, the deity of magic doesn't die every other day. It's not really necessary to take precautions against an event that has only happened three times in all of the history of the Realms. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 00:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Additionally, the deity of magic doesn't die every other day. It's not really necessary to take precautions against an event that has only happened three times in all of the history of the Realms.
I dunno' 'bout that. There are still rumors of a 5e FRCS.  |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 00:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Spelljammers don't magically lose their speed and maneuverability advantages when in combat.
To actually fight, they need to get into weapon range, fast or slow. BTW, effective ranges in atmosphere are quite modest.
Movement allows mostly control of the engagement, not direct advantage in attack or defense as such. Except for exploiting dead arcs, but see below.
Since objectives tend to be stationary, rather than cubic miles of air (or void), avoiding an enemy is possible for a very limited set of missions - mostly insertion of troops away from areas covered from air.
And then there's wind. While sailors and weapon crews are obviously capable of operating at SR 1 (17 mph), will the ship be able to use rigging and weapons at SR 3 (51 mph)? And if yes, will a ballista or even catapult used in such conditions be able to hit anything smaller than a big castle?
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And yes, a really lucky hit can disable the helmsman... But you'd not need to be that lucky to do more damage to a Halruaan or Eber-whatshit skyship.
How so?
Halruaan ships may be clumsy, but the levitation device is deep inside the hull, IIRC.
Same for Mystaran (except some got the whole hull enchanted to at least float).
Eber-whatshit ships, yes, have hoop-holding beams, that (while small and sticking out), are vulnerable to non-magical weapons. But a warship can and will have multiple engines, so it will be depowered only with multiple very lucky hits (and can tell how many are left). Golden Dragon allowed to call for boarding action (and return) an elemental from one ring - presumably, the ship wasn't supposed to plummet while this function was used, so one was enough to stay afloat.
So yes, there is a good reason why 'jammers tend to reduce interaction with groundling powers to minimum, and in conflicts act as infiltrator transports, rather than lord over the ground opponents directly. Or as much as shortcut sea trade.
Even EIN with its superior numbers, and even against goblinoids used to armored vehicles (spirit warriors) that need tedious crafting and are dangerous to a replacement driver, rather than rely on bombardment. They are arrogant enough to forget this now and then, and that's when things like "a fiend with big axe" happen.
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That really lucky hit might not affect the motive power for one of the latter ships -- it'll just stave in one entire side, instead.
A faster, more maneuverable ship designed with combat in mind
Let's compare within same class - yachts with yachts, warships with warships?
As long as there's no obvious reason why the same engine can't be stuck onto a different hull with a few trivial changes. And especially when we know it was already done.
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is going to be better in combat than a slow, lumbering ship that's only designed for transport.
Slow, lumbering ships designed as military transport often can be refitted as slow, lumbering artillery platforms.
Halruaan ships are built for transport and bombardment, and having to deal with dragons and/or battle magic is part of the job. Precise size unknown, but not very large, considering the small crew and hold.
Golden Dragon (pre-conversion) was 200'x60' warship with upper decks and boards mostly clear to fill with weapons.
Which is quite decent size as SJ ships go.
Neither was supposed to be used in unresisiting void or sit home if there's bad weather.
Also, airships are much cheaper than SJ-helmed ships. Thus, one can afford a bigger fleet or outfit them with some more magic.
Speaking of which, logistics differ in another way: a SJ helm is very expensive, so using it on a ship below its capability is wasteful, but reasonable size limits for airships seem to be much lower.
And there goes most of actual speed & maneuverability advantage: a formation is harder to blindside than a single ship.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 03:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halruaan ships levitate due to plates on the outer hull.
Yes, but that's a very decentralized component, and being cut from giant turtle shell, must be quite sturdy. And a plate on top of something is harder to break than a beam between points of attachment.
Lifting power will be dangerously reduced only when a significant portion of them is peeled or shattered. Plain structural damage is likely to disable the vessel first.
Also, gradual loss of lift (partially restored with loss of altitude, at that) makes it a forced landing, not catastrophic crash. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 27 Sep 2024 10:28:08 |
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Eberron Airships
