| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:12:12
This is mostly a opinion thread.
But does any one besides me think it's a bit cheesy and lame that Kel or any of the past Faerun human deities of dead/death has power over every humanoid, fey, dragon, etc, that dies on Faerun? I mean there are other deities of death in the other pantheons, but every humanoid, etc, that dies goes to Kel's realm (even back in 2e's FR) and he gets to decide if they are Faithless and False, or the souls that actually followed and venerated a pantheon have to wait there for thier deities or the dieties servents to come pick them up.
Why bother having deities of death/dead for the other pantheons then, since they really don't get any say about the souls of the races they created. Take Sehanine for example, she has no say on where an elven soul would go if it was Faithless or False, since that's Kel's duty. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 22:33:35
Quale: Thanks for the list! 
Gray: For canon purposes, I had read that the Yuir totems were worshipped by the native humans before the Yuir elves settled in the Yuir. It didn't occur to me (as a homo sapiens) that the deities with a human origin would be wild enough to freak out the gold and moon elves, but I forgot xenophobia of the elves.
For homebrew, I'm not discounting the idea the Yuir deities had a fey origin and fell dormant before the Yuir humans worshipped them. There's entirely too much fey about the Yuir and the totems as written to completely set the idea aside.
I should find a better scroll in which to ruminate, though, as I'm off-topic.
Kuje: Unless the race ascendant in each epoch ruled the Fugue in succession, I agree with your opening post. |
| Quale |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 19:37:14
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Thanks Quale! was a "final list" ever compiled on this thread? (canon or "almost canon" list? or a best-guess list drawn from good assumptions?)
best guesses are Focalor and Vanathor
the possible list is
Vanathor
Herne the Hunter
Sarula Iliene the Nixie Queen
Tilvenar
Leraje, the Green Herald
Khalreshaar
Focalor, Prince of Tears
but these are just speculations |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 17:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I was always under the impression, perhaps due to some old 2E references, that elves did not "die" of old age but rather, "went to Arvandor" when they felt it was the right time. Of course, this begs the question "what happens to the elves killed in combat or those unfortunate few who die in accidents?" I would hesitate to have Sehanine serve as a death god, but your timeline certainly seems plausible.
I haven't read the 2E Aglarond stuff but 3E sources seem to indicate there was a whole pantheon in the Yuirwood there (check out the UE info on Rhelkat's Foot) I always wonder where else we could find info on these? It seems someone (in a home campaign perhaps?) developed that whole pantheon for their use but it never made it or fell out of canon at some point...
1) It may be that the elves had some kind of mechanic that lets them bypass the Fugue under certain circumstances. Sehanine has the portfolio of both death and transcendence. Perhaps elves have 2 avenues open to them, death OR transcendence.
I would think that if elves physically "die" their souls must pass through the Fugue, at least according to the 3e set-up. But maybe elves have an alternate path they can take. By living to an appropriate age (avoiding death by misfortune, disease, combat, and foul play) perhaps those lucky elves can willfully "transcend" directly to Arvandor.
This might be a gift granted by Selune. Maybe she gave the elves that gift when she lost control of the Fugue, or maybe she didn't like the idea of the Fugue in the first place and so provided a work-around.
There is some lore to support this view. I don't have the references handy, would have to do some scrounging, but I think you could reconcile these 2e descriptions of elves passing on to Arvandor with 3e lore. After all, elves don't sleep, they reverie. No reason they couldn't also have an alternate mechanic for ending their lives.
2) As for the Yuir gods, there is some good info about them on page 93 of the Demihuman Deities sourcebook. The important thing to remember about the Yuir pantheon is that they were originally human gods: "ancient powers previously venerated by primitive humans who had preceeded even the elven settlement of the forest." Only later did the Sy-Tel'Quessir adopt and co-opt the Yuir gods. |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 22:40:48
After reading Lynn Abbey's The Simbul's Gift, it's evident that the Seldarine/Yuir merger wasn't necessarily amicable, more of a hostile takeover.
That said, I've ruminated on what the Yuir deities may have been that they would require such uncharacteristic behavior from the Seldarine, what danger their "wild"-ness posed to elves that would merit a Tel'Quessir coverup and blood-drawing arguments among elven sages (which were reminiscent of arguments of the 1990's in the States about our treatment of the native cultures).
Based upon the fey prevalent in both the novel and other canon for the Yuir and the nature of the portfolios of the known five Yuir, is it possible (forest, fickle love, archery, the moment/now) the Yuir are the original fey pantheon?
The known five might be the benign fey powers who "settled" with the Seldarine, while the scoured five menhirs whose identites remain unknown might reflect Unseelie aspects of the fey. It appears that even the five known powers remained restless as of 1368DR.
That's how I'm working my homebrew. I just don't know the missing five. 
The novel also stated that the Yuir elves did not pass to Arvandor but instead bound themselves to the forest, a practice that appalled the Evermeet sages and they feared may be happening to the Yuir half-elves without the half-elves' knowledge. The practice seems rather fey to me, almost like a reincarnation ideal.
All that to say there may not have been a fey ascendancy on the Fugue because the fey reincarnate (or somehow go back to nature?) instead of dealing with the Fugue. The Yuir may not have even required a death portfolio like other races.
Just some thoughts. But The Simbul's Gift is a fantastically lore-ridden novel. Superb. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 20:24:20
Thanks Quale! was a "final list" ever compiled on this thread? (canon or "almost canon" list? or a best-guess list drawn from good assumptions?) |
| Quale |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 09:56:24
check this thread for possible lost Yuir gods http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1058663 |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 09:07:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There were 10 gods in the pantheon, 5 unnamed. In addition to the Simbul [this was an ancient god of the Yuir pantheon worshipped by humans that once resided in the Yuir {the Simbul herself takes her name from this particular deity}] we know of Magnar the Bear, Relkath of the Infinite Branches [sounds from the name like he could be an aspect of Emmantiensien] merged with Rilifane Ralathil, Elekarashae, and Zandilar the Dancer who merged with Bast to become Sharess. There really isn't anything more specific about these particular deities though.
This begs the question: why?
Why don't we know more about these at this point, and why only vague references to "ancient gods" are given as part of the Aglarond realmslore...
It would be very enlightening to hear the opinion of Dear Lady Hooded on this matter, as she might have "Ed's Campaign" insights on this Yuir culture...   |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 07:47:29
There were 10 gods in the pantheon, 5 unnamed. In addition to the Simbul [this was an ancient god of the Yuir pantheon worshipped by humans that once resided in the Yuir {the Simbul herself takes her name from this particular deity}] we know of Magnar the Bear, Relkath of the Infinite Branches [sounds from the name like he could be an aspect of Emmantiensien] merged with Rilifane Ralathil, Elekarashae, and Zandilar the Dancer who merged with Bast to become Sharess. There really isn't anything more specific about these particular deities though.
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| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 07:26:14
I was always under the impression, perhaps due to some old 2E references, that elves did not "die" of old age but rather, "went to Arvandor" when they felt it was the right time. Of course, this begs the question "what happens to the elves killed in combat or those unfortunate few who die in accidents?" I would hesitate to have Sehanine serve as a death god, but your timeline certainly seems plausible.
I haven't read the 2E Aglarond stuff but 3E sources seem to indicate there was a whole pantheon in the Yuirwood there (check out the UE info on Rhelkat's Foot) I always wonder where else we could find info on these? It seems someone (in a home campaign perhaps?) developed that whole pantheon for their use but it never made it or fell out of canon at some point... |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 05:43:50
Well, the Dragons had ruled Faerūn for about 6,000 years from circa -30,000 DR to -24,000 DR. After that came the First Flowering when waves of immigrant races from other crystal spheres established themselves in Toril. Of all these peoples the elves were arguably the most dominant race during this time period.
Assuming that Null (the draconic deity of death) governed the Fugue Plane during the time of Dragons, then it follows that, as dragons slipped from power, so too might Null have relinquished or lost his stewardship of the Fugue. It seems likely that control of the Fugue would have been taken up by the most powerful pantheon that was around at the time. All signs point to the elves.
We know that Sehanine has the death portfolio for the elven pantheon. So it strikes me as plausible that she might have governed the Fugue during the time of the First Flowering for at least some period of time between -24,000 DR and the Crown Wars.
I don't know this for sure, it is only speculation. We don't know what the chain of rulership was from Null to Jergal. My guess is that Jergal took control of the Fugue as part of the Coramshan pantheon. Best guess is that he was a death god in the spellweaver pantheon worshiped in the Lake of Steam area or himself possibly an ascended spellweaver. I am guessing Jergal became a part of the Coramshan pantheon sometime around -6060 DR when Coramshan's human rulers took up the worship of evil gods. As ruler of the Fugue he would later become known to the Netherese and entered their pantheon as well. Jergal probably was known to most pantheons to some degree or another.
Between the reigns of Null and Jergal, there are about 18 centuries unaccounted for (give or take). It is possible that Sehanine looked after the Fugue in there somewhere. The dwarves might have had a turn too, I could see Dumathoin guarding the Fugue sometime after -12000 DR with the rise of the dwarven kingdom of Bhaerynden or perhaps later after -10800 with the First Great Age of Shanatar.
There's a lot of room in there for any number of deities to have taken charge of the Fugue. I could even imagine that Yurtrus, the Orc god of death may have had a turn at some point. There are probably some forgotten or unrevealed gods who could have also had a turn.
|
| Gabeth |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 21:19:55
I'm not sure I understand the comment about Sehanine Moonbow controlling the Fugue Plane. Hasn't it only
been relatively recent that a member of one pantheon has joined that of another one? I'm referring to
Sharess, though there are a few out there.
If the Fugue Plane is part of the native Faerunian pantheon (not necessarily for all of Toril),
then wouldn't a native Faerūnian deity be a safe bet.
But then again, we don't know the role of the native Faerūnian pantheon during the Days of Thunder and
suchlike. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 06:38:39
By the way, after the time of dragons, the elves arose as the dominant race during the First Flowering period. It is certainly possible that the elven god of the dead, Sehanine Moonbow, could have ruled the Fugue Plane for a time.
I don't know if she actually did, but it seems possible. Alternatively she might have installed a proxy or even raised a mortal elf to godhood to reign as Coronal of the Fugue.
If I remember, there was a little-used, alternative name for Arvandor, I think it is "Arvanaith" when it is referred to as the elven realm of the dead, as a destination for petitioners. Perhaps "Arvanaith" was originally the elven name of the Fugue Plane during the First Flowering period, but then later relocated with the abode of Sehanine when the elf gods lost their hold on the Fugue, and now the two names have become conflated.
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| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 06:20:12
I think it is a mistake to view the Wall as a punishment. It is a neutral fate. It may even be a mercy.
When souls are not collected from the Fugue, we do not know what would happen to them if they were not rounded up and stacked on the Wall. It is entirely possible their fate would be no better, even worse, if Kelemvor did not dispose of them so. They might certainly fall prey to a hungry Dendar, out for a midnight snack. They could get stolen by demon raiders and carted down to the Abyss. At least the Wall offers some level of protection.
It may also be that paralysis and calcification are a natural process that happens in the absence of a divine spark to animate the petitioner body. If left uncollected, the souls might still turn to statues like Lot's wife, remaining conscious but frozen for all eternity. In the Wall there is a moss that breaks down their bodies and eventually frees their soul to either merge with the plane or go on to some greater reward.
By placing the Faithless on the Wall, it keeps the Fugue clean, offers some degree of protection for the inert souls, also helps to defend the City itself from demon raiders, and aids those souls in continuing on to the next phase of their afterlife.
Remember that most of the Faithless knew this would happen to them and still refused to claim a god as their patron. Why would they willingly choose such a fate--or willfully reject other options? There may be other selling points to the Wall that atheist Faerunians are privy to that have not been revealed to us. The Faithless themselves may see it as a desirable fate. For instance, maybe it is a way to be reincarnated in the Realms. Or maybe some other reward awaits the souls who are disolved by the moss of the Wall, like dining eternally in the halls of Ao himself. Or a 2001 style Space Odyssey into the unknown mysteries of the multiverse.
Who knows what myths and legends are told by and to those who would choose to remain Faithless. But there must be some good salesmen out there because the Wall seems to have plenty of "stones" in it.
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| Quale |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 11:46:01
with fey god of death, rather then being pulled to the Outer planes, maybe fey souls (spirits) did reincarnate within (demi)plane of Faerie, I cannot see them as a part of faithful/faithless judgement system |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 14:23:40
Ah yes, more wonderful lore from Gray Richardson. Most welcome indeed! |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 08 Jul 2008 : 06:40:01
Jergal himself likely took the job from an earlier god who was just another in a long string of gods who have held the position through the ages going back to the War of Light and Darkness when Death first arose as an entity.
I imagine that during the Reign of Dragons (from -30,000 DR to -24,000 DR) that the dragon god of death, Null, may have been lord of the Fugue Plane. It only makes sense that during the time of dragon ascendancy a dragon god should rule the Fugue.
Prior to Null, I speculate that the Fugue might have had an Aarakocra steward. Perhaps Phraarkilloorm, mentioned in White Dwarf magazine #39, back when it was loosely affiliated with TSR.
And before the Aarakocra held sway, it is likely a Batrachi god held the office for a time. Although, the Batrachi tended towards monotheism, and it seems unlikely that Ramenos would have been granted control of the Fugue... but maybe a holdover from the Great School pantheon of their aquatic forebears, who managed to hold on to the Fugue long after Ramenos had killed off his rival Batrachi gods when he harrowed the Fated Depths. I can imagine a great octopus god (or even a kraken deity such as Panzuriel) that swam the river of knives that bisects the Fugue Plane, unseen, jetting through clouds of black, black ink, a metaphor for that darkness which takes us all, in our time.
And during the age of the Sarrukh... well this is a puzzle to me. Perhaps Dendar the Night Serpent (who also lives on this plane) may have been some fragment of the World Serpent that watched over the Fugue when the Sarrukh were at their crest. But I am not sure if that feels right. There may have been an ascended Sarrukh or Yuan-Ti whose name is lost to time that held the plane back then.
Or then again, it may have been a fey god. In fact there could easily have been a god of the Sylvan creator race, or a succession of fey gods, who guarded the Fugue during that era.
All this going back to the original god of Death, who was put into office by either Ao or a treaty of the gods signed at Cynosure following the conclusion of the War of Light and Darkness. It is likely the Fugue was created as a neutral ground for all deities to collect their dead in peace. Prior to the War of Light and Darkness such a plane was not needed as Selune, Chauntea, and Shar had all been in consonance up to that point. The Fugue would have been necessary in order to divy up the souls of the dead in an orderly manner without one god stealing the petitioners of another.
The fugue is just a trainstop on the way to ones real afterlife. It is the Chicago-Ohare of the afterlife, like an airline hub, where everyone goes to layover and wait for their connecting flight to their final destination. Kelemvor is just the station master. He doesn't rule over the dead so much as make sure the trains run on time and keep the place clean.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 20:08:49
We don't know that Ao didn't approve... Besides, Jergal wasn't creating new deific positions -- he was simply dividing up an existing set of portfolios. |
| Wyvernspur |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 19:18:43
I'm not sure if we can comprehend the mind of Jergal. His alien nature seems to embody the strange whims of death which will take the young and old without thought or malice. He is an amoral figure that represented death but really did not fill the category of a deity. I would speculate that he is a foil to AO, the great creator, for he had the power to give Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal deity status without the seeming consent of AO. With this speculation I suppose he fills the role of the watcher and has found that watching the dead provides the most significant information to record about the happenings of the multiuniverse. In the end I imagine that he will present his findings for judgment at which point a verdict will be decreed and existence will end. I imagine this could have something to do with the Serpent God who will swallow the sun but I'm not sure. That would give a three part Maker, Watcher, Destroyer motif. Each of the three beings are so alien that they defy mortal worship but each plays an important role in unfolding of existence
Just thoughts |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 15:01:48
Agreed. But I like to run with that idea, as I like the spellweaver race and its plot for writing down the universal meta-language coincides with the scribe and notekeeping angle of Jergal. And It makes it rather sinister why did Ao allow a diefic spellweaver help organize his crystal spheres afterlife? Why did Jergal lose interest? What is he really up to? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 14:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Jergal is a spellweaver, who've been detailed in dragon 338 as being a sixarmed race of spellcasters who've had a cataclysmic temporal collapse of their ancient multispheric empire.
Note, however, that Eric's DUNGEON #130 web supplement isn't actually Realms canon. Thus, Jergal as a spellweaver isn't canon in the Realms either. It's merely a possibility offered by Eric Boyd for his "Age of Worms" conversion notes. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 14:22:45
In the Questions for Eric L Boyd thread.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3803&whichpage=11 |
| Felen Enthelion |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 13:03:14
quote:
Jergal is a spellweaver
Really?
Wow
Where did you find this info?
Is he described in dungeon magazine 338? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 12:53:03
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
so it's just a coincidence that three gods of death in a row were humans?
Yes and no... Yes, because there is no significance to it, it just worked out that way. No, because when mortals can become deities, it only makes sense for the most populous race to have more members do it. |
| Quale |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 12:29:13
so it's just a coincidence that three gods of death in a row were humans? |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 16:15:54
Jergal is a spellweaver, who've been detailed in dragon 338 as being a sixarmed race of spellcasters who've had a cataclysmic temporal collapse of their ancient multispheric empire. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:54:52
quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
True. Maybe Jergal was a Sharruk.
-Sarrukh?
-It's possible, but I don't think so. His appearance doesn't really match with that of a Sarrukh. But, the fact that he is whatever he is lends credence to the idea that was brought up. |
| Felen Enthelion |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 12:23:04
quote:
The ruler of the Fugue just happens to have once been a Human. In theory, a Dragon could become the next ruler of the Fugue, or a Sphinx, or an Elf.
True. Maybe Jergal was a Sarrukh. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 02:24:06
quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
I mean, it is not important who you worshipped or what race you ae. You was born on Toril and that means you'll be judged by the singol-sphere god of death of Toril.
-Agreed. Upon your death, you go to 1 place to be collected by your respective deity. This happens with everyone. The ruler of the Fugue just happens to have once been a Human. In theory, a Dragon could become the next ruler of the Fugue, or a Sphinx, or an Elf. |
| Felen Enthelion |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:31:37
quote:
I'd still wouldn't care for that bit of text even if it was a dragon or drow deity that had that much power. There are at least 5 or more powers of death/dead in Faerun. It makes no sense that one "human" deity should have that much power over all souls in Faerun when there are other deities that do the same thing Kel does. Sehanine should have complete control over elven souls, even if they are False or Faithless, but she doesn't, Kel does. Dragon souls should be controled by the draconic deity of death/dead, but they arn't, they are controled by Kel, etc.
I know what AO said, but I'm asking as a out of game reason, does it make any sense why Kel has that much power? To me it does not when there are other deities of death/dead.
This topic is really interesting.
I think that Kelemvor has power on all Toril's souls because he is the only god of death of Realmspace who is not a multispherical deity (and the same was for Jergal, Myrcul and Cyric before). I mean, it is not important who you worshipped or what race you ae. You was born on Toril and that means you'll be judged by the singol-sphere god of death of Toril. That could be different fr a Planar in a Planescape setting (that means, I was born on the planes so I will be judged by the god of feath of the pantheon I worshipped), but every Crystal sphere theshould have its own rules on the destiny of a soul born on it.
All the other deities of death (Sehanine, osiris etc) arrived in the realmspace because Ao allowed them to do it and are like "guests". That's why on Toril Kelemvor is the king between them.
A pat from this, does someone remember where in second edition was stated about False and Faithless destiny? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 08:12:52
quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Actually Kuje, if even lipservice is paid then they acknowledge the deities, thus making them false. Faithless are very rare in the realms. Much Like the Athar fraction of Sigil/planescape.
I'm not too aggitated by Kel holding sway over all false and faithless... We're just angered that the false well the faithless at least, are punished for unreasonable crimes.
Sarta that is an excellent summary, we applaud thee
Then the FRCS is wrong because I got those right out of the FRCS as well as the Player's Guide. :) So the game designers are wrong, not I. Page 259 of the FRCS under City of Judgement. |
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