| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keftiu |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 08:40:12
Did anything ever come of the hints that Eilestree and Vhaeraun had merged? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 21:48:53
Great Reader Irennan,
Agreed again. I think if Ed intended for Eilestree to be a hippy god, there was enough written about her to get the hot, sexy, Dark Elf/Drow goddess that loves the good fun while at the same time can get her point across about wanting a better life and existence for her Elves.
It did seem rather off the cuff and lighthearted in thinking back on that interview again.
Best regards,
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 19:49:21
Though, I must say that enjoying life and its beauty is not incompatible with being effective, at all. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 19:42:46
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Kentinal,
Agreed. She is a free spirit, as is evidenced by her entry as a deity; however, what struck me is that when looking back to the days of the Ssri-tel-quessir, she was a very giving, loving, but focused deity with a very long game plan. She held back at a time knowing that she didn't have the power to go at it against the Dark Seldarine, and would have to advocate, slowly, but surely over a long period of time. Her plans, how she has implemented them, why, and all of that, just doesn't come across as hippy to me.
Just my take, for what it's worth.
Best regards,
Nor Vhaeraun comes across as the Bruce Willis type. Ed most likely put that in lightherated terms, and he was talking more about the followers than the deities themselves.
Though Eilistraee didn't hold back at the days of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir. She actively opposed Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur in Ilythiir back when Lolth's cult wasn't a thing yet, but she was alone, and she was defeated and hunted away from Iltyhiir. It was only at that point that she started to play the long game: she took care of the other Ssri-Tel-Quessir of Faerun, kept looking after a few followers that she still had in Ilythiir, and then became patroness of Miyeritar.
Not that it mattered, since Aryvandaar magic-nuked Miyeritar, and Eilistraee lost all the power she had and her church collapsed because of that. She couldn't do anything when the drow were exiled and Lolth took over, though she kept rebuilding and reaching to the drow. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 18:38:42
Great Reader Kentinal,
Agreed. She is a free spirit, as is evidenced by her entry as a deity; however, what struck me is that when looking back to the days of the Ssri-tel-quessir, she was a very giving, loving, but focused deity with a very long game plan. She held back at a time knowing that she didn't have the power to go at it against the Dark Seldarine, and would have to advocate, slowly, but surely over a long period of time. Her plans, how she has implemented them, why, and all of that, just doesn't come across as hippy to me.
Just my take, for what it's worth.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I really did not see Eilistraee or her followers as hippys either. However was interesting to hear Ed speak.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 17:42:26
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have obvious dogmatic differences, I honestly don't understand why their respective followers would waste lives and resources fighting each other (as depicted in the Wars of the Spider Queen book as well as Starlight and Shadows). Both religions have a precarious place in current drow society as well as on the surface, and there are scarce few places where they can worship their deities openly in the Underdark (much less so for Eilistraeeans). The prime enemy of both deities is Lolth, and she is the true subjugator of the drow (in their eyes) and I would think they would rather cooperate to an extent or ignore each other, rather than actively seek out to fight the enemy of their enemy.
WotSQ and LP made no sense whatsoever lore-wise or character-wise, and have rightfully been retconned (not even ignored; WotC just pretends they were never written). In his lore, Vhaeraun is portrayed as willing to put differences aside when it comes fighting Lolth, and Eilistraee is explicitly stated to not be against him per se, but as even mourning his cruelty. Yet, Smedman/Athans have Vhaeraun target Eilistraee first, which is idiotic. As I said, a bunch novels that amount to nothing but BS in terms of lore and characterization.
In Starlight and Shadows the conflict isn't random. Vhaeraunites are slavers, and Eilistraeans oppose slavery in all its forms. The Eilistraeans weren't attacking the Vhaeraunites because they were Vhaeraunites, but because they were enslaving drow kids (in Starlights and Shadows) or whoever generally.
But really, if you--as followers of Eilistraee--work to build relationships with other races, to build comsopolitan communities and generally *create* a place for the drow in the surface world--and then the Vhaeraunites come and start enslaving people and pushing the idea of drow supremacy, your goals are at odds too, not just your methods.
I guess that ignoring each other (when possible) is what would work until Lolth is defeated, but an active alliance would require a very specific scenario--and that isn't trying to kill Lolth, not on its own.
The assumption that if they allied and killed Lolth things would be resolved makes no sense. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun acknowledge that the drow can only be free through a revolution against the Lolthite regime. For Vhaeraun, the drow must then only drop the infighting and sexism, but retain the supremacist attitude. For Eilistraee, they also need to learn the importance of compassion, nurturing, and healing. The revolution must not be against Lolth herself in the beginning, but against her institution, because:
1)the drow must be part of the solution to their problem (and Eilistraee is explicitly stated to acknowledge this in canon), so Eilistraee and Vhaeraun killing Lolth solves nothing. The drow wouldn't understand what's wrong, and:
2)if Lolth died, the various drow factions (like wizards, certain houses, merchant clans, etc...) would spiral in a series of aimless wars to fill the new power vacuum. There must be an adversary, so that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun can unify the efforts of different factions, which also allows them to exert some control on the situation after the war, and prevent the drow factions from spiraling in the above-mentioned series of conflicts once the Lolthite institution is dismantled. That adversary is the Lolthite clergy, which wouldn't be possible with Lolth dead from the beginning. Lolth will die off without faith after the ordeal anyway (and she should already be dead like that, if the worldbuilding of the drow cared to explore the consequences of its own premises even in the most superficial manner), or she can be killed once the revolution is already going.
This is one of the MANY reasons WotSQ is such a massive narrative failure.
quote:
And on that interview I'm not sure I would also take Ed's word literally here regarding an alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. He may be speaking as an unreliable narrator when he talks about this since the actual affairs of the gods isn't really something most mortals would know about or completely comprehend. I would interpret his words as meaning that in the current timeline there is a common trend among the clergy of each faiths to cooperate, since Eilistraee's temporary absorption of Vhaeraun in the War of the Spider Queen books, where many Vhaeraunite priests were absorbed into the clergy of Eilistraee under her aspect as the Masked Lady. But now that they are separate deities again, I can't imagine them being true allies, since Vhaeraun has completely different vision for the drow in the surface than Eilistraee has. So there must have been a real radical shift between both deities to allow that, if that is actually the case (has either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee shifted to become Chaotic Neutral?). Either Eilistraee would ignore and turn a blind eye to Vhaeraun's crusade against the surface (which would entail overlooking likely attacks and atrocities committed against surface races as well as their subjugation and enslavement), or Vhaeraun in the new timeline has different view of the surfacers or how his followers are to acquire a homeland in the land above.
There wasn't a real absorption--as Ed said, Eilistraee merely took Vhaeraun's portfolio but spared him, while Mystra enclosed him in a dream in the Weave. The cooperation of the clergies wasn't a real cooperation either.
It's why I too was surprised by this being an actual alliance and not just a truce.
Ed did mention Vhaeraun being somewhat changed, in that he now encourages his followers to at least put up a facade of good citizens on the surface when it's beneficial (and that would include situations in which the Eilistraeans have already managed to gain a place for the drow in a surface area or a non-drow city/community, like in current Waterdeep). This is going to make the truce much easier to maintain, but from that to an alliance it's a big step.
That said, Ed didn't look like he was joking about the alliance itself, it sounds like they're actually working together. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 16:54:14
I really did not see Eilistraee or her followers as hippys either. However was interesting to hear Ed speak. |
| deserk |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 16:45:35
Though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have obvious dogmatic differences, I honestly don't understand why their respective followers would waste lives and resources fighting each other (as depicted in the Wars of the Spider Queen book as well as Starlight and Shadows). Both religions have a precarious place in current drow society as well as on the surface, and there are scarce few places where they can worship their deities openly in the Underdark (much less so for Eilistraeeans). The prime enemy of both deities is Lolth, and she is the true subjugator of the drow (in their eyes) and I would think they would rather cooperate to an extent or ignore each other, rather than actively seek out to fight the enemy of their enemy.
And on that interview I'm not sure I would also take Ed's word literally here regarding an alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun either. He may be speaking as an unreliable narrator when he talks about this since the actual affairs of the gods isn't really something most mortals would know about or completely comprehend. I would interpret his words as meaning that in the current timeline there is a common trend among the clergy of each faiths to cooperate, since Eilistraee's temporary absorption of Vhaeraun in the War of the Spider Queen books, where many Vhaeraunite priests were absorbed into the clergy of Eilistraee under her aspect as the Masked Lady. But now that they are separate deities again, I can't imagine them being true allies, since Vhaeraun has completely different vision for the drow in the surface than Eilistraee has. So there must have been a real radical shift between both deities to allow that, if that is actually the case (has either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee shifted to become Chaotic Neutral?). Either Eilistraee would ignore and turn a blind eye to Vhaeraun's crusade against the surface (which would entail overlooking likely attacks and atrocities committed against surface races as well as their subjugation and enslavement), or Vhaeraun in the new timeline has different view of the surfacers or how his followers are to acquire a homeland in the land above. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 05:56:02
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
I sort of figured that, but at the same time, it was hilarious. That was the last name drop I would have expected.
Best regards,
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 00:52:56
Lol I think the John Wayne/Bruce Willis comment was meant to imply that Vhaeraun and his followers are more no-nonsense and "macho" about how they handle things lol. If nothing else, the analogies were highly entertaining. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 16 Sep 2020 : 00:40:10
Great Readers Irennan and CorellonsDevout,
Wow, that was unexpected from that interview. It was absolutely an affirmation that Vhaeraun and Eilestree are allies: 100%.
The example of Vhaeraun being a John Wayne or Bruce Willis'esque character was the enormous surprise to me. I never took, from reading Vhaeraun, that that deity was like that, but you have it from the man himself, so there you go.
Thank you for that share Great Reader CorellonsDevout.
Best regards,
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:59:57
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg.
The stop at the end of the link screws it up--not that it really matters, since you can just delete the stop. Just letting you know.
quote:
I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style.
This is interesting for a single reason: if Ed says they have the same goal, and can even learn to trust each other at times, then it follows Vhaeraun no longer is a warmongering supremacist pushing the drow to become the superior race and everyone else to be enslaved to them--which used to be his end-game goal. It means Vhaeraun has, well, dramatically changed.
Previously, Vhaeraun's stance on slavery alone would have been enough to make Eilistraee and her followers go mad and fight, for example. A lot of the battles that saw a faction pitted against the other in Skullport were about freeing slaves.
If this no longer is the case, then Vhaeraun has seriously reconsidered his goal. Or Eilistraee hers, but from how Ed parodies them, it doesn't really look like that. Or well, it might just be that Vhaeraun is merely using the Eilistraeans for support, acting like he's changed, when in truth he hasn't.
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:50:19
Fair point, but he has also made it sound as if they are allied. Maybe it is just a truce, but I was under the impression there was an alliance, too (I don't know how much Vhaeraun has changed--such as wanting drow to be supreme). |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:40:19
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg. I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style.
The same goals concerning Mother and Surface makes a truce, as to style of how to get there does not make an alliance. They do not agree on how to deal with surface dwellers for example.
She would provide aid to most other races, he would rob from most other races. Hard to be on the same page when from time to time defeating others actions. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:29:09
Here is the interview https://youtu.be/cLvAnSkyZXg I believe it is around the 10:49 mark that he starts talking about them. Being Ed, he presents it in a comcial manner lol, but they essentially have the same goals, they just clash on style. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:13:52
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.
No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.
Interesting. His post here on Candlekeep talks about a truce stemmed from a better reciprocal understanding, not an alliance. Even more so because he said that their followers can still skirmish on occasion. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:11:11
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Irennan,
It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.
Best regards,
His core concept is more about being a drow supremacist that wants the drow to rule Faerun and other races to submit to them. That's the main source of incompatibility with Eilistraee, who strives not only to build a home of the drow on the surface, but is big on Cosmopolitanism and freedom fo expression.
Their main contrast is: get the drow a place in the world by conquering (Vhaeraun) vs get the drow a plance in the world through building and achieving reciprocal understanding with other people.
There are also many more differences; for example, in their approach towards the drow. Vhaeraun still appeals to their thirst of power, and promises them what Lolth does, but that her method makes impossible to achieve. Eilistraee appeals to their need to rediscover the beauty and joy of life they were robbed of, as well as working as a motherly fighure who empowers them to find their own path and fulfilment.
These are two big reasons why their stances are ultimately incompatible. His conflict with Eilistraee has historically never been about matriarchy or stuff regarding her female clergy (until Smedman/Athans *intentionally*--due to WotC's stance towards Eilitraee in relation to their idea of what the drow and Drizzt should be--took a massive dump on the character and lore of 30 years in their now retconned drow novels). There's even less reason for the conflict to be about that currently, because Eilistraee has learned how to have male priests.
Ed explained this design. Long story short, Eilistraee had troubles having male priests, because Ed had envisioned her as tied to motherhood and female fertility, and males found difficult fully cleave to her. In short, Eilistraee's nature acted as an obstacle to them becoming priests. Eilistraee actively tried to overcome this and allow male priests; it started with a particular ritual and ended with the clergy being fully open on males. Said ritual allowed male priests to temporary become female, and gain insight to cleave more fully to the Dark Maiden, and achieve the same understanding female priestesses had of her nature. An interesting fact is that the ritual was needed for males to get to mid-high levels, but not to become priests. This means that males could already become priests, but the difficulty arising from Eilistraee's nature kept them at low levels without the ritual. In the current era, the changedance is no longer needed, and men can just become priests.
Likewise, Vhaeraun's conflict with Lolth isn't merely about the matriarchy, it's mostly about Lolth's ways being intentionally designed to hamper the drow and keep them down for her to toy with. Since he wants the drow to actually become the powerhouse they were before the Crown Wars, Lolth's mindset has to go. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 22:02:17
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Do you know which interview? I would like to watch that for that reason as well.
Best regards,
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 18:32:25
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.
No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 17:58:02
Great Reader Irennan,
It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.
Best regards,
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 14:44:03
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
So this alliance did end up forming? huh.. Do you think they work against any ome target together with their teamwork? Ghaunadaur or Llolth, first I wonder..
Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is. The current situations allows for Zinzerena and Malyk to join them too, but WotC would never even bother with dealing with any non-Lolth drow deity.
Ghaunadaur really isn't their priority. He has a beef with Eilistraee only because she prevented one of his avatars from attacking Waterdeep a long time ago. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 07:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yup, MToF totally botched drow and elf lore, taking away most of the established canon and throwing in random stuff. Gods being "children" of other gods is sometimes literal (like the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), and sometimes relationship lines are much more blurred (such as being the child and lover of a god). I personally don't know why they chose to even write MToF (yes, you can use the unreliable narrator argument, but even an unreliable narrator, especially one like Mordy who doubtless has access to the knowledge, shouldn't totally change almost every single piece of lore for no reason).
It seemed like they were trying to give the drow and elves of all the settings (while still using FR as the "base") the same origin story, which gets rid of unique history.
As for the Masked Lady, I would have preferred her to not having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun not be around at all in 4e, but I'm glad they are allied now in 5e (now if we would get some actual material, that would be great).
So this alliance did end up forming? huh.. Do you think they work against any ome target together with their teamwork? Ghaunadaur or Llolth, first I wonder.. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 06:46:01
Great Reader CorellonsDevout,
Wow. If that is true, that is just appalling. My cynical side says it likely is true, as they are likely looking to reduce the expense of having to maintain a workforce of authors, etc., that have an extremely tacit knowledge base, and at a certain point could likely charge quite a bit for it. In addition to that, they can lower the barrier to enter for people new to the Realms by resetting a huge amount of that lore to a simple version.
Ehhh....
Best regards,
|
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 03:14:26
Yup, MToF totally botched drow and elf lore, taking away most of the established canon and throwing in random stuff. Gods being "children" of other gods is sometimes literal (like the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), and sometimes relationship lines are much more blurred (such as being the child and lover of a god). I personally don't know why they chose to even write MToF (yes, you can use the unreliable narrator argument, but even an unreliable narrator, especially one like Mordy who doubtless has access to the knowledge, shouldn't totally change almost every single piece of lore for no reason).
It seemed like they were trying to give the drow and elves of all the settings (while still using FR as the "base") the same origin story, which gets rid of unique history.
As for the Masked Lady, I would have preferred her to not having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun not be around at all in 4e, but I'm glad they are allied now in 5e (now if we would get some actual material, that would be great). |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 01:32:50
Great Reader Irennan,
Wow, I had no idea, as I haven't purchased that book. Do you have any insight beyond intoxication as to why such a horrendous decision was made to just wreck canon like that?
Best regards,
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 05 Apr 2020 : 17:03:20
In that case, I like the idea, because there would be no merges to take away any character. Ofc, I'm not the one that needs to approve or like any idea, so don't get me wrong in that regard. I made my previous comment because I recalled Gary's version presenting Zinzerena/ML as something that was neither Eilistraee nor Vhaeraun, but that took their place. In that version, she could also appear to Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's followers as either deity, and answered to their prayers while the siblings were nowhere to be seen.
I also like Zinzerena as part of an anti-Lolth alliance alongside Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Malyk should be part of it too IMHO, despite him being CE.
As for the archetypal drow rebel, in the GH sources Zinzerena was indeed painted as the archetypal drow rogue deity, who constantly took strikes at Lolth before vanishing in the shadows. That said, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are also drow rebels, so are Malyk&followers (I mean, he has chaos and rebellion in his portfolio). There's a wide choice in that regard. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 05 Apr 2020 : 16:53:43
Yes, I'm aware MToF is quite disrespectful to past continuity.
I just thought about using the story of Zinzerena being Lolth's child as a story, as part of of the idea of using Zinzerena as the Masked Lady.
Gods (including ascended gods) being claimed as children of more powerful ones, is also something that happened in the Realms - examples are Uthgar and Tempus, Mielikki and Sylvanus (and among elves, she is also seen as the daughter of Hanali Celanil and Sylvanus.) Krash also had Bright Nydra as originally an ascended (Netherese Mortal), who latter was claimed as the daughter of Selune.
With that, I also didn't mean in my conception that Zinzerena is just using the Masked Lady identity to subvert Eilistraee and Vhaeraun' worship, and being now the true force behind them - rather than the asked Lady set-up resurrected Zinzerena, who now exist alongside Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I also proposed it, as Zinzerena herself, like the keftiu liked about the Masked Lady is the in many ways the "archetypical drow rebel".
I'll understand it if you still don't like it though.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 05 Apr 2020 : 14:54:04
MToF does entirely away with the concept of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being children of Corellon and Lolth. Everyone is Corellon's child, apparently, even Lolth. Honestly, MToF reads like Mord being drunk and spouting BS, like Vhaeraun being Lolth's lackey (LOL), or the elves being denied Arvandor, or the drow souls going "to mysterious places". FR never had any myth with Zinzerena painted as Lolth's child either.
Ofc, then again, in a personal game everything you like goes, no matter how contradictory with the lore. I mean, the closest to canon we have is Ed's explanation in which Eilistraee temporarily takes Vhaeraun's portfolio while trapping his consciousness in the Weave, but even that was erased by WotC as they opted to delete the whole series of events entirely (and not only that; for example, if you read DotMM, the Promenade apparently never existed, nor the temples that preceded it. It has always been a temple to Dumathoin, which never appeared in any source). So, I guess that if you want to use those events, you're already changing the lore, and therefore anything is as valid as anything else in that regard.
Personally, I see a returned Zinzerena as a good ally for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun; even Malyk is, as god of chaos and rebellion, going perfectly with Eilistraee's portfolio of freedom, but that is 5e era. OTOH, I'm not fond of the fan lore with Zinzerena as the Masked Lady, because that reduces Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to mere manifestations of Zinzerena, a ruse to hook their followers, which is exactly the same as getting rid of them. Not to mention that her personality loses what either sibling stands for. I'm also really NOT a fan of merges, and I don't see their point either from a narrative or worldbuilding perspective. Everything you can do with the faiths with a merge you can achieve with a situation that forces interaction and possibly cooperation between the two faiths, but you still retain their identity and that of their deities. Especially since deities are characters, and if you want character development for them too, having it happen overnight through some magic mash-up is, well, *bad* and lazy narrative. Plus, all I can think when I read about deities merging is those Dragon Ball episodes in which characters perform that weird pose and get fused together. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 05 Apr 2020 : 13:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Appreciate the thorough work, Irennan! You wouldn't happen to have a link to that map, would you?
I have to say, I'm sort of in love with a Warlock of the Masked Lady being the archetypical drow rebel in 4e...
With the Masked Lady, and being an archetypal rebel, Gary Dallison in the his article I linked, connected the Masked Lady also to Zinzerena, and which could be used to keep use the Masked Lady alongside Eilistrae and Vhaeraun:
quote:
The Masked Lady is a newcomer to the drow pantheon and something of an enigma to the drow. The
Masked Lady is actually androgynous in appearance and both Eilistraee’s and Vhaeraun’s clergy would
recognise the Masked Lady as their god, which would no doubt cause chaos and confusion if ever the
two groups would talk to one another. Thankfully cooperation and or communication between the two
clergies is a rarity so both groups remain ignorant of recent events.
The worshippers of Zinzerena are the primary followers of the Masked Lady, they recognise this
masked goddess as their own reborn in a new form and they follow her unquestioningly.
History
The history of the Masked Lady is a confusing mess intertwined with the history of Eilistraee, Lolth,
Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena.
Lolth had long been the patron goddess of the Drow, and even when they were the Ilythiir tribe of
elves she had taken steps to twist them towards evil by slowly breeding the blood of Wendonai the
Balor and other fiends into their bloodline. The Ilythiir were deemed irredeemable by the elves and cast
down into the Underdark for their crimes where they became the Drow.
Yet always in the shadows Eilistraee worked to free them from Lolth’s influence and show them the
way of good as well as evil. Her brother Vhaeraun likewise sought to free them from Lolth’s tyranny,
but only so he could replace her.
For millennia Lolth stood strong as the undisputed power of the Drow pantheon. During the Time of
Troubles Lolth found and destroyed Zinzerena; goddess of assassins and rebellion, taking her power
for her own and assuming Zinzerena’s guise so that she may answer the prayers of her clergy and gain
power from Drow that follow Lolth’s rule, and those that rally against her.
Then in 1372 DR, Lolth fell silent. She no longer answered the prayers of her faithful, and the entire
society of most Drow settlements were thrown into chaos.
During this silence, Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and the other gods of the Drow Pantheon battled against each
other for the fate of the Drow. Vhaeraun began to answer the prayers of Zinzerena’s worshippers who
were also affected by Lolth’s silence (for Lolth had pretended to be Zinzerena since the Time of
Troubles when she killed the drow Demi Power of assassins), using Zinzerena as an alias in the same
way that Lolth had done.
Given the new influx of power and worshippers, Vhaeraun decided to once and for all destroy his
hated sister so that he might take her power and then challenge his mother for rule of the Drow race,
wherever she may be.
The contest between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun went unwitnessed by the rest of Faerûn, and no-one knows who emerged victorious. What is certain is that a new power appeared in the Drow Pantheon
shortly after the conflict, calling itself the Masked Lady and claiming to be Zinzerena reborn.
This androgynous goddess referred to as a “she” because of her title, embraced Zinzerena’s followers
and formed her church around the individually powerful assassins that Lolthite priestesses had used
against one another for years in their power struggles.
While it appears that the Masked Lady’s worshippers are few, her power is far greater because she
answers the prayers of and derives power from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun’s clergy, both of whom think
their deity is the source of their power. With the worshippers of three churches behind her, and power
over drow males, surface drow, thievery, assassination, and acts of rebellion in drow society, the
Masked Lady is a strong goddess and she and her faithful are resisting Lolth’s evil.
The Masked Lady’s personality is very chaotic and prone to whimsy. She can demonstrate acts of
infinite kindness, as well as depraved cruelty to both her worshippers and her enemies. Her ever
changing personality is mirrored by her clergy who at times act as peacemakers between the drow, and
then again are known to slaughter entire bands of Lolthites that they encounter.
Her goals both mirror and yet remain distinct from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. She seeks to deliver the
Drow from Lolth’s evil and tyranny, so that she may become Lolth’s replacement, not as a cruel tyrant,
but as a nurturing mother. Yet she does not seek to redeem the drow from their evil natures, instead
the Masked Lady wishes simply that the Drow be free to live how and where they choose. To further
these aims she will fight Lolth, and anyone else that seeks to oppress and attack the Drow, that includes
those races on the surface of Toril if they choose to block the Drow’s return to those lands.
More in the fanzine:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx2yr4B9kIXPWVRsc1pkdDBMR28/view
This also could tie to a conon in-universe myth, (I think fist presented in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes) that had Zinzerena as a child of Lolth that spirited away, and hidden by illusions from her. This could be result of the Masked Lady, and the faiths conflation of Zinzerena with Eilistrae and Vhaeraun.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 04 Apr 2020 : 21:41:01
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oc1aZCzEsaGVY56cFhilVr97SSv0p7R0/view?usp=sharing
I suspect the book was supposed to also have some kind of map to locate the position of this grotto within the Feydark, but they didn't release that.
Barring modifications to "canon", a warlock of the ML would really be a warlock with a pact with both archfey!Eilistraee and archfey!Vhaeraun, which would be a really cool concept to explore. Ofc, you can simply have have Masked Lady Eilistraee as archfey, but (personally) I suggest to keep both twins, because their interaction, and their interaction with Lolth, has much more potential for storytelling than just having Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio, or the two mashed together. If you're looking for a trans sort of patron for the warlock, there's nothing preventing Eilistraee or Vhaeraun to do like Corellon, or to learn from their new relationship, and therefore include elements from each other's (former, given that they're no longer deities) portfolio into their "concept", while still retaining what they stand for. Heck, WotC themselves go out ot their way to not give a specific gender to nearly any deity. |
| keftiu |
Posted - 04 Apr 2020 : 21:18:35
Appreciate the thorough work, Irennan! You wouldn't happen to have a link to that map, would you?
I have to say, I'm sort of in love with a Warlock of the Masked Lady being the archetypical drow rebel in 4e... |
|
|
