| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Nov 2007 : 16:37:40
Yup, I said "failure".
Okay, so we only know a little of what's coming. But here's a couple of things I've noted.
First, from Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, page 4, boldfacing mine:
quote:
In –700 DR, while she was contributing to the Roll of Years, the seer known as Augathra the Mad began having dark visions. The Book of the Black was the result of those horrifying prophesies. Tormented by the Black Chronology she saw woven between the years, Augathra began wandering Faerûn, slowly being driven insane and earning her moniker.
After years of being lost, the Book of the Black came into the possession of the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower, who retrieved it from the Fane of Shadows in 684 DR. Inspired by the Book of the Black and their own ability to see the future, the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower deduced a coming weakness of Shar and penned their observations in a second tome, the Leaves of One Night.
Shar immediately cursed the Diviners’ writings, and shortly thereafter, thieves in the employ of the Church of Shar stole the Diviners’ copy of the Book of the Black, as well as the only copy of the Leaves of One Night.
We also know of the Black Chronology, from Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave. The intro of it seems to indicate that the starting date of the Black Chronology wasn't known until it actually kicked off, in 1352. The Black Chronology only goes up to 1385, the Year of the Revelation -- more commonly known as the Year of Blue Fire, when the Spellplague kicks off.
We know that Shar controls the Shadow Weave. We know from Ed that if the Weave goes kaput, so does the Shadow Weave -- because you can't have a shadow without it being a shadow of something. And we know that the Weave is soon to exit, stage left, because of the Spellplague. So that means the Shadow Weave, which Shar was counting on as a source of power, will go bye-bye. Mystra is tied to the Weave, and it's not unlikely that Shar is tied to the Shadow Weave.
So Shar is going to lose a source of her power, and it happens in the same year that is the apparent ending date of the Black Chronology.
With this string of possibly coincidental facts and suppositions, it is possible that the whole mess is going to backfire in Shar's face. It could cause her a major loss of power -- or it could be something as extreme as seeing Shar fall and be replaced.
Okay, my wild speculations are done. Run with them!  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 10:56:58
Well said Simbul. |
| The Simbul |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 09:15:04
I would like to note that my previous and lengthy reply was in no way intended to pick on you Jocepi.
Rather it is a common assumption/assertion I've encountered several times on other message boards, and over time I have mentally drafted my response. I simply have not yet had the time to go back and reply to posts I read long before, and you simply happened to be the most recent person to pose a question along the same lines. |
| The Simbul |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 08:47:17
quote:
Originally posted by Jocepi
This may have already been answered but if Mystra is truly dead what happens to her chosen? Surely they would crumble to dust as the power that sustains their immortality is gone.
Elminster "..retains his immortality and considerable arcane power". The operative word here is "retains". Elminster became a Chosen of Mystra very early in his life, and at no point prior to his ascension would he have had any need or inclination to utilize longevity magic. Thus the immortality he enjoys is an extension of that he possessed before. While the same text states he is diminished due to a "lapse" in all abilities related to being Mystra's Chosen, this could simply be in reference to the features and powers that Chosen now have in 4E via the Epic Destiny of the same name (i.e. combat powers and features).
The Simbul survived Mystra's death and continued to rule Aglarond for another fifty years after the Spellplague. In addition to still being referred to as a powerful mage, she presumably retains mastery of the pure magic of the Silver Fire, since she taught her apprentices--the Simbarchs--how to wield it.
Laeral wrote her memoirs, Lifelong with Regrets, in 1391 DR--six years after Mystra's Death.
Even in the absence of the above lore, many people in numerous (other) message boards often assert the conclusion that Mystra's Chosen would suddenly disintegrate if she died (Time of Troubles?), or that divine servants and offspring are all subject to a standardized rule stipulating the loss of all benefits upon expiration of said deity. I recall the Children of Bhaal possessing many powers despite the death of their divine father. I also recall NPC priests of Karsus in 2E, clerics of Fallen deities in 3E, and so on.
In 3E Chosen of Mystra gained immunity to aging. Under most circumstances when you have immunity to something do to an effect, and later lose that immunity if that effect ceases, you do not retroactively suffer the consequences of all previous exposure to that effect. Example: Volo is wearing a periapt of proof against poison, and then is poisoned while wearing it--to no effect. If he removes the periapt the next day he will not abruptly die from poisoning.
In 4E terminology we have an actual classification of immortal creatures, which functions as an origin keyword for deities, angels, devils, and beings with strong ties to the Gods. They do not age and cannot die of natural causes.
Elminster carried the bulk of Mystra's power during the Time of Troubles, was once her lover, and carried the Silver Fire longer than any of the other Chosen. Thus it is more than reasonable to conclude that the exposure to divine power would have had an residual effect on him, which through a 4E lens could mean he became an immortal creature.
The Seven Sisters were born of a sorceress willingly possessed by Mystra (which made Mystra and Elue a singular divine being during conception and birth). Many of the Seven Sisters did not actually become Chosen until many decades or centuries later into their lives, and in the case of the Simbul we have lore describing her discovering her inability to age centuries before she actually became a Chosen. Thus it can be assumed they have an innate immortality due to their unusual origins. As for Alustriel passing away, it can either be a common myth (it is the knowledge gained by only a DC 15 check) or simply be a case of Mystra giving her daughters a choice regarding their final fate, like the half-even brothers Elrond and Elros of Tolkien's Middle Earth (where one chose a mortal life, the other chose immortality). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 07:04:44
quote:
Originally posted by Jocepi
This may have already been answered but if Mystra is truly dead what happens to her chosen? Surely they would crumble to dust as the power that sustains their immortality is gone.
Some are still around, though we really don't know too much about what their capabilities now are. |
| Ghost King |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 07:00:39
Well, now this is just speculation not any hard fact, you could logically go along the lines that Elminster (and The Simbul) is still alive so it is feasible in some sense Mystra survived just as the many dead gods (such as Bane) survived. Perhaps someday she will be resurrected or reborn in some fashion. Then again as a selfless act she may have just used what little of her power left before her death to make sure some of the Chosen survived her death, at least for a short while. One goddess's last attempt to give her most faithful a normal life before dying.
Then again how can you kill off the most iconic character in the Realms and expect it to be as such. You could just pretty much make up your own conclusions from what I have skimmed on 4th edition so it really just is up to your imagination can conjure up. Or wait for novels to be released to explain it - if they ever do. |
| Jocepi |
Posted - 22 Aug 2009 : 05:34:35
This may have already been answered but if Mystra is truly dead what happens to her chosen? Surely they would crumble to dust as the power that sustains their immortality is gone. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 17:54:36
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I think that is in large part the problem that the 4e FR Designers when trying to discover a theme for the Forgotten Realms, they seem to have forgotten that the Forgotten Realms is filled with more than just adventurers.
Yep, though to be fair I'm not sure if the gaming populous (ie. the majority that votes with the wallet) likes a game with that much "clutter"
I've heard a lot about the crowd of gamers who just like to run about and swing their swords. They may want to deal with a few folks here and there but mainly they want their bad guys and they want to take on the bad guys. And there was certainly a time when I was more interested in killing and plundering than what kept the town the adventurers are staying in economically viable.
However, as I've gotten older I've gotten more and more fond of what I like to call "organically grown" adventures. Not picking out encounters, but picking out creatures to be in a region, then thinking about how those creatures interact and what drives particular creatures. Then I can introduce events to the players that make sense and, hopefully, that the players can see and possibly even predict to some extent or maybe even thwart in a manner other than killing and plundering.
I'm not really sure where I'm goin with this one anymore, so I think I'll stop. ;) |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 25 Feb 2008 : 16:30:00
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The impression I got from Worlds and Monsters wasn't so much the designers don't like deities of agriculture, per se, but rather they don't see the usefulness, game-wise, of deities that have little to no appeal for adventurers.
I think that is in large part the problem that the 4e FR Designers when trying to discover a theme for the Forgotten Realms, they seem to have forgotten that the Forgotten Realms is filled with more than just adventurers. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 21:39:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know somewhere they said they don't like the idea of a deity of agriculture.
The impression I got from Worlds and Monsters wasn't so much the designers don't like deities of agriculture, per se, but rather they don't see the usefulness, game-wise, of deities that have little to no appeal for adventurers.
That doesn't mean, however, that there won't be any gods of, say, agriculture, rather it seems like it will mean that said gods will have a broader appeal. For example, the 4E version of Pelor (IIRC) will have the portfolio of agriculture in addition to his older, more adventurer-friendly portfolios like "light" and "healing". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Feb 2008 : 14:55:58
Just a note that stuck with me a long time ago. Someone had mentioned that Ed really hadn't had a being like Mystra in his original realms. Instead Lurue had had a lot more interaction with magic, but it was a more whimsical nature since Lurue is a unicorn. He'd gotten the idea from the world (never read the novels) in which the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was based. I really like this idea, and since Lurue should be around in 4e, I think it would be interesting if her followers are going about trying to clear the plaguelands (much as how Mystra's followers were trying to clear wild magic areas) and heal the spell-changed creatures therein. Also, with the land itself "infected" with this messed up magic, could it have an effect on Chauntea? I know somewhere they said they don't like the idea of a deity of agriculture. I don't feel that they should do this, but they could use this as the perfect opportunity to have Chauntea "give up herself to save the land", passing on her portfolios to Silvanus and Miellikki. Might Silvanus and Miellikki have some reason to work with Lurue to heal the land. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 22:36:29
Well, if the Thay series is a transitional series, I think we'll know what's going to happen already.
By book 3, everyone is going to prepare a huge army to take on Szass Tam and his undead. Then out of nowhere, the Spellplague occurs and causes mountains to rise and destroys everyone. Nobody wins! Lol. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 19:02:28
We already got one Transitions series. Ok, ok, ok, I'm tired... will stay quiet for ...well...tonight  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 16:25:20
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
To me, I sort of think it's like a ploy for readers to spend even more money.
I'm pretty sure WotC decided on 4E and the Spellplague storyline a long time ago, so I think for them to continue having novels published this close to the release date of the 4E manual is kind of stupid.
Well, if the novels sell well (and why would they put so many out if they weren't selling?) then it's a ploy that works.
quote:
In fact, I'm guessing some of the novels in the current series won't even be published until after 4E is out. All this is going to do is add more discrepancies and errors in terms of the storyline later on.
Maybe. But yes, it is pretty likely that some of the current series (Thay, Empyrean) will to be "transitional". |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 21 Feb 2008 : 05:19:57
To me, I sort of think it's like a ploy for readers to spend even more money.
I'm pretty sure WotC decided on 4E and the Spellplague storyline a long time ago, so I think for them to continue having novels published this close to the release date of the 4E manual is kind of stupid.
In fact, I'm guessing some of the novels in the current series won't even be published until after 4E is out. All this is going to do is add more discrepancies and errors in terms of the storyline later on.
However, I do agree with you on enjoying the stories. But this to me is like buying your favourite basketball player's jersey only to find out he's being traded to another team the next day. You still like the guy, but then you kinda think you wasted money buying the jersey. Lol. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 18:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Ya, I have the first book. It's not bad, just kind of surprised so many epic and important characters of Thay being killed off in the first book.
Indeed. I'm reading and enjoying those stories (and many other more recent novels) just as stories--I don't care that they are "canon" and don't plan to incorporate the major events from the novels into my Realms. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 02:56:57
Ya, I have the first book. It's not bad, just kind of surprised so many epic and important characters of Thay being killed off in the first book. Of course, considering how the Spellplague is probably going to kill them all it really doesn't matter how much you screw around, I guess.
Sorry on my poorly phrased post above. Lol. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Feb 2008 : 00:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Thay trilogy? Maybe... that may be a reason why Szass Tam is so intent on ruling Thay.
The Haunted Lands trilogy by Richard Lee Byers. Only one novel is out so far, though the next one is due out in March. There is also a short story that ties in with the series in Realms of War. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 21:41:14
Thay trilogy? Maybe... that may be a reason why Szass Tam is so intent on ruling Thay. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 17:56:16
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
It probably means that the new Rich Baker series is going to hint at some of the stuff from the past.
I suspect the new Thay trilogy will get "hit" by the Spellplague, as well. The new Empyrean trilogy also seems likely to incorporate planar shakeups. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 17:16:06
It probably means that the new Rich Baker series is going to hint at some of the stuff from the past.
Most likely means that we're going to have to buy the next 10 post-Spellplague series of books to piece together ourselves what happened. Lol. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 15:59:50
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Rinonalyrna, I was hoping that WotC would do something like they did with ToT. I guess they might reveal the events of Spellplague and such in the 4E FR manual.
Yeah, what she was referencing is that I asked Rich Baker if they had any plans for doing a ToT trilogy on the WotC boards (hopefully better written than the ToT, IMO), and he point blank said no, but that we would see the effects of it in some of the upcoming novels (whatever the hell that means  ). |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 07:48:20
Wooly, nicely done with the sarcasm. Nicely done. Lol.
Rinonalyrna, I was hoping that WotC would do something like they did with ToT. I guess they might reveal the events of Spellplague and such in the 4E FR manual.
After all, this is a way for them to get people to spend like $50 on one guidebook instead of $30 for a 3 book trilogy that probably will detail the event much better than a paragraph and a half in a manual. Lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 05:30:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
daebereth, it is from the Twilight War series. In fact, I think that possibly the third book of that series is going to answer our questions concerning Shar and pave the way that will end up with Mystra's murder.
I wonder if there's going to be a book on that...?
The designers have expressed a definite lack of desire to explore the key Spellplague events in novels. Of course, never say never.
Just like they've ignored the many people who have expressed a desire to read about Xvim's fakeout Bane's rebirth. You know, we're just the people spending the money that pays their paychecks, why should they listen to us? Especially when they can listen to people that have never spent a cent on Realms material...  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Feb 2008 : 02:35:20
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
daebereth, it is from the Twilight War series. In fact, I think that possibly the third book of that series is going to answer our questions concerning Shar and pave the way that will end up with Mystra's murder.
I wonder if there's going to be a book on that...?
The designers have expressed a definite lack of desire to explore the key Spellplague events in novels. Of course, never say never. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 18 Feb 2008 : 21:18:24
daebereth, it is from the Twilight War series. In fact, I think that possibly the third book of that series is going to answer our questions concerning Shar and pave the way that will end up with Mystra's murder.
I wonder if there's going to be a book on that...? |
| daebereth |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 08:21:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yup, I said "failure".
Inspired by the Book of the Black and their own ability to see the future, the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower deduced a coming weakness of Shar and penned their observations in a second tome, the Leaves of One Night.
Shar immediately cursed the Diviners’ writings, and shortly thereafter, thieves in the employ of the Church of Shar stole the Diviners’ copy of the Book of the Black, as well as the only copy of the Leaves of One Night.
With this string of possibly coincidental facts and suppositions, it is possible that the whole mess is going to backfire in Shar's face. It could cause her a major loss of power -- or it could be something as extreme as seeing Shar fall and be replaced.
[/quote]
It also says that Shar's moment of weakness will lead to victory, at least in Mistress of the Night (and possibly the Twilight Wars). There was also something about Shar's death being the death of all things, but I can't remember which book (novel, sourcebook or what have you) that was in. Sharran lies, perhaps, but so few know about the Leaves of One Night to actually be able to say what is written in it. |
| Toedoe |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 17:04:11
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
Cyric is a coward, and would sell out the soul of his long-dead mortal mother to save his Godhood.
You say that like it's a bad thing. I don't know of one evil God that wouldn't. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 01:08:36
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
With the spellplague, Thay will collapse and Aglarond will no longer need the Simbul's protection.
Well, according to the recent article in the online Dragon, Thay doesn't collapse, and Szass Tam, at least, is still around.
Chances are, however, that they will be operating at a diminished capacity for a while. Regardless, there will be a noticeable effect on the magocracy, and others. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 00:49:33
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
With the spellplague, Thay will collapse and Aglarond will no longer need the Simbul's protection.
Well, according to the recent article in the online Dragon, Thay doesn't collapse, and Szass Tam, at least, is still around. |
| Stonwulfe |
Posted - 19 Jan 2008 : 23:21:13
On Shar, Mystra, and Arcane Magic in the Realms post-1385 DR (4e)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
((Warning, this rant may wax Biblical, but follow the metaphors.))
Shar is the Goddess of Night, Secrets, and Bitterly Nursed Grudges against Harms and Slights (or Jealous Zeal). She's the embodiment of at least four of the seven deadly sins: pride, greed, envy, and wrath. Since the dawn of time and creation, she and her sister Selune have been embroiled in a sibling rivalry that echoes that of Caine and Abel. One, bright and beautiful, full of hope, and the other, envious of the other without appreciation of their own dark grace. Unfortunately, Shar's fate is likely to follow Caine's course, and the course of all those who allow their bitter vendettas to consume them.
Shar's murder of Mystra in Dweomerheart with Cyric will expose her to direct harm as her own construct (the shadow weave) collapses with the weave, taking whatever part of her power was imbued in maintaining it. This will undoubtedly further weaken the already snubbed goddess, whether she recognizes it or not in her blinding hubris and single-minded hatred of Selune. Shar has seen Mystra (and her allies and followers) as another reason for her failure to defeat her sister; an obstacle to be overcome. Power that was taken from her by her sister which she has been trying to recover.
With Mystra's death, which has been due for some time, several things happen. First, Selune wins. Whether directly as a result of the fact that Cyric is a coward, and would sell out the soul of his long-dead mortal mother to save his Godhood, or because Shar will try to repeat the murderous trend in Selune's home and be caught unprepared - it doesn't matter. Shar will succumb to her own dark ambitions. I suspect either Hoar or Tyr will do her in.
Second, with Mystra's death and the birth of blue fire, we come full-cycle in two spheres: the human use of magic and the fall of the Chosen. A lot of people won't like my saying this, but the Chosen are an instititution. Any institution, given sufficient time and insufficient change, becomes as cancerous cells in a body - eventually causing more harm than good, regardless of their best intentions.
The Blackstaff recently gave up his life in fruition of his meddling prophecy and that of his diety, returning an ancient city to the world and undoing the damage of the past. A fitting end, and one which still awaits the other Chosen. The Chosen are like the sheppherds of magic, spreading it's use as their mandate, and correcting it where casters have gone awry, but eventually the flock grows capable of defending itself and making it's own decisions. With the spellplague, Thay will collapse and Aglarond will no longer need the Simbul's protection. Silverymoon's wards will fail, but so will the arcane protections keeping Obould invulnerable.
The weave has been a conduit through which man, a non-magical race, has come to understand, access, and master magic. Magic has suffused daily life for much of the Realms, or been notable enough at least to be observed as a part of people's experiences. With enough generations of exposure to magic, eventually the 'safety blanket' of the weave becomes unnecessary, and those attuned to the pulse of raw magic begin to understand its influences as the Elves always have. The Elves, after all, came to Abeir-Toril from another planet, on Spelljamming vessels and through gates, purportedly from worlds where Mystra had no presence, and thus therefore neither did the weave.
This evolutionary progress of man, to join the other magical races, will complement the 4e understanding that magic is available to all races, and no longer necessitate the presence of a watchdog goddess. It also removes the instability and the imbalance of power from the equation. Mystra had the ability, hypothetically, to deny even another god arcane power. Now, this is no longer the case. I believe this is a good move.
It also opens the door for so many new developments in the Realms, and while I don't entirely agree with some of the direction I see the game (and the Realms) taking, nor do I agree with some of the bitching that's been going on about it. Please understand that I mean this as respectfully as I possibly can. We will see what will be, and if we do not like it, we will reserve the right to throw out what we won't use. However, if we push our little non-confidence Gambit, we risk losing the 'TOY' that WotC bought with their dollars altogether, and that's unacceptable in my mind.
So, I... for one... am waiting to see what happens. This is an exciting time. |
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