| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 21:53:03
SOMEWHERE I saw a reference to the exact year in which Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul took over most of Jergal's portfolio. Will some scribe please refresh my memory about that and the source of it? Many thanks in advance!
BTW, having begged Ed for three topics to explore in more depth on his own scroll, I ask here, rather than there, for those who know of such things to give us as much dirt as they can on the lives of BB&M before their ascensions. They must have been hellaciously powerful adventurers (in 3E, for example, Bane has more character levels than any other deity!), but except for the well-known story of how they attained divinity (if that's even true, as opposed to a parable) and the aforementioned Year of _____, we know almost nothing of their mortal lives.
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| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:02:47
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>The passages in Faiths & Pantheons in the adventure that has the two relics. Bane had the dagger before he became a deity >>and the three in the first line of text are Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul and as the passage implies, they were still mortal >>when they killed Borem.
Yes, but nothing indicates that their killing of Borem couldn't have happened in -450 or even -550 DR as I recall? The only thing it noted was that it was in the vicinity of the Kingdom of Jaamdath, which implies to a degree that it was before -255 (if one follows the assumption that it was a part OF the kingdome of Jaamdath).
Indeed. Remember, the details about the Lake being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath shouldn't be taken as completely specific. It's presented as a possibility only, as I noted earlier on pg. 1 of this scroll. Until GHotR either confirms or denies this, it's probably not a good idea to base all of the theories about the ascension of the Dark Three on the pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath tidbit.
And if that's the case... then the possibility that Bane's ascension occured after Jhaamdath's Fall [in -255 DR] and before the tidbit noted in Lands of Intrigue, which states that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul, exists.
quote:
<<Faiths & Avatars was one, as I recall.
Sage, do you remember what they were? I've reread the entry for the skull bowling, Bane's entry, Bhaal's entry, Xvim's entry, Myrkul's entry... and nothing indicates that it was after the fall of Netheril.
I'll have to check to be certain.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 03:46:20
>>The passages in Faiths & Pantheons in the adventure that has the two relics. Bane had the dagger before he became a deity >>and the three in the first line of text are Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul and as the passage implies, they were still mortal >>when they killed Borem.
Yes, but nothing indicates that their killing of Borem couldn't have happened in -450 or even -550 DR as I recall? The only thing it noted was that it was in the vicinity of the Kingdom of Jaamdath, which implies to a degree that it was before -255 (if one follows the assumption that it was a part OF the kingdome of Jaamdath).
<<However, from current sources, we know that Karsus did what he did because he wanted to stop the destruction of the <<Phaerimm, since they were draining Netheril. So, his event had really nothing to do with the three.
Not saying that he didn't plan on ascending for that purpose (fighting the Phaerimm and all). But what gave him the original idea? Could it be that he had heard that some upstarts had become divine? Could it be that he then heard about a fanciful story about a mage who became divine by stealing divine power from one of those upstarts in a magical accident? Did he think he could improve upon the process as a result? Was the fact that others had done it a piece of hubris that was always in the back of his mind? It doesn't really affect things that I'm doing overmuch, but it could help answer why he was so driven for this particular effect.
<<Faiths & Avatars was one, as I recall.
Sage, do you remember what they were? I've reread the entry for the skull bowling, Bane's entry, Bhaal's entry, Xvim's entry, Myrkul's entry... and nothing indicates that it was after the fall of Netheril.
As I was saying before, if he was only advancing single baneliches at a time every 50 or 60 years (almost like he was investing his divine energy in them... like backup batteries), then that becomes roughly between -730 DR and -380 DR... with an average of -555 DR, a few hundred years before the end of the empire, and long enough to have caught Karsus' interest I would think).
On a side note, I do find it of interest that Xvim's arising from Zhentil Keep was in 1368 DR, and Velsharoon's arising as a deity was in 1368. Velsharoon took on the alias of Mellifleur (a deity who had stolen divine power from Bane) at that time. Was Bane's and/or Xvim's re-arising possibly tied in the background to this "release" of Mellifleur (after all, Velsharoon partook of Talos' divine power in order to ascend, not Bane's). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 01:14:48
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
There were a few 2e passages also, but I can't remember the sources.
Faiths & Avatars was one, as I recall.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:11:43
The passages in Faiths & Pantheons in the adventure that has the two relics. Bane had the dagger before he became a deity and the three in the first line of text are Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul and as the passage implies, they were still mortal when they killed Borem.
There were a few 2e passages also, but I can't remember the sources.
However, from current sources, we know that Karsus did what he did because he wanted to stop the destruction of the Phaerimm, since they were draining Netheril. So, his event had really nothing to do with the three. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:02:03
>>Because there are passages that imply that they were still mortals before/during Netheril.
If its not a pain, I'd really be interested in this. Do you remember where they were? Basically, if Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul advanced up before Karsus' Folly, then perhaps that was a driving force for why he attempted what he did. Also, I'm wondering if the accident which created Mellifleur might have been the creation of one of these baneliches mixing with Mellifleur's attempt to turn into a lich at the same time.... and if this is also the case, might that also have been a driving force for Karsus. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 19:17:03
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, why do we implicitly say that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul could not have been BEFORE the fall of Netheril. If its because the Netheril boxed set doesn't mention them, perhaps its because it happened in the last few years of the empire. He was creating his Baneliches every 50 to 60 years according to the banelich template, and he created AT LEAST 35 of them that are recorded. That equates to roughly 1750 to 2100 years. If we say 1750, then that's -380 DR roughly.
Because there are passages that imply that they were still mortals before/during Netheril. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 19:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, why do we implicitly say that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul could not have been BEFORE the fall of Netheril. If its because the Netheril boxed set doesn't mention them, perhaps its because it happened in the last few years of the empire. He was creating his Baneliches every 50 to 60 years according to the banelich template, and he created AT LEAST 35 of them that are recorded. That equates to roughly 1750 to 2100 years. If we say 1750, then that's -380 DR roughly.
Unless he was creating multiples, at some point.... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 19:11:43
Just wondering, why do we implicitly say that Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul could not have been BEFORE the fall of Netheril. If its because the Netheril boxed set doesn't mention them, perhaps its because it happened in the last few years of the empire. He was creating his Baneliches every 50 to 60 years according to the banelich template, and he created AT LEAST 35 of them that are recorded. That equates to roughly 1750 to 2100 years. If we say 1750, then that's -380 DR roughly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 03:47:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR.
And just for more info, Saerloon's harbor is the result of Deep Netheril's destruction, more than a thousand years before Netheril's fall. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 02:59:19
Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR.
Given the -339 DR starting point, and the details about the Lake possibly being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath, that could possibly narrow the period of Bane's ascension to between Netheril's Fall in -339 DR and the Fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR.
Additionally, Eric offers this little tidbit...
"Implicit in your assumption is that the Lake of Burning Blood is a "real lake". I'd suggest that maybe it's a moveable lake (in other words, the lake is the "avatar" of Borem). Alternatively, it could be the lake is created by opening a blood-spewing portal. When the portal closes/moves, the lake drains away.
--Eric"
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 02:52:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
F&P places the Lake's possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor.
It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia.
No specific dates are offered.
When was Saerloon founded? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 02:45:18
F&P places the Lake's possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor.
It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia.
No specific dates are offered.
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 02:33:43
When was the Sembian city (Dont have access to my F&P)which is built over Borems Lake of Mud founded, if its earlier then -88 then we have another start date |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 23:33:53
It doesn't reveal much at all about the history of Bane, as I recall (other than the fact that he came from another world, which is an earthshattering detail), but it is a great novel in and of itself, especially if you are a fan of Storm Silverhand. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 18:29:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In the Calimshan supplement, a temple of Bane is cited as having been burned in the fires of 200 DR.
Indeed.
Though, that event ocures long after the -88 DR reference I noted above. So, we still need a source for Bane being active between -339 DR and -88 DR.
 Oops. Yes. Your date frames are better than that with which I came.
In the meantime, I have ordered Stormlight to see how much or how little it reveals.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:56:42
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In the Calimshan supplement, a temple of Bane is cited as having been burned in the fires of 200 DR.
Indeed.
Though, that event ocures long after the -88 DR reference I noted above. So, we still need a source for Bane being active between -339 DR and -88 DR.
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| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 19:55:22
In the Calimshan supplement, a temple of Bane is cited as having been burned in the fires of 200 DR. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 20:35:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
More history of Bane, btw, can be found in the Stormlight novel and we learn that he came from a different world/prime material/crystal sphere.
THAT is boss! I've never read Stormlight, but I think I'll buy it just for that bit of Realmslore. Macho graces! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 01:47:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
More history of Bane, btw, can be found in the Stormlight novel and we learn that he came from a different world/prime material/crystal sphere.
Yes, I remember that line. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:19:30
More history of Bane, btw, can be found in the Stormlight novel and we learn that he came from a different world/prime material/crystal sphere. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:14:28
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
SOMEWHERE I saw a reference to the exact year in which Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul took over most of Jergal's portfolio. Will some scribe please refresh my memory about that and the source of it? Many thanks in advance!
BTW, having begged Ed for three topics to explore in more depth on his own scroll, I ask here, rather than there, for those who know of such things to give us as much dirt as they can on the lives of BB&M before their ascensions. They must have been hellaciously powerful adventurers (in 3E, for example, Bane has more character levels than any other deity!), but except for the well-known story of how they attained divinity (if that's even true, as opposed to a parable) and the aforementioned Year of _____, we know almost nothing of their mortal lives.
Estimates suggest between 267 DR and 700 DR as the time of ascension for Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.
Though... Lands of Intrigue notes that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul. This tends to throw the above estimates out and suggests that Bane and Myrkul ascended earlier than 267 DR and after -339 DR which marks the Fall of Netheril.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by turox
I think Victor meant to send people to this link. BANE
Also that story may not be official cannon as it is found at the following link. Sorcerers.net
The killing of Borem is, I think, canonical, but I wasn't aware that BB&M were involved in it.
Faiths & Avatars has more on Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's ascension.
And the killing of Borem, and the possible involvement of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, is canon since it's referenced in the sections I mentioned, for F&P, above.
quote:
And, kuje, I'm fairly darned sure that I have seen an exact year given somewhere, but perhaps that was in a non-canonical source. (I'm going to check the Chronology of the Realms pdf file when I get home -- it may have been in a footnote there.)
As I recall, Brian's A Grand History of the Realms doesn't specifically mention any date regarding Bane's ascension.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:10:26
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
There's never been an exact year given but it was sometime after Netheril fell.
More can be found in Faiths & Pantheons in the adventure in the back of the sourcebook.
Also in Bane's entry.
There's also a few more details in the section for the Jathiman Dagger in Faith & Pantheons on pg. 169. The ascension of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul (as well as some Borem details) also come from Faiths & Pantheons -- the Mezeketh Isle map key section in "Places of Worship" and the sidebar on pg. 170.
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| turox |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 00:04:36
See learn something new everyday. Don't own Faiths & Avatar and really haven't done a whole lot of digging in my 3E F&P yet. Too much other stuff to read about. Only look up gods when someone asks me about them. Thanks for setting me straight Kuje.  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:58:59
I believe it's from a noncanon source then because there has never been a date nailed down on when exactly those three rose to deityhood. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by turox
I think Victor meant to send people to this link. BANE
Also that story may not be official cannon as it is found at the following link. Sorcerers.net
The killing of Borem is, I think, canonical, but I wasn't aware that BB&M were involved in it.
And, kuje, I'm fairly darned sure that I have seen an exact year given somewhere, but perhaps that was in a non-canonical source. (I'm going to check the Chronology of the Realms pdf file when I get home -- it may have been in a footnote there.) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:18:46
quote:
Originally posted by turox
I think Victor meant to send people to this link. BANE
Also that story may not be official cannon as it is found at the following link. Sorcerers.net
It is canon since it's straight out of Faiths & Avatar and Faiths & Pantheons. However, I'm a bit concerned because that is a lot of lore taken out of those sourcebooks. |
| turox |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 23:05:31
I think Victor meant to send people to this link. BANE
Also that story may not be official cannon as it is found at the following link. Sorcerers.net |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 22:34:37
In the indefinite past, Bane was a member of the Dead Three, a triad of mortals sworn to achieve godhood. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul forged an unholy pact, agreeing that they would work together to seek ultimate power, or die in the attempt. Over the length and breadth of the Realms they strode, seeking powerful magic and spells and defying death at every turn. No matter what monster they confronted or what spells they braved, the three mortals emerged unscathed at every turn. Eventually the trio destroyed one of the Seven Lost Gods, Borem, of the Lake of Boiling Mud, and they each seized a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves. The trio then journeyed into the Gray Waste and sought out the Castle of Bone to confront Jergal. After the three approached the god Jergal, threatened him for the godly powers. Jergal, all powerful to the point that he had long ago wished to step down the throne, asked: "who among you shall rule?", which the trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves. Jergal proposed that they solve this problem by bowling skulls of his liches. It turned out that Bane bowled the farthest, thus are able to choose his domain. He said: As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom., thus he claimed the portfolios of Tyranny, Hatred, and Strife, ascended as a greater deity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bane_(god) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 22:08:25
There's never been an exact year given but it was sometime after Netheril fell.
More can be found in Faiths & Pantheons in the adventure in the back of the sourcebook. |
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