| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Barastir |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 10:00:18
I'm not sure if someone ever wrote about this before, but there we go: is a lycanthrope that is linked to the cycles of the moon transformed when the moon shows up during the daylight hours?
And another question, inspired by our discussions about spelljamming and the canon info about a colony of Leira worshippers in Selūne: I don't recall if there is a specific rule about lycanthropes there, but if not, how would it work? Maybe they transform wherever Toril is in the sky, or alternatively, they change when it's DAY there, so the moon is visible in Toril's sky.
What do you think? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 16:45:52
The way I look at Realmspace lore (and the way it is considered officailly, by the definitions of canon we have gotten) is that Realmspace lore is canon only onto the SJ setting, and not necessarilly to the FR setting.
That means if you are running FR, you can completely ignore all the Realmspace material. If you run SJ, you can ignore most of the FR material. However, if you want to have some 'SJ fun' in your Realms campaign, then you can add in those elements from the SJ setting that overlap. They aren't there unless you want to to be there.
And since that is really how it works anyway, I am starting to not understand what the purpose of 'canon' is for, other then keeping authors/designers 'on track' (like a setting bible). Canon should only effect people who are working on other official products - no one else should even worry about it. The only thing 'breaking canon' does (in their case) is make us not want to buy any more products, because the setting gets too confusing.
Rich Baker 'dipped' into SJ/Realmspace lore in his last novel series, and to be honest, it was my least-favorite bits. I prefer making those choices myself (whether SJ exists or not), not have authors do it for me. Once PCs find out they can get a 'magic flying ship', then thats what they will want. So would anyone with half a brain. Spelljamming tech throws the finely-tuned economics of FR off-kilter.
There was also a few mentions of SJ stuff in various post-2e FR material, and I find that equally disconcerting. It was never meant to be canon, but now it is. That means everyone who disliked SJ in-general will now have one more strike against FR.
But now I am getting close to the running argument against 'kitchen sink' settings in general, which both FR and Golarion have to be, because they are intimately tied to the rules. Sometimes I think that 3rd-party companies that don't have to worry about rules have it much easier for their settings. With all the good rules-systems out there right now (and I include 4e in that statement), one has to wonder wonder why they are even bothering with rules for 5e. Since they are no longer the '500 lb gorilla in the room', maybe that should just embrace that, and stick to setting-content only. Rules create headaches... settings create opportunities. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 19:54:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I stick with canon as defined by WotC, since we're talking about something published by them.
This is completely untrue.
Are you calling me a liar, or saying that what WotC publishes for its own settings is not canon?
Neither. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 14:49:40
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I stick with canon as defined by WotC, since we're talking about something published by them.
This is completely untrue.
Are you calling me a liar, or saying that what WotC publishes for its own settings is not canon? |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 14:37:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I stick with canon as defined by WotC, since we're talking about something published by them.
This is completely untrue. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 14:04:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I believe the Adventures in Arcane Space boxed set covered lycanthropes being affected when they were off-world... And I don't remember where I read it, but I know I read something about werecritters with alternate triggers, too.
It's all in the Spelljammer: Adventures in Space boxed set, on the pages 64-65 of Chapter 3: Spacefarers on the booklet Lorebook of the Void (including alternate triggers for those bitten outside a planetary - I think it also includes "moon" - surface). Thanks, Wooly! |
| Barastir |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 13:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
How do lycanthropes respond when exposed to spells which "duplicate" moonlight, like Presper's Moonbow and various elfy moon-mithril magics? Spell descriptions might help determine whether lycanthropy is triggered by moonlight or triggered by lunar cycles.
I don't think it's triggered by moonlight, otherwise some lycanthropes would transform in all of the phases of the moon except new moon. However, a full moon, at least in RW, can appear during the day. But using moonlight-based magic to transform werecreatures would be an interesting roleplaying trigger. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 11:58:44
Not at all criticizing Spelljammer's giant space hamsters, of course. Draconians would be much more fearsome when riding giant space hamsters, perhaps a giant herd of them should graze across the Dalelands.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 11:52:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Validity of "canon" aside, Spelljammer was a great setting concept but the actual quality of Spelljammer products was substandard. The writing was full of inconsistencies, inanities, and incompleteness; sometimes I can't even tell if the editors butchered it or if they never got around to it. Spelljammer plugged itself into existing campaign settings by just doing its own thing, which is original but problematic. The Realms are far more than just another mudball, but Spelljammers don't really care unless it's time to get some fresh air for their little boats, an attitude which (to me) seems is shared by the Spelljammer writers.
Yeah, I loved Spelljammer, but its integration with existing settings was bad. Krynnspace, in particular, was really bad. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 11:40:52
Validity of "canon" aside, Spelljammer was a great setting concept but the actual quality of Spelljammer products was substandard. The writing was full of inconsistencies, inanities, and incompleteness; sometimes I can't even tell if the editors butchered it or if they never got around to it. Spelljammer plugged itself into existing campaign settings by just doing its own thing, which is original but problematic. The Realms are far more than just another mudball, but Spelljammers don't really care unless it's time to get some fresh air for their little boats, an attitude which (to me) seems is shared by the Spelljammer writers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 11:23:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
And yet, none of the things you mention contradict canon. There is a HUGE difference between "contradicting canon" and "not liking" Forgotten Realms lore presented in a Spelljammer source.
I am quite aware of this fact. I'm also quite aware that you and I have a different definition of canon. Me, I stick with canon as defined by WotC, since we're talking about something published by them. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 05:45:22
And yet, none of the things you mention contradict canon. There is a HUGE difference between "contradicting canon" and "not liking" Forgotten Realms lore presented in a Spelljammer source. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 05:11:28
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I'm not sure if someone ever wrote about this before, but there we go: is a lycanthrope that is linked to the cycles of the moon transformed when the moon shows up during the daylight hours?
And another question, inspired by our discussions about spelljamming and the canon info about a colony of Leira worshippers in Selūne: I don't recall if there is a specific rule about lycanthropes there, but if not, how would it work? Maybe they transform wherever Toril is in the sky, or alternatively, they change when it's DAY there, so the moon is visible in Toril's sky.
What do you think?
Color me intrigued... in what product does it have Leiran worshippers located on Selune?
Realmspace. It's a Spelljammer supplement. The info on everything else in the sphere is great, but the lore concerning Toril, Selūne, and her Tears is problematic, at best. I'd happily consider that specific lore to be non-canon, but one of the web articles about the Sellplague referred to the illusion on the moon coming down -- and that's also from Realmspace.
I've largely assumed that the more problematic Realmslore in the Realmspace supplement is likely due to poor research and/or explorations made by those responsible for travelling beyond Toril and documenting what they've found out there.
I mean, we still see many locations beyond Faerūn itself which remain either poorly mapped or not completely explored. Why should the depths of Realmspace be any different?
It's not the other areas of Realmspace that are problematic, it's the treatment of Toril, the Tears, and Selūne that is problematic.
The Leirans on Selūne, for example. Yeah, I've figured out a way to explain that -- but it shouldn't be necessary to come up with the gymnastics of explaining Leira-worshippers and a giant illusion located on another deity's home turf.
Or the description of Nimbral as a major spelljamming port -- nothing in the lore about Nimbral even suggests such a thing. Nothing backs up Calimport or Waterdeep being major spelljamming ports, either.
The entry on the Tears says they simply popped into existence 4800 years ago. That's not backed up by Realmslore.
Or Caer Windlauer. An entire castle, and thousands of acres of land, disappear from an island, with no one noticing? And the assassins that the guy's family joined are described as being a potent, fear-causing bunch. Where in Realmslore is this group of assassins mentioned? Two trilogies, a sourcebook, and a module with plenty of extra lore -- we've got plenty of info on the Moonshaes, so this group should not be unknown.
All of these things are problematic. We have things that either contradict known Realmslore, or that are not backed up by any Realmslore. Yeah, I don't expect Realms material to cover Glyth, but I do expect a Spelljammer book talking about the Realms to be logical and not contradict canon. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 04:33:34
I've just completed a review of Realmspace, (been a while since I picked up this fantasitic supplement) and there is nothing problematic about the lore contained within. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Jan 2013 : 02:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I'm not sure if someone ever wrote about this before, but there we go: is a lycanthrope that is linked to the cycles of the moon transformed when the moon shows up during the daylight hours?
And another question, inspired by our discussions about spelljamming and the canon info about a colony of Leira worshippers in Selūne: I don't recall if there is a specific rule about lycanthropes there, but if not, how would it work? Maybe they transform wherever Toril is in the sky, or alternatively, they change when it's DAY there, so the moon is visible in Toril's sky.
What do you think?
Color me intrigued... in what product does it have Leiran worshippers located on Selune?
Realmspace. It's a Spelljammer supplement. The info on everything else in the sphere is great, but the lore concerning Toril, Selūne, and her Tears is problematic, at best. I'd happily consider that specific lore to be non-canon, but one of the web articles about the Sellplague referred to the illusion on the moon coming down -- and that's also from Realmspace.
I've largely assumed that the more problematic Realmslore in the Realmspace supplement is likely due to poor research and/or explorations made by those responsible for travelling beyond Toril and documenting what they've found out there.
I mean, we still see many locations beyond Faerūn itself which remain either poorly mapped or not completely explored. Why should the depths of Realmspace be any different? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 18:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I'm not sure if someone ever wrote about this before, but there we go: is a lycanthrope that is linked to the cycles of the moon transformed when the moon shows up during the daylight hours?
And another question, inspired by our discussions about spelljamming and the canon info about a colony of Leira worshippers in Selūne: I don't recall if there is a specific rule about lycanthropes there, but if not, how would it work? Maybe they transform wherever Toril is in the sky, or alternatively, they change when it's DAY there, so the moon is visible in Toril's sky.
What do you think?
Color me intrigued... in what product does it have Leiran worshippers located on Selune?
Realmspace. It's a Spelljammer supplement. The info on everything else in the sphere is great, but the lore concerning Toril, Selūne, and her Tears is problematic, at best. I'd happily consider that specific lore to be non-canon, but one of the web articles about the Sellplague referred to the illusion on the moon coming down -- and that's also from Realmspace. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 17:14:29
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I'm not sure if someone ever wrote about this before, but there we go: is a lycanthrope that is linked to the cycles of the moon transformed when the moon shows up during the daylight hours?
And another question, inspired by our discussions about spelljamming and the canon info about a colony of Leira worshippers in Selūne: I don't recall if there is a specific rule about lycanthropes there, but if not, how would it work? Maybe they transform wherever Toril is in the sky, or alternatively, they change when it's DAY there, so the moon is visible in Toril's sky.
What do you think?
Color me intrigued... in what product does it have Leiran worshippers located on Selune? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 15:59:15
How do lycanthropes respond when exposed to spells which "duplicate" moonlight, like Presper's Moonbow and various elfy moon-mithril magics? Spell descriptions might help determine whether lycanthropy is triggered by moonlight or triggered by lunar cycles. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 15:46:36
I believe the Adventures in Arcane Space boxed set covered lycanthropes being affected when they were off-world... And I don't remember where I read it, but I know I read something about werecritters with alternate triggers, too. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Jan 2013 : 13:18:18
I guess that makes sense, if such an event is possible on Toril of course. As far as I know, the time has no impact of Lycanthropes, only the moon cycle and its exposure, so daytime transformation is possible in theory. Such an event could be foreseen in advance, and is probably an important day for followers of Selune and Malar. I might actually use that... |
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