| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Drizztsmanchild |
Posted - 08 Aug 2013 : 10:10:30
WARNING BELOW HAS A SPOILER FOR "THE COMPANIONS", DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE SPOILED!!!
So at the end of the Companions , it is hinted that Lolth has a vendetta against Drizzt. I was wondering if Lolth herself became involved in the attack...would Corellon come to Drizzt's aid? I know Drizzt's present goddess isn't as powerful as Lolth. And I know that Corellon despises Lolth. So would he interfere? Just because its Lolth? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 20:26:23
As already discussed, the problem is that the ritual and the transformation weren't even needed, or wanted (for reasons that I explained in my previous posts). Eilistraeens being drow wasn't a problem, the balor curse wasn't either (it had no influence on the life of free drow, since all it did was holding them back from Arvandor, but they went to E's realm anyway, so...). Accepting a deathmatch to solve a non-issue a really stupid thing to do, especially when it's played by the enemy's rules.
I wish that they just brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun/The Masked Lady back and be done with this mess of contradictions and stupid behaviours. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 18:48:32
Maybe the masked lady agreed to the death match to distract lolth so she couldn't interfere with the ritual. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:48:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I agree with the sentiments Irennan. Drow are a proud people and I don't see them willingly giving up/changing their appearance. It was a bad move on WotC's part to implement this (and I say this as it was NOT THE FAULT of Ms. Smedman, she did what she was contracted to do).
True. I know that the author was merely carrying out orders and I'm not trying to bash her.
quote:
My point is I can see Eli agreeing to the match IF she knew she and her people would have some backup afterwards (in the form of Corellon stepping in). I guess I'm just trying to do my best to reconcile the lore in a meaningful way for myself. Corellon handled the whole situation very poorly during the Descent (I rather like the hypothesis that the High Magic ritual was tampered with by Lloth, btw) and, sincer redemption was the focus of the novel, perhaps he saw his part in it a type of redemption for his past failings. Just something to chew on...my homebrew does not match canon anyway (Eli never died in my campaign).
I get what you mean, but considering that the eilistraeens didn't need any redemption whatsoever and that changing them and then going poof would have left the rest of the drow (the vast majority) -which in the novels are labeled as ''unwilling'' and ''cast down'' by Corellon's servants, IIRC- w/o any help, I could never picture the Dark Maiden agreeing to the game (especially considering that anything she did while playing, she could have accomplished w/o doing so -and that the game was only a limitation: they were playing by Lolth's rules there-).
If Corellon wanted to make up for the Descent, he should have simply done what I wrote four posts above, not letting his son and daughter do all the job, then come in and ''claim'' all the followers, IMO. I really don't like this portrayal of him. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:35:35
I agree with the sentiments Irennan. Drow are a proud people and I don't see them willingly giving up/changing their appearance. It was a bad move on WotC's part to implement this (and I say this as it was NOT THE FAULT of Ms. Smedman, she did what she was contracted to do).
My point is I can see Eli agreeing to the match IF she knew she and her people would have some backup afterwards (in the form of Corellon stepping in). I guess I'm just trying to do my best to reconcile the lore in a meaningful way for myself. Corellon handled the whole situation very poorly during the Descent (I rather like the hypothesis that the High Magic ritual was tampered with by Lloth, btw) and, sincer redemption was the focus of the novel, perhaps he saw his part in it a type of redemption for his past failings. Just something to chew on...my homebrew does not match canon anyway (Eli never died in my campaign). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:27:46
It was Lolth who got everyone into the game, not Eilistraee -AFAIK-
Besides, why play a game like that at all, when it doesn't give you any extra tools or advantages to get what you want. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun could have simply continued their battle without limiting themselves or gambling everything on a game (especially when more and more drow were starting to move away from Lolth -20% of dark elven population worshiping Eilistraee at the time was a sign of this-)
The idea of having Lolth tell Eilistraee ''yo, lets deathmatch'' and the positive answer to this of all the Dark Seldarine just doesn't make sense in my eyes.
Also (I said it in some other post, sorry about repeating myself) I don't see the reason for all this hurry to redeem what drow she could, when those dark elves were the ones who didn't even need or want it? Why force them to forgo their drowness, when it is something that they have no problem with and see as part of their identity? I really fail to see any logical motivation behind this (which is what it was done in the novels), even more so that they never intended ''redemption'' as changing race, but as conquering freedom and choosing one's own life. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 01:01:36
I'm gonna add another twist to the discussion...what if Eli and Corellon knew Lloth wouldn't 'play the game' if Corellon was in it and so secretly conspired (knowing Eli would lose) to free what drow she could and then dear ol' dad would join in and move directly against the ex-wife...all with a plan to bring back his lil' girl in the end!  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:44:26
He could have acted without stupidly binding himself to a chess game...
It's not like he needed a piece on that board to represent himself in order to help: playing the game only meant signing for a deathmatch, but nothing says that the ones who don't do it can't influence the drow matter, AFAIK.
For example, Corellon could have made the life of free drow much easier by promoting the creation of relationships with the elves -without the need for the former to have brownish skin (which doesn't add anything)- letting the eilistraeens and their goddess know that they're not alone on their battle. This is something that he should have done since the beginning of the Descent, chess game or not. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 00:20:51
Corellon probably wasn't allowed to interfere.he tied his own hands when he banished the drow.anyone of the dark seldarine could have interfered with the sava game of life but those who did had to go by the same rules.both lolth and the masked lady called on AO as witness to their match,which I think lolth did just so corellon couldn't help his daughter.as a greater goddess lolth could once again see the future where it pertains to her sphere of influence...the drow.she knew she would when the match between the masked lady and herself. Corellon couldn't interfere until lolth infringed on the elven domain.once the masked lady cleansed the her dark elves that put them within corellon's sphere of influence. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 19:25:09
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@CorellonsDevout
quote:
Backtracking a little--and I'm only bringing this up because it occurred to me earlier--and returning to LP. What if--and I realize this might be stretching it--Corellon didn't interfere and help Eilistraee because he wasn't allowed? Eilistraee may have asked him to stay out of it. "This is between me and mommy dearest, dad." Again, I know that could be stretching it.
The future of a whole race was at stake there. Any non braindead person would have accepted the help of such a powerful entity, especially considering its involvement in this issue. Someone who -like Eilistraee. holds his/her people dear would never put personal conflict/interests before their well being, especially in a moment as decisive as that.
Also even assuming that Eilistraee was so stupid to cut out her father, he could've simply ignored her and spare his people so much death, because -again- lives and souls both divine and mortal were at stake.
Like I said, I realize I was stretching it. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 14:21:05
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Yes, but there is nothing in canon lore saying it happened this way. Besides, there were clerics of the Seldarine, not only of Corellon.
Knowing how elves and their gods normally operate, his explicit advice on the ritual is much more likely than anything else.
The alternative being that everyone including his clerics discussed for years (they're elves, remember?) that it's time to bounce Ssri'te'qessir out of favor of Corellon, developed the detailed rituals to this end all on their own, and... no one bothered to ask his own stance on this insignificant issue. And other gods - in what appears to be one of the most cohesive pantheons ever around the Great Wheel - didn't ask him either. All the while Corellon himself was either too distracted sniffing flowers or didn't deign to at least make his opinion heard. Seriously? 
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
@TBheolder
Removing the heart of Ilythiiri corruption -their leaders, the ones who started spreadin it- and the not yet diffused cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur would've worked waaay better than promoting their proliferation by exiling the dark elves (the Vyshaan were removed from power through violence, the some could have been done for Ilythiir). The curse wasn't the optimal solution at all, I'd even go as far as saying that it was stupid: you don't indiscriminately exile a whole race because they fought a war with the same weapons as their enemies.
Well, the idea was to curse specifically those who (actually or supposedly) turned from "the proper elven ways", i.e. the Seldarine, wasn't it? So at very least dark elves outside Ilythiir probably weren't supposed to be affected. I.e. they planned something less all-encompassing, but royally screwed up.
IMO it couldn't work "clean" even in the ideal circumstances if the spell is supposed to work with vague affinities rather than individually analyze each target according to formal criteria - simply because polytheism doesn't work that way. But Seldarine were an united pantheon not having much experience with interlopers before Lolth and Ghanadaur, and rather self-absorbed to boot, so this must have been their blind spot. They were thinking in terms of "Are they with us or turned to those two?" - but it's too vague and allows a leeway for random fluctuations and feedback, let alone exploits... which most likely happened too.
quote:
Also even assuming that Eilistraee was so stupid to cut out her father, he could've simply ignored her and spare his people so much death, because -again- lives and souls both divine and mortal were at stake.
Well, duh. The "great plot" of LP is firmly based on the assumption that all involved parties - from a drow archmage to the head of the elven pantheon - at once suddenly became too overexcited and stupid to un-derp their eyes and look at something slightly beyond their own noses. I shall not speculate as to the possible reasons for this nor relations with lack of consistency on other details.  |
| Barastir |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 14:03:52
Well, once again, I think the more chaotic, impulsive or vengeful of the Seldarine won over Corellon's sole opinion, as in Eilistraee's case, and he then allowed the ritual to go as it happened. But that's my opinion, with no basis in lore. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 12:48:38
Nonetheless, he and the rest of the Seldarine allowed something as terrible as it to happen when they had the possibility to stop it. That's either pure lazyness or not caring. I agree that this part of lore is contradictory, however. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 12:22:22
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
(...) But you can see a difference between a god doing the magic himself or allowing it to happen.
The difference between a god doing the magic himself or encouraging and consulting a lot of his priests as to how to do the deed using his power is somewhat more fuzzy, however.
Yes, but there is nothing in canon lore saying it happened this way. Besides, there were clerics of the Seldarine, not only of Corellon. And his attitude towards the banishment of Eilistraee (accepting the will of the Seldarine despite his feelings), and his entry in Demihuman Deities where it is cited that he is venerated by "a handful of dark elves" both seem to contradict this possibility.
 |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 11:00:23
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
And further more wendonei corrupted the ilythiiri,but the golds were the ones who "demonized"the miyeritari through rumors of their corruption...! Remember you're not the only "master" of elven lore.
The sun elves exterminated the Miyeritari with the Dark Disaster. The Aryvandaari version of the fact was that the dark elves caused the cataclysm while trying to defend themselves from sun elven armies.
The Vyshaan didn't bother to mask their attermpt to conquer Miyeritar behind the excuse of the corruption of that kingdom: they simply claimed the right to rule Miyeritar because of a family link between its leaders and the Vyshaan clan.
Also, I don't claim to be master of any lore -far from it- (Idk how you came up with that conclusion ), I merely write what I know and -even then- I often use expressions like AFAIK to highlight the fact that my info be wrong.
quote:
orry irennan,but you are wrong.humans use the weave,elves are a part of the weave. Even liriel beanre was made aware of this fundamental truth when she carved her rune on ydrissal's child. Most surface elves are already aware of this,only the drow decendants of the dark elves forgot this truth.[...]
As for the weave not being harmed by the massive death of the elves,again you are wrong.the weave is haredim by the massive deaths of ANY magically based creature.for instance the death of hundreds of dragons,the death toll of the sundering ritual of the elves,the reason the phrimm were caged instead of killed,there is only so much the weave can allow you to do though violence before you begin to hurt your own source of power. Gradual destruction is one thing but mass destruction....
Ok, I stand corrected. The only thing that puzzles me is why the elves -who are supposedly part of the Weave- didn't suffer more than other races from its shattering during the SpellPlague.
@TBheolder
quote:
It not "worked for the Vyshaan" just like that. It worked much later - when they were worn out, and everyone else was less enthusiastic and more pissed off about the whole thing. That is, at the time of The Descent neither Ilythiir nor Vyshaan high-ups could be removed from power simply by a prophetic degree. If fixing things was so simple, they'd do this and get it over with.
Besides, the notion that magic ran out of bounds implies that it was supposed to be more selective, doesn't it? Except it's already a dodgy idea when it's not quite clear what exactly constitues a "worshipper".
Removing the heart of Ilythiiri corruption -their leaders, the ones who started spreadin it- and the not yet diffused cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur would've worked waaay better than promoting their proliferation by exiling the dark elves (the Vyshaan were removed from power through violence, the some could have been done for Ilythiir). The curse wasn't the optimal solution at all, I'd even go as far as saying that it was stupid: you don't indiscriminately exile a whole race because they fought a war with the same weapons as their enemies. Yeah, the're also the fact that criteria used (''dark heart''? Worshipping ''dark deities''?) lent itself to mistakes, but the curse would've been suboptimal even if all the dark elves had been truly evil.
There's no way it can be considered a good solution, as all it has done up to now is:
1)Diffusion of Lolth's influence among the drow, empowering her.
2)Intensification of the prejudice and hatred between drow and elves.
3)Alienation of non evil drow unjustly exiled and condmenation of the newborn to a life of brainwashing and frustration.
4)Inevitable conflicts between the hate-filled dark elves and their prejudice-blinded brethren, causing countless deaths (maybe even more than a complete extermination of the drow would've brought).
quote:
For you, they aren't. For that druid, they are. In a slightly less extreme case, you could say a flower on a mountain is not a part of it but "merely lives here", and she would say it only demonstrates that you suffer from an aberration of proximity.
It actually depends on how you define ''sea of fire'' or ''mountain''. If you refer to them as ecosystems, then yes. If you think of them as landscapes, no. The Weave isn't an ecosystem (it isn't an environment and nothing lives in it -AFAIK-) and doesn't force prohibitive conditions and adaptment (unlike a sea of fire or a mountain) so, while the elves may actually be part of the Weave, that isn't the reason for it IMO.
@CorellonsDevout
quote:
Backtracking a little--and I'm only bringing this up because it occurred to me earlier--and returning to LP. What if--and I realize this might be stretching it--Corellon didn't interfere and help Eilistraee because he wasn't allowed? Eilistraee may have asked him to stay out of it. "This is between me and mommy dearest, dad." Again, I know that could be stretching it.
The future of a whole race was at stake there. Any non braindead person would have accepted the help of such a powerful entity, especially considering its involvement in this issue. Someone who -like Eilistraee. holds his/her people dear would never put personal conflict/interests before their well being, especially in a moment as decisive as that.
Also even assuming that Eilistraee was so stupid to cut out her father, he could've simply ignored her and spare his people so much death, because -again- lives and souls both divine and mortal were at stake. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 03:19:16
About Corellon being "protective and over-dramatic": he is known as the Protector, after all so it's natural he would be considered as such. And it's true, he is a warrior god, as well. But most, if not all Faeraunian pantheons have a deity with war in their profile. Sometimes it's the patron deity, some times it's someone else.
Backtracking a little--and I'm only bringing this up because it occurred to me earlier--and returning to LP. What if--and I realize this might be stretching it--Corellon didn't interfere and help Eilistraee because he wasn't allowed? Eilistraee may have asked him to stay out of it. "This is between me and mommy dearest, dad." Again, I know that could be stretching it. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 00:47:38
As for the weave not being harmed by the massive death of the elves,again you are wrong.the weave is haredim by the massive deaths of ANY magically based creature.for instance the death of hundreds of dragons,the death toll of the sundering ritual of the elves,the reason the phrimm were caged instead of killed,there is only so much the weave can allow you to do though violence before you begin to hurt your own source of power. Gradual destruction is one thing but mass destruction.... |
| jerrod |
Posted - 16 Aug 2013 : 00:39:39
Sorry irennan,but you are wrong.humans use the weave,elves are a part of the weave. Even liriel beanre was made aware of this fundamental truth when she carved her rune on ydrissal's child. Most surface elves are already aware of this,only the drow decendants of the dark elves forgot this truth. And further more wendonei corrupted the ilythiiri,but the golds were the ones who "demonized"the miyeritari through rumors of their corruption...! Remember you're not the only "master" of elven lore. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 21:52:32
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, as I said, cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur had just started to exist among the population when the descent hit (4th Crown War). Before that, the dark elves who worshipped those deities were some power seeking noble houses. At this point, one would guess that the obvious choice would be to remove the corrupted leaders and destroy the cults while they were still weak and not spread yet. If something akin to this worked for the Vyshaan, why not for the dark elves?
It not "worked for the Vyshaan" just like that. It worked much later - when they were worn out, and everyone else was less enthusiastic and more pissed off about the whole thing. That is, at the time of The Descent neither Ilythiir nor Vyshaan high-ups could be removed from power simply by a prophetic degree. If fixing things was so simple, they'd do this and get it over with.
Besides, the notion that magic ran out of bounds implies that it was supposed to be more selective, doesn't it? Except it's already a dodgy idea when it's not quite clear what exactly constitues a "worshipper".
quote:
The general portrayal of Corellon that comes out from his description isn't excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness, however events point to the other way...
The general portrayal of elves leans toward both being over-dramatic and having almost no good sense of when to start and when to stop. All the time.
quote:
Even in your example, the living beings aren't part of the sea of fire, they merely live in it.
For you, they aren't. For that druid, they are. In a slightly less extreme case, you could say a flower on a mountain is not a part of it but "merely lives here", and she would say it only demonstrates that you suffer from an aberration of proximity. 
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
We can see it that way, too. But you can see a difference between a god doing the magic himself or allowing it to happen.
The difference between a god doing the magic himself or encouraging and consulting a lot of his priests as to how to do the deed using his power is somewhat more fuzzy, however. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 18:22:42
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
A great difference between the old legend and the newer lore is that in the tale it is Corellon that changes the dark-hearted elves into drow, and in the newer version it is a High magic ritual, reinforced by clerics of the Seldarine, that changes the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into dhaerow.
I don't see how it's a "difference" rather than an in-universe mythological interpretation. Also "new version" here is as new as mentions of High Magic.
We can see it that way, too. But you can see a difference between a god doing the magic himself or allowing it to happen. And yes, High Magic started appearing in canon YEARS after 1e, and during the 2e (in the 90s). And the Crown Wars were better detailed at the end of 2e and at the times of 3e (at the 2000s). |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 10:55:24
quote:
By far the most obvious reason both for doing it and for the process going out of control is that dark elves to a great enough degree already left Seldarine for (or more often supplemented with) Dark Seldarine and interlopers. Otherwise they won't become a target prioritized above Vyshaan. As simple as this. The Seldarine aren't completely oblivious.
That they failed to run something perfectly on the Prime, over a subject contested with several other gods (one of whom got "dark elves" and another "lifeforce" in portfolio), in a matter as precarious as "withdrawing favor" (and thus their power over?..) - it's less surprising than if they did not screw up
Well, as I said, cults of Lolth and Ghaunadaur had just started to exist among the population when the descent hit (4th Crown War). Before that, the dark elves who worshipped those deities were some power seeking noble houses. At this point, one would guess that the obvious choice would be to remove the corrupted leaders and destroy the cults while they were still weak and not spread yet. If something akin to this worked for the Vyshaan, why not for the dark elves?
To me it is surprising that they screwed up like this. They basically told the dark elves ''we don't want you'', effectively forcing them to choose Lolth/Ghaundadur/Vhaeraun. They were the cause of their own failure, in this regard.
quote:
Also, what's with "Corellon did not want this"? He never was described as a frolicking-with-sprites type merrily giggling and sniffing flowers, but always as a warrior god. More specifically, excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness is quite in character - see the tale of Lafarallin.
Warriors can be protectors, and they don't necessarily take pleasure in harming or killing. The general portrayal of Corellon that comes out from his description isn't excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness, however events point to the other way...
quote:
Non sequitur. Also, existing lore mentions that they are indeed "part of the Weave" every time. Or, in the words of one druid -[...]
Well, that's some kind of fantasy hyper-accelerated version of evolution. Even in your example, the living beings aren't part of the sea of fire, they merely live in it.
It doesn't seem to be the case of the Weave and the elves, to me. The Weave is not a deadly/prohibitive environmental condition that would force selection. Elves have strong affinity to magic and that's the result of their being linked to the weave, but I don't think that either them, or the Weave would die w/o the other. If this was the case, the SP would have brought countless deaths to the elves, but -AFAIK- they were as harmed by it as other races. Maybe we should ask this to Ed.
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 05:56:29
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
A great difference between the old legend and the newer lore is that in the tale it is Corellon that chenges the dark-hearted elves into drow, and in the newer version it is a High magic ritual, reinforced by clerics of teh Seldarine, that changes the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into dhaerow.
I don't see how it's a "difference" rather than an in-universe mythological interpretation. Also "new version" here is as new as mentions of High Magic.
quote:
I'm ot sure in ho much Corellon would be able to deny this magic, cast by mages and by priests of his fellow gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Now, since the ritual was meant to deny Corellon's favor to the dark elves, I wonder why he didn't correct this flaw (actually I still wonder why he allowed such a punishment at all, for the reasons described in my other posts).
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, the Ilythiiri worshipped ''dark deities'', but really... how am I supposed to believe that the random farmer/citizen was ''omg ebil''? They were just like all other elves, not innately evil or anything. Their leader were corrupted by Wendonai, but the Vyshaan were Malkzid's puppets, yet all the dark elves got punished while the sun elves only saw their leaders gone.
By far the most obvious reason both for doing it and for the process going out of control is that dark elves to a great enough degree already left Seldarine for (or more often supplemented with) Dark Seldarine and interlopers. Otherwise they won't become a target prioritized above Vyshaan. As simple as this. The Seldarine aren't completely oblivious.
That they failed to run something perfectly on the Prime, over a subject contested with several other gods (one of whom got "dark elves" and another "lifeforce" in portfolio), in a matter as precarious as "withdrawing favor" (and thus their power over?..) - it's less surprising than if they did not screw up.
Also, what's with "Corellon did not want this"? He never was described as a frolicking-with-sprites type merrily giggling and sniffing flowers, but always as a warrior god. More specifically, excessive and over-dramatic vengefulness is quite in character - see the tale of Lafarallin.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I see Corellon's attitude of banishing and not exterminating them as an act of mercy, maybe for seeing in them the potential for good in the future
More like an elven notion that killing is not good enough if you can bury your enemy alive instead - remember fey-ri? A simpler and more reasonable assumption would be that it's simply not in Seldarine power to bump off followers of other gods wholesale and at will.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The elves are not even native of Toril. Sure, they are strongly linked with the Weave but -AFAIK- they are not part of it and magic wouldn't suffer if elves died.
Non sequitur. Also, existing lore mentions that they are indeed "part of the Weave" every time. Or, in the words of one druid - quote:
Bara's Second Rule of Nature:
An unnatural force can become part of the natural environment.
Suppose some unthinking mage opens a gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire, creating a sea of fire. (There are a lot of ye thoughtless types out there, so give a listen. -Elminster) For a time this unnatural force causes a lot of problems in the local environment. Animals and plants die, others move to new homes, and the weather is affected by a permanent source of heat. (This would irritate me, by the way. Don't do it.)
After a while, though, the surrounding environment and the organisms living within it would adapt to this strange incursion. Creatures accustomed to heat and fire would move in, and everything would adjust to accommodate the sea of fire. At this point, which occurs only after years of pain, death, and adaptation, the sea of fire would become a "normal" part of the environment. Removing it would have the same effects as its original introduction: a lot of creatures and plants would die, the ecology would be upset, and a long period of adaptation to the new conditions would follow.
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Aug 2013 : 03:55:19
I have a soft spot for Shevarash, but I also like drow, so it's kind of contradictory.
Sounds like I need to get my hands on Lost Empires. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 21:42:03
Agreed. But yes, some of the Seldarine are vengeful or wild enough to pass this kind of judgement, IMO and accordingly with their depiction in Evermeet: Island of the Elves. Even if Shevarash was not around back then.  |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 21:21:36
Well, the ritual was meant to deny the dark elves Corellon's favor (it is written under the 4th Crown War section), so I guess that he was very involved (and the ritual was also cast by his priests among the others), as the rest of the Seldarine was. This simply means that the whole Seldarine was very short sighted, foolish and too fast to allow the punishment. Even if the Miyeritari had not be cursed, the other totally unjust implications of the curse would still stand.
The original version (i.e. excluding Miyeritari, Ilythiiri common folks and so on) would make way more sense (even tho there would still be the fact that the newborn would be unfairly punished), but this part of the elven lore is just a big mess atm. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 20:55:06
Just read it, and according to LEoF all dark elves - this would include possible survivors of Miyeritar, but only dark, not green elves - were transformed. A great difference between the old legend and the newer lore is that in the tale it is Corellon that changes the dark-hearted elves into drow, and in the newer version it is a High magic ritual, reinforced by clerics of the Seldarine, that changes the Ssri-Tel'Quessir into dhaerow. I'm not sure in how much Corellon would be able to deny this magic, cast by mages and by priests of his fellow gods. By what I read about the Seldarine in Evermeet: Island of Elves, maybe it would be difficult to him to change the pantheon's minds, just like in Eilistraee's story.
EDIT: lot of typos |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 20:27:23
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
[...] They demonized the dark elves through quiet lobbying,and paying bards,and the darkelves of ilythiir played right into the hands of the vyshaan.their anger was used against them to help turn enough of the other elven subraces against the dark elves.
It was Wendonai who ''demonized'' the Ilythiiri leaders, not the sun elves, AFAIK.
quote:
Think about this..if corellon had slain the entire dark elf race and their allies it would have been devastating to the weave,but cause elves are a part of the weave
The elves are not even native of Toril. Sure, they are strongly linked with the Weave but -AFAIK- they are not part of it and magic wouldn't suffer if elves died.
quote:
and the seldarine would have suffered a major drop in power it he had killed or banished the gold elves at a time when lolth and the other anti seldarine were gaining in power.it is possible that the elven race would've been driven from toril(meaning the seldarine would've been banished from this crystalsphere. I think The.choice was lose one subrace or lose two or more,so the seldarine began damage control on a massive level. The drow were sacrificed to preserve the deific power of the seldarine,and the vyshaan were sentenced to death only because the gods realized that the vyshaan were serving malkizid,and they were gonna damned the other golds causing the seldarine to lose the worship of the gold elves. And I think secondarily to appease the the guilthy feelings the monelves had for banishing the innocent dark elves with the bad ones.
I really don't see how banishing the drow could lead to an empowerment of the Seldarine. If anything this forced the dark elves to choose Lolth/Vhaeraun/Ghaunadaur as protectors (Eilistraee's influence was severely weakened after the Dark Disaster), reinforcing the enemy.
The most productive choice would've been simple: like for the sun elves, remove the corrupted dark elven leaders (mainly Sethomiir house) and banish and eradicate Lolth and Ghaunadaur cults before they could actually spread, or -even better- destroy Lolth (At the time, her power was insignificant if compared to the Seldarine). Once removed the corrupted head and once ended the whole mess of a war, the common folk would have returned to their standard life. It worked for the Aryvandaari, why not for the drow (who were not brainwashed by Lolth nonsense yet, as her and Ghaunadaur's worship started to actually rise only at the time of the 4th Crown War, the one who led to the descent)? |
| jerrod |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 20:02:22
IMO, wretched corellon in some ways forced to allow the cursing of the dark elves ,by the rules he established for the People. Number one reason is free will among his children.the gods trend to be shaped by their followers,so if enough elves believe in the action corellon must allow them to make their mistake,even if it promotes more suffering. Remember the gold elves were masters of PR. They demonized the dark elves through quiet lobbying,and paying bards,and the darkelves of ilythiir played right into the hands of the vyshaan.their anger was used against them to help turn enough of the other elven subraces against the dark elves. Think about this..if corellon had slain the entire dark elf race and their allies it would have been devastating to the weave,but cause elves are a part of the weave,and the seldarine would have suffered a major drop in power it he had killed or banished the gold elves at a time when lolth and the other anti seldarine were gaining in power.it is possible that the elven race would've been driven from toril(meaning the seldarine would've been banished from this crystalsphere. I think The.choice was lose one subrace or lose two or more,so the seldarine began damage control on a massive level. The drow were sacrificed to preserve the deific power of the seldarine,and the vyshaan were sentenced to death only because the gods realized that the vyshaan were serving malkizid,and they were gonna damned the other golds causing the seldarine to lose the worship of the gold elves. And I think secondarily to appease the the guilthy feelings the monelves had for banishing the innocent dark elves with the bad ones. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 19:17:43
Thank you for the reference, Irennan, I'll look after it. As for the language, I could try to read it in Italian, but since I can read from the original here and my Italian is quite rusty - and I only learned a little bit of your language, when I got there ten years go - I think I'll pass this time. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 16:45:38
LEoF says that the reason why Miyeritari were cursed lies among the mysteries of the Descent, while elven sages think that it is one of the disastrous consequences of excessive High Magic use (like the cataclysm that the creation of Evermeet caused, or the destruction of Jhaamdath). This is what the book says, I can't post an actual quote because I own the italian version of it.
Now, since the ritual was meant to deny Corellon's favor to the dark elves, I wonder why he didn't correct this flaw (actually I still wonder why he allowed such a punishment at all, for the reasons described in my other posts). |
| Barastir |
Posted - 14 Aug 2013 : 16:27:17
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The explanation was that there was a mistake in the curse ritual, or something along those lines.
Where can I find this explanation? |
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