| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Echon |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 12:10:48
Recently I have been reading the Plancescape Campaign Setting Boxed Set which I have just got hold of and I wondered if Ao's influence is limited to the crystal sphere in which Toril lies? Is he ceator of all the planes or only Abeir-Toril and everything in that world? Is he subject to limits of ordinary gods with respect to planar travels?
-Echon |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 24 Sep 2018 : 19:15:14
Senior Scribe Echon,
I loved this thread. Reading through it was fantastic! To your question though (and I'm not sure I can add much more to it, other than the fact that other items came later and so updating here might be good). Below are some links to some great material.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Echon
Recently I have been reading the Plancescape Campaign Setting Boxed Set which I have just got hold of and I wondered if Ao's influence is limited to the crystal sphere in which Toril lies? Is he ceator of all the planes or only Abeir-Toril and everything in that world? Is he subject to limits of ordinary gods with respect to planar travels?
-Echon
|
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 15 Mar 2003 : 07:25:31
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Sure! I think you ask yourselft a little too much questions! 
Scaredy-cat!  One must always ask questions!
(Besides, I wrote that right before my four-and-a-half-hour-long Astronomy exam. I had it on the brain at the time. ) |
| zemd |
Posted - 14 Mar 2003 : 13:44:47
Sure! I think you ask yourselft a little too much questions! |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Mar 2003 : 23:53:43
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
But to be honest, this type of discussion is like debating quantum mechanics and dark matter or dark energy.
And just what's wrong with that? |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 13 Mar 2003 : 12:18:05
Taking Lloth as an example again.
A part of the concept Lloth (or an aspect if you want) was 'banished' to the Underdark as a result of Ao's intervention... But that had no effect at all for the concept Lloth in Greyhawk, Earth, or Planescape. Only the 'part' of the being 'Lloth' in the Abyss that is concerned with Faerun would have been affected by the ToT, and none of the other 'parts'.
A priestess of Lloth on Oerth did not notice anything wrong with her goddess while at the same time (or is it a paralel time, or completely different time...?) priestesses of Lloth on Toril suddenly went without spells and communication with the Spider Queen...
But to be honest, this type of discussion is like debating quantum mechanics and dark matter or dark energy. Or even religion as the phenomenon itself... Dangerous stuff, prone to form opposite camps of likeminded people.
As a DM, if you want there to be a relation between the various incarnations of Lloth over the multiple campaign worlds... you're free to do so. If not just as fine. There is no real 'canon' on this, and I think for the majority of gamers there is no need either...
If you want to continue the discussion, by all means. But this is most likely my last contribution to this aspect of this topic. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Mar 2003 : 11:29:55
quote:
Originally posted by Echon
As to the question of wether these gods are known outside of Toril, I definately think so. Takhisis of Krynn resides in the Abyss, probably alongside a couple of gods of Toril (cannot think of any), Shar and Cyric both reside in Hades likely side by side with other neutral evil gods from Ravenloft or Athas, etc. With the exeption of those few gods who reside in the Prime Material, all other gods dwell in the outer planes, specifically in the one matching their alignment. Knowledge of this may be rare to Primes but common to those residing in Sigil and the Outlands.
See, Mumadar? That's what I was asking. But noooooo, Echon had to give it to me.
Seriously (well, as serious such as we can get ), how were the gods of multiple worlds effected? Was it just that "tendril" of the god's self that was forced into a mortal avatar, or was it the whole package? Was it just a piece of Lloth that went to the Underdark, or did she have to leave the Abyss entirely? |
| Echon |
Posted - 13 Mar 2003 : 08:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
So what's the planar limit Echon was talking about?
These limits do not apply to gods, only to mortals, despite what I might have said earlier in this thread. However, I learned this while reading the Planescape Campaign Setting( ) and here it says that the Ethereal Plane (including the Elemental Planes) only connect to the Astral Plane (including the Outer Planes) through the Prime Material. This has some limit on planar travel and how some magic works. However, the gods are not subject to this and are capable of granting spells to priests in the Ethereal Plane even though the God is in one of the Outer Planes.
As to the question of wether these gods are known outside of Toril, I definately think so. Takhisis of Krynn resides in the Abyss, probably alongside a couple of gods of Toril (cannot think of any), Shar and Cyric both reside in Hades likely side by side with other neutral evil gods from Ravenloft or Athas, etc. With the exeption of those few gods who reside in the Prime Material, all other gods dwell in the outer planes, specifically in the one matching their alignment. Knowledge of this may be rare to Primes but common to those residing in Sigil and the Outlands.
I hope the above makes sense. If not, complain.
-Echon |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Mar 2003 : 05:39:32
quote:
Originally posted by Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Accepted--Put you puzzle thread somewhere Bookwyrm.
Actually, it doesn't work in text. It's a bitmap I made. I'll email it to you. |
| Bellua Aeneus Lacerta |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 23:36:27
Accepted--Put you puzzle thread somewhere Bookwyrm. |
| AraznBlair |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 15:57:22
Echon- I can't remember many source books for Krynn out side of a few such as the Chronicles nor do I know of any mention of Chaos in those same books. Maybe another well verse scribe could help you there. I'm more familliar with the novels more than anything.
If I remember correctly Tiamat is Takesis (sp?) from Krynn as well. They both are represented by a 5 headed Cromatic dragon. In the 2E Powers and Pantheon it mentions how the Mulhondran gods came to Toril when another god stole the people of another world. I can't remember the exact wording at the moment for I can not find that specific tome but I am pretty sure it is in there.
As for the TOT I beleve it did affect all gods. In one of RAS books it was mentioned that Lloth took her avatar form in Menzobarrazen (sp?) just prior to the war with the Dwarves of Myrthal(sp?) Hall. I agree with Mumadar Ibn Huzal that it seemed to only have affected the Fauren gods the most or more than likely thats all we really know about since those are the most written about gods. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 11:10:29
So what's the planar limit Echon was talking about? |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 10:15:02
Hehehe... I understand the scratching, I felt the same when I first pondered this puzzle... But as with all things religion based, I do think some things are better left unexplained and mysterious. Besides the game or story impact on that high a level (not character level) is so minimal to non-existent that I wouldn't worry about it... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 10:04:34
[Bookwyrm scratches his head.]
Hmm, I guess I could see how that works . . . . but is there a central "body" for the deity (like Lolth/Lloth), or is it sort of a hive-mind? |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:58:55
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
But you seem to have raised two more questions, at least for me. Probably both are answered in some source book somewhere . . . . 
Anyay, first: aren't there actually seperate pantheons on Toril? There's the Celestial Bureaucracy (basically lifted wholesale from our own Far East) and the Maztican pantheon (again, cut-and-pasted-just-change-the-names, this time from Mesoamerica). I don't know if there are others. How do they interact? Did they go through the Time of Troubles? If they were cast down as well, that would indicate that they interact with the "regular" pantheon. It's just that they don't seem to do that in the mortal world . . . .
Anyway, the other question is similar: Echon mentioned that the gods have limits on planar travel. Does that mean that they can't go to another world? That seems strange, what with the Spelljamer setting. And I think that Finder went to Krynn in Tymora's Luck (I could be wrong). Are any of the FR gods known outside the Toril crystal sphere?
1) There are indeed several Pantheons on Toril, but all answer to AO...:
Faerunian, Elven, Dwarven, Orc, Halfling, Untherian, Mulhorandi, Matzican, Kara-Turan, etc...
All have felt to some degree the effects of the ToT, though the Faerunian pantheon was affected most. To some degree the effects on the other pantheons have been documented in canon. (a battle between Clangeddin and an elven deity who's names escapes me for the moment, is one example).
2) Yes and no... the gods as they are represented on Toril are sometimes aspects of greater beings. Lloth (Lolth) is an often used example for this. She exists both at the same time in various 'crystal spheres' as a deity. She can be slain in from a Torillian point of view without any effect on Greyhawk's Oerth for example. She just would lose control on Toril and her portfolio would be redistributed by Ao... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:40:52
By the way, my dear Lacerta, would you like to cut your teeth on a little puzzle I made?  Hehe, I don't think it's like anything you would have seen -- though I could be wrong, it has been known to happen . . . . |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:31:30
quote:
Originally posted by AraznBlair
You brought up a good point about overgods. I think that AO is limited to Toril only. [...]
So I think that All Pantheons will have one Over God to them. Above those that are Greator Powers.
I suppose that makes sense . . . sort of a hierarchy. Some other big-shot's in charge of the D&D multiverse.
But you seem to have raised two more questions, at least for me. Probably both are answered in some source book somewhere . . . .
Anyay, first: aren't there actually seperate pantheons on Toril? There's the Celestial Bureaucracy (basically lifted wholesale from our own Far East) and the Maztican pantheon (again, cut-and-pasted-just-change-the-names, this time from Mesoamerica). I don't know if there are others. How do they interact? Did they go through the Time of Troubles? If they were cast down as well, that would indicate that they interact with the "regular" pantheon. It's just that they don't seem to do that in the mortal world . . . .
Anyway, the other question is similar: Echon mentioned that the gods have limits on planar travel. Does that mean that they can't go to another world? That seems strange, what with the Spelljamer setting. And I think that Finder went to Krynn in Tymora's Luck (I could be wrong). Are any of the FR gods known outside the Toril crystal sphere? |
| Echon |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 17:10:30
Do you know if he is mentioned in any game products?
-Echon |
| AraznBlair |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:40:22
All I really remember is that he was trapped in a gemstone (can't remember its name) that was forged by Reorx. Some of the gods trapped Chaos in there and it was finally the Idra that released him. There was then a huge war that united most of Ansalon, good and evil, forcing not only Chaos to leave but the other gods as well. So not much is really said in depth about him. |
| Echon |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:31:29
I have read the Chaos Chronicle (or whatever their English titles are) but I have forgotten complete about Chaos. Anyone here who knows more about him?
Edit: If I recall correctly, he is the Lord of All and Nothing (there is most likely a better way to translate this) and in the books it is said that he is the one who created the gods of Krynn.
Thanks for bringing him up.
-Echon |
| AraznBlair |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:27:04
You brought up a good point about overgods. I think that AO is limited to Toril only. I came abou this conclusion because if any of you read Dragon Lance there is the Father of All Gods named Chaos. Though he was trapped in a gem in the end he was released.
So I think that All Pantheons will have one Over God to them. Above those that are Greator Powers. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 06:15:59
Actually, I haven't read that book . . . yet. So don't spoil the puzzle for me. I want a chance to give up -- I mean, solve it myself. |
| Bellua Aeneus Lacerta |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 00:43:16
Yes, he's pretty good at these puzzles and riddles . . . just look at his name! Personally, I wouldn't want to be in anything HE DMs -- he'd put in far too many of that! ()
You mean you didn't fill out a grid and do the logic puzzle while reading "The City of Ravens"? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 00:22:49
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
Yes, he's pretty good at these puzzles and riddles . . . just look at his name! Personally, I wouldn't want to be in anything HE DMs -- he'd put in far too many of that! () |
| lowtech |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 22:23:01
In the Planescape setting, some crystal spheres have overgods, others don't. Ao is the overgod of Toril only.
My biggest problem with 3rd edition is the way they removed the Realms from Planescape cosmology. I usually stick with canon material, but I refuse to recongnize that change.
I Hate Wizards of the Coast!!! |
| Echon |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 17:04:32
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Super-entity, i don't understand the other
Quite likely because I cannot spell.
What I intended to say is sovereignty. In French: la souveraineté.
-Echon |
| zemd |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:55:10
Super-entity, i don't understand the other |
| Echon |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
It could answer our question too, Lord AO is superentity (... don't know if that word is good english) that rules every world, planes,...
Did you intend to say super-entity or suverenity?
-Echon |
| zemd |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:35:32
Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
It could answer our question too, Lord AO is superentity (... don't know if that word is good english) that rules every world, planes,... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 03:01:18
quote:
Originally posted by Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Ao is all!!
The beginning and the ending!!
The Alpha and Omega!!
HeHeHe
I never noticed that . . . you're right, that could very well be what "Ao" stands for.
Of course, due to my Catholic upbringing, I can't say I like that interpretation, but this is just fantasy . . . and suspension of disbelief is just as important as when watching Star Trek. (Sometimes less. But I shouldn't get started on that, or Alaundo will revoke my entry rights to the Library!  ) |
| Bellua Aeneus Lacerta |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 01:28:19
Ao is all!!
The beginning and the ending!!
The Alpha and Omega!!
HeHeHe |
