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Chaos and despair spread among the followers of the Masked Lord, but some thought that their god was still alive, and that the twins had a plan and agreed to merge and work together against their mother for a time. Others were convinced that Vhaeraun had succeeded and was disguised as Eilistraee. Either way, it was certain that after the event, Eilistraee was changed: she held both her brother's and her own portfolios, she gained the title of "Masked Lady", and caused her followers and Vhaeraun's to cooperate, albeit uneasily.(GHotR, pp.158-9, and Sacrifice of the Widow)

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The Grand History of the Realms explicitly says that Vhaeraun's assassination attempt failed and Eilistraee killed him. However, in one of his answers, Ed Greenwood suggests that Eilistraee actually spared her brother's life. The Dark Maiden defeated Vhaeraun with the indirect help of her ally Mystra, as the Weave frustrated the Masked Lord's magic while enhancing Eilistraee's. The goddess temporarily took her brother's portfolio, and trapped his sentience in the Weave, where it was enfolded in a dream by Mystra. The Lady of Mysteries did that to ensure that the two drow siblings would survive the cataclysm that she knew was coming—the Spellplague—in which she would be "killed" to renew the Weave, and magic would go wild.(https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Eilistraee#cite_note-59)

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Originally posted by keftiu

Did anything ever come of the hints that Eilestree and Vhaeraun had merged?

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They never merged. Eilistraee borrowed Vhaeraun's portfolio (which includes drow males, thievery, and evil activities--stuff like assassinations, sabotages, "terrorism", slavery, and other criminal things) for 4 years.

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After their re-emergence (they survived thanks to some shenaningans with Mystra, but were powerless for a century or so), both siblings gained back their old portfolios (well, Eilistraee also got freedom in addition to her old portfolios).

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Honestly, though, Eilistraee as the Masked Lady would be a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).

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...especially because that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.

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Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals like some seem to believe; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.

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The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.

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Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

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Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, because she lost the focus on what the drow were denied, and became much more focused on stuff like assassination, intrigue, subterfuge--i.e. more of the same thing that gets forced on Lolthite drow every instant of their life. The Masked Lady comes off as just about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although Smedman's/Athans' never saw anything more than that in her). It also isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains.

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The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, while Ed did indeed say that Eilistraee spared her borther and only pretended with Lolth to have killed him, the chance to see an actual cooperation on screen was squandered in favor of magicking up changes.

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Originally posted by Irennan

They never merged. Eilistraee borrowed Vhaeraun's portfolio (which includes drow males, thievery, and evil activities--stuff like assassinations, sabotages, "terrorism", slavery, and other criminal things) for 4 years. After their re-emergence (they survived thanks to some shenaningans with Mystra, but were powerless for a century or so), both siblings gained back their old portfolios (well, Eilistraee also got freedom in addition to her old portfolios).

Honestly, though, Eilistraee as the Masked Lady would be a huge waste (and also a lost possibility IMHO).

Some might say that it was a kind of growth, that Eilistraee needed to abandon idealism and such (not that there was much of that in Smedman's version, which warped the character into a lite version of Lolth, and that has been--righfully--retconned,for it was an ugly retcon itself). I've read some people saying that the only way for her to start to get "things done" was the "merge" with Vhaeraun. However it's definitely not the case, especially because that kind of (non-)growth defeats one of the most compelling aspects of her character and story.

Eilistraee's not some starry-eyed girl who follows vague or frivolous ideals like some seem to believe; she knows far too well how hard her path is, and has seen and felt the weight of pain first-hand. However, while this goddess is more than aware that the world is far from bright and happy, she also firmly believes that the possibility for joy exists even at the height of suffering, and she wants all--especially the drow--to see and find it.

Eilistraee chose to share the fate of her people and be one of them. She sacrificed luxury, comfort, and safety, just so that she could be by their side when they would need her the most. She made that choice knowing what was awaiting her (quite literally; she had foreseen it), that she would bleed for her decision during the centuries and fight alone against forces far grater than her, but she still did it. And despite acknowledging the kind of reality that she was facing, despite all the struggles and losses, not only she has never stopped standing for her people, but she never let her light fade. She never became jaded or ruthless "because that's how you get things done". She kept on loving and dreaming and teaching the drow to do the same; turned her "scars" into lights for her people.

The Dark Maiden embodies the hope that the drow have to find a better existence, to rise above their pain and demons and smile to life. All that because she's one of them: she shared that battle--she "knows" how things actually are--yet she still has the strength to find the beauty in what was broken, where no one else would even bother, and does all she can to heal it and make it flourish. She teaches the drow to do the same, proves to them that they can do it too--because she, a drow like them, does it.

Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio? She lost all that, because she lost the focus on what the drow were denied, and became much more focused on stuff like assassination, intrigue, subterfuge--i.e. more of the same thing that gets forced on Lolthite drow every instant of their life. The Masked Lady comes off as just about killing Lolth, which is incredibly shallow and untrue to her character (although Smedman's/Athans' never saw anything more than that in her). It also isn't true to Ed's version of her--and say all you want about Ed's writing, he can create compelling worlds and characters, and Eilistraee's one of the most compelling characters I've come across, while Vhaeraun is one of the most compelling villains.

The missed opportunity with the Masked Lady thing is for more development of her character and Vhaeraun's. It would have been awesome (to me) to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun trying to get past their differences and working together against their mother, learning from each other (and their followers alongside them), rather than Eilistraee simply taking Vhaeraun's power and adding it to hers, and that having consequences on her. However, while Ed did indeed say that Eilistraee spared her borther and only pretended with Lolth to have killed him, the chance to see an actual cooperation on screen was squandered in favor of magicking up changes.

I mean, such kind of development is possible once again in the present era, as both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are currently very active, but WotC has stopped the novel line except for Drizzt, so it isn't likely.

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Well, wouldn't that just make her more compelling though? I think it would. Consider her ethical outlooks. Her idealism was lofty, and she recognized that, so she had to do a little "toughening" up to get the job done, is the outlook I take. It's like the idea of pacifism when the orcs are at your door raping, pillaging and murdering. You can either sit there and take it like a good Eldathan priest, or you can get your bow staff out and whoop some Orc up, because they are not going to stop, now matter how much you reason. That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

[...]Killing is ugly. War is nasty. You don't go in and come out clean, or with the same mindset you did when you went. Things change dramatically. I think that is the very quintessential definition and outcome of wisdom: you realize it wasn't like you thought, because you experienced it and now you know better. It doesn't mean the ideals have to be destroyed though. You just have to give a little to get some back on the back end though.[...]

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That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

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[...]However, it doesn't drop your opponent on the battlefield. It doesn't conjure up the lust for destruction of your enemy required to lay them low and destroy their reasons for existence, so that you yourself can exist. She needs to have a bit more of that in her, than she has had in the past is what I am arguing for[...]

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Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

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Getting more ruthless doesn't make a character more compelling, especially not when you magick-up a change (that's just bad writing and characterization, honestly).

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• Hannibal (Mads Mikkelson)
• Lady Hideko from the show The Handmaiden
• Darth Vader
• Mistinarperadnacles Hai Draco

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In the end, empathy, nurture, creation of beauty, are qualities that are often overlooked or dismissed in characters, and rarely if never considered strengths.

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There's no need to have every character become some morally grey "the ends justifies the means" kind of character in order to have a good narrative.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, there was and there has always been an alliance with Mystra (at least on Eilistraee's side). Mystra commands her followers to promote the growth of magic everywhere, which includes encouraging the development of spellcraft among races with high affinity to magic, like the drow, and nurturing them. It's one more reason for the Lady of Mysteries to choose the Dark Maiden as a friend, and to oppose Lolth, because Lolth's ridiculous society only stifles growth and promotes censorship, strife and stagnation--the nemesis of any form of development. Vhaeraun didn't lend his portfolio willingly, he tried to kill Eilistraee, but Eilistraee defeated him with the indirect help of Mystra, and chose to spare him: he was encased in a dream within the Weave, and Eilistraee "borrowed" his portfolio for 4 years (by borrow I only mean that she took it temporarily, sorry for any misunderstandings). This was part of a plan that Mystra had devised to ensure the survival of Eilistraee, among her other divine friends, to the coming upheaval that she had foreseen (the Spellplague).

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Well, wouldn't that just make her more compelling though? I think it would. Consider her ethical outlooks. Her idealism was lofty, and she recognized that, so she had to do a little "toughening" up to get the job done, is the outlook I take. It's like the idea of pacifism when the orcs are at your door raping, pillaging and murdering. You can either sit there and take it like a good Eldathan priest, or you can get your bow staff out and whoop some Orc up, because they are not going to stop, now matter how much you reason. That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

[...]Killing is ugly. War is nasty. You don't go in and come out clean, or with the same mindset you did when you went. Things change dramatically. I think that is the very quintessential definition and outcome of wisdom: you realize it wasn't like you thought, because you experienced it and now you know better. It doesn't mean the ideals have to be destroyed though. You just have to give a little to get some back on the back end though.[...]

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Getting more ruthless doesn't make a character more compelling, especially not when you magick-up a change (that's just bad writing and characterization, honestly).

Eilistraee never had lofty ideals, nor she has ever been starry eyed to begin with. As I explain, she has always known what was waiting for her on the path she chose (literally, she had foreseen it), what was the reality of her situation--she was always personally involved and active, yet she never hesitated to throw herself in this challenge. She's been wounded, she lost and bled, yet she never abandoned her people and kept fighting for a better life for them.

This means that she has already felt the war on her skin, but her focus on beauty and nurture keeps existing despite all that. That's not because she fights just for the sake of her ideals (this is not some nebulous action), but because--even after the wars--Eilistraee knows that they're what can make her people flourish and discover happiness (and I mean, it already happened once, in Miyeritar)--the very people to whom she's dedeciated her everything. It's what the drow need after being endlessly bombarded with the notion that violence is the only way, and after being abused since their childhood, by those who should love them the mot. That's not lofty at all, but the choice of a goddess who has been in the metaphorical fray, not of someone who preaches stuff while they let others sort it out.

Also, before we talk past each other, Eilistraee isn't Eldath, nor she has ever been. She doeesn't command you to not fight back if someone uses violence--quite the contrary--she just teaches to show compassion, and to spare lives.

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That seems to be the kind of idea behind what motivated Eilistraee to go down the road she did.[...]

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Just to clairfy, this was not something that Eilistraee willingly chose. It only happened because she absorbed, temporarily, Vhaeraun's power, and was magically changed. In the books it's very explicitly expressed: the priesteses were worried that, since Eilistraee had defeated Vhaeraun, she was going to become more like him. Which is bad characterization. Also, after her re-emergence, since she no longer has Vhaeraun's power, Eilistraee returned to be her own self.

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[...]However, it doesn't drop your opponent on the battlefield. It doesn't conjure up the lust for destruction of your enemy required to lay them low and destroy their reasons for existence, so that you yourself can exist. She needs to have a bit more of that in her, than she has had in the past is what I am arguing for[...]

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Her goal isn't to bring a war to the drow, but to open their minds, to teach them life anew. She empowers them to find their own path and see with their own eyes what life can be, and embrace it. Her goal certainly isn't to show the drow the same ugly crap that they've seen for their whole lives. She also doesn't want to exterminate the Lolthites or anything--as Ed said, she's a nurturing mother to ALL drow. She sees the poitential for beauty in Lolthites, she doesn't want her people to be motivated to extinguih their lives, but to be able to defend themselves while showing compassion and offering a new opportunity to people who are ultimately victims of abuse. As I mention:

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Her focus on beauty, arts, spreading joy, on compassion is essential for (and motivated by) that reason, and not merely some kind of random optimism or frivolity. Eilistraee knows that the drow have been broken by abuse, and still sees them for the part of them that was silenced by cruelty and hatred. The only way that she has to speak to that part, let it awaken, is exactly through the sheer joy of existence and the vibrant love of a mother[/u] that she can still find and give despite knowing the reality of the situation. The same things that the drow were denied, but that many of them secretly long for.

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If she gives up on that, and starts dragging the drow in endless wars, she gives up on her very goal to bring that new life to the them. She becomes yet another warring drow deity: the same as the rest, offering the drow more of the same. To the drow, it would blur the line between her and the other deities who use them as pawns in a conflict for dominance. They won't be encouraged to change, because they won't see any meaningful difference.

OTOH, the change she wants has to come from the drow understanding and making a choice, which is an entirely different kind of "war" (that's also why she empowers them to find their own way). You say that it won't happen without a war, but this is different: the drow only need to lose faith in Lolth, to have the seed of doubt planted in them, even if just internally, to put Lolth with her back against the wall--because deities without faith lose their power. It's enough for a significant number of drow to lose faith (even while they keep lispervicing Lolth) for a significant change to happen (actually, given how miserable the drow are, many of them should have already lost faith in Lolth internally).

Eilistraee's MO can achieve that. She works to light their spark, to defeat their resignation and their quiet misery, while also providing them a place they can belong to, a community, and the tools to start anew. The combination of those two things is a powerful force to start a change. From one side, the beauty, the warmth, the conviviality can "lure" the drow and let them see what they could have if they just chose to stop the pointless strife. From the other side, it will also caus disillusion with the current model (Lolth's society) that promised the world, but only brought them misery, stagnation and confinement in shiny cages. It makes them wonder "why does our world have to be like this? If they're so weak and we so strong, why can't we have all that happiness?"

And you know what? Even in canon, it can work. Ed has talked about how many drow long for what Eilistraee offers them, if secretly or even unconsciously, and WotC themsleves tell that the Lolthites do all in their power to prevent the drow from coming to know about Eilistraee, and from feeling her call (doing raids under the full moon is taboo, for example), because they fear the impact that Eilitraee could have on the Lolthite society. In the 2e TDotU, you'll also read "a drow given the taste of freedom will never look back" (which is why Lolthite censorship is so obsessive). With that premise, it's honestly stupid that many drow haven't lost faith in Lolth yet. In over 12k years of misery, with that premise, leaks are bound to happen, movement and ideas are bound to be spread, dissatisfaction and disenchantment will be the norm--especially with another deity going out of her way to reach for the drow--things are bound to change. If anything, in this context, it's Lolth the one who doesn't make sense and has "ideals" (her dogma may read as if it was written by an edgy 12yo, but it's still ideals) detached from reality (and I mean, they are--they're stupidly self-destructive; her infighting-plagued society should have fallen apart millennia ago in an environment surrounded by extremely powerful and dangerous beings) and to be blatantly protected by plot armor.

Btw, revolutions that didn't recur to bloodshed as their main tool also happened IRL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution
An Eilistraee-led revoltuion would look far more like that than a bloody conlfict. And the drow are much more motivated to do something like that than any human culture ever, because drow commoners live in utter misery, both emotional, social (even loving your kid is taboo among them; it's ridiculous), and economical. And they've lived like that for 120000 years.

Re: preference. Some preferred the Masked Lady; AFAIK most people preferred Eilistraee as Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as Vhaeraun. It's not for nothing that they were both given back their own identities.

Re: Eilistraee&Vhaeraun trying to overcome differences together, that would be IC for Vhaeraun. He's always been willing to cooperate, when it comes down to freeing the drow from Lolth. That's in his lore since Demihuman Deities (2e). That's how you make changes in a narrative, not by saying "magic happens, and just like that a character makes a 180 literally overnight" (which is literally what this Masked Lady thing did).

In the end, empathy, nurture, creation of beauty, are qualities that are often overlooked or dismissed in characters, and rarely if never considered strengths. Eilistraee is one of the few characters that takes them at heart (as Ed Greenwood created her like that), and builds her MO around that. That's unique and valuable. There's no need to have every character become some morally grey "the ends justifies the means" kind of character in order to have a good narrative.

Even from the perspective of the Worldbuilding/setting, it was also pointless to take the one drow goddess and culture that stands for creation, acceptance, compassion, and have them become ruthless. It adds nothing; it removes uniqueness and, as I said multiple times, it only ends up adding more of the same to the setting (every drow faction is like that, we don't need *yet another one* to be like that).

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Ruthlessness is very compelling, and there are rare examples in the Realms of that, I concur with that if that is your point. However, your point about it not being compelling takes on a rather substantive body of great writers and authors, without providing a reason as to why it isn't compelling. Though, you are an exceptionally cogent writer, so my assumption is that it must be pertaining to past writings of the Realms rather than an outright dismissal of ruthlessness as a trait in being uncompelling as a blanket statement.

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Strong is usually seen as a powerful, in some ways, point to argue from and as people seek strength for survival. It's a very basic way of looking at things, but it is nonetheless a reality. It's why there can be absolute d*ck leaders in place that continue on as a leader. That being said, softer positions that play long games are compelling for sure. You are correct that they are rarely ever seen as strengths. In fact, there are many deities such as Eldath, Hanali Celanil, and others that are really overlooked a lot of time in lieu of Bane, Cyric, Torm, Tyr, Mystra, etc. I think because those gods are written monolithically and it is easier to understand such block, simple-minded emotional arguments from those characters. It's essentially a "Hulk Smash" kind of approach when there should be more depth of reasoning and character to these individuals.

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I know we're not suppose to do this but rarely, but I think it is the right time to use super boldness here: that is the best point of the entire rebuttal you provided. That is not to say the rest was bad, as I've made clear it was a well reasoned, and concise argument you presented, and it is appreciated.

Rather, the ends justifies the means stuff is so low brow, basic, "me-me-me" for a character to have. It just blows by all of the heartache, contention, guilt, and other emotions that a person goes through when they make tough decisions. It is a teleological perspective through and through, specifically a Utilitarian one at that. I think it has its time and place for certain character writing, but generally speaking it is a crap tool to use with characters. I am very glad to see that acknowledgement. It is sad to see how much Utilitarianism is used to justify crap.

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I see you are from Italy, and you clearly know some great European history, so I leave with my own example of why teleology/Utilitarianism is an awful perspective to get to attached to in character writig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

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You're right, I misworded.

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I agree. And empathy and nurture are strength in a different way too: without them, devlopment of any kind hardly happens. They're needed for a society to work.

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Hard or controversial choices should happen in narrative, but yeah, if a character opted for a given solution purely on an Utilitarian basis, it would be quite shallow.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Ruthlessness is very compelling, and there are rare examples in the Realms of that, I concur with that if that is your point. However, your point about it not being compelling takes on a rather substantive body of great writers and authors, without providing a reason as to why it isn't compelling. Though, you are an exceptionally cogent writer, so my assumption is that it must be pertaining to past writings of the Realms rather than an outright dismissal of ruthlessness as a trait in being uncompelling as a blanket statement.

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You're right, I misworded. What I meant to say is that ruthlessness doesn't *always* make a character compelling, or doesn't necessarily make an already compelling character *more* compelling (especially when said character is compelling for reasons that have nothing to do with ruthlessness). It's a certainly interesting and valid theme to explore, but--like all other traits and values--you can't just slap ruthlessness on a character and say that it's become more compelling. Some people seem to advance that idea.

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Strong is usually seen as a powerful, in some ways, point to argue from and as people seek strength for survival. It's a very basic way of looking at things, but it is nonetheless a reality. It's why there can be absolute d*ck leaders in place that continue on as a leader. That being said, softer positions that play long games are compelling for sure. You are correct that they are rarely ever seen as strengths. In fact, there are many deities such as Eldath, Hanali Celanil, and others that are really overlooked a lot of time in lieu of Bane, Cyric, Torm, Tyr, Mystra, etc. I think because those gods are written monolithically and it is easier to understand such block, simple-minded emotional arguments from those characters. It's essentially a "Hulk Smash" kind of approach when there should be more depth of reasoning and character to these individuals.

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I agree. And empathy and nurture are strength in a different way too: without them, devlopment of any kind hardly happens. They're needed for a society to work.

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I know we're not suppose to do this but rarely, but I think it is the right time to use super boldness here: that is the best point of the entire rebuttal you provided. That is not to say the rest was bad, as I've made clear it was a well reasoned, and concise argument you presented, and it is appreciated.

Rather, the ends justifies the means stuff is so low brow, basic, "me-me-me" for a character to have. It just blows by all of the heartache, contention, guilt, and other emotions that a person goes through when they make tough decisions. It is a teleological perspective through and through, specifically a Utilitarian one at that. I think it has its time and place for certain character writing, but generally speaking it is a crap tool to use with characters. I am very glad to see that acknowledgement. It is sad to see how much Utilitarianism is used to justify crap.

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Hard or controversial choices should happen in narrative, but yeah, if a character opted for a given solution purely on an Utilitarian basis, it would be quite shallow.

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I see you are from Italy, and you clearly know some great European history, so I leave with my own example of why teleology/Utilitarianism is an awful perspective to get to attached to in character writig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak

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Thanks for the link, and holy crap: that was some nasty stuff.

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Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.

So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.

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Originally posted by keftiu

Do you have a link to where the talk about them as an archfey and that material being cut was?

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Originally posted by keftiu

Appreciate the thorough work, Irennan! You wouldn't happen to have a link to that map, would you?

I have to say, I'm sort of in love with a Warlock of the Masked Lady being the archetypical drow rebel in 4e...

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The Masked Lady is a newcomer to the drow pantheon and something of an enigma to the drow. The
Masked Lady is actually androgynous in appearance and both Eilistraee’s and Vhaeraun’s clergy would
recognise the Masked Lady as their god, which would no doubt cause chaos and confusion if ever the
two groups would talk to one another. Thankfully cooperation and or communication between the two
clergies is a rarity so both groups remain ignorant of recent events.
The worshippers of Zinzerena are the primary followers of the Masked Lady, they recognise this
masked goddess as their own reborn in a new form and they follow her unquestioningly.
History
The history of the Masked Lady is a confusing mess intertwined with the history of Eilistraee, Lolth,
Vhaeraun, and Zinzerena.
Lolth had long been the patron goddess of the Drow, and even when they were the Ilythiir tribe of
elves she had taken steps to twist them towards evil by slowly breeding the blood of Wendonai the
Balor and other fiends into their bloodline. The Ilythiir were deemed irredeemable by the elves and cast
down into the Underdark for their crimes where they became the Drow.
Yet always in the shadows Eilistraee worked to free them from Lolth’s influence and show them the
way of good as well as evil. Her brother Vhaeraun likewise sought to free them from Lolth’s tyranny,
but only so he could replace her.
For millennia Lolth stood strong as the undisputed power of the Drow pantheon. During the Time of
Troubles Lolth found and destroyed Zinzerena; goddess of assassins and rebellion, taking her power
for her own and assuming Zinzerena’s guise so that she may answer the prayers of her clergy and gain
power from Drow that follow Lolth’s rule, and those that rally against her.
Then in 1372 DR, Lolth fell silent. She no longer answered the prayers of her faithful, and the entire
society of most Drow settlements were thrown into chaos.
During this silence, Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and the other gods of the Drow Pantheon battled against each
other for the fate of the Drow. Vhaeraun began to answer the prayers of Zinzerena’s worshippers who
were also affected by Lolth’s silence (for Lolth had pretended to be Zinzerena since the Time of
Troubles when she killed the drow Demi Power of assassins), using Zinzerena as an alias in the same
way that Lolth had done.
Given the new influx of power and worshippers, Vhaeraun decided to once and for all destroy his
hated sister so that he might take her power and then challenge his mother for rule of the Drow race,
wherever she may be.
The contest between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun went unwitnessed by the rest of Faerûn, and no-one knows who emerged victorious. What is certain is that a new power appeared in the Drow Pantheon
shortly after the conflict, calling itself the Masked Lady and claiming to be Zinzerena reborn.
This androgynous goddess referred to as a “she” because of her title, embraced Zinzerena’s followers
and formed her church around the individually powerful assassins that Lolthite priestesses had used
against one another for years in their power struggles.
While it appears that the Masked Lady’s worshippers are few, her power is far greater because she
answers the prayers of and derives power from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun’s clergy, both of whom think
their deity is the source of their power. With the worshippers of three churches behind her, and power
over drow males, surface drow, thievery, assassination, and acts of rebellion in drow society, the
Masked Lady is a strong goddess and she and her faithful are resisting Lolth’s evil.
The Masked Lady’s personality is very chaotic and prone to whimsy. She can demonstrate acts of
infinite kindness, as well as depraved cruelty to both her worshippers and her enemies. Her ever
changing personality is mirrored by her clergy who at times act as peacemakers between the drow, and
then again are known to slaughter entire bands of Lolthites that they encounter.
Her goals both mirror and yet remain distinct from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. She seeks to deliver the
Drow from Lolth’s evil and tyranny, so that she may become Lolth’s replacement, not as a cruel tyrant,
but as a nurturing mother. Yet she does not seek to redeem the drow from their evil natures, instead
the Masked Lady wishes simply that the Drow be free to live how and where they choose. To further
these aims she will fight Lolth, and anyone else that seeks to oppress and attack the Drow, that includes
those races on the surface of Toril if they choose to block the Drow’s return to those lands.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Yup, MToF totally botched drow and elf lore, taking away most of the established canon and throwing in random stuff. Gods being "children" of other gods is sometimes literal (like the case of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun), and sometimes relationship lines are much more blurred (such as being the child and lover of a god). I personally don't know why they chose to even write MToF (yes, you can use the unreliable narrator argument, but even an unreliable narrator, especially one like Mordy who doubtless has access to the knowledge, shouldn't totally change almost every single piece of lore for no reason).

It seemed like they were trying to give the drow and elves of all the settings (while still using FR as the "base") the same origin story, which gets rid of unique history.

As for the Masked Lady, I would have preferred her to not having Eilistraee and Vhaeraun not be around at all in 4e, but I'm glad they are allied now in 5e (now if we would get some actual material, that would be great).

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Originally posted by PattPlays
So this alliance did end up forming? huh.. Do you think they work against any ome target together with their teamwork? Ghaunadaur or Llolth, first I wonder..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader Irennan,

It definitely seems like the issue with Vhaeraun makes a lot of sense in the no longer fighting, without an alliance. He is all about hating on anything he might see as pushing the matriarchy. His tendencies with rebellion, and of course trickery as a part of it, are enough to make me think it is just trickery.

Best regards,

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quote:

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:

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Originally posted by Irennan



Ed says Eilistraee and Vhaeraun no longer fight, but there isn't a true alliance. Of course, they could easily coopearate in stirring the drow and opening their eyes to the kind of fraud that Lolth is.

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No true alliance? Huh. I seem to remember him saying in an interview they were actually allied. I may have to go back and watch that interview again.

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