| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jebeddo |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 22:34:08
Hail, fellow scribes of Candlekeep.
In the last few pages of the Epic Level Handbook, there was a list of character stats of FR characters, including Elminster, Storm, and other Chosens of Mystra. What I noticed was that none of them could cast Epic Spells (certainly they more than qualify), whereas a priestess of Auril so detailed could (and she was of a lower level). Is this a restriction on the Chosen of Mystra or something? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 18:03:08
Seeker jebeddo,
As far as I knew, Karsus' Folly stopped all of that in its tracks. However, others here have mentioned that the Simbul and others do have the epic spellcasting feat, so hmm....
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by jebeddo
Hail, fellow scribes of Candlekeep.
In the last few pages of the Epic Level Handbook, there was a list of character stats of FR characters, including Elminster, Storm, and other Chosens of Mystra. What I noticed was that none of them could cast Epic Spells (certainly they more than qualify), whereas a priestess of Auril so detailed could (and she was of a lower level). Is this a restriction on the Chosen of Mystra or something?
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 05:33:53
Not necessarily. As I said, that's how it should be roleplayed. (And as for Halaster, I'd take that one to mean you have to have Mystra's direct intervention to come back; a simple atonement wouldn't do.) |
| jebeddo |
Posted - 19 Dec 2004 : 03:09:52
Aye...thus we reached another grey part of the D&D and FR rules. *sigh* |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 18:28:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmm... wasn't there an elven character in the Return of the Archwizards series that used both Shadow Weave and the Weave? I'm not sure coz I haven't read the books but I think it was mentioned somewhere.
Galaeron Nimedhu (sp?). But let's not talk about that trilogy, since it also made all the white hats a bunch of bumbling idiots.
Elvs are part of the Weave ;-)
However Galaeron also indicated that it was getting harder to use the Weave.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 17:53:47
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Hmm... wasn't there an elven character in the Return of the Archwizards series that used both Shadow Weave and the Weave? I'm not sure coz I haven't read the books but I think it was mentioned somewhere.
Galaeron Nimedhu (sp?). But let's not talk about that trilogy, since it also made all the white hats a bunch of bumbling idiots. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 17:38:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That would be how you should describe it in roleplay, but the game aspect is immediate: anyone with the Shadow Weave feat is barred from ever tapping the Weave, ever again.
Unless their name is Halaster Blackcloak. 
Hmm... wasn't there an elven character in the Return of the Archwizards series that used both Shadow Weave and the Weave? I'm not sure coz I haven't read the books but I think it was mentioned somewhere. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 16:51:21
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That would be how you should describe it in roleplay, but the game aspect is immediate: anyone with the Shadow Weave feat is barred from ever tapping the Weave, ever again.
Unless their name is Halaster Blackcloak. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 15:26:42
Shadow Weave Magic [General] (PGF p43)
Instead of using The Weave to cast magic (like everyone else), you now use The Shadow Weave.
1. When casting a spell from school of Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy, gain a +1 bonus to DC and a
+1 bonus for overcoming Spell Resistance.
2. When casting a spell from the school of Evocation or Transmutation that does not have the [darkness]
subtype, your effective Caster level is one lower.
3. You cannot cast spells with the [light] subtype.
4. You can use magic items that are based on The Shadow Weave.
Insidious Magic [Metamagic] (PGF p40)
Attempts to use Divination spells to detect (i.e., Detect Magic) or reveal (i.e., See Invisibility) your spells by creatures without the Shadow Weave Magic feat require a Caster check to succeed. This bonus does not apply to spell of the Evocation or Transmutation schools.
Pernicious Magic [Metamagic] (PGF p42)
When casting a spell on a creature without the Shadow Weave Magic feat, receive a +4 bonus to overcome Spell Resistance. This bonus does not apply to spell of the Evocation or Transmutation schools.
Tenacious Magic [General] (PGF p45)
Attempts to dispel your spells by creatures without the Shadow Weave Magic feat are at +5. This bonus does not apply to spell of the Evocation or Transmutation schools.
There does not appear to be much limitations.
This though "Instead of using The Weave to cast magic (like everyone else), you now use The Shadow Weave." implies (if not clearly states) the Weave can no longer be used at all to cast spells. It does seem to apply magic items made with Weave or Shadow Weave both can be used. As it does not state can not use normal magic items. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 14:54:19
Ah, found it. FRCS page 57. "The more familiar a mortal becomes with the shadow weave the more divorced they become from the weave." It says it becomes harder to affect spells worked through the Weave. It does not say "how" exactly. They're also barred from spells with the [light] descriptor. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 11:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That would be how you should describe it in roleplay, but the game aspect is immediate: anyone with the Shadow Weave feat is barred from ever tapping the Weave, ever again.
I keep looking at the feat description and do not see this stated.
In some ways I can understand such a rule, some feats are active all the time (two weapon fighting for example) that can be always accessed, however others (still spell for example) is specifically chosen to be used when one decides to do so.
Of course it still leave open all that magic being cast and not detected by the Goddess of Magic. Espcially when those use the Weave to dispell shadow weave , or are attacked by it. Yes I know logic does not apply to fantasy, but suspension of belief totally makes little sense to me.
I can easily picture a muticlass using shadow weave for one class and weave for another.
|
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 10:36:19
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Way off topic but regarding the shadow weave, the more one uses the shadow weave the more one finds it harder to tap the weave correct? I remember reading this but can't remember where.
That would be how you should describe it in roleplay, but the game aspect is immediate: anyone with the Shadow Weave feat is barred from ever tapping the Weave, ever again. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 Dec 2004 : 00:41:29
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Way off topic but regarding the shadow weave, the more one uses the shadow weave the more one finds it harder to tap the weave correct? I remember reading this but can't remember where.
I can not find this yet in game design. What I do get is some magic does not work at all, some works better or worst (DC checks). |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 16:18:08
Way off topic but regarding the shadow weave, the more one uses the shadow weave the more one finds it harder to tap the weave correct? I remember reading this but can't remember where. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Dec 2004 : 00:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Okay that sounds interesting. So if Mystra rather upset with another diety, perhaps could prevent their Clerics from casting spells. Perhaps you can find a citation about how this all works. How magic works is always an interesting discussion after all.
Page 55 of the FRCS, "The Weave is a conduit spellcasters use to channel magical energy for thier spells, both arcane and divine."
Magic of Faerun also says this or words to that effect.
She can only restrict spellcasters if they are in Realmspace/Toril/Faerun. If they leave to the planes or elsewhere they are no longer under her rules. Ditto for mortals who use the Shadow Weave. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 18:50:59
Okay that sounds interesting. So if Mystra rather upset with another diety, perhaps could prevent their Clerics from casting spells. Perhaps you can find a citation about how this all works. How magic works is always an interesting discussion after all.
Perhaps the new release will also address this issue, as well.
In certain ways I can see an argument Epic is not a 10th level spell, the SRD and ELH indicates for almost all reasons Epic spells are considered 10th level, it did not say they are 10th level. They however still are more powerful then level 9 spells.
*nods* Chosen discussion ended, though in my mind was an indirect question for Mr. Greenwood about the prolifiration of Chosen. Might have been answered already, that such was not planed any more then the last of the Seven Sisters. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 18:20:02
Bookwyrm,
Divine casters also have thier magic filtered through the Weave unless they are Shadow Weave casters. :) The FRCS and Magic of Faerun both say this but atm I don't have page quotes. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 13:21:27
*nods* Will have to wait and see what it says. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 13:20:43
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Well I certainly hope so. I want a good explanation for it, or I'll continue with my stance on no epic spells in the Realms. (Again, I'll say I dislike epic spells regardless, and if I were DM would probably ban them anyway, but that's aside from the problem with the Realmslore.)
I hope so too!
Speaking as a DM I will not ban epic spellcasting, but knowing my players like I do I doubt very much if they will take epic spellcasting as it's more trouble than its worth sometimes.
But as for me I'll be throwing down epic spells on them like a sum-b when the time comes. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 07:20:33
Well I certainly hope so. I want a good explanation for it, or I'll continue with my stance on no epic spells in the Realms. (Again, I'll say I dislike epic spells regardless, and if I were DM would probably ban them anyway, but that's aside from the problem with the Realmslore.) |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 06:41:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This will not provide an answer, or should not, such events would have occured before the no 10th level ban was imposed. *shakes head on read back* apparently Lost Empires will reach to the ban and explain why spells more powerful then level 9 (Epic spells) are not 10th level.
Incorrect.
Lost Empires of Faerūn is not a "snapshot" book in the vein of the old Arcane Age series; it's not about adventuring in the past or doing things "the way they once were done." It's about bringing the magic, lore, threats, and legacies of these fallen empires into the modern Realms. The reason it discusses Mystra's Ban at all is because Mystra's Ban--and elven high magic, and mythals and the like--are all a legacy of these dead (or funny-smelling) empires. Part of the book's content is devoted to finding a place for epic spellcasting in the Realms, and bringing it into line not only with the epic rules, but the rich history of the Realms. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 04:16:37
" Someone will have to let us know what Lost Empires says on this, then. "
This will not provide an answer, or should not, such events would have occured before the no 10th level ban was imposed. *shakes head on read back* apparently Lost Empires will reach to the ban and explain why spells more powerful then level 9 (Epic spells) are not 10th level.
The Weave is certainly FR material, not core rules or other game worlds (or if it is I can not find any quick refference to such). There is one thing that has traveled though the game versions is that Elves were more magical then other races, but this does not indicate they were part of the magic itself.
High Elven magic could be part of the answe of course, if both have Elven blood thus connected to the Weave.
As I understand it Shar also banned 10th ;evel spells, perhaps to prevent discovery of the Shadow weave.
|
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 02:54:17
Someone will have to let us know what Lost Empires says on this, then.
As for the priestess being a mortal, yes, she is. But mortality doesn't have anything to do with it. Well, not in this case. Mystra's ban has no effect on divine power, just spells that use the Weave. This means that unless Shar has done the same thing (and I think she probably did), you can use arcane epic spells with the Shadow Weave. (Though probably not evocation/transmutation spells . . . and move mountain is a transmutation spell.) Divine spellcasting wouldn't tap into the Weave.
Hmm, on second thought, I can think of a few places where it would seem that a divine caster is using the Weave. Not the least of which is the fact that clerics can benefit from the Shadow Weave feat. I don't much like that -- divine power comes from the god you serve, not just Mystra -- but it would be a way to make certain that epic spells can't be used in the Realms.
I wonder if epic spells could be used on other planes, then? In the standard cosmology of 2e, the Weave was only for Toril. In the verson of the cosmology in PGtF, you don't have another "base world" to use, so perhaps the "universe" refered to on page 4 of MoF would be the entire cosmology. It would certainly mean that a Shadow Weave user who travels to another plane still gets the benefits of that feat (otherwise, the kindest thing would be that the individual's magic use returns to normal, but perhaps (s)he simply loses all benefits but keeps all penalties).
Regardless, if we use the Weave as only for arcane casting, then Auril's cleric could certainly use epic spells. In fact, I'd let Mystra's Chosen use epic casting as well; if any arcane caster can be trusted not to abuse magic, it's a Chosen. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 23:29:43
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*color me confused*
The explaination should indeed be interesting.
I had though I found the answer, however FR contains many riddles still. ;-)
Eyup, they've managed to raise the bar with this one though. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 21:49:01
*color me confused*
Core rules indicate Epic is 10th (or better for most reasons) level spells though FR can get some exceptions from core rules under 3.x.
Two at least, one Cleric and one Wizard, can cast Epic spells.
Other high level Wixard can not cast Epic spells, perhaps did not take feat to do so?
The explaination should indeed be interesting.
I had though I found the answer, however FR contains many riddles still. ;-) |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 21:24:04
Two points (above and beyond the point I made above):
-In ELH, the divine spellcaster capable of casting epic spells is Iyraclea, a cleric of Auril. As a mortal, she should be subject to Mystra's Ban (if epic spells are prohibited), but she clearly is not.
-The Simbul possesses the Epic Spellcasting feat, which makes the argument that "epic spells are subject to Mystra's Ban, but only for arcane casters" pretty weightless. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 20:26:58
*nods* Okay was confused, Auril could cast Epic spells in the write up. I missed the fact that Auril (at least one is) is a Goddess and as such not subject to mortal rules.
At least certainly my take on the matter at this time, if the cited Auril is not a Goddess I need to see an explaination of this "whereas a priestess of Auril so detailed could" either a misread or error in printing? |
| Garen Thal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 19:27:15
Lost Empires of Faerūn is slated to contain a definitive explanation for what Mystra's Ban means for epic spellcasters both arcane and divine. For the moment, I would assume that epic spells are "outside" the level rating system, and therefore not subject to Mystra's Ban as regards 10th+ level spells. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 19:14:39
Odd thought occured to me, Divive casters can cast Epic spells and Arcane ones can not.
How much does this effect game balance at high levels?
Any ideas out there? |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 18:12:27
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's exactly what I said, that the epic spells are considered 10th level.   
Oh, forget it. 
I can't heeeaarrr yooooou!! la la la la la la la!! 
I actually have no problems with that if that is indeed what the ELH says (and it does).
I'm more inclined to buy into the high elf magic only thing now. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 17:49:16
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's exactly what I said, that the epic spells are considered 10th level.
Oh, forget it.
However jebeddo and Elf_Friend requested for a citation ;-) |
