| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Naeryndam |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 01:29:29
I apologize for posting this question again, but it was never addressed in my previous post. The question is, did the Vyshaan ever bind with demons like House Floshin and others? Also, many sources refer to the Vyshaan as using dark magic, however this is never explained in depth with the exception of the creation of the high moor. Is anything known about these subjects?
Thanks, |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 10 Nov 2008 : 21:09:51
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
If said with a certain inflection "grey" = "dross" in Elven, if I remember correctly. "Moon" and "Silver" would be the complimentary terms.
As an aside, "wild-elf" is mildly derogatory. Green-elves prefer to be called "green-elves", although "True-People" is an acceptable alternative. ;) |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 18:08:30
-
BRIMSTONE   |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 07 Nov 2008 : 01:41:31
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
the vyshaan dogs do not make up all that is the sun elves.
nor are moon elves to blame.
atrocities committed in the crown wars were paid in full.
the vyshaan acts of war, annexing other elven city states, mass murder,consorting with malkazid, and ask some scholar who actually cares what else, were indeed tame compared to what the illthiri did, consorting with demons, mass murder, mass destruction, betrayal, assination, and ask a scholar who cares what else.
all debts paid in full.
haughtiness is shared amongst the people, and arrogance is shared amongst all the races.
do have a nice day
"Right" and "wrong" is often a matter of perspective. I tried to showcase that in my GHotR piece on the dark elves of Miyeritar.
-- George Krashos
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Nov 2008 : 22:59:00
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Oh please do not tell me that there is a large number of sun elves who actually believe something as utterly sabruined as this...
-No, no they do not. While many of the atrocities that occurred while Aryvandaar was ruled by the Vyshaanti, the Elven race has wizened up to the type of individuals that the Vyshaanti were. The term 'Vyshaan', which stems from the surname, is a vile Elven curse word, that translates as 'Power Mad'. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 22:48:56
Even though this addresses some of the older posts here, I thought the part about the Grey Elves intersting - I had decided (after reading E:IoE) that Torillian Elves used the word 'Grey', and the ones from older edition PHB are 'Gray'.
Not much of a difference, realy, but without some difference it's a little weird. I'm an ex-Greyhawk player, and the Gray Elves were the 'aloof, stuck-up' ones, and the High Elves were the more common ones people could see in cities and towns. That means in FR terms, the Gray Elves should have been the Sun Elves, not the Moon Elves. I suppose Elaine thought 'Grey' was more like silver, or the Moon.
Anyhow, I find it pretty funny that the FR Elves have turned it into a dergatory term, considering a GH (High or other) Elf visiting Toril would call the Sun Elves Gray Elves (culturally, anyway - I think the Realms does a complete flip-flop on the appearance of High and Gray Elves over core).
Hmmmm... I just had an idea for a an add to my Tablets of Fate project.  |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 22:14:52
the vyshaan dogs do not make up all that is the sun elves.
nor are moon elves to blame.
atrocities committed in the crown wars were paid in full.
the vyshaan acts of war, annexing other elven city states, mass murder,consorting with malkazid, and ask some scholar who actually cares what else, were indeed tame compared to what the illthiri did, consorting with demons, mass murder, mass destruction, betrayal, assination, and ask a scholar who cares what else.
all debts paid in full.
haughtiness is shared amongst the people, and arrogance is shared amongst all the races.
do have a nice day |
| khorne |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 20:22:11
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
The problem is that elves did not create their own downfall, moon elves created the elves downfall.
At the conclusion of the fourth Crown War, Aryvandaar had won. FOr the first time in centuries peace reigned.
Also for the first time, the elves were united. That is, except for one enclave, the Elven Court. The moon elves of the elven court, in their thirst for revenge, used that cities reputation as a holy place of the Seldarine to twist and plot stories about the corruption of the Vyshaan. They declared that Corellon had found the Vyshaan at fault fo rthe Crown Wars and must pay.
Their twisted stories spread to the corners of the globe, and once again elves began fighting elves. The VYshaan, tired of fighting, saw the trap thje moon elves had finally laid. If they continue to fight and kill elves the false prophecy the moon elves had spun would become more and more recognized. On the other hand if they gave themselves up for trial, the moon elves would certainly have them annihilated. So the Vyshaan decided to fight a (relatively) minor skirmish while they prepared to depart Aryvandaar, and the dream of a united elven empire.
Their last Coronal, Gilvaas the Brave, and his Vyshantyr Dragon Knights gave their lives so that most of the house and allies could escape.
Next the moon elves sought to befriend humans, and teach them not only our ways of war, but our ways of the art. Instead of keeping the Aryvandaan fortresses guarded and off limits, they allowed a humans to explore it, and acquire the Netheril Scrolls. The naive moon elves, did not realize that power of this kind is best kept from the hands of lesser beings.
In their foolishness they armed humans with both magic, and arms. From that point on the human onslaught had begun. Since that time humans have pushed elves back, because not only are moon elves naive, they have no stomach for true war. This is evident in how they give ground to everyone who fights them.
Next they created moon blades, once again under the supposed auspices of Corellon, and made it so that no Sun Elf may wield them, thereby excluding Sun elves from ever again ruling Evermeet, a realm they rightfully should command. Since the moonflowers took over Evermeet has suffered its first invasion. It was through the bravery of the Sun elves on the Island that the horde was driven back.
No, it is not the elves which are to blame for our downfall, but rather, one elf kind in particular. Moon elves.
- Vyshaan
Oh please do not tell me that there is a large number of sun elves who actually believe something as utterly sabruined as this... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:51:11
-There are a lot of details that we do not have, concerning the early Elven empires. Honestly, there are still a lot of details missing concerning the contemporary Elves as well. The specific heralds used by Aryvandaar, as well as by the Vyshaanti during their reign, are unknown to us right now. |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 05 Nov 2008 : 19:29:58
Bit of thread necromancy here, but: did the Vyshaan have an emblem or similar heraldic device that they used to identify their house, holdings, and forces? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 01:42:50
Indeed. 'Gray Elf' was a derogatory term used by a human or dwarf and a deadly insult from the lip of another elf. It is normally associated with moon elves only. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 00:50:15
Correct. Moon elf is perfectly acceptable. Gray elf is not. You can see this most readily in the exchange between Sratish and Arilyn Moonblade early on in Elfshadow. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 17 Apr 2008 : 00:39:24
If said with a certain inflection "grey" = "dross" in Elven, if I remember correctly. "Moon" and "Silver" would be the complimentary terms. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 23:28:02
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Good spin-doctoring, yes, but isn't "moon elf" considered a grievous insult by silver elves, per Evermeet or some other book?
You might be thinking of the term "gray elf". From what I recall, "moon elf" isn't seen as an insult. |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 16 Apr 2008 : 23:10:24
Good spin-doctoring, yes, but isn't "moon elf" considered a grievous insult by silver elves, per Evermeet or some other book?
|
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 16:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by Jeiroth
The problem is that elves did not create their own downfall, moon elves created the elves downfall.
At the conclusion of the fourth Crown War, Aryvandaar had won. FOr the first time in centuries peace reigned.
Also for the first time, the elves were united. That is, except for one enclave, the Elven Court. The moon elves of the elven court, in their thirst for revenge, used that cities reputation as a holy place of the Seldarine to twist and plot stories about the corruption of the Vyshaan. They declared that Corellon had found the Vyshaan at fault fo rthe Crown Wars and must pay.
Their twisted stories spread to the corners of the globe, and once again elves began fighting elves. The VYshaan, tired of fighting, saw the trap thje moon elves had finally laid. If they continue to fight and kill elves the false prophecy the moon elves had spun would become more and more recognized. On the other hand if they gave themselves up for trial, the moon elves would certainly have them annihilated. So the Vyshaan decided to fight a (relatively) minor skirmish while they prepared to depart Aryvandaar, and the dream of a united elven empire.
Their last Coronal, Gilvaas the Brave, and his Vyshantyr Dragon Knights gave their lives so that most of the house and allies could escape.
Next the moon elves sought to befriend humans, and teach them not only our ways of war, but our ways of the art. Instead of keeping the Aryvandaan fortresses guarded and off limits, they allowed a humans to explore it, and acquire the Netheril Scrolls. The naive moon elves, did not realize that power of this kind is best kept from the hands of lesser beings.
In their foolishness they armed humans with both magic, and arms. From that point on the human onslaught had begun. Since that time humans have pushed elves back, because not only are moon elves naive, they have no stomach for true war. This is evident in how they give ground to everyone who fights them.
Next they created moon blades, once again under the supposed auspices of Corellon, and made it so that no Sun Elf may wield them, thereby excluding Sun elves from ever again ruling Evermeet, a realm they rightfully should command. Since the moonflowers took over Evermeet has suffered its first invasion. It was through the bravery of the Sun elves on the Island that the horde was driven back.
No, it is not the elves which are to blame for our downfall, but rather, one elf kind in particular. Moon elves.
- Vyshaan
Brilliant post, Jeiroth. Pitch-perfect mind-set and selective-spin-doctoring of facts. Where's that "polite-golf-clapping" smiley when you need it?
Steven |
| Jeiroth |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 16:14:30
The problem is that elves did not create their own downfall, moon elves created the elves downfall.
At the conclusion of the fourth Crown War, Aryvandaar had won. FOr the first time in centuries peace reigned.
Also for the first time, the elves were united. That is, except for one enclave, the Elven Court. The moon elves of the elven court, in their thirst for revenge, used that cities reputation as a holy place of the Seldarine to twist and plot stories about the corruption of the Vyshaan. They declared that Corellon had found the Vyshaan at fault fo rthe Crown Wars and must pay.
Their twisted stories spread to the corners of the globe, and once again elves began fighting elves. The VYshaan, tired of fighting, saw the trap thje moon elves had finally laid. If they continue to fight and kill elves the false prophecy the moon elves had spun would become more and more recognized. On the other hand if they gave themselves up for trial, the moon elves would certainly have them annihilated. So the Vyshaan decided to fight a (relatively) minor skirmish while they prepared to depart Aryvandaar, and the dream of a united elven empire.
Their last Coronal, Gilvaas the Brave, and his Vyshantyr Dragon Knights gave their lives so that most of the house and allies could escape.
Next the moon elves sought to befriend humans, and teach them not only our ways of war, but our ways of the art. Instead of keeping the Aryvandaan fortresses guarded and off limits, they allowed a humans to explore it, and acquire the Netheril Scrolls. The naive moon elves, did not realize that power of this kind is best kept from the hands of lesser beings.
In their foolishness they armed humans with both magic, and arms. From that point on the human onslaught had begun. Since that time humans have pushed elves back, because not only are moon elves naive, they have no stomach for true war. This is evident in how they give ground to everyone who fights them.
Next they created moon blades, once again under the supposed auspices of Corellon, and made it so that no Sun Elf may wield them, thereby excluding Sun elves from ever again ruling Evermeet, a realm they rightfully should command. Since the moonflowers took over Evermeet has suffered its first invasion. It was through the bravery of the Sun elves on the Island that the horde was driven back.
No, it is not the elves which are to blame for our downfall, but rather, one elf kind in particular. Moon elves.
- Vyshaan |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 13:34:07
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Steven, how many elves are there who realize that blaming humanity and other "lesser" races for all their troubles is rather stupid? After all, the elves ruled Faerun before the crown wars, and who started those? Elves...
In my opinion the Tel'Quessirs worst foes are themselves. Humans and orcs cause a lot of grief, true, but the worst damage to the elven people always seems to be caused by other elves.
People that feel inherently superior to others generally ignore such small details as logic and facts that indicate otherwise. With groups like the Eldreth Veluuthra, the fact that the elves created their own downfall does nothing to diminish the fact that they should be on top, because they're still better than any of the "lesser" races. |
| khorne |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 12:10:07
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
I apologize for posting this question again, but it was never addressed in my previous post. The question is, did the Vyshaan ever bind with demons like House Floshin and others? Also, many sources refer to the Vyshaan as using dark magic, however this is never explained in depth with the exception of the creation of the high moor. Is anything known about these subjects?
Thanks,
I'd never expected the Vyshaan to be major plot points when I'd written the histories in CORMANTHYR; thus, I never had any more intent to detail them beyond what's in that source. That way, DMs had more wiggle-room to design them as they liked in their campaigns--as corrupt or as zealous as desired.
That said, I'd say the Vyshaan would definitely not knowingly ally themselves with demons (or entities like Malzikid, if they knew its true nature when it all started). That would rip away their veneer of righteousness.
In my mind (and in theirs), the Vyshaan truly believed they were the Seldarine's power on Faerun to keep elvenkind from going astray/corrupt....and doing things like teaching magic to lesser races (and that included the original dark elf race to them--one of the things that really honked them off about Miyeritaar) was a path away from elven purity.
And there's a good chance that the Vyshaan would see what the Eldreth Veluuthra are today and applaud, at least in intent if not method.
As for their use of "dark magics," that's where Malzikid's influence comes in...as well as the clan's/family's own cadre of High Mages, who became a cabal unto themselves, using High Magic to the clan's/Vyshaantar's own ends, not all of elvenkind's. Whenever you take a lot of powerful people with one mindset and kick out any balances on them (i.e. other opinions and/or rules), the slippery slope of bad choices is often unrecognized until it's far, far too late.
Thus, they might still believe in their hearts they did what they did to the High Moor with the best of intentions--to save the rest of Faerun (or more directly, its elves) from the "corruptions and depradations of Miyeritaari propaganda and foul magics."
Hope that at least illuminates some of the mindset therein on the Vyshaanti (or at least the mindset of the guy who coined their name and place in history). For more on what Rich had in mind with them, you'll have to ask him directly.
Steven
Steven, how many elves are there who realize that blaming humanity and other "lesser" races for all their troubles is rather stupid? After all, the elves ruled Faerun before the crown wars, and who started those? Elves...
In my opinion the Tel'Quessirs worst foes are themselves. Humans and orcs cause a lot of grief, true, but the worst damage to the elven people always seems to be caused by other elves. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 23:12:02
quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
I apologize for posting this question again, but it was never addressed in my previous post. The question is, did the Vyshaan ever bind with demons like House Floshin and others? Also, many sources refer to the Vyshaan as using dark magic, however this is never explained in depth with the exception of the creation of the high moor. Is anything known about these subjects?
Thanks,
I'd never expected the Vyshaan to be major plot points when I'd written the histories in CORMANTHYR; thus, I never had any more intent to detail them beyond what's in that source. That way, DMs had more wiggle-room to design them as they liked in their campaigns--as corrupt or as zealous as desired.
That said, I'd say the Vyshaan would definitely not knowingly ally themselves with demons (or entities like Malzikid, if they knew its true nature when it all started). That would rip away their veneer of righteousness.
In my mind (and in theirs), the Vyshaan truly believed they were the Seldarine's power on Faerun to keep elvenkind from going astray/corrupt....and doing things like teaching magic to lesser races (and that included the original dark elf race to them--one of the things that really honked them off about Miyeritaar) was a path away from elven purity.
And there's a good chance that the Vyshaan would see what the Eldreth Veluuthra are today and applaud, at least in intent if not method.
As for their use of "dark magics," that's where Malzikid's influence comes in...as well as the clan's/family's own cadre of High Mages, who became a cabal unto themselves, using High Magic to the clan's/Vyshaantar's own ends, not all of elvenkind's. Whenever you take a lot of powerful people with one mindset and kick out any balances on them (i.e. other opinions and/or rules), the slippery slope of bad choices is often unrecognized until it's far, far too late.
Thus, they might still believe in their hearts they did what they did to the High Moor with the best of intentions--to save the rest of Faerun (or more directly, its elves) from the "corruptions and depradations of Miyeritaari propaganda and foul magics."
Hope that at least illuminates some of the mindset therein on the Vyshaanti (or at least the mindset of the guy who coined their name and place in history). For more on what Rich had in mind with them, you'll have to ask him directly.
Steven |
| Swordsage |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 08:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Naeryndam
I apologize for posting this question again, but it was never addressed in my previous post. The question is, did the Vyshaan ever bind with demons like House Floshin and others?
Nope.
The Swordsage |
| Jeiroth |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 18:42:51
Hey,
I am running a campaign set in the time of the Vyshaan.
In my opinion, the Vyshaan were actually quite the opposite. Instead of cavorting with demons, they used rituals to convert themselves into celestials. Eladrin to be specific. And special kinds of Eladrin, much as Drow-Dragons are considered elves, so would Vyshaan celestials be considered elven. Then with these new improved forms, yet with elven capabilities (such as high magic use) Vyshaantyr went after their enemies.
Demons and the sort were beneath them, the only reason they befriended Malkazid was because they thought him still a Celestial Solar of Corellon who had come to speak directly to the Aryvandaan Coronal.
It was this twisted arrogance, desire for power, and manipulation of their elvendom which many other non Vyshaan elves considered "dark magics".
But to the Vyshaan, and their sun elf allies, it was not a despicably evil act, such as say, mating with demons.
|
| Iliana N-letur |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 10:07:22
The problem of somebody not using something is that it is never noted.
However, LEoF notes that the Ilythiir used 'enslaved' creatures, but the only 'outside' influence (known) on Vyshaan was Malkizid, who seemed to prefer being the power behind the throne, not summon hordes of underlings.
So, just my opinion mind you, as Vyshaan still thought they were the good guys, they seemed to have used their Nael'kerym (Duskblades), Mages, and Assassins to get the upper hand.
Magic wise: Evocation/Alteration (Vyshaan) versus Enchanting/Summoning/Necromancy (Ilythiir) |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 03 Aug 2007 : 03:20:56
which sources do u have/ could use cause there is quite alot in different books that could help you. kinda too vast to list here. |
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