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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 22:34:08
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Hail, fellow scribes of Candlekeep.
In the last few pages of the Epic Level Handbook, there was a list of character stats of FR characters, including Elminster, Storm, and other Chosens of Mystra. What I noticed was that none of them could cast Epic Spells (certainly they more than qualify), whereas a priestess of Auril so detailed could (and she was of a lower level). Is this a restriction on the Chosen of Mystra or something?
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"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 05:39:45
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Mystra banned all spells over 9th level.
Is this the answer? I don't know. I just find it hard to balance The Epic Level Handbook with Realmslore.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 18:19:17
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The Simbul and Iyraclea have the Epic Spellcasting feat.
the Players Guide to Faerun has epic spells, prc's and feat so I would assume that epic casters can use them. As to the ban and such you might try the Ask Richard Baker thread on the WoTC forums. |
Edited by - Mystery_Man on 13 Dec 2004 18:31:29 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 23:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The Simbul and Iyraclea have the Epic Spellcasting feat.
the Players Guide to Faerun has epic spells, prc's and feat so I would assume that epic casters can use them. As to the ban and such you might try the Ask Richard Baker thread on the WoTC forums.
Well met
No need to venture from these walls, Elf_Friend, for Richard Baker can be interrogated asked such questions right here  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Alaundo on 13 Dec 2004 23:30:08 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 23:45:24
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| Well heck, now I have to know. Consider it asked. :) |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 06:13:42
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I've asked the question about epic spells before. The vague conclusion that was drawn was that epic spells aren't really leveled spells (they're treated as 10th for saves and such, but they don't use a normal spell slot).
However, comma, the Player's Guide to Faerun has an epic spell in it from Netheril. This spell was one that stopped working after Mystra I forbade the use of over-9th arcane spells. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be reached is that epic spells are over-9th spells. However, it can apparently now be used, because not only is it in the book to be used, the city of Shade is apparently not falling.
I'd had some hopes for WotC's trend . . . it seemed they were listening to the long-time roleplayers, focusing less on game and more on lore. But I can't figure out any way to reconcile arcane epic spells with established Realmslore. Higher-than-9th spell slots are one thing -- they're used to power 9th or lower spells, especially if metamagicked. Proctiv's move mountain isn't likely to be used very often (it's a base Spellcraft DC of 280, which isn't anything to sneeze at), but it's there to be used and it's apparently in use. Either Mytra II's slacking off, or the people who wrote that in didn't read Magic of Faerun, much less any earlier works. (And don't give me that "But, Bookwyrm, they're using the Shadow Weave, Mystra doesn't control that!" -- the spell doesn't say that it's a Shadow Weave-only spell, and Shar's not stupid enough to let people get enough power to challenge her the way Karsus did Mystryl.) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 11:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Proctiv's move mountain isn't likely to be used very often (it's a base Spellcraft DC of 280, which isn't anything to sneeze at), but it's there to be used and it's apparently in use. Either Mytra II's slacking off, or the people who wrote that in didn't read Magic of Faerun, much less any earlier works.
Well, it is in use, but it wasn't cast while the ban was in effect, it was cast years before... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 17:59:41
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Nice try, but no good.  The other Netheril cities had theirs cast before the ban, after all, and they all came tumbling down. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 18:47:32
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quote:
However, comma, the Player's Guide to Faerun has an epic spell in it from Netheril. This spell was one that stopped working after Mystra I forbade the use of over-9th arcane spells. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be reached is that epic spells are over-9th spells. However, it can apparently now be used, because not only is it in the book to be used, the city of Shade is apparently not falling.
It didn't stop working because she banned it, it stopped working because Karsus killed her and magic went bye-bye for a while. Meanwhile the city of Shade is safely tucked away in the shadow plane where none of this is being affected. Once magic started working again everything was OK. She banned the spell from being cast that is all. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 21:00:50
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| Better. But if tenth and higher are banned, then the active spells would be banned; the city still shouldn't be able to float, unless Shar is making an exception. And I've already stated my reasons for why she wouldn't be. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 21:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Better. But if tenth and higher are banned, then the active spells would be banned; the city still shouldn't be able to float....
Is this your conclusion or is this in writing somewhere? Because all I gather is that she is preventing them from being cast. The ban preventing them from being cast does not retroactively dispel anything that may have been cast before the ban. Granted its a loophole but its a huge one. Big enough to float a currently existing-upsidedown-previously enspelled hundreds of years ago before the ban-mountain through, as a matter of fact. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 22:09:02
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quote:
From Magic of Faerun[/i], page 5[/i]
. . . she was able to repair the Weave so that such powerful magic was no longer possible.
I don't have any 1- or 2e sources in front of me, but that seems pretty straightforward. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 23:05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Better. But if tenth and higher are banned, then the active spells would be banned; the city still shouldn't be able to float, unless Shar is making an exception. And I've already stated my reasons for why she wouldn't be.
I'd also go with the casting of such spells being banned, but not the operating of existing ones. Why? Because when the ban was placed, there were no 10th-level (or higher) spells in effect anywhere on Toril -- all such spells had ended with Karsus's Ultimate Mistake spell. Sure it's a loophole, but it's one that I think could have easily slid by. Mystra obviously didn't consider that the city of Shade might come sliding back...
After all, look at Prohibition here in America during the 1920's -- it was illegal to sell, transport, or manufacture alcohol... But it wasn't illegal to drink it. |
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jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 23:14:40
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| So then, why is this priestess of Auril (who has a CR of about 25)able to cast 3 epic spells while El (CR 39) cannot??? |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 23:22:59
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| Perhaps caster level impaired? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 00:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
From Magic of Faerun[/i], page 5[/i]
. . . she was able to repair the Weave so that such powerful magic was no longer possible.
I don't have any 1- or 2e sources in front of me, but that seems pretty straightforward.
Until you read the whole paragraph which leaves another gaping loophole. The paragraph only infers that such magic is the magic Karsus used to try to achieve godhood. It says really nothing about the old 2E "10th level spells" and it doesnt say that Epic level spells are banned. Since Protiv's move mountain is an epic spell it's entirely castable and any such spell cast before that managed to escape Mystra's death (Shade) is completely functional.
Its wide open, presumably because the developers knew the ELH was coming down the pike. I just wish it was a tad more clear. Noting so far that Rich hasn't replied to my question. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 03:53:11
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As I've said before, on another thread, I strongly dislike a lot of the epic rules. Epic spells are one of them -- especially since I cannot find a way to put them in the realms. Or rather, I can't put in the arcane side of things; divine epic spells are still in play, which is an imbalance.
The fact is that epic spells are exactly what Mystra I banned. The only exception she made was for elves -- they could still have epic spells. Look at the lore -- elven high mages could still practice after the Karsus Incident, and their signature was the mythal. This can still happen, and it's considered an epic power. This is the only exception, so the inference is that epic spells cannot be used unless you're an elven high mage.
I'll let Shade still float, but only because the whole empire is using the Shadow Weave; Shar might consider them possible assets. If they tick her off, of course, it'll come crashing down. Shar doesn't have the rules Mystra does (at least currently) about supplying or denying power. However, I don't think she'd let them do any other epic spells. And I really dislike epic spells anyway.
Do note, however, that I don't mind the slots supplied by taking the Improved Spell Capacity feat. Those aren't epic spells, and unless Heighten Spell is used to raise it over 9th level, it slips under the ban.
Jebeddo, sorry -- I forgot to get to this. The cleric has the Epic Spellcasting feat, while Elminster doesn't. (Perhaps someone here was noticing the fact that arcane epic spells are banned, but divine ones aren't.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 13:21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
As I've said before, on another thread, I strongly dislike a lot of the epic rules. Epic spells are one of them -- especially since I cannot find a way to put them in the realms. Or rather, I can't put in the arcane side of things; divine epic spells are still in play, which is an imbalance.
Personal preference. I'm not going to argue that one way or another, one DM trash is another's treasure.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
The fact is that epic spells are exactly what Mystra I banned.
I'm interested in facts, what book, what page does it exactly say this?
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Jebeddo, sorry -- I forgot to get to this. The cleric has the Epic Spellcasting feat, while Elminster doesn't. (Perhaps someone here was noticing the fact that arcane epic spells are banned, but divine ones aren't.)
The Simbul is a chosen and human and has both the feats required to cast epic spells. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 13:47:11
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Close as I can find right now is SRD which states.
"Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells."
Thus if keeping history consistant, Epic spells are banned because they are at least 10th level. I can not find at the moment any FR product that addresses the issue. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 16:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Close as I can find right now is SRD which states.
"Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells."
Thus if keeping history consistant, Epic spells are banned because they are at least 10th level. I can not find at the moment any FR product that addresses the issue.
Now that's getting somewhere. WoTC - Whoops!  |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 17:40:55
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That's exactly what I said, that the epic spells are considered 10th level.  
Oh, forget it.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 17:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's exactly what I said, that the epic spells are considered 10th level.
Oh, forget it.
However jebeddo and Elf_Friend requested for a citation ;-) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Dec 2004 18:31:53 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 18:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's exactly what I said, that the epic spells are considered 10th level.
Oh, forget it.
I can't heeeaarrr yooooou!! la la la la la la la!! 
I actually have no problems with that if that is indeed what the ELH says (and it does).
I'm more inclined to buy into the high elf magic only thing now. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 19:14:39
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Odd thought occured to me, Divive casters can cast Epic spells and Arcane ones can not.
How much does this effect game balance at high levels?
Any ideas out there? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 19:27:15
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| Lost Empires of Faerūn is slated to contain a definitive explanation for what Mystra's Ban means for epic spellcasters both arcane and divine. For the moment, I would assume that epic spells are "outside" the level rating system, and therefore not subject to Mystra's Ban as regards 10th+ level spells. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 20:26:58
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*nods* Okay was confused, Auril could cast Epic spells in the write up. I missed the fact that Auril (at least one is) is a Goddess and as such not subject to mortal rules.
At least certainly my take on the matter at this time, if the cited Auril is not a Goddess I need to see an explaination of this "whereas a priestess of Auril so detailed could" either a misread or error in printing? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 21:24:04
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Two points (above and beyond the point I made above):
-In ELH, the divine spellcaster capable of casting epic spells is Iyraclea, a cleric of Auril. As a mortal, she should be subject to Mystra's Ban (if epic spells are prohibited), but she clearly is not.
-The Simbul possesses the Epic Spellcasting feat, which makes the argument that "epic spells are subject to Mystra's Ban, but only for arcane casters" pretty weightless. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 21:49:01
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*color me confused*
Core rules indicate Epic is 10th (or better for most reasons) level spells though FR can get some exceptions from core rules under 3.x.
Two at least, one Cleric and one Wizard, can cast Epic spells.
Other high level Wixard can not cast Epic spells, perhaps did not take feat to do so?
The explaination should indeed be interesting.
I had though I found the answer, however FR contains many riddles still. ;-) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 23:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*color me confused*
The explaination should indeed be interesting.
I had though I found the answer, however FR contains many riddles still. ;-)
Eyup, they've managed to raise the bar with this one though. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 02:54:17
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Someone will have to let us know what Lost Empires says on this, then.
As for the priestess being a mortal, yes, she is. But mortality doesn't have anything to do with it. Well, not in this case. Mystra's ban has no effect on divine power, just spells that use the Weave. This means that unless Shar has done the same thing (and I think she probably did), you can use arcane epic spells with the Shadow Weave. (Though probably not evocation/transmutation spells . . . and move mountain is a transmutation spell.) Divine spellcasting wouldn't tap into the Weave.
Hmm, on second thought, I can think of a few places where it would seem that a divine caster is using the Weave. Not the least of which is the fact that clerics can benefit from the Shadow Weave feat. I don't much like that -- divine power comes from the god you serve, not just Mystra -- but it would be a way to make certain that epic spells can't be used in the Realms.
I wonder if epic spells could be used on other planes, then? In the standard cosmology of 2e, the Weave was only for Toril. In the verson of the cosmology in PGtF, you don't have another "base world" to use, so perhaps the "universe" refered to on page 4 of MoF would be the entire cosmology. It would certainly mean that a Shadow Weave user who travels to another plane still gets the benefits of that feat (otherwise, the kindest thing would be that the individual's magic use returns to normal, but perhaps (s)he simply loses all benefits but keeps all penalties).
Regardless, if we use the Weave as only for arcane casting, then Auril's cleric could certainly use epic spells. In fact, I'd let Mystra's Chosen use epic casting as well; if any arcane caster can be trusted not to abuse magic, it's a Chosen. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 04:16:37
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" Someone will have to let us know what Lost Empires says on this, then. "
This will not provide an answer, or should not, such events would have occured before the no 10th level ban was imposed. *shakes head on read back* apparently Lost Empires will reach to the ban and explain why spells more powerful then level 9 (Epic spells) are not 10th level.
The Weave is certainly FR material, not core rules or other game worlds (or if it is I can not find any quick refference to such). There is one thing that has traveled though the game versions is that Elves were more magical then other races, but this does not indicate they were part of the magic itself.
High Elven magic could be part of the answe of course, if both have Elven blood thus connected to the Weave.
As I understand it Shar also banned 10th ;evel spells, perhaps to prevent discovery of the Shadow weave.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Of Chosens and Epic Spells
