| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 15:20:57
Does anyone know what the relationship is like between Underdark hobgoblin tribes and the drow? Enemies? Neutral? Trade partners? Allies?
I'm looking specifically at the central Amn region in early winter 1370. The section of the Underdark beneath Amn is the lost Deep Shanatar kimgdom of Xothaerin, and the entire region is basically wilderness dominated by formians and stingers. Any drow making their way into this region would likely be from the drow cities to the south beneath Tethyr. The Underdark hobgoblin tribes belong to Sythillis' army. It's just a guess on my part but i'm wondering if they might come from the Underdark to the east or southeast (eg, nearer to Turmish or the Shaar).
If nobody has any info on this I'll pose the question in Steven Schend's forum, but I wanted to check here first. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:32:27
Thanks, that's definitely a sensible idea!
As far as I know there's no canon explanation for it. I consider stuff like this left open for the DM to fill in the blanks, so it need only be consistent with canon. Any further suggestions will be appreciated. :) |
| Koushiro |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 09:19:15
The answer could be as simple as that when the ogres started consolidating into a single tribe, they began attacking any hill giant that would not jion up with them, and with the hill giants seeing themselves as being above ogres, only a few were willing to.
This could also be used as a reason how the various ogre tribes were formed into one group. The ogre mages pionting the hill giants out as threat towards ogre society if they were unwilling to become a part of it, thus making the tribes fear the giants and want to become part of a larger group so as to protect themselves against them. This is all pure speculation, and none of it is based in canon though. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 23:55:22
I have actually come up with my own organizational structure for Sythillis army, which does place ogres well above hill giants in the hierarchy.
The ogres so vastly outnumber hill giants in Sythillis army (a ratio of literally 100:1) that one wonders why ogres flourished in the region when hill giants apparently did not.
Sythillis' army includes only 45 hill giants (the Skullgnasher tribe), whereas he has 4,800 ogres. Sythillis' army trained in a secret complex within the Small Teeth for 14 years prior to the invasion of central Amn in 1370. I'm now trying to invent an explanation for why the hill giant numbers are so low compared to the ogres. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 07:39:26
Even if the ogres are dominating I think they will have to use wits and give the giants the impression of being in an equal alliance. Hill giants are not very submissive by nature, especially to creatures smaller than them. I have no problem seeing a ogre mage, being both magical and intelligent, being able to control hill-giants, but ogres on their own would have a hard time convincing the giants of following them on anything but equal terms. Most ogre tribes are not lead by ogre mages and therefore the situation one has in the Small Teeth is rather rare. |
| Koushiro |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 07:28:56
At that time the small teeth were(and still are) under the control of the Sythillisian empire ruled by two ogre mages. Though, even without that I would assume the ogres would have dominance over the hill giants, just because hill giants are pretty dim, and with a couple ogre mages controlling the ogre tribes they could easilly outsmart any attempt the hill giants would make to gain dominance. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 12:14:10
In the region I'm studying (Small Teeth region of Amn, winter 1370) hill giants and ogres both inhabit the Small Teeth mountains. But ogres seem to far outnumber the hill giants in a big way. And ogres seem to have established themeselves in the region for much longer. Presumably both live alongside one another, but which of the two giant subraces do you think would be dominant? Near as I can tell ogres are typically subservient to giants. But as noted, here the ogres vastly outnumber the giants. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 01:13:16
Thanks, and yes, the Slayer's Guides are really good, I like them!
If anyone is interested I'll post what I've done with the material on hobgoblins for a NWN2 persistent world set in Amn (see sig).
By the time I'm done with all this I'll be tempted to write up an entire campaign set. |
| Wenin |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 17:44:34
For information about Hobgoblins, you could reference the non-canon, non-WoTC supplement called Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins.
I personally love the series of books. |
| Twilight |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 07:15:23
I'm pretty sure most Drow settlements are hostile towards everyone unless the could see an advantage in having a friendly one. Drow aren't the nicest folk in the realms but it is the underdark |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 01:05:43
Yeah, having researched this some more, I don't think there's any doubt but that the relationship would be a hostile one. In the NWN2 persistent world I'm working with we've written a rather detailed history for the hobgoblins of Holorarar in particular. And we'll be doing the same for the traditional drow of Guallidurth and the heretical drow of Ultoksamrin/Forest of Mir. But suffice it to say the relationship is not frendly between any of them. We have only the hobgoblins allied witb Sythillis. |
| Twilight |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 20:18:27
Enemies or thralls to the Drow most likely |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:54:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though!
Yes,
But it's info OTHERS can use at a later time. I've gone back and reused info that I never asked for that are in the 2004 and 2005 replies.
Your choice to ask though but as I said, others could use that material in the future....
Agreed.
I'm still mining Ed's '04 replies for material to use in my FR. I haven't even touched most of the replies from '05 yet... because there's still so much to use from 2004! 
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:42:48
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though!
Yes,
But it's info OTHERS can use at a later time. I've gone back and reused info that I never asked for that are in the 2004 and 2005 replies.
Your choice to ask though but as I said, others could use that material in the future.... |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 00:31:04
Gotta be honest that I don't bother doing that anymore. Ed is under an avalanche of unanswered questions already dating back up to two years. I really don't see the point of waiting a year or more to *maybe* hear an answer to something related to a game, heh! Ed clearly loves to answer as many questions as he can, but he can't get to them all. That's just the reality of the situation. I do enjoy reading what he writes though! |
| Kuje |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 17:10:19
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Thanks Besshalar!
Can anyone recall if Ed has ever commented on why hobgoblins have such a relatively small population in the Realms compared with their goblinoid cousin races (goblin and bugbear)? The Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins posits a number of possible scenarios, the most sensible of which seems to be that their appearance as a species on Abeir-Toril is relatively recent. Given their strong military discipline and unquenchable thirst for conquest, it otherwise makes no sense that they would not have become a major force to be reckoned with across the globe.
Don't think he has, you could go ask him. :) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 13:07:28
Thanks Besshalar!
Can anyone recall if Ed has ever commented on why hobgoblins have such a relatively small population in the Realms compared with their goblinoid cousin races (goblin and bugbear)? The Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins posits a number of possible scenarios, the most sensible of which seems to be that their appearance as a species on Abeir-Toril is relatively recent. Given their strong military discipline and unquenchable thirst for conquest, it otherwise makes no sense that they would not have become a major force to be reckoned with across the globe. |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 12:07:15
I don't think that a specific land has been stated as their origin. But as they are quite heavily based on the oni of japanese folklore I'd probably say Kara-tur. Ofcourse this happened thousands of years ago and they can now be found much more widely. Also check out Dragon #349 for the ecology of the ogremage it's not realms specific but has a few hooks in it. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 11:51:37
Thanks for all the help!
A follow up question: ogre mages are said to come from the east--are there any particular eastern lands that they tend to originate from? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 23:08:02
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
I was pretty sure Woolly would have that knowledge somewhere.. :)
I found that website a long time ago, while looking for something. It's so useful I had to immediately bookmark it.  |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 19:21:22
I was pretty sure Woolly would have that knowledge somewhere.. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 17:08:59
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
For some reason my elaborate filing system (a big pile) seems to have misplaced the dragon, that had the ecology of the hobgoblin article, but it does exist and should be quite helpfull. Although reading that article I never really understood why the race isn't more of a power in the realms.
"Paragons of War: The Ecology of the Hobgoblin", by Terry Edwards, is in Dragon 309. Info courtesy of The DragonDex, an up-to-date index of all of the articles in Dragon.
|
| Besshalar |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 16:35:04
For some reason my elaborate filing system (a big pile) seems to have misplaced the dragon, that had the ecology of the hobgoblin article, but it does exist and should be quite helpfull. Although reading that article I never really understood why the race isn't more of a power in the realms. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 15:56:16
No further info on them hobgoblins there, but the drow of the Forest of Mir were/are also reported as being worshippers of Bhaelros, an aspect of Talos. These would most likely be the surface living chaps though.
As for hobgoblins in general, they are noted among the slave troops of the drow of Menzoberranzan - in quite sizeable numbers actually. Given their generally evil outline and discipline, one could envisage some "good" relationships between the drow and the hobgoblins. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:31:02
Any idea where can I get info on the Underdark hobgoblin tribes of this region (central Tethyr)? Or hobgoblin society in general. I need to begin detailing how it came to pass that some of these tribes ended up in Sythillis' army. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 21:27:36
"The Temple City of Lolth [Guallidurth] lies deep beneath the Calim Desert, midway between Calimport, the ruins of Teshyll, and St. Noradnar's Hermitage."
Do the three landmarks mentioned form a triangle that Guallidurth lies in the middle of? Where are the ruins of Teshyll and St. Noradnar's Hermitage? Which source book shows that much detail for the Calim Desert? TIA
Edit: Heh, nevermind, found the above locations and map in Empires of the Shining Sea. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 15:30:54
Thanks for the reference to FRCS, where in a section on the Forest of Mir it states (p. 156) "Three Vhaerunian drow settlements exist just under the surface near the foothills of the Marching Mountains." So at least for their existence in 1370 described in LoI it appears my conjecture is sound that they inhabit both the tunnels and caverns and above ground settlements under the dense forest canopy. This would make sense anyway, as Vhaerunians have the goal of transitioning from the Underdark to the surface life. It sounds to me like they would almost want to be something akin to 'amphibians' with respect to subterranean and surface living. They're probably nowhere near fully adapted to surface life, though, and my guess is they'd be underground mostly during the day, and above ground at night.
Edit: I turned up some more in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. The section on Ultoksamrin details the three Vaerunian drow settlements. That source mentions that the rogue drow there have rather extensive holdings beneath the eastern Marching Mountains and their foothills, and under the Forest of Mir. It also mentions that there are settlements above ground "beneath the boughs of the Forest of Mir." |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 12:04:23
With a drow settlement in the Forest of Mir - a fact that I was not aware of - this ight be different indeed. As both have greater threats close at hand I would believe that they are not necissarily traiding partners but at least not hostile towards each other. I would go with a unfriendly attitude, leaving each other alone as much as possible. However, that is just my personal shot at this, i cannot give you any reference. Besides, you are the DM and as such have the final say in what their relations should be like.
Edit note:
The FRCS still mentions the existence of three Vharaunian drow settlements just under the surface near the foothills of the Marching Mountains, but nothing more specific than that. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 01:55:07
Neat. I see that comes from a timeline in Calimport (TSR9589). So they then took over the realm left behind by the dwarves of Holorarar just a bit to the west beneath Clovis Fields (which is only 80 miles from the northern edge of the Forest of Mir). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 01:37:44
I think the hobgoblin point of origin is further east - the Gorge of the Fallen Idol to be precise.
-- George Krashos
|
| Lemernis |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 22:36:17
Okay I see on p. 114 of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark that hobgoblins took over the dwarven realm of Holorarar after it fell to ruin due to the Kin Clashes. These hobgoblin tribes have remained strong there. In -379 they united under a king. This is located beneath the Clovis Hills of central Tethyr. This must be the bunch recruited by Sythillis.
Edit: Come to think of it, these hobgoblins must have had interactions with the drow settlements in the Forest of Mir--unless of course the drow never spend any time in the Underdark any longer. Anyway, Clovis Fields is right next to the Forest of Mir. |
