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Originally posted by Azar

Why are Half-Elves and Elves unaffected by Abbathor's ability to arouse treasure lust in the mortal races?

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Originally posted by TBeholder
[It does not "show how big" it is any more than a stencilling a crude picture with "perspective" on a wall shows how big a building is. And at the quality level of most kitchen sinks, they would probably cause fits of claustrophobia.

Kitchen sinks are created out of laziness, and in turn breed silly mess.
This silly mess degrades the expected levels of content quality.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I've always used Lynkhab over Malcanthet, Shami or any other succubus, really, as Queen of the Succubi. I enjoyed the irony of the demon queen of desire being unable to obtain her own desires, over Ultra-succubus-just-add-hair-dye #1 and #2.

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by TBeholder
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.

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Personally, I think it's both a flaw and merit, for example for the fact that it show how big/expansive the "mega-setting" of D&D is. But YMMV.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

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...and Legolas! Also starts with "L". Lol.

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Originally posted by TBeholder
And here you pointed right at the source of this problem (and many others): such doplegangers are simply dragged from different existing adaptations by several designers.
Kitchen sinks are the root of many evils.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon


Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

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Originally posted by Baltas


Yeah, even Lolth seems partially named after Lilith. With this Lilith being just an alias of Shami-Amourae, also makes sense, especially seeing Shami's lore does have some visible similarities to Lilith's story were she started out as mortal (ie a mortal woman from extremelly primeval times that became (one of) the first succubi and queen of them).

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In retrospect, it does seem Shami-Amourae's description (golden haired and white/porcelain skinned), might be inspired by two 19th century paintings of Lilith

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Yeah, the Far Realm was barely a thing in 2e, and there weren't any deities from there in that edition. Car Sargent clearly established her as a resident of Baator. Honestly, I see aboleths as weird and frightening but also still entirely within the normal range of Prime Material creatures.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Eh, I mean, you've got Lilith and Lilis (same actual name) as two different entities in 1e, and then this article (which makes no mention of Damh in the bit about Satyrs) proposes her as a succubus, and then I'll have to handle dealing with the existing uses whenever I get to Mesopotamian mythology, I'm inclined to ignore this material. If anything, Shami-Amourae is just known as Lilith in some places or something, if someone *really* wants to incorporate the material. "Lilith" as a name is just WAY too overused in D&D. :)

Jeff

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Originally posted by Baltas

Another great entry on Piscaethces!
I see though you ignored, at least largelly her Lords of Madness lore, ie no mention of her connection to the Far Realm.

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Originally posted by Baltas

I found another obscure entity from 2nd edition lore, though I'm not sure if worshipped, is Lilith the "Greatest of Succubi", introdued in a very late 2E bit of lore in Dragon #266:

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Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.

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This was in a series of lore snipets in the article "50 Monster Maximizers" by Brian Corvello.

These Lilith's relation, if any to the Archdevil Consort Lilith (who curiously, is completelly absent in 2E), is unknown, though might be in part, along with reall-life mythology and folkore (the latter more probable) what made the decison to tie the Devil Lilith as the source of succubi in 4E lore (kinda, being the first angel of love, on which all other were based, with angels of love eventually becoming the first succubi; and the queen of Baatorian succubi), and in Green Ronin's "Book of the Rightous". Unless Lilith would be a Tanar'ri infilitrator to Baator like Astaroth.

I would guess Lilith is either a rival to Shami-Amourae, or another alias of her's. A bit regretable I didn't find it earlier, but oh well.

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Lilith is the most powerful
succubus and all other
succubi pay homage to her.
Lilith is a foul temptress who seduces
men of great power to destroy and
enslave them. Lilith's usual form is a
woman of unparalleled beauty, but in
whatever form she takes, her legs are
covered with coarse hair. Unfortunately,
Lilith is a mistress of deceit, and victims
rarely see this sign until it is too late.

DMs who wish to introduce this fiend
into a high-level campaign should pre¬
pare a formidable foe, surely of no less
power than an Abyssal Lord.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, the story of the insectare could fit well if the original "insectares" were Abeil. They are from 3.5 and have a slightly elven look.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Abeil

I had never heard of this race before your article on their god. I like your idea of the elves performing some kind of high magic that changes the race. I have a couple other proposals for you that might be the truth OR they might be heresies....

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Originally posted by sleyvas

What if what the elves did was magically modify an Abeil queen to have a womb instead of laying eggs, and thus making her able to mate with her elf lover. This may have made the other Abeil queens think of her and her children as abominations.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Its obvious that with the green skin on these insectares they they were hinting at the insect side being something like grasshoppers or praying mantises (so possibly hidden links to thri-kreen or similar races). But what if the green comes from something else? What if the "elven" looks could be better described as "fey"... and what if the insectare race comes from a breeding of the flower loving abeil and a plant based fey race "like" dryads... that bind to giant flowers instead of trees? That might even explain the priests never leaving their homeworld, perhaps all insectare "queens" are flowerbound. If this were true, it might add to the idea that elves get so mad for being accused of creating them. This could even add into things like their unusually long antennae as being "vine-like".

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Originally posted by sleyvas

If this second option were true... it might be something where the god, Klikral, has two forms... the male being like an insect like male, and the female like a green skinned flower fey. I picture this possibly being something where an evil fey plant goddess turned some abeil from serving their queen, and getting these abeil to mate with her fey servants. Being an evil fey she might not like elves.

You know... I think I actually like this second option. Even if its not the "insectare" it could make a really interesting race that links the idea of beefolk and fey flowerfolk mating. The male and females sides of their races may be significantly different with the females being more dryad-like (and thus their eye differences as well). Creating new females may require some sacrifice of magic to bond a newborn to a giant form of flower, which might explain why the males are out thieving magic where they can find it to bring it home.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You know... until this article I had never really thought much about him and how he might be used. As with many of the things you write, the reading of it spawns ideas in my head. What just popped into my own head is the fact that Realmspace's sun is ACTUALLY a planet that has been set afire and has NUMEROUS portals to the elemental plane of fire on it. What if this is a battleground where Imix has forces that work against OTHER forces of fire? By that, I mean the forces of not only Zaaman Rul, but possibly even the forces of Surtr (who is a god of realmspace), Garyx (also a god of realmspace I still believe), or even primordials like Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer and his slaad followers. Maybe there's something ON this planet that they might all want to control, and that's WHY there's so many portals for fire to this place. Maybe there's also portals to radiance on the sun and there's fights between the powers of fire and radiance. Not sure where to exactly take this, but figured this might be a good way to explain why the people on the sun aren't rampaging elsewhere.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Imix, the Prince of Evil Fire: https://bit.ly/40LRvLm

The ruthless Prince of Evil Fire Creatures is Imix, a warlord who strives to dominate all with his fiery destruction. He plans and strategizes in steps, completing one before moving to the next. it is widely held that should he succeed in his current war against Olhydra, no other archomental would be able to match his power.

Jeff

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Originally posted by sleyvas

You know, I know you're writing this for 2e, but this Kavor guy would make a great primordial. Having the gravs be psionic individuals using telekinetic powers rather than wizardry would also seem to work well with them. Their elites might actually be classed as psion type and/or artificer type classes rather than wizards. Having them use psionic power to make their weapons heavier on impact, pr making something akin to oil of impact, etc...

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Heavy..... {snaps fingers like a hippie from 1970's tv}

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Not really inspired by anything in particular other than she's known to have done evil stuff even before her fall. I like there being lots of stories that crop up to explain mysterious things that aren't explained, both to muddy the waters and to inspire other people who want to make something in particular "true" in their own campaign. Kanchelsis is canonically a visitor to drow cities to enjoy his particular brand of pleasure, so it seemed like a reasonable story that people would tell (plus, people tend to be fans of piling all the wrongs they can think of at the feet of their enemies). :)

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

We know that there are non-archomentals who claim that status (Bwimb/Bwimb II, Chilimba, and Ehkahk), it seems reasonable that there might be some powerful individuals who claim to be archomentals but aren't really. That's what I see Unguliustuk, considering he is from a 1e Dungeon adventure at a time when there weren't good archomentals but Imix, Ogremoch, and the like were all *examples* of a larger group. With 2e making it reasonably clear that there are only two on each of the four elemental planes, plus Cryonax, I see Unguliustuk downgraded like the other paraelemental lords. If I were to run a campaign on Elemental Earth, I would either treat Entemoch the same or make him an alias of Sunnis.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

There were some interesting legendary/mythical Mesoamerican figures I considered but they didn't quite fit I felt.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon
I always figured her name essentially means "fake love" (sham amor). :)

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

The material makes it pretty clear she is *incredibly* old. I doubt her original form would be recognizable, except maybe to the Juna. I suspect she has just adapted her preferences to the common life forms that tanar'ri prey upon now.

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LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race
whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the
current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe
that not only wiped out most of their people but changed
time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest
past. Attempting to undo the catastrophe would apparently
result in another disaster even more terrible, so the deci-
mated survivors—less than gods but more than mortals—
for the most part merely attempt to amuse them selves and
stave off ennui as they work out their individual destinies.

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As elves are to humans, so are leShay to the elves (but more
so): a race immortal, enigmatic, and exceptionally powerful.
LeShay look like tall, thin, albino elves, except that
they lack the oversized ears of true elves (leShay ears
look more like half-elf ears) and, while they have the
glossy dead-white hair of true albinos, their eyes are pits
of darkness.

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Originally posted by AuldDragon

Considering she only appeared in a single adventure and then in the reprint and update to the adventure, it's fair that later writers missed her when they wanted a queen of succubi figure, and it was only afterwards that it was pointed out that there was already one. :)

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Originally posted by Baltas

Great articles!

Kanchelsis is a great addition. Is Lolth being possibly connected to his creation, inspired by Drow Vampire 2E lore suggesting Lolth is the source of (their strain of?) vampirism, or connection of Vlad Tolenkov to both?

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Originally posted by Baltas

The connection/romance with Eshebala, and them representing a male and female personification of the dark side of elven nature, is very interesting, and fitting new lore for them.

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Originally posted by Baltas

With Entemoch or Sunnis, fans for years wondered if they are the same enity or two separate ones. It's possible for them to be one - Near-Powers were known to have aspects (if not in the 3E meanig)/forms, for example Verin with his aspect as Ztefano. Also curiosly, Grumbar, Ogremoch's and Entemoch's possible father, has a female aspect on Toril - Etugen.
If separate, I wonder if they are one related. Lovers or some other form of partnership? Maybe one is the the child of the other? If Sunnis is Entemoch's mother with Grumbar, she could also be the mother of Ogremoch, who moved to an opposite alignement to his mother (possibly influenced by the Elder Elemental God?).
With Unguliustûk - great find of this obscure Archomental. I think (when not considered as an alias of Ogremoch), he could be the previous Archomental of Evil Earth, deposed by Ogremoch.

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Originally posted by Baltas

With Megwandir, it's fascinating that she could be either Lolth or the Queen of Air and Darkness. But she might had been both, in context of some obscure lore.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Or that's my idea, and it's 4th edition influenced, so I’m not sure how much you would like it.

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Originally posted by Baltas

With Shami-Amourae, it's great to see the OG Succubus Queen to getting more attention.
I like how the 6 Succubi from her retinue, are named after various succubi, or similar entities from reall life folklore, except Phryne, who is named after a famous Greek courtesan.

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Originally posted by Baltas

With reall life inspiration, I wondered if the "Shami" part of Shami-Amourae name isn't derived either from Samael (sometimes spelled Samil or Shemal, and who is either Lilith's partner, or even her male aspect, as decribed in the 12th century Treatise on the Left Emanation, and latter Zohar), or Samyaza (possible spellings include "Samiaza(z)", or "Shamazya"), both connected to lust in folklore.
If Shami-Amourae has a quite a different origin to them (especially in 1e and 2e), more similar to Lilith's from Alphabet of Ben Sira (and later sources inspiired y it), or Zohra/Zahra/Istahar from Jewish and Arabic stories about Samyaza. It would be a distorted/corrupted spelling, but so is "Amourae" - being a corruption of of "Amor" (the deity's name) or "amour".

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Originally posted by Baltas

With her preference for human, elven or half-elven worshippers and sacrifices (as mentioned in lore since 1e in general), I wondered if in life she was a member of these races, or of a similar race.
(Elves had a "spirit" that reincarnated in 1E, but I think if the spirit advanced from larvae to succubus, I think it would stop/derail the process).

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Originally posted by Baltas

Kanchelsis' and her's antagonism has sense, seeing the set-up. I'm personaly though a bit disapointed Greater Vampires (spawned by succubi), were not touched uppon (and how it plays into the two's antagonism), though I guess them not being mentioned since 1E's Lords of Darkness, might be part of the reason.

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Originally posted by Baltas

In retrospect, it's a bit odd 3E writers didn't just describe Malcanthet as an alias/aspect of Shami-Amourae (and I write this liking both Succubi Queens), though I guess they just wanted them as separate entities.

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Originally posted by TomCosta

Neat thoughts Baltas!

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Originally posted by Brian R. James

Baltas asks a great question about the true nature of Auril, the Frostmaiden. During my time as a Forgotten Realms designer I attempted to weave plot threads into lore that would be slowly revealed over time. The redemption of Auril was one such thread. Sadly, WotC moved in a different direction and I was unable to deliver the full story as I had envisioned. The short version is this:

For the first time in several millennia Auril is now free from the corrupting influence of the Queen of Air and Darkness. The two were once separate entities, then conjoined as one, and are now separate again. After regaining her freedom and true identity following the events of the Stormstar Requiem, Aurilandür is now aligned with Silvanus who is aiding the Frostmaiden in repairing her relationship with the Seelie Court of Stars.

Clearly, WotC is moving forward with Auril being evil, as shown in the previews for the upcoming adventure Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden. In my view, the antagonist of that adventure is in fact the Queen of Air and Darkness, now falsely masquerading as Auril while seeking a new host to corrupt with the Black Diamond.

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Originally posted by Brian R. James

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Queen of Air and Darkness

The oldest myths and legends tell of a race of vile entities that once presided over the remains of a dying universe. These immortal beings of evil incarnate had drained their realm of all life and power. So it was that in the last age of their race, these entities breached the barrier between their realm and ours, pushing shards of unspeakable evil through the fissure between realities. With the power of the shards, they hoped to corrupt the most powerful beings of our cosmos into enacting their vile schemes.

Eons passed as the scions of elemental evil slowly succumbed to oblivion. When only a handful of their kind remained, the plan they had enacted so long ago finally came to fruition. A divinity from our realm, capricious and curious to a fault, found and took hold of the shard of evil. To the archfey Aurilandür, the shard appeared as a black ten-faceted jewel, looming entropy reflected in its soulless gloaming.

This unwise act opened the archfey’s thoughts and essence to the vile entities trapped in their collapsing universe. The link from the Black Diamond corrupted the fey goddess in an instant, transforming the once cheerful and benevolent Frost Sprite Queen into a cold and hateful husk of her former self. Wretched beyond any hope of her own physical death, Aurilandür retreated into the dark subconscious of the entity that had subsumed her—the Queen of Air and Darkness.

—Demonomicon of Iggwilv

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Of course, the actual concept of a "queen of the succubi" is hardly new to D&D. Back in DUNGEON #5, Robert Kelk's adventure "The Stolen Power" introduced Shami-Amourae, while in second edition's Planescape setting we learned about Lynkhab.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Really hurt you didn't like my write-up in Dungeon #148. :-(

--Eric

<joking>

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Really hurt you didn't like my write-up in Dungeon #148. :-(

--Eric

<joking>

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