| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Defender |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 12:01:49
Greetings and Hail!, I thank all forum members for reading this topic! I would like to inquire does anyone have information on the Tymora and Basheba history and how is it that there is a goddess of luck and victory and a Goddess of ill luck and mischief.
I say thanks to any member who replies. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 11:31:16
quote:
Originally posted by Shilo99
According to this site Daimon has recently roused himself to seek the reunification of Beshaba and Tymora to reform his beloved Tyche.
Lathander already tried that. They don't want to rejoin. |
| Shilo99 |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 07:22:21
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Fairly right but quite distinct from the version stated in Tymora's Lucknovel.
But it wasn't stated that Azuth had done an divination to see the corruption festering in Tyche. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption within her friend when her friend returned and yes, lashed out with Silvery light without hesitation that divided Tyche. But it wasn't stated that Tyche's powers division were supervised by the gods. The good part of Tyche that was pure emerged and already possesed power over good fortune while the corrupted version of Tyche already possessed power over evil fortune when she emerged.
As for their symbols, no offical explanation for that.
As to the symbols, I don't know of any official explanation.
When 3e was released, Tymora's symbol changed (with the addition of the clover leaves), and there was some debate on the net at the time as the real-world triteness of this clover symbol, and the very halfling-like portrayal of her visage on her symbol as shown in WotC sources. (Note many symbols became more elaborate upon the release of 3e...)
Also, an interesting non-(FR)canon addition to the story is Agathos Daimon, who was Tyche's mate in Greek mythology (Agatha Tyche was originally a Greek goddess, called Fortuna by the Romans, who governed the fortune and prosperity of a city, its destiny).
The 2e Planescape.net/Tieflings Exultation site includes a write-up of Daimon as an ancient deity of Netheril: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9974/daimon.htm >
According to this site Daimon has recently roused himself to seek the reunification of Beshaba and Tymora to reform his beloved Tyche. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:24:01
Fairly right but quite distinct from the version stated in Tymora's Lucknovel.
But it wasn't stated that Azuth had done an divination to see the corruption festering in Tyche. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption within her friend when her friend returned and yes, lashed out with Silvery light without hesitation that divided Tyche. But it wasn't stated that Tyche's powers division were supervised by the gods. The good part of Tyche that was pure emerged and already possesed power over good fortune while the corrupted version of Tyche already possessed power over evil fortune when she emerged.
As for their symbols, no offical explanation for that. |
| Lawk Xetter |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 17:24:41
Just making sure I have everything perfect....*Has a crush on Tyche*
Tyche and Lathander were lovers. He was her booty-call. He got all uppity, and started the Dawn Cataclysm, (Thus him being the God of "Dawn" and renewal.) His attempt to renew and reform the pantheon in His image. He failed, likely because Tyche thought he was being a borish snob, and gave Him a curse. Then She wandered off.
While walking, Tyche saw a beautiful rose, but it wouldn't be plucked. So She cursed it, and it's stem snapped in two, and She put it in her hair. Where, as a body-part of Moander, It had easy access to Her ear, thus Her brain, and began corrupting Her.
Then Azuth did the divinition thing, and foretold of the evil growing within Her, changing Her, and told His fellow Gods.
When Tyche innocently came to greet Her most trusted friends and godly companions, Selune cravenly blasted Tyche with moon magic, splitting Her body in twain.
Luckily (Heh) Tyche wasn't destroyed, merely divided, into Tymora, who inherited Tyches good nature, and flirtatious, seductiveways; and Beshaba, who gained the fouler nature of Tyche. The curses, and the damn sexy body to go with. They arose from Tyche's husk and the two fought instantly, until the surrounding Gods broke them up, whereupon Beshaba threw a tantrum, and a curse, then poofed.
They split Tyche's powers, and also Her symbol, Tymora taking the silver disk, Beshaba taking the red triangle. The pentacle disapearing with the past, and Beshaba adding some stag horns, (for a more sinister look I suppose.)
Then, much later, Tymora got egotistical, and added Her face to Her symbol, much like Sune, and some four leaf clovers. Dunno when that happened, or why.
So far, any attempts by worshippers to re-combine the Deities, or at least bring peace, has failed.
Do I have everything right? I really like the Gods of Luck, and want to know it all. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 16:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think what Gray is saying is that the Realms has always had those who worshipped fallen powers, but until now, we've not had any way to represent this in the rules.
Yes. Yes. But that's not what I'm saying because in 1e no such lore and ore text existed. I wasn't talking specifically about 2e or 3/3.5e. I was just talking about that npc that existed in 1e. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Apr 2005 : 07:44:24
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.
I actually don't see this as problematic. I think Tymora and Beshaba would probably both send representatives to the Fugue Plane to gather Tyche's petitioners. If Tyche was your patron, you would be free game to both Tymora's and Beshaba's reps. It would really have been the luck of the draw as to which side showed up to collect you first. And somehow I think Tyche's petitioners would appreciate that. 
I suppose that is possible, given the highly unlikely scenario to consider at that point. However, I tend to prefer more... certainty in the afterlife of my Realms. For characters playing in such a historical period, definition would need to form a significant part of their belief in their lives before passing on. And as such, the more inclined (in either one direction or the other) the path of luck took during your lifetime - whether good or ill - would reflect which deity your soul would interest.
But then, perhaps my opinion of this would change, should I ever run a campaign like this.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 23:01:41
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now.
Wrong! It didn't always exist and it's only been printed in one FR book for 3.5e.
I think what Gray is saying is that the Realms has always had those who worshipped fallen powers, but until now, we've not had any way to represent this in the rules. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 21:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now.
Wrong! It didn't always exist and it's only been printed in one FR book for 3.5e. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 19:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.
I actually don't see this as problematic. I think Tymora and Beshaba would probably both send representatives to the Fugue Plane to gather Tyche's petitioners. If Tyche was your patron, you would be free game to both Tymora's and Beshaba's reps. It would really have been the luck of the draw as to which side showed up to collect you first. And somehow I think Tyche's petitioners would appreciate that. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 19:04:34
The feat/phenomenon has always existed, it's just that the mechanic was not published in a sourcebook up til now. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 17:00:37
You want to know something even odder. There is a cleric in the Old Gray box, which is set in 1356ish, who worships Tyche!
Szellim Thunn, 4th level Cleric, Male Human, CG, Tyche, Member of The Hunt adventuring company, Cyclopedia of the Realms.
Now remember this was before that feat ever existed, so how is granting him his spells. :)
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 15:58:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.
As Wooly stated, I believe OPTION 2 seems more likely.
And as we see for option 1, we must consdier how would the Faithful have passed on after their deaths if both Tymora and Beshaba were answering for the now vacant position of Tyche? It is likely that this would have led to some significant chaos upon the Fugue Plane for a time, with Faithful wandering aimlessly unsure and uncalled to their final domains of rest. To some respect, it was either one or the other.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 11:37:35
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun.
I have to agree with Gray on this one, particularly option 2.
Besides, Myth Drannor was long fallen by then, and if the DC presaged its fall, then it had to have occurred earlier. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:48:02
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
I have two possible explanations:
1) Perhaps Tymora continued to answer prayers and grant spells to priests of Tyche for a number of years, decades possibly, after the split. Maybe her and Beshaba both answered to the name of Tyche during the period of adjustment.
2) Maybe Unsible was not aware of the split, perhaps even still believed Tyche was alive, or stubbornly refused to accept Tyche's death, and continued to receive spells by means of the Servant of the Fallen Feat as per Lost Empires of Faerun. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:38:52
I know that the second magister was appointed in 136 DR, IIRC. Assuming that the second magister was not appointed before Azuth's death or ascension, that is a good indication that Azuth died or ascended to godhood sometime by 136 DR.
I also know that Azuth is part of the story in Faiths & Avatars where he is present (come to mediate the dispute between Lathander & Tyche) at the moment that Selune strikes Tyche down and Tymora & Beshaba spring from her husk.
I had assumed that Azuth was already a god at this point. Is there some reference somewhere that he was still a mortal when that event occured?
If not then I see nothing to contradict a circa 700 Dawn Cataclysm. But maybe I am missing a crucial piece of information somewhere? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 07:23:30
Then how do you account for the reference to Dornal Silverhand visiting Unsible of Tyche and the Luckhouse in Neverwinter in c. 760 DR ("Seven Sisters", p.5-ish)?
-- George Krashos
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 03:57:38
There are references to Azuth not gaining divinity until during or after the Dawn Cataclysm... But Secrets of the Magister puts Azuth as the first Magister, around year 0 DR.
We know, though, that Tyche was still around after that -- she was worshipped in Athalantar in 3rd century DR, and Ed specifically states she had not yet split at that time. (Dragon 228)
So we have a serious problem with the time right there... Tyche was still around almost 300 years after Azuth became a god, so he couldn't have ascended during the Dawn Cataclysm.
Myth Drannor was founded in 261 DR. It's reasonable to assume Tyche was still around then, because if she split during the Dawn Cataclysm and the Dawn Cataclysm presaged (the wording I'm more familiar with) the Fall of Myth Drannor, then the city had to have been around during the DC.
I'll grant that whenever the split occurred, it may not have been noticed immediately by humanity. But I can not see it reasonably taken more than a few years for this to have become known to humanity -- simply because of how much influence the gods of the Realms have.
We have a source that pegs the schism in 8th century DR. We know it presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, which started in 712 and was over in 714. Since I can't see the schism taking all that long to happen after the split happened, then it's reasonable to assume that at the earliest, the Dawn Cataclysm happened in the late 690s. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 01:49:48
George, I am in turn stumped about the Azuth reference you are alluding to. What is the reference to Azuth that is not consistent with a circa 700 DR Dawn Cataclysm? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 Apr 2005 : 01:10:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 264 of the FRCS, under "Ages of Unity and Dissolution", in the third paragraph. It's a brief blurb about the Dawn Cataclysm.
Given that clue and the other facts we have, I think the DC can be pegged as happening between 700 DR and 714 DR -- it was supposed to have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, and it fell in 714.
Yeah, I remember that part of FRCS (which I don't have in front of me at the moment) - I practically re-wrote it. Originally, it was a big spiel on the Dawn Cataclysm that a few others nixed but the powers that be insisted on a reference to the dang thing being included.
I can't recall if the term used was 'presaged' or 'heralded'. I'm pretty sure it was the latter in earlier sources. And to comment on your dating, IMHO it's flawed because you are conveniently forgetting all of the references that don't suit a c. 700 DR dating (like the one with Azuth). Similarly, as has been said time and time again, dating purely godly events with mortal datings is something fraught with risk.
And going back to the 'presaged/heralded' wording, to give you another example: Alaundo's prophecy re the ghazneths was written over 1400 years before it actually happened and that too can be said to have presaged the event.
Similarly, the church of Tyche may well have fragmented in the 8th century of Dalereckoning but this event doesn't have to be linked chronologically with the DC. The DC may have occured centuries before but it took the mortal churches all that time to work out exactly what had happened and adjust their worship/religions accordingly.
Just my 2 cp on a topic that seems to have the fans obsessed for no good reason that I can fathom.
-- George Krashos
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| Kajehase |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 16:00:07
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me.
Why don't I get a thank you? Oh yes, my reply was dead wrong, sorry, do carry on |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 11:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The powers that be at WotC refuse to put a definite date on this, but we know that in early 8th century DR, the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba.
Just out of interest Wooly, where do we know that the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora nd Beshaba in the early 8th century DR?
-- George Krashos
Page 264 of the FRCS, under "Ages of Unity and Dissolution", in the third paragraph. It's a brief blurb about the Dawn Cataclysm.
Given that clue and the other facts we have, I think the DC can be pegged as happening between 700 DR and 714 DR -- it was supposed to have presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor, and it fell in 714. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 06:56:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The powers that be at WotC refuse to put a definite date on this, but we know that in early 8th century DR, the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba.
Just out of interest Wooly, where do we know that the church of Tyche schismed into the churches of Tymora nd Beshaba in the early 8th century DR?
-- George Krashos
|
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 16:18:09
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me.
You're welcome. Tymora smiled upon you via our replies. |
| Paec_djinn |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 08:05:47
As another example... (SPOILERS TO PRINCE OF LIES)
Mystra and the council of greater gods(forgot what they called themselves) seeked Ao's councel on Cyric's publishing of the Cyrinishad which could harm the Balance. Nonetheless, Ao allowed Cyric to proceed. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 06:44:37
Thank you, Wooly Rupert and Sirius Black for your replies. I thank you both for enlightening me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:48:08
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing.
Ao tends to let stuff slide unless the Balance is threatened. Selūne's action could have actually preserved the Balance. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:27:15
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing.
No, she didn't seek permission. Selune took action out of concern for her friend. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 03:16:43
Well pardon, I remembered it was said that Selune split the corrupted form of Tyche into two that eventually known as Tymora and Basheba but I wonder is she really authorised by Ao to do that? This I found a bit confusing. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:43:21
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Bah, I'd just woken up when I wrote that
Was it before coffee or before you had a hair of the dog that bit you? If so, no worries.
quote:
Mixing Myrkul and Moander together is annoying, though
At least you didn't say Mystra. Damn M's. Haven't we got enough Gods that start with that letter!
It could be worse... Murdane could still be around, making it yet another M... |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:36:57
And if I'm not mistaken, the legend usually runs that Tymora got all Tyche's bubbly personality, and Beshaba got all the looks.
And unless I'm TERRIBLY mistaken, this event (the splitting of Tyche) was part of the Dawn Cataclysm.
There's another thread devoted to some discussion on the topic:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=183&whichpage=1
Maybe some of the points there will be helpful. And here:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2522
For some official knowhow.
[quote="SiriusBlack"]Damn M's. Haven't we got enough Gods that start with that letter![/quote]
Don't forget Malar. We all know the beastlord takes a break from bathing in the blood of his terrified prey to cultivate his roses and his posies.
And Mielikki, same thing. Except about the "bathing in the blood" bit.
Oh and Mask and Milil. Big rose lovers, those two. And Moradin for those dwarves (hurrah!). Not to include monstrous deities and beast cults. M's just a keeper.
Cheers |
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