| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 13:18:21
In another post located here, Branmakmuffin had began a discussion concerning the usage of Firearms in (A)D&D. While the discussion has a lot of interesting points about the usage of firearms in a general fantasy setting, I want to take this discussion one step further, and talk about the actual real and present threat of firearms in FR.
While reading Faiths and Pantheons, I came across an interesting portion of text in Gond's entry on page 25. It detailed the problems the church was creating for rulers across the Realms by their (the church) introduction of smokepowder and firearms. The text says that these rulers view these weapons as a challenge to their authority. It states -
quote:
Most view such weapons as a threat to their authority as they approximate the power of a wizard's spells yet are useable by commoners who are not invested in supporting the status quo.
I think it is interesting to try and extrapolate from this what the overall effect the introduction of this kind of technology will have on the Realms.
I also think that when you combine this development with the overall dogma of the church, the potential of use becomes great indeed.
Thoughts?,
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Elrond Half Elven |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 22:46:17
I was reading through anxiously expecting what kuji posted to have been posted much earlier... i.e. smokepowders magical (at least in 2nd Edition).
I cannot see Commoners walking around with smokepowder weapons; mainly because the smokepowder it's self is so expensive iirc 3000gp for 10 shots... hmm if a Giff cannot afored enought them a commoner certianly cannot... saying that Giffs never have enought!
Hanx
Elrond |
| Just |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 19:02:46
I must congratulate you for the theme, it's very interesting!
As for my opinion I must say the only reason I wouldn't want weapons of this type in the FR it's because, many rules would have to be created to deal with weapons of this type!
As in the other aspects, I would say that being whatever the world, Mankind is always looking to develop new technologies! And I see smokepowder weapons in Faerun as only a new technology! But one would say that this being a world where magic rules the development of technology may be done differently! Magic take's much of the effort of most sages in Toril and it's considered a technology by itself!!!
My reasons are only metagaming one's! Most of all as from my experience, these weapons are not so much powerfull as swords, bows or any other weapon that already exist in faerun. A bomb of smokepowder would be in my belief not as powerfull as a wizard's fireball. Second the example of the musket, in my belief for a peasant it would be much easier to master a bow or crossbow, where a musket, requires much more training, like knowing how to load a musket(The correct amount of powder, how the powder works, the bullet, the cover, the fuse, the push of the fire, etc...) In one of my campaigns the character would always have to have different feats to use such a weapon(for example Point blank shot would not work etc)... So this would mean that a new set of rules would have to be created for this kind of weapon, which would complicate things! Then would come another question, how would magic interect with this type of weapon. Most spellcasters would have to come about with new spells to counteract or to enchant this type of weapons. At a whole beside the clear need for a new batch of rules, this type of weapon, wouldn't change much the face of faerun. Wizards and wise rulers being cunning would come up with clever ways to discourage the use of this weapon, but the fact that these weapons exist can give room to some interesting campaign opportunities!! |
| khorne |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:13:25
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In the Realms, Gond needn't be the only Power interested in smokepowder weaponry.
Why spend thousands of gold pieces on a cannon when free-lance mages are available for a fraction of that price to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts? Cheap rockets, fire spears, and bombs and grenades are a different matter, but their usefulness is primarily as weapons of "shock and awe" or as incendiaries in a siege.
Ok, I sniped a bit.
Unapproachable East pg 55, Thayan Bombards
The only mention I have of them in 2rd material had them as smokepowder cannons.
UE does not mention the smokepowder though.
Smokepowder Cannons in the hands of the Red Wizards... hmmm.
I finally got the Spelljammer boxed set and was confronted by a marvelous magical answer to mortars: reverse gravity cast upon a cannonball!
That sounds really brutal. I can imagine their faces when the cannonball suddenly turns back towards them....... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 20:13:43
Well gunpowder doesn't work in FR, so says the 1e and 2e campaign box sets. Other items from earth don't as well. Smokepowder isn't the same as gunpowder either, since one is magical and the other isn't.
Ed, I think, came up with that no earth tech rule because some of his PC's have been to earth. The Knights of Myth Drannor have, for example. :) Plus Elminster, Laeral, Qilue, etc, have as well. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 20:00:02
quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In the Realms, Gond needn't be the only Power interested in smokepowder weaponry.
Why spend thousands of gold pieces on a cannon when free-lance mages are available for a fraction of that price to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts? Cheap rockets, fire spears, and bombs and grenades are a different matter, but their usefulness is primarily as weapons of "shock and awe" or as incendiaries in a siege.
Ok, I sniped a bit.
Unapproachable East pg 55, Thayan Bombards
The only mention I have of them in 2rd material had them as smokepowder cannons.
UE does not mention the smokepowder though.
Smokepowder Cannons in the hands of the Red Wizards... hmmm.
I finally got the Spelljammer boxed set and was confronted by a marvelous magical answer to mortars: reverse gravity cast upon a cannonball! |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 19:55:15
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
(snip)
As far as smokepowder itself is concerned, I make it illegal and extremely expensive (except for Gondites who know how to make it), which makes it a rarity in our campaigns.
That's sensible. I can imagine governments large and small joining together (openly or not) in INTERPOL-type organizations to eradicate the illicit smoke powder trade. Somewhere or other, though, there will be some state or organization (maybe Lantan or some cult or secret society or other) manufacturing it in secret and then unleashing an army of smoke powder armed troops on its neighbors, a threat which might or might not be met by some grand alliance of otherwise enemy states, united by a desire to resist the incursions of smoke powder. There could be a lot of high level role-playing involved in such a scenario, whether for the secretive powder makers or their more conservative enemies. In a long-term campaign this could be used by a DM to explain the formation of some new league or alliance or the transformation of an existing one into a permanent confederation or imperium.
On the other hand, if an island country like Lantan broke the ban on powder and used it to eradicate piracy, would any of the continental nations fight them? They might take a laissez-faire attitude ... until the powder-using country showed up off their coasts with a fleet of cannon.
Smoke powder use is extremely hazardous in the Phlogiston (the area between the crystal spheres). Some space-going society which doesn't use smoke powder may be called upon by countries fighting the spread of smoke powder to attack a "rogue state" from above -- a hard direction to defend. One ought also to remember that the Celestial Empire uses smoke powder and also has an airborne navy; they could be a major spoiler in anything which Faerun does, if they choose the T'ang path of empire in the West. (There would also be a wealth of role-playing opportunities in a Shou dynasty which decides to take the late Ming and Tokugawa path of turning inward and "giving up the gun.")
I think the cork is out of the genie's bottle as far as smoke powder is concerned. Even if one decrees that it simply doesn't exist in one's own Realms, one might be faced with a situation I have in my campaign -- an Earthling who knows enough about gunpowder to make it (but who doesn't at present because that would threaten his own high-powered magery) may gate or otherwise be transported to one's Realms. A DM under whom I played years ago dealt with that by decreeing an alteration in the physics of his own game world -- gunpowder didn't work there, and there was a possibility that knowledge of it might be erased from the mind of an off-worlder going planet-side.
My personal preference (if it isn't already obvious!) is to deal with smoke powder, allowing it to appear and then either incorporating it into a military campaign or role-playing attempts to eradicate it. That's my preference, but let each DM determine his or her own path. As it is written, "It's your Realms." |
| AlacLuin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 00:13:55
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
In the Realms, Gond needn't be the only Power interested in smokepowder weaponry.
Why spend thousands of gold pieces on a cannon when free-lance mages are available for a fraction of that price to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts? Cheap rockets, fire spears, and bombs and grenades are a different matter, but their usefulness is primarily as weapons of "shock and awe" or as incendiaries in a siege.
Ok, I sniped a bit.
Unapproachable East pg 55, Thayan Bombards
The only mention I have of them in 2rd material had them as smokepowder cannons.
UE does not mention the smokepowder though.
Smokepowder Cannons in the hands of the Red Wizards... hmmm.
|
| Xysma |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 14:36:41
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Firearms are unreliable, one of my players really wanted to use a gun, so I let him. The first time he used it, it backfired on him. Guns take as long to load as a heavy crossbow, but a heavy crossbow won't misfire and blow up in your face. I see firearms as nothing more than a novelty that magic users look down upon as inferior, and warriors look down upon as a sign of weakness. As far as smokepowder itself is concerned, I make it illegal and extremely expensive (except for Gondites who know how to make it), which makes it a rarity in our campaigns.
WOTC did away with the misfire in 3/3.5e. :)
Not in my world!  |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 19:23:49
quote:
Originally posted by Jaysen Darclyght
(snip)
There is also the repeating crossbow. Take smokepowder away and leave a civilization with a need for an advanced mode of killing its enemies, and the crossbow will evolve. For my adventure, I had the antagonist race use automatic crossbows. They work with the use of springs and locking mechanisms attached to the bow arms and allow (in theory) for a clip to be rapidly used without much difficulty. So guns are not necessarily the only problem FR might encounter. There are other alternatives, given the chance any of them might equal firearms in destructive and political power.
If there are any flaws in my argument, please point them out for me to improve upon.
I have recently debated allowing a Bow of Storing into my campaign. A 50-round magazine in a bow which can be fired repeatedly with no danger of hanging fire or backfiring represents as much or more killing potential than two companies of musketeers. A few crack shots with such bows could decimate a legion, particulary if one disregarded the crippling limitations on range and rate of fire in 3E and reverted to the far more realistic standards of 2E. If the arrows were tagged as vectors for Lightning or Fireballs they would be as devastating as cannon.
With weapns like that in a campaign, the only advantage which firearms have over them is that it takes less than a day's training to teach someone how to load, aim, fire, and clean a gun, but many years to train an archer, who is therefore an extremely valuable and difficult to replace resource (unlike gunners). Assassinating a few of a ruler's best archers might cripple his military, but dozens or hundreds of gunners would need to be eliminated to deal a comparable blow.
The gunne debate also overlooks the possibility that someone will eventually realize that smokepowder explosives have non-military uses. Mining and roadbuilding is vastly easier if explosives precede musclepower. Even in magic-loving Thay explosives will catch on as soon as the tharcions realize that they can extract far more gold (and far more quickly) with explosives blasting tunnels than with slaves digging them. Explosives won't take long to impress the people of the Underdark with their usefulness as a means to make tunnels -- or to destroy them; and it isn't difficult to imagine Kossuth and Gruumbar taking an interest in explosives as soon as they start showing that Smokepowder and alchemical concotions can be as effective as a large elemental. |
| webmanus |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 18:30:27
If I recall corectly, Gond did come with gifts to Cyric ... and those gifts were firearms ... Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:28:38
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Firearms are unreliable, one of my players really wanted to use a gun, so I let him. The first time he used it, it backfired on him. Guns take as long to load as a heavy crossbow, but a heavy crossbow won't misfire and blow up in your face. I see firearms as nothing more than a novelty that magic users look down upon as inferior, and warriors look down upon as a sign of weakness. As far as smokepowder itself is concerned, I make it illegal and extremely expensive (except for Gondites who know how to make it), which makes it a rarity in our campaigns.
WOTC did away with the misfire in 3/3.5e. :) |
| Xysma |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 17:17:43
I believe that Mystra and her followers will continue to thwart the spread of smokepowder throughout the Realms. Gondites also work to keep smokepowder under control, since they would lose much of their power if smokepowder became readily available to commoners. Combine this with the fact that many rulers are likely to ban smokepowder because of the fears alluded to in this thread. All this considered, I don't really see smokepowder weapons becoming too prominent in the Realms. Having played a Techsmith of Gond, I can attest to the fact that smokepowder grenades aren't all they're cracked up to be. When the radius of the explosion exceeds the range of the grenade, you're asking for trouble. Firearms are unreliable, one of my players really wanted to use a gun, so I let him. The first time he used it, it backfired on him. Guns take as long to load as a heavy crossbow, but a heavy crossbow won't misfire and blow up in your face. I see firearms as nothing more than a novelty that magic users look down upon as inferior, and warriors look down upon as a sign of weakness. As far as smokepowder itself is concerned, I make it illegal and extremely expensive (except for Gondites who know how to make it), which makes it a rarity in our campaigns. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 08:55:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I think that some king, someplace, is going to need a whole lot of battle-power, and is going to turn to smokepowder. It doesn't need to be in guns, you know. There's a wonderful alternate history story where the first weapon they make with the gunpowder, since they have no tech base to support guns yet, is the grenade.
(snip)
And black-powder rockets are really easy to make, even without plastics. They'd be expensive, since things like balsa wood aren't exactly common either, but it's still possible. Especially in the Realms (see? not straying yet), where you can use magic. Some knowledge of aerodynamics is necessary, of course, if you actually want to hit your target. Part of that aiming can be done with a metal tube, such as bronze, pointed where you want it to go. Instant mortar. Or shoulder it, and you get a cast-bronze bazooka -- which, at its basic, was nothing more than a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher. You still need to fix the problem of mid-air swerving (which is a pretty big problem, I can tell you), but the tube helps.
Defenses are tricky against gunpowder weapons, of course, but not insurmountable. Later castles were designed and built to withstand cannonfire -- I don't have any records of them under attack, though, so I don't know how they did. But the softer the rock, the better against projectiles. It's harder to build, and the trade-off isn't as great as against a trebuchet like the famous War Wolf. Something to do with ballistics that I haven't studyied, I'm afraid. Grenade shields are easy as well -- they're basically angled shutters. Not so good against bullets, but it works.
Now, I'd like to see how this sort of thing might work into the Realms. But only as an experiment. I think it would change the flavor of our favorite D&D world too much. However, I've put a lot of thought into this sort of thing, and I love shaking things up. It's part of why I write fan fiction.
(Long reply, based on Earth history, and mostly relevant)
The first gunpowder weapons made in China were "fire spears," spears with packets of burning gunpowder attached. Not only could the spear impale and kill, but the gunpowder could inflict burns and blind by its flash. Such a contrivance requires very little technological sophistication and the black powder needn't be as carefully balanced and evenly milled as gunpowder.
Later, during the Mongol invasion (or the Tuigan invasions, to think in Realms terms), better techniques allowed such gizmos as a rocket which shot along the ground, spewing sparks as it made its way through besieging infantry or oncoming cavalry. Grenades attached to ballista bolts or bombs flung by catapults were an easy innovation.
In the Realms, Gond needn't be the only Power interested in smokepowder weaponry. One of the first adaptations of greandes and bombs was as vectors for biological weapons. Talona would certainly be interested in a technology which can imbed dung and rotting or diseased meat into the flesh of soldiers along with toxic sherds of clay or glass tainted with smokepowder residue (and whatever alchemical villanies the twisted mind can conceive). A clay jar enchanted as a Contagion vector and packed with smokepowder could deliver disease in a large burst area when the powder exploded.
The development of guns came centuries after the first use of black powder as a weapon. It's quite possible that -- barring outside input -- Toril may "give up the gun" because guns are too dangerous to use unless they are carefully crafted (at a prohibitive price). In Earth experience rockets and bombs were not terribly effective until the devlopment of guns led to better powders. Why spend thousands of gold pieces on a cannon when free-lance mages are available for a fraction of that price to hurl fireballs and lightning bolts? Cheap rockets, fire spears, and bombs and grenades are a different matter, but their usefulness is primarily as weapons of "shock and awe" or as incendiaries in a siege.
One very practical use of smokepowder (mirroring Earth practice) would be in "thunder" weapons, big bang makers to shake the ground and make loud noises. Such weapons can frighten horses or other riding beasts ... and break the concentration of spellslingers. A fifty gold piece rocket which causes an enemy spellcaster to waste spells or (even better!) fumble a spell would be cheap at twice the price. If spellcasters know that such bang weapons may also be carrying biologicals, they may choose to simply take cover (or even take a powder) when facing an enemy armed with smokepowder weapons. The disarming of their spellcasters might cripple an army; mercenaries suddenly deprived of magical support may refuse to fight. Faced with such a possibility, what general wouldn't want to be certain that his forces are also equipped with smokepowder weapons just to even the score? Never mind the Zhentarim -- the next big wave of villainous merchants may be peddlers of smokepowder weapons, happily selling arms to anyone who can afford to buy them, and making certain that rivals are kept informed of the weapons purchases of their enemies, so that they will buy more smokepowder weapons in an effort to have more than their enemies -- a global arms race may well take place in the 1380s DR.
The counterpart of any arms race would be a race to build fortifications. As has already been pointed out, the best defense against cannon fire is low, thick, soft walling. If cannon don't catch on, however, fortification engineers will realize that walls need to be built high and hard to prevent rockets from passing into the fortress beyond. If cannon become common, "star" fortifications with many projecting towers to allow for crossfire will be the way to go. If cannon don't catch on, straight lengths of walls which allow for massed archery and easy mobility of spellcasters on the battlements will be the way to go (or rather, the way to continue building castles). Defensive cannon use is most effective with multiple forts laying down cannon fire over as much area as possible. If cannon remain prohibitively expensive (or deadly to cannon crews if made cheaply), the current practice of building a few powerful castles will be the best defensive policy. If Toril follows Earth's history, a few families or guilds who have expertise in fortress building will dominate the market.
Unfortunately for defenders, once cannon become effective siege weapons, fortresses become astronomically expensive ... or rapidly lapse into obsolesence. Given that castles in high magic worlds already have to be hideously expensive to defend against magical attacks, scrying, and teleporting attackers, adding new defensive measures against cannon could bankrupt even a rich country. Massive, mobile armies raised by conscription (or expensive crack mercenary forces) will prove to be more effective and more economical than fixed fortifications.
Unfortunately, large, mobile armies are an excellent vector for epidemic diseases (especially when they settle down in enemy territory for a siege), so Talona will find herself in a win-win situation: smokepowder weapons spreading poisons and diseases, and the mass armies raised to defend against enemies with smokepowder weapons serving as disease vectors themselves. (Larger armies will also add worship to all the war gods, putting them in Gond's corner, too. With a large pantheon dependent on worshippers, smokepowder will likely be encouraged by war gods, no matter what "gallant" and "heroic" commanders may think of smokepowder weapons and the "cowards" who use them; this will lead to a different cultural perception of smokepowder weapons on Toril than existed on Earth towards gunpowder weapons.)
Currently, flying attackers are among the biggest threats to defenders on the ground. Curiously, with rockets at their disposal ground troops will likely have little to fear from airborne attackers -- hippogriffs and griffins are unlikely to consent to fly over people who are launching rockets with red glare and bombs bursting in air at them. Even dragons will be hard pressed to overfly troops with rockets -- whatever the elemental or force vulnerability of a dragon, some form of rocket will be able to deliver it in an exploding burst in sufficiently close proximity to discourage all but the most stubborn (or foolhardy) dragon. Magical beasts and dragons may rapidly become endangered species on a Toril armed to the teeth with rockets, bombs, and grenades. But that's not a concern of Gond's. |
| Cyric |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 21:50:18
true bu i dont like the way its going what wil be next trains and cars, i hope it dont come to that.
Seriously though Most governmental enities are cracked and corrupt anyways so it really wouldn't matter who is in power as nothing would be done anyways.
You coulden have said it moore right. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 05:50:53
Your right sage... If human beings agreed on everything it'd be worse than boring... It'd be Canada..   
Seriously though Most governmental enities are cracked and corrupt anyways so it really wouldn't matter who is in power as nothing would be done anyways .
As for the church of gond and Gunns (or however it is said in realms speak). There really isn't than may gripes I have with it... It is rather unfortunate in some ways but not others. Gunnes provide an added threat to people (as the common man needs none of the skills, or training to use gunns). But it also allows the common man to finally be on equal level/equal grounds with a mage or wizard. Truthfully it's all up to how one looks at it. Gond only makes it, like Ohgma, it's really not the device or informaion. It's HOW it's applied. A spell, an invention, a power source, none of these are not evil but can be used for evil things (Fireball, Gunns, Atomic energy can=Nuke *roughly*.... Of course my personal fav combines all three; the first level 13 spell: Bigby's Crushing Tactical Nuke )
But we can take Amn as an example, since (as far as I know or remember) Magic is a Banned thing punishable by various horrific ends... well not really but more or less. On can say magic is bad, but then gunns would have to be banned too, but it's techinically magic, but not really so it goes through the Amnish red tape and get's lost, then found, then readdressed, then lost again... recycled, goes back for rewording then.. well you get the idea... now what was I going to say?  
Well anyways it's not really Gond's fault or his church's fault. They are following their God's dogma, and as I've said eleswhere, a god is static, unchanging, thus not his fault either.. it simply is...
And the Play rolls on... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 17:05:09
It's okay. I just vented a few of my own frustrations that way. While I really don't tie myself to any political party, I find that I agree with the Republicans more than the Democrats. Or perhaps it's because I disagree with so much of the Democratic platform, and in this country it's basically one or the other?
Well, the conservative/libral, D/R argument doesn't really come into it. It's all what I think. Abortion is evil. It's a fundamental right to bear your own personal arms and be trained in their use; but personal arms means a pistol or rifle or shotgun, not something that needs a tripod or has a blast radius. Cigarettes are disgusting, and should be banned. Homosexuality shouldn't be affected by law, even though I don't like it myself.
*sigh* Well, if human beings agreed on everything, I guess it'd be pretty boring after a while, huh?
'Nuff said. Back to the Realms. I've assumed on Alaundo's munificent generosity too much as it is. |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 16:32:37
Forgive me, Bookwyrm.
I'll try to limit the references to Real life, but I only do because, tis all I know, and well, we write, and I guess argue, what we know.
Again, a thousand thousand apologies. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 14 Nov 2003 : 16:00:05
Why why WHY do people insist on talking about Real Life instead of the Realms in this matter?
Cyric said in the Realms. He didn't say anything about whether he thought they were evil or not.
For those who know what it is, I'm a strong, strong supporter of the Second Amendment. So is my brother, and he's a cop who sees just what people with guns do. I cringe in frustration when people say "I don't believe in guns." Not only does belief come into it, but you can't simply wish violence away by blaming the instument.
Instead, I think there should be gun education. Heck, we've got sexual education. I'd like to see some schools offer courses in firearms. Then those kids would see what guns do and how they work. Most gun violence comes from people thinking of handguns as magic wands or something. Teaching them the reality takes that away and gives them more respect for what guns can do if carelessly used.
My niece will go through that when she grows up. In the meantime, she knows she's not supposed to play with guns or anything like them. Her father takes gun safety seriously. Even though both his personal pistol and the department-issued firearm are locked up in a fireproof safe, along with every speck of amunition, he knows what happens when kids with no idea what a gun is start playing with one.
I saw on TV how a mother blamed a gun for her son getting himself shot. He was just a kid, who found a gun and accidentally shot himself in the foot when he picked it up. If he had been properly taught about guns, he would have known not to pick it up; he would have known to call a grownup, who would call the police. But no: his mother wanted to "protect" him. Now that kid will have a limp for the rest of his life, and she blames it on the gun. |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 12:25:41
Cyric, I have a scenario for you.
You are a common farmer, and an invading army of oppressive tyrants is coming your way to stamp out resistance to their control. They use swords, shields, bows, magic, etc. You have a family with a few sons, all with a flintlock. You have experience hunting in the wilderness, so you can pull of a sucessful guerilla war for a while. Would you still think guns are wrong?
If they're wrong, then guess what, the U S of A wouldn't be here, because the scenario is quite like the American Revolution. Guns can be destructive, but they are necessary sometimes to tilt the favor for the side of justice. They are a necessary evil. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 08:01:27
Cyric has no official worshiper base anywhere on Amasaria. There are small outsider cults, and strange conclaves who worship alien gods (alien at least with regards to the Amasarian pantheon), scattered across much of the main continent. The only 'known' and open church of Cyric on Amasaria exists in the Magistracy of Ti, but given that realm's proclivity for all manner of strange and bizarre belief systems, that is no surprise.
However, in the Black Lands' domains of the Lich Lords, that is another matter entirely. Cyric has a strong base of power in those realms - the only problem being, the Black Lands do not actually exist on Amasaria...it is really a demi-plane that occupies the same space the actual land would occupy.
|
| Cyric |
Posted - 12 Nov 2003 : 18:57:41
just asking is Cyric in your world ?? and firearms are wrong and i wish they where never taken in to the realms |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Oct 2003 : 05:11:50
William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
Thank you Sage for the info but I would love to hear more of your homebrew world Amasaria.Have you posted anything here about it?
I've posted snippets here and there on this forum from time to time, mostly as references to my campaign setting. But for the most part, my website (which is still down) had most of the information about the world, and it's associate crystal sphere.
What exactly do you wish to know about it?.
|
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 29 Oct 2003 : 03:49:09
Sage said-
Quote:
Not all campaign setting obey this law, at least as far as I know. I do not think the Scarred Lands campaign uses firearms (although I don't have all of those tomes), and Monte Cook's new world doesn't appear to have made much concession for firearms.
Also, my main homebrew campaign world, Amasaria, has not yet reached the level of technology necessary for the production of firearms.
_____________________________________________________________________
William:
Thank you Sage for the info but I would love to hear more of your homebrew world Amasaria.Have you posted anything here about it?
_____________________________________________________________________
Jaysen said-
Quote:
Forgive me Will.
It is a truth that not all game worlds are at a technological level that would allow for the creation of firearms. However, like i previously said, firearms aren't necessary for widespread destruction. Magic can do it, and so can the Ancient Chinese. Even when they didn't use gunpowder weapons, they would frequently raise armies of a few tens of thousands up to a few hundreds of thousands. Armed with bows, spears, swords, crossbows, pikes, etc. many a man was left dead on the ground. Thanks though to strategy, else China would have probably wiped itself out.
Point of this?
Large enough populations, enough feudal lords, a medieval industrial infrastructure, and legal drafts, all equal mass destruction without firearms. Humanity is so peaceful, isn't it?
_____________________________________________________________________
William:
Thats true magic can probably cause more damage than a minigun and as you said,"The Chinese did it without guns or magic".Magic is more fun to me and suits the Realms better. |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 12:39:49
Forgive me Will.
It is a truth that not all game worlds are at a technological level that would allow for the creation of firearms. However, like i previously said, firearms aren't necessary for widespread destruction. Magic can do it, and so can the Ancient Chinese. Even when they didn't use gunpowder weapons, they would frequently raise armies of a few tens of thousands up to a few hundreds of thousands. Armed with bows, spears, swords, crossbows, pikes, etc. many a man was left dead on the ground. Thanks though to strategy, else China would have probably wiped itself out.
Point of this?
Large enough populations, enough feudal lords, a medieval industrial infrastructure, and legal drafts, all equal mass destruction without firearms. Humanity is so peaceful, isn't it? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 07:47:20
William of Waterdeep said -
quote:
I wish Guns and Gunpowder had never been added to the Realms but I guess it is one of those things that is destined to happen in any world that has humans.
Not all campaign setting obey this law, at least as far as I know. I do not think the Scarred Lands campaign uses firearms (although I don't have all of those tomes), and Monte Cook's new world doesn't appear to have made much concession for firearms.
Also, my main homebrew campaign world, Amasaria, has not yet reached the level of technology necessary for the production of firearms.
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| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 23:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by Jaysen Darclyght
Mr. Waterdeep, ArionElenim, you are both right I think. Mankind seems to have few things in mind. Survival, control, and destructive power. Regardless of the means, humans will always want weapons that can do more damage and kill more people in less time. It is in our nature. Smokepowder may have been a mistake to have been added to the realms but still, such a thing was inevitable.
Mr. Waterdeep????? Please,I may be old but I would rather you call me Will or William.I am reminded of my age when I look in the mirror.
Now as for your post yes,Basically we are creatures of destruction and always have and always will seek a more powerful weapon.It is sad but true enough that we can only hold it in check but never completely stop it. |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 12:38:17
Mr. Waterdeep, ArionElenim, you are both right I think. Mankind seems to have few things in mind. Survival, control, and destructive power. Regardless of the means, humans will always want weapons that can do more damage and kill more people in less time. It is in our nature. Smokepowder may have been a mistake to have been added to the realms but still, such a thing was inevitable. |
| William of Waterdeep |
Posted - 24 Oct 2003 : 05:25:08
I wish Guns and Gunpowder had never been added to the Realms but I guess it is one of those things that is destined to happen in any world that has humans.Like LotR Two Towers where Saruman made the explosive to blow a hole in the wall of Helms Deep. |
| Arion Elenim |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 18:25:59
I can see the value in them...particularly for the wizard caught off guard...
A handy flintlock could definitely be helpful when Banthwerpus Figglesnarf the wizard is suddenly surprised by Orcbasher McWizardstomper midspell... |
| Jaysen Darclyght |
Posted - 23 Oct 2003 : 15:13:22
This is a subject that always perplexes me. Let me first state that I am a fan of firearms. However, that bias is not a limiting one. I am capable of adapting to mainstay FR life, and I have, as a alcohol loving rogue. Still, the introduction of firearms is a tricky topic. In my own experience in adventure writing, I have reluctantly tailored my writings to accomodate some friends who are not friends of guns. But then, who needs guns? Crossbows are quite similar in function and operation (to a point), and can be just as deadly. In the real world, the Catholic Church banned them from European wars! There is also the repeating crossbow. Take smokepowder away and leave a civilization with a need for an advanced mode of killing its enemies, and the crossbow will evolve. For my adventure, I had the antagonist race use automatic crossbows. They work with the use of springs and locking mechanisms attached to the bow arms and allow (in theory) for a clip to be rapidly used without much difficulty. So guns are not necessarily the only problem FR might encounter. There are other alternatives, given the chance any of them might equal firearms in destructive and political power.
If there are any flaws in my argument, please point them out for me to improve upon. |
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