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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 12:10:48
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Recently I have been reading the Plancescape Campaign Setting Boxed Set which I have just got hold of and I wondered if Ao's influence is limited to the crystal sphere in which Toril lies? Is he ceator of all the planes or only Abeir-Toril and everything in that world? Is he subject to limits of ordinary gods with respect to planar travels?
-Echon
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"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 13:17:04
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| IMO Ao is the god of every plane, even if he has an other name in other places than Toril |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 13:49:10
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I have never heard of an overgod of any campaign other than Forgotten Realms.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 16:48:15
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SPOILER-Avatar Trilogy
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At the end of the Avatar Trilogy, yet another overgod asks Ao if his "realm" is now under control....this might leave one to believe that there are several overgods who are in charge of various realms across the universe...just because he/she/it isn't mentioned in the canon doesn't mean he/she/it has yet to be discovered..... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 17:02:29
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You are probably aware of this already but some speculate that Ao is talking to the Dungeon Master, to whom even overgods answer.
Secondly, if it is not mentioned in any canon products it is left to the DM's discretion. Personally I would limit Ao to Toril only.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 20:48:16
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Since no one knows for sure what the Lady of Pain really is, she might be seen as a kind of overgod with her abilitity to keep all the gods out of Sigil, cancel Gates and imprison every creature in Sigil no matter how powerful.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 22:02:00
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Personally, I've always liked the idea that Ao is the overlord of all of the D&D worlds, while the superior he was talking to at the end of Waterdeep was the lord of all RPG worlds . . . not just D&D. But that's just an idea that I had after reading that part.
In my opinion, anyway, the reason that Ao isn't really known in other worlds (i.e., Krynn) is because he wasn't known in the Realms (in the canon sense) until the Time of Troubles. The Realms was the only one to experience that one. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 22:36:39
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Echon-
According to what? Everyone always says that that Ao was speaking to a DM, but there is no evidence of it...
I don't think that a DM would have to speak with Ao...for Ao is asked a question...one the "DM" would know were he/she present. In this case, I think that the author's purpose was to show how deep and mysterious the Realms are, and that even Ao, a deity whose presence was so entirely awe inspiring to the mortals who saw him, is but a pawn to yet another god...
While I do agree with you that the DM is somewhere in that lineage (perhaps just above the god Ao speaks with, perhaps thousands of deities removed), and it is a pretty cool thought that Ao might be speaking to a DM, I don't see a lot of evidence to back up everyone's claims, especially when you consider that if that was the author's intent, he would have made it much more obvious...I guess to each their own... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2003 : 22:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
According to what? Everyone always says that that Ao was speaking to a DM, but there is no evidence of it...
...neither is there any evidence that he is talking with yet another over-overgod and I am well aware of this, i.e. I do not claim that it is the truth, I simply like the thought of it.
quote:
While I do agree with you that the DM is somewhere in that lineage (perhaps just above the god Ao speaks with, perhaps thousands of deities removed), and it is a pretty cool thought that Ao might be speaking to a DM, I don't see a lot of evidence to back up everyone's claims, especially when you consider that if that was the author's intent, he would have made it much more obvious...I guess to each their own...
Perhaps it was the author's intent to puzzle people with regard to the identity of the one Ao is talking to. Not really hinting at anything on purpose to make people debate this topic, in which he succeeded.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 01:28:19
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Ao is all!!
The beginning and the ending!!
The Alpha and Omega!!
 HeHeHe |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 03:01:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Ao is all!!
The beginning and the ending!!
The Alpha and Omega!!
HeHeHe
I never noticed that . . . you're right, that could very well be what "Ao" stands for.
Of course, due to my Catholic upbringing, I can't say I like that interpretation, but this is just fantasy . . . and suspension of disbelief is just as important as when watching Star Trek. (Sometimes less.  But I shouldn't get started on that, or Alaundo will revoke my entry rights to the Library!  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:35:32
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Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
It could answer our question too, Lord AO is superentity (... don't know if that word is good english) that rules every world, planes,... |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:39:09
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
It could answer our question too, Lord AO is superentity (... don't know if that word is good english) that rules every world, planes,...
Did you intend to say super-entity or suverenity?
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 16:55:10
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| Super-entity, i don't understand the other |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 17:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Super-entity, i don't understand the other
Quite likely because I cannot spell.
What I intended to say is sovereignty. In French: la souveraineté.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2003 : 22:23:01
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In the Planescape setting, some crystal spheres have overgods, others don't. Ao is the overgod of Toril only.
My biggest problem with 3rd edition is the way they removed the Realms from Planescape cosmology. I usually stick with canon material, but I refuse to recongnize that change.
I Hate Wizards of the Coast!!! |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 00:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
Well done Bellua, i never noticed the Alpha and Omega thing.
Yes, he's pretty good at these puzzles and riddles . . . just look at his name! Personally, I wouldn't want to be in anything HE DMs -- he'd put in far too many of that! () |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 00:43:16
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Yes, he's pretty good at these puzzles and riddles . . . just look at his name! Personally, I wouldn't want to be in anything HE DMs -- he'd put in far too many of that! ()
You mean you didn't fill out a grid and do the logic puzzle while reading "The City of Ravens"? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 06:15:59
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| Actually, I haven't read that book . . . yet. So don't spoil the puzzle for me. I want a chance to give up -- I mean, solve it myself. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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AraznBlair
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:27:04
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You brought up a good point about overgods. I think that AO is limited to Toril only. I came abou this conclusion because if any of you read Dragon Lance there is the Father of All Gods named Chaos. Though he was trapped in a gem in the end he was released.
So I think that All Pantheons will have one Over God to them. Above those that are Greator Powers. |
Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:31:29
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I have read the Chaos Chronicle (or whatever their English titles are) but I have forgotten complete about Chaos. Anyone here who knows more about him?
Edit: If I recall correctly, he is the Lord of All and Nothing (there is most likely a better way to translate this) and in the books it is said that he is the one who created the gods of Krynn.
Thanks for bringing him up.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
Edited by - Echon on 11 Mar 2003 16:34:14 |
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AraznBlair
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 16:40:22
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| All I really remember is that he was trapped in a gemstone (can't remember its name) that was forged by Reorx. Some of the gods trapped Chaos in there and it was finally the Idra that released him. There was then a huge war that united most of Ansalon, good and evil, forcing not only Chaos to leave but the other gods as well. So not much is really said in depth about him. |
Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2003 : 17:10:30
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Do you know if he is mentioned in any game products?
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by AraznBlair
You brought up a good point about overgods. I think that AO is limited to Toril only. [...]
So I think that All Pantheons will have one Over God to them. Above those that are Greator Powers.
I suppose that makes sense . . . sort of a hierarchy. Some other big-shot's in charge of the D&D multiverse.
But you seem to have raised two more questions, at least for me. Probably both are answered in some source book somewhere . . . . 
Anyay, first: aren't there actually seperate pantheons on Toril? There's the Celestial Bureaucracy (basically lifted wholesale from our own Far East) and the Maztican pantheon (again, cut-and-pasted-just-change-the-names, this time from Mesoamerica). I don't know if there are others. How do they interact? Did they go through the Time of Troubles? If they were cast down as well, that would indicate that they interact with the "regular" pantheon. It's just that they don't seem to do that in the mortal world . . . .
Anyway, the other question is similar: Echon mentioned that the gods have limits on planar travel. Does that mean that they can't go to another world? That seems strange, what with the Spelljamer setting. And I think that Finder went to Krynn in Tymora's Luck (I could be wrong). Are any of the FR gods known outside the Toril crystal sphere? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:40:52
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By the way, my dear Lacerta, would you like to cut your teeth on a little puzzle I made?  Hehe, I don't think it's like anything you would have seen -- though I could be wrong, it has been known to happen . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 09:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
But you seem to have raised two more questions, at least for me. Probably both are answered in some source book somewhere . . . .
Anyay, first: aren't there actually seperate pantheons on Toril? There's the Celestial Bureaucracy (basically lifted wholesale from our own Far East) and the Maztican pantheon (again, cut-and-pasted-just-change-the-names, this time from Mesoamerica). I don't know if there are others. How do they interact? Did they go through the Time of Troubles? If they were cast down as well, that would indicate that they interact with the "regular" pantheon. It's just that they don't seem to do that in the mortal world . . . .
Anyway, the other question is similar: Echon mentioned that the gods have limits on planar travel. Does that mean that they can't go to another world? That seems strange, what with the Spelljamer setting. And I think that Finder went to Krynn in Tymora's Luck (I could be wrong). Are any of the FR gods known outside the Toril crystal sphere?
1) There are indeed several Pantheons on Toril, but all answer to AO...:
Faerunian, Elven, Dwarven, Orc, Halfling, Untherian, Mulhorandi, Matzican, Kara-Turan, etc...
All have felt to some degree the effects of the ToT, though the Faerunian pantheon was affected most. To some degree the effects on the other pantheons have been documented in canon. (a battle between Clangeddin and an elven deity who's names escapes me for the moment, is one example).
2) Yes and no... the gods as they are represented on Toril are sometimes aspects of greater beings. Lloth (Lolth) is an often used example for this. She exists both at the same time in various 'crystal spheres' as a deity. She can be slain in from a Torillian point of view without any effect on Greyhawk's Oerth for example. She just would lose control on Toril and her portfolio would be redistributed by Ao... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 10:04:34
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[Bookwyrm scratches his head.]
Hmm, I guess I could see how that works . . . . but is there a central "body" for the deity (like Lolth/Lloth), or is it sort of a hive-mind? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 10:15:02
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| Hehehe... I understand the scratching, I felt the same when I first pondered this puzzle... But as with all things religion based, I do think some things are better left unexplained and mysterious. Besides the game or story impact on that high a level (not character level) is so minimal to non-existent that I wouldn't worry about it... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 11:10:29
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| So what's the planar limit Echon was talking about? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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AraznBlair
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 15:57:22
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Echon- I can't remember many source books for Krynn out side of a few such as the Chronicles nor do I know of any mention of Chaos in those same books. Maybe another well verse scribe could help you there. I'm more familliar with the novels more than anything.
If I remember correctly Tiamat is Takesis (sp?) from Krynn as well. They both are represented by a 5 headed Cromatic dragon. In the 2E Powers and Pantheon it mentions how the Mulhondran gods came to Toril when another god stole the people of another world. I can't remember the exact wording at the moment for I can not find that specific tome but I am pretty sure it is in there.
As for the TOT I beleve it did affect all gods. In one of RAS books it was mentioned that Lloth took her avatar form in Menzobarrazen (sp?) just prior to the war with the Dwarves of Myrthal(sp?) Hall. I agree with Mumadar Ibn Huzal that it seemed to only have affected the Fauren gods the most or more than likely thats all we really know about since those are the most written about gods. |
Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare |
Edited by - AraznBlair on 12 Mar 2003 15:58:05 |
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Bellua Aeneus Lacerta
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2003 : 23:36:27
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| Accepted--Put you puzzle thread somewhere Bookwyrm. |
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Lord Ao
