| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 01:58:19
Greetings, I am a DM who is celebrating their one year anniversary of dming by knocking it out of the part with my Out Of The Abyss game- I even acquired some Third Edition books on FR and the underdark, and I am spiraling into madness, researching teases and oversights from this adventure book.
CANDLEKEEPERS I SEEK YOUR COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE
I want my legendary artifacts, especially those that talk, to have a real physical origin in the game setting. Where the heck did Dawnbringer come from, who the heck was Brysis of Khaem, and what were they doing with Dawnbringer? Below is a blocked up showing of my process of trying to find meaning in Dawnbringer's short description, and an underlying theory that is utterly as mad as the wonderland that inspired Perkins in the first place.
Prologue: Inconsistencies and Oddities
From my study of this website, barely anyone has discussed OOTA content in depth since release, and the term DAWNBRINGER only had one result- about the book. I also understand that some or many of you dislike Chris Perkins... interesting take on Forgotten Realms. If the answer to my questions is ever "Chris didn't think about it" then dammit we can do better!
My research into OOTA issues started on D&DBeyond, in this thread. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/3318-oota-lore-inconsistency-stonespeaker-hgraan-and
There, I review my cross referenced dates and names between my books and wikis. Click the link if you want to hear about how the dev team might have made a one letter typo with the name Stonespeaker Hgraan.
Chapter 1: Casually dropping the Netheril Bomb
Okay, upon first review of the Lost Tomb chapter of OOTA, I was excited to see something grand from Forgotten Realms history, the legendary Netheril. However, of all the well documented floating islands of the Netherese, none were called Khaem and no Brysis was ever mentioned. What the hell is with this tomb, and how did it get dozens of miles from the desert to the east? (The desert which only formed following the fall of the Netheril, which means the tomb may have moved even further.) The floating islands of Netheril were only falling for maybe a few minutes, as some were saved by the newly rising Mystra. How did this tomb get so far west, and who was Brysis?
Chapter 2: Forged by ancient sun worshipers...? That's it?
Dawnbringer is extremely peculiar. "Created by Sun Worshipers" leaves much to be speculated. Does this mean Lathander? What orders of Lathander date back to the time of Karsus' Folly? And just how old is this sword? Is it possible that the sword was ancient even when Brysis obtained it? Is it possible that the "sun worshipers" have something to do with the Sun Elves? Could it be that Brysis took the sword from the magically powerful elves, or that it was created in their image? After-all, there is one thing tying sun elves, the nether, and the creation of magical artifacts, a secret I would gladly take to my tomb. A key.
Chapter 3: The Nether Scrolls, and Ars Factum
Ars Factum, the legendary fifth set of Nether Scrolls, which describes the creation of magical artifacts. This set of scrolls could not be understood without some kind of key, or rather- the powerful wizards of Windsong supposed that they needed some key as their attempts to use the Ars Factum always failed. There were theories that the race of the reader may have had to do with the key. Ars Factum's key was, as I see, never revealed and thought to be a DM-Choice-Goes-Here situation. There is only one place I see where Ars Factum was ever read successfully, and that
Chapter 4: The Gold is the Key
The Sun Elves were also known as the Gold Elves. The last beings known to properly use the fifth scroll were the elves of Myth Drannor, with the use of the GOLDEN GROVE Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Myth Drannor is populated by Eladrin- who were High Elves. The Sun Elves were considered a breed of High Elves. Gold is everywhere, and Dawnbringer is a gilded sword hilt. The biggest issue of Quess'Ar'Teranthvar is that the elves were able to supposedly understand the fifth, and a kind of sixth chapter by the creation of the golden dragon. This way to rearrange and walk through the whole set is fascinating, but doesn't quite fit with how the Ars Factum specifically was a keyed document.
Chapter 5: Brysis and her Sword
What if, somehow, by some insanity, Dawnbringer is related if not -the- key to the Ars Factum. Something that an ancient Netherese wished not to fall into the hands of anyone. What if Brysis of Khaem had figured this out, and took the sword into their tomb, and sunk it far away? Many people, including myself, wonder why a creature evil enough to rise as a Wraith would be clutching such a holy artifact so close to their chest? Dawnbringer burns evil creatures who wish to wield it, what if Brysis was a good hearted creature turned evil by the underdark or somehow by the aftermath of Gromph's spell? What if Brysis knew that Dawnbringer could be used as a key to the Ars Factum, to restore Netheril's mythallars? Or maybe that Dawnbringer could be used to bring an end to them?
You don't just get to play around with the Netheril and legendary artifacts, Perkins! THERE MUST BE SOMETHING! You can't just introduce major artifacts that enabled magical powers beyond the limits of Mystra's ban into a universe via a level two party in a fifth edition module!!! And more importantly, how the bloody heck does anyone explain it even being within two hundred miles of VELKYNVELVE?! Three hundred miles from the buried realms? I've cross referenced three books infront of me, scoured two forums, and crashed my browser with all these wikis- someone- please explain Dawnbringer! -faints-
Appendix: Times the Nether Scrolls were discussed before here.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14174
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5480&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17592&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19062&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
This was thrilling to research and write, come on- who has the best Forgotten Realms canon under their understanding? Who can try to put this puzzle together? Or is Brysis' tomb just something to completely ignore? Come on- even the random tower from the Labyrinth chapter canonically might reference the Daern's Instant Fortress that is mentioned in the 3rd edition Underdark book. Dawnbringer has to have some secret meaning- what sun worshippers? Why the Netheril? What was Khaem?
-Patt |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 02:36:30
Seeker PattPlays,
That is exactly what I love about those truly ancient times: they leave true mystery and there is not much about it. It truly ends up producing the greatest quality discussions I feel. :)
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 02:29:52
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Ah yes, you mean the World Serpent, Ramenos, and the avian god?
Best regards,
Precisely that. It would seem that the Wizard Empire often serves merely as a window to the aeries and faiths of the days of thunder. Anaumator, Netheril, a sentient good aligned sun sword, and a half elven sorceress who now lives as a wraith. Following these sparce clues has led me to the strangest theories of converging pantheons and draconic lore.. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 01:25:51
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Ah yes, you mean the World Serpent, Ramenos, and the avian god?
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Sep 2020 : 00:16:56
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Yeah, I hear you there. It is hard to say why it fails. My best guess is that there are more segments within the Realms enthusiast market than it appears, and for that reason (assuming it is correct), you see products that one would feel would be successful, just to see it blow up, and products that seem that they will be less successful do quite well. Tastes and preferences are an odd thing at times.
I have found that the writing in 5e modules is great for stories. I just use the module material on the few I've purchased, and discard the mechanics since I don't use them.
Best regards,
Thus my continued research! Users take the wide scattershot of the module and fill in the blanks. A user named OwlBat iirc designed higher CR identities and stories for a group of NPC's OOTA created known as "The Society of Brilliance" which dealt with yet another unique point of interest which has untapped potential: the time displaced realm of Gravenhollow, the stone library. I am just enjoying ammassing knowledge about such things, as I tend to throw far stronger PC's into its narratives.
I really do wish to know more about what Brysis Khaem could be (I have placed a book in her tomb that details her musings on the Ars Factum. I mean, all high netherese mages studied the nether scrolls, yes?) because the party is expected to take their findings (and any collected info on the demonic incursion, Brysis Khaem is sort of a red herring) to Candlekeep. And, as it is 1487DR, there are currently undiscovered Netherese agents hiding in plain sight in Candlekeep. I have got to use that! I just don't know enough about Anaumator at this time.
I suppose I shall search through more of the currently active scrolls on Netheril here at the halls. That one epic discussion on the Tripartite Divinity was fascinating.. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 17:35:19
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Yeah, I hear you there. It is hard to say why it fails. My best guess is that there are more segments within the Realms enthusiast market than it appears, and for that reason (assuming it is correct), you see products that one would feel would be successful, just to see it blow up, and products that seem that they will be less successful do quite well. Tastes and preferences are an odd thing at times.
I have found that the writing in 5e modules is great for stories. I just use the module material on the few I've purchased, and discard the mechanics since I don't use them.
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 15:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
haha...I hear you. I do indeed. Though, be careful...there are devout of Deneir among us who may take such words you utter as blasphemy, and smite us as heretics of the correct "word." ;)
Best regards,
It's just very strange! Rage of demons was built as this vast mutli-branch product line with books and video game expansions and neverwinter nights content and a module and it kind of fizzled. I'm electing to take the module more seriously than it was intended to be received and that means pulling up all kinds of realmslore to occupy the demon lords.
Fawnbringer though is just odd. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 06:10:03
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
haha...I hear you. I do indeed. Though, be careful...there are devout of Deneir among us who may take such words you utter as blasphemy, and smite us as heretics of the correct "word." ;)
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 03:05:09
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Ahhh, that makes sense. I am not a 5e follower of note, so that is why I am not all over that. I may have to dig into that for the lore though. Interesting.
Thank you.
Best regards,
That's 5e's jam. Introfuce a world shaking insane bresak in the setting and then clean it up in a safe little bow.
Tiamat is here! Oh don't worry you have armies.
Strahd is a multiversal badass! But now he's in a doll.
The demon lords are here, who warp reality with their abyssal essence! Heart talisman go boop now they slap eachother out of existence.
It's fun but its a bit stale. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 02:25:22
Learned Scribe PattPlays,
Ahhh, that makes sense. I am not a 5e follower of note, so that is why I am not all over that. I may have to dig into that for the lore though. Interesting.
Thank you.
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 00:38:48
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe PattyPlays,
Which module do you have that you referenced in this post?
Best regards,
That is Out of the abyss, cpthero. Although my interests have mostly shifted to crazy ideas about the ilithyr, ghaunadaur, and the living gem war among other things it is still a pet mystery of mine to figure out what Dawnbringer would rationally be. And Orcus' wand should have had an explanation as well but 5e would never bother, and I get that.
Oota is the module that this throwaway netherese dungeon appears in, whih contains a legendary sentient sun sword, just hangin out.
Edit: And on the note of the tiefling/aasimar, wild magic surges are one hell of a drug. Self fireball after reincarnation for a minute after having recovered dawnbringer as a symbol of them growing. Aasimar wasnt in the reincarnation table but it just felt right.
In the new campaign our first faerzress surge roll it was a nat 20, and sent the druid to the astral for a moment. Wild magic is a hell of a drug. Apparently it allows you to chain gate spells and conduct demonic madness, faerzress. Crazy stuff. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 14 Sep 2020 : 00:01:36
Learned Scribe PattyPlays,
Which module do you have that you referenced in this post?
Best regards,
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 19 Jul 2020 : 19:31:28
Baenrae (that is one *old* drow, lucky they had that everliving stuff from the Villains Lore Supplememt in 2e) cast a spell spexifically focusing on Faezress. He planned to 'ignite' all the faezress throughout the underdark.
Vizeran DeVir believes the ritual was meant to summon and bind just one demon lord. Quoting them:
"a unique ritual - one that somehow drew on the energy of Faezress to channel incalculable arcane power. The walls between the planes shuddered."
Gromph's grimoire which he used to cast the spell is titled Zhaun'ol'leal or "The book of the eight". It rests opened up to a page about summoning Demogorgon.
A Yochogol posing as a drow named Y'lara was sent to oversee the ritual. She says, when asked what Llolth has to gain, "Chaos".
I have the module, other people have the novel. I am welcome to cross reference with one another, because ir is clear that novel readers know a lot more about Faezress than I do. I just found a thread titled "half-fiend drow?" which was going on and on about faezress.
|
| Delnyn |
Posted - 19 Jul 2020 : 18:02:42
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
for OOTA did they ever explain exactly why all of a sudden all these demon lords were appearing in Faerun's underdark (whether it be them or just like an "avatar" of theirs, etc...)? I got about hallway through the module before turning to something else, and I liked some of the ideas, but I don't ever recall there being "and this is why all of a sudden they've all appeared here".
It was a botched summoning by Gromph Baenre in the Salvatore novel "Archmage". |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jul 2020 : 15:45:23
for OOTA did they ever explain exactly why all of a sudden all these demon lords were appearing in Faerun's underdark (whether it be them or just like an "avatar" of theirs, etc...)? I got about hallway through the module before turning to something else, and I liked some of the ideas, but I don't ever recall there being "and this is why all of a sudden they've all appeared here". |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 19 Jul 2020 : 09:40:29
I am getting stressed out with circumstance.. I knew that the realms were intentionally self-intersecting and complex with deep lore and repeat offenders in the form of ancient threats and interconnected threads but- my head is pounding with research.
Hellgate keep has NOTHING in modern D&D, and here I am realizing that both Grazz't and Ghaunadaur could have massive impacts on the world through the intervention of the Daemonfae house there. I'm shivering with the realization that, since my warlock confirmed the existence of Juibilex on the material world of Toril to Ghaunadaur, would the worshippers of House Baergnthdaleth (intentional mispell) begin summoning the avatar of That Which Lurks to travel 3000 miles from Llurth Drier to face Juibilex for the fate of Ghaunadaur's divine domain on the realms??
I started this specific campaign off with Prince Derendil, a mad Quaggoth posing as an elf prince of a nonsense realm, crawling up out of the underdark and encountering the party. The party then just let the guy walk out blinded into the High Forest. This maniac could EASILY walk north to Hellgate Keep and begin telling tales of demons and madness loose in the underdark- an unpredictable event as nothing has been written about Hellgate Keep in over a hundred years of lore! They could walk west to the High Forest- and poke at another hole in the lore in the Wood Elven home of Reilanthor. For crying out loud- I accidentally put the adventure start within two hundred miles of Karse!
The party is close to uncovering the new and improved tomb of Brysis Khaem, as well as attaining the ire of three powerful demon agents. I have an Abyssal Demon for Yeonoghu, a spawn of Kyuss for Orcus' best wormy lieutenant, and a Yochogol posing as a priestess of Kiransalee all who are scouting out the underdark for information. I also have plans to introduce Grazz't as a threat on the overworld, but can't figure out where to focus him. The prince of pleasure is the only stat block to have Teleport, which means he could be anywhere on toril at any given moment.
The party has a date with Candlekeep once they recover either Dawnbringer or the The book of painted flesh. A book that, mind you, only exists because a party member wanted me to include Spell Tattoos- a random 5e unearthed arcana that is strikingly similar to the work of the Red Wizards and their spells from classic 2e lore that I have poured over. When they get into Candlekeep (thank you Descent into Avernus for the inspiration there) I intend on just sending them back into the North (this time on the correct side of the High Forest in order to investigate the core module adventure locations. However I want to harry the party with cult activity from the cults not expressed explicitly in OOTA. If I have a legit Demon Lord teleporting and shapeshifting their way across the Savage Frontier- well let's just say I expect to find even more terrifyingly related excerpts relating to cults and debauchery when I get researching whatever town the party happens to stop in on while hurrying westward.
If you were Grazz't, what would you even do with three teleports a day? Bum around undetected in small towns and bring madness? What does modern Faerun even have for him?
Actually- does anyone have a good idea for where in the underdark Grazz't would have spawned in? I said that Juibilex spawned into the Oozing Temple, and then hurried off southward towards Llurth Drier. (If there were a straight path, he could get to the capital city of ooze worship in a MONTH... I mean- what would even HAPPEN if Juibilex and the avatar of That Which Lurks met one another???) Grazz't can't accurately teleport to anywhere he has never heard of, so what would be their move? I can't even use the apparition of Grazz't from Gravenhollow, as that could have been an echo from the future. What does Grazz't even know about Faerun? About the upper northdark?
Again, just like how Orcus' story seems ripe for some kind of strategy game about how to best use 500 hit points of undead a day to attempt to take over rivals east of the Anauroch desert, Grazz't seems like this hilarious game of filling in map locations exponentionally as he moves from town to town, seducing those who have travelled afar, driving the local population insane, then teleporting several hundred miles away and expanding outward daily. Think of the body count that a cr 20+ 5e stat block with Big-Three Demon Lord intelligence could claim with basic shapeshifting and insane spell-save DCs? Cr0 commoners would be almost all he would have to interact with. Do you think there's room for some honestly charming stories of a lowly nobody getting taken on a journey across the realms with their magical six fingered bestie?
Grazz't could just avoid the Sword Coast and Thay, and get up to endless shenanigans while carrying with him a teleport-sized gang of followers. Dominating monsters and charming the pants off of any humanoid within two miles, I mean he could just pull a "The Traveller"/Jesus Christ and found a whole new religion just while traveling about and talking with people. He knows that someone's just going to banish him in a year or so, and that on Faerun of all places he's going to get ABSOLUTELY WRECKED if Waterdeep catches wind of his existence here, so he'd probably just adopt new personalities and... hang out with nobodies? It's so strange, but he really could start up a whole new following without ever letting on that he's already an established demon. Or, he could singlehandedly take over a kingdom like Cormyr. Torture a few Drow into summoning seven Succubi, teleport each one to all capital cities he can get his hands on, and then use his ridiculous charm modifiers to.... I mean it's just like Orcus. It's some kind of strange free-play RTS fantasy of how much can you screw with the ignored back-woods of 5th Edition Toril before the Dark Heart Talisman banishes him back to the Abyss (unless he resists it, which is heavily implied to be possible in OOTA).
Every time something happens in my game, it opens up connections to everything. It's honestly exhausting. ^-^' I pick a random spot for a netehrese tomb to fall, and I suddenly have Hellgate Keep and the Silver Falls. I let loose a mad Quaggoth, and suddenly the High Forest is aware of the Underdark's shenanigans. I involve That Which Lurks and suddenly the Daemonfae of Hellgate Keep might reach out to a party member. I use an old Eilistraee cleric I build for one 3.5 game as a throwaway NPC and suddenly I discover the INTENSE connections between Skullport, Elistraee, Ghuanadaur, and the freaking UNDERMOUNTAIN!
Keep in mind that in the lands that Wizards of the coast has completely abandoned, Orcus is literally playing a hacked copy of 'Civilization' and possibly conquering the Hall of Bones in the east.
_
All of this is ignoring the actual narrative of the ending of the story. Demogorgon gets destroyed in a novel while the adventurers have an uncertain victory against him in the campaign. All the while Lloth has free reign over a dozen layers of the Abyss for at least a year. Trying to take the lore seriously (I know, there's not even a timeline for any of this stuff, it's just for fun and to sell modules, but I can't help myself!) has me wondering about EXTREMELY OBSCURE THINGS
like... that worm demon lord in Fraz-Urblu's layer of Hollow Heart- is it taking over in his absence? Are the great mountains and the great city of lies returning to white dust without their master? Does Grazz't actually stand a chance at keeping control over three whole layers while being AFK? What of the vestige of Tenebrous with Orcus just getting his wand back for free?
And... didn't Asmodeus become a god and chuck the Abyss in its entirety inside of the elemental chaos in the Spellplague?
;-; Is there any hope for the Abyss to make any sense going forward?
Will Wizards ever tell a story not set in Faerun? (Although the Lost Laboratory of Kwalish being supposedly set east of The Great Sea in the planet's tallest mountain range is dope. Thanks to that user for their theory there.)
I feel like I could use this one simple module to delve endlessly into Forgotten Realms lore. And now I just want to know how in the HHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL I am supposed to just GUESS what Hellgate has been up to in TWO HUNDRED YEARS!!! *sigh*
Man this is fun.
Edit: Dear Ao if Juibilex and That Which Lurks weaken one another by confusing the hell out of the prayers to Ghuanadaur, will they all be so weak in the domain of Elder Elemental Ooze that Tharizidun will have an equal chance at attaining that domain in Faerun?
This just in, local blob of goo ruins everything.
Edit: Just picked up that Faezress has a LOT more to it than OOTA let off... I have to read the books now don't I? <_<' |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 07:21:05
Seeker PattPlays,
Thank you for that. Greatly appreciated! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Tom,
Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?
There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.
"Netheril: Empire of Magic. by slade with Jim Butler."
Ah, glorious 2e textbook reading. Seriously, the table of contents in this book are a ton of brilliant inspiration on its own; questions are posed that really do bring fantastic notions to mind. However, dear god this book needs a face-lift. Beyond the obvious issues of having a slug's motivation in the mind-numbing layout (at least the PHB had a successful format despite the Table soup) this book fails to bring the wow factor the setting so easily promises.
I'm just skimming through, but imagine if the Ravnica book that recently came out for 5e just did it's best to introduce and accommodate your adventure into it, focusing primarily on describing meta changes to spellcasting, cultural standings, available equipment, and 30 pages on more options for divine spellcasting. Because... that's this book upon first glance.
It doesn't celebrate itself, it mundanes itself. I understand the notion of wanting to describe your setting from the perspective of those living in it- but a setting guide really shouldn't ignore the demographic of players bound to be involved in the game. It does nothing to really encourage -visiting- the place, just explanations for the lives lived within.
A startlingly short section titled The Campaign straight up introduces itself by saying the following, and in doing so actively tries to discourage the DM from getting too excited.
quote:
Good role-players can aid in playing an enjoyable Netheril campaign as well, but what about those players who want to bring their favorite characters in the modern-day Realms (1370DR) back to the time of Netheril? Those characters already know what happened to the Netherese, and they just might be inclined to try and stop the impending cataclysm (like all good adventurers).
Jeesh... 2e consistently proves to be at all times both encouraging and discouraging. I seriously think it would not take a lot of effort at ALL (especially if /tg/ got involved) to refit this book with some new polish and write it in a way directed toward players alongside DM's, with the new formats of having the first third of the book be for players' eyes.
Wouldn't it be great to have a book that screams about the most exciting aspect of opportunities in Netheril? The expectation of "all good role-players" should not be reducing this entire setting to a single thunder-stealing dour attitude! It should, instead, sell itself as Netheril would have sold itself to the surrounding lands of Faerun: Bold, Dangerous, Unhinged, a self-complicating society that treats magic as an extension of the body the same way our technological devices today are a part of us, and of course- full of Hubris. Not hubris in a literary sense of "oh I can see where this is going", but instead a hubris so confident and charismatic that it inspires voyeurs.
Netheril should be a Vegeta; at its most entertaining and most easy to enjoy when they are riding high and about to collapse.
I say... run this.
_
Run a game based in a non-specific past time in The Forgotten Realms where the party are from the various outer tribes to the west and east of Netheril, coming together to find a way inside the society for a chance at learning their secrets and getting some excitement in their boring sub-ancient lives. Of course, many players will be aware of the legend of the fall of Netheril, but don't make it look at all like that is going to happen any time soon. Give no hints or call-outs that would make them think it is happening any time soon. Have a full-on raucous Roaring 20's party campaign with threats and celebrations and high level nonsense chasing around a level two or three party, written in a way applicable to both classic and modern D&D.
Then, just when the party is most vulnerable, with their plans all set out for the coming week or month, start the collapse. Imagine a campaign at the ground level where the spread of information is moving at the speed of a bound and gagged sloth. Imagine Majora's Mask- but where the moon arrives five minutes from midnight on the final day.
A campaign setting that is one part high netheril, and one part collapse . Everyone can imagine a "oh no the thing that happened is happening" campaign, sure. But what about a catastrophe so slow to notice and so fast to fall victim to, that there is no "fighting back" and there is no "trying to stop it". The party never even hears about Karsus, and it never even comes up. Imagine in the duration of one single session, maybe two or five or fifteen sessions in, you take the party from riding high to making a plan to survive post-apocalypse.
You have the party coming from the lands of poverty, starvation, and roving monsters in seek of metropolitan excitement. Then, as soon as they can taste that luxury, take it away and leave them roaming fresh ruins in a world that reflects the homes they left from. Within a year, the ruins will be resettled by the various cultures and tribes the party came from, and fighting will pick up as nothing seems to have changed.
Now that is some storytelling right there. Why the hell did this team of writers knee-cap themselves when they had the opportunity to create the next best thing to Vecna Lives ?
-Patt
https://ThisIsStorytelling.wordpress.com
PS: It'd be like the recent Waterdeep modules, but a third of the way through the whole city just becomes TOAST!
In conclusion, this module was made to bring your favorite characters into the world of netheril. What. A. Waste. By creating baseless fanservice the setting failed to do what settings are supposed to. You should have a setting book that is indended to have characters made for and inside it, and not for being pidgeonholed into a STRICTLY TEMPORARY temporal vacation . This deserves a fan re-imagining.
|
| PattPlays |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 07:00:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Tom,
Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?
There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.
"Netheril: Empire of Magic. by slade with Jim Butler."
Ah, glorious 2e textbook reading. Seriously, the table of contents in this book are a ton of brilliant inspiration on its own; questions are posed that really do bring fantastic notions to mind. However, dear god this book needs a face-lift. Beyond the obvious issues of having a slug's motivation in the mind-numbing layout (at least the PHB had a successful format despite the Table soup) this book fails to bring the wow factor the setting so easily promises.
I'm just skimming through, but imagine if the Ravnica book that recently came out for 5e just did it's best to introduce and accommodate your adventure into it, focusing primarily on describing meta changes to spellcasting, cultural standings, available equipment, and 30 pages on more options for divine spellcasting. Because... that's this book upon first glance.
It doesn't celebrate itself, it mundanes itself. I understand the notion of wanting to describe your setting from the perspective of those living in it- but a setting guide really shouldn't ignore the demographic of players bound to be involved in the game. It does nothing to really encourage -visiting- the place, just explanations for the lives lived within.
A startlingly short section titled The Campaign straight up introduces itself by saying the following, and in doing so actively tries to discourage the DM from getting too excited.
quote:
Good role-players can aid in playing an enjoyable Netheril campaign as well, but what about those players who want to bring their favorite characters in the modern-day Realms (1370DR) back to the time of Netheril? Those characters already know what happened to the Netherese, and they just might be inclined to try and stop the impending cataclysm (like all good adventurers).
Jeesh... 2e consistently proves to be at all times both encouraging and discouraging. I seriously think it would not take a lot of effort at ALL (especially if /tg/ got involved) to refit this book with some new polish and write it in a way directed toward players alongside DM's, with the new formats of having the first third of the book be for players' eyes.
Wouldn't it be great to have a book that screams about the most exciting aspect of opportunities in Netheril? The expectation of "all good role-players" should not be reducing this entire setting to a single thunder-stealing dour attitude! It should, instead, sell itself as Netheril would have sold itself to the surrounding lands of Faerun: Bold, Dangerous, Unhinged, a self-complicating society that treats magic as an extension of the body the same way our technological devices today are a part of us, and of course- full of Hubris. Not hubris in a literary sense of "oh I can see where this is going", but instead a hubris so confident and charismatic that it inspires voyeurs.
Netheril should be a Vegeta; at its most entertaining and most easy to enjoy when they are riding high and about to collapse.
I say... run this.
_
Run a game based in a non-specific past time in The Forgotten Realms where the party are from the various outer tribes to the west and east of Netheril, coming together to find a way inside the society for a chance at learning their secrets and getting some excitement in their boring sub-ancient lives. Of course, many players will be aware of the legend of the fall of Netheril, but don't make it look at all like that is going to happen any time soon. Give no hints or call-outs that would make them think it is happening any time soon. Have a full-on raucous Roaring 20's party campaign with threats and celebrations and high level nonsense chasing around a level two or three party, written in a way applicable to both classic and modern D&D.
Then, just when the party is most vulnerable, with their plans all set out for the coming week or month, start the collapse. Imagine a campaign at the ground level where the spread of information is moving at the speed of a bound and gagged sloth. Imagine Majora's Mask- but where the moon arrives five minutes from midnight on the final day.
A campaign setting that is one part high netheril, and one part collapse . Everyone can imagine a "oh no the thing that happened is happening" campaign, sure. But what about a catastrophe so slow to notice and so fast to fall victim to, that there is no "fighting back" and there is no "trying to stop it". The party never even hears about Karsus, and it never even comes up. Imagine in the duration of one single session, maybe two or five or fifteen sessions in, you take the party from riding high to making a plan to survive post-apocalypse.
You have the party coming from the lands of poverty, starvation, and roving monsters in seek of metropolitan excitement. Then, as soon as they can taste that luxury, take it away and leave them roaming fresh ruins in a world that reflects the homes they left from. Within a year, the ruins will be resettled by the various cultures and tribes the party came from, and fighting will pick up as nothing seems to have changed.
Now that is some storytelling right there. Why the hell did this team of writers knee-cap themselves when they had the opportunity to create the next best thing to Vecna Lives ?
-Patt
https://ThisIsStorytelling.wordpress.com
PS: It'd be like the recent Waterdeep modules, but a third of the way through the whole city just becomes TOAST!
In conclusion, this module was made to bring your favorite characters into the world of netheril. What. A. Waste. By creating baseless fanservice the setting failed to do what settings are supposed to. You should have a setting book that is indended to have characters made for and inside it, and not for being pidgeonholed into a STRICTLY TEMPORARY temporal vacation . This deserves a fan re-imagining. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 06:24:46
Master Rupert,
Yeah, I never got around to reading those novels to date, so that is good to know they make it all worse in advance.
So, nothing else you can think of that squares the circle?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Tom,
Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?
There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 05:26:17
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Tom,
Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?
There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 03:16:23
Tom,
Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Be wary though, the Netheril box set has a lot of fiddly things and some errors, which is why several folks have said if there was 1 FR product they could throw out or redo, it's that one.
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 03:04:58
Tom,
Thank you. That is a fantastic point! Thanks for catching that for me! :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Be wary though, the Netheril box set has a lot of fiddly things and some errors, which is why several folks have said if there was 1 FR product they could throw out or redo, it's that one.
|
| TomCosta |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 01:49:39
Be wary though, the Netheril box set has a lot of fiddly things and some errors, which is why several folks have said if there was 1 FR product they could throw out or redo, it's that one. |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 00:34:02
Seeker PattPlays,
You definitely should try and find the Netheril boxes set from 2nd edition if you can. It is awesome, and you will find all sorts of material in there that will lay a wonderful foundation for all sorts of campaigns going forward!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Greetings, I am a DM who is celebrating their one year anniversary of dming by knocking it out of the part with my Out Of The Abyss game- I even acquired some Third Edition books on FR and the underdark, and I am spiraling into madness, researching teases and oversights from this adventure book.
CANDLEKEEPERS I SEEK YOUR COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE
I want my legendary artifacts, especially those that talk, to have a real physical origin in the game setting. Where the heck did Dawnbringer come from, who the heck was Brysis of Khaem, and what were they doing with Dawnbringer? Below is a blocked up showing of my process of trying to find meaning in Dawnbringer's short description, and an underlying theory that is utterly as mad as the wonderland that inspired Perkins in the first place.
Prologue: Inconsistencies and Oddities
From my study of this website, barely anyone has discussed OOTA content in depth since release, and the term DAWNBRINGER only had one result- about the book. I also understand that some or many of you dislike Chris Perkins... interesting take on Forgotten Realms. If the answer to my questions is ever "Chris didn't think about it" then dammit we can do better!
My research into OOTA issues started on D&DBeyond, in this thread. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/3318-oota-lore-inconsistency-stonespeaker-hgraan-and
There, I review my cross referenced dates and names between my books and wikis. Click the link if you want to hear about how the dev team might have made a one letter typo with the name Stonespeaker Hgraan.
Chapter 1: Casually dropping the Netheril Bomb
Okay, upon first review of the Lost Tomb chapter of OOTA, I was excited to see something grand from Forgotten Realms history, the legendary Netheril. However, of all the well documented floating islands of the Netherese, none were called Khaem and no Brysis was ever mentioned. What the hell is with this tomb, and how did it get dozens of miles from the desert to the east? (The desert which only formed following the fall of the Netheril, which means the tomb may have moved even further.) The floating islands of Netheril were only falling for maybe a few minutes, as some were saved by the newly rising Mystra. How did this tomb get so far west, and who was Brysis?
Chapter 2: Forged by ancient sun worshipers...? That's it?
Dawnbringer is extremely peculiar. "Created by Sun Worshipers" leaves much to be speculated. Does this mean Lathander? What orders of Lathander date back to the time of Karsus' Folly? And just how old is this sword? Is it possible that the sword was ancient even when Brysis obtained it? Is it possible that the "sun worshipers" have something to do with the Sun Elves? Could it be that Brysis took the sword from the magically powerful elves, or that it was created in their image? After-all, there is one thing tying sun elves, the nether, and the creation of magical artifacts, a secret I would gladly take to my tomb. A key.
Chapter 3: The Nether Scrolls, and Ars Factum
Ars Factum, the legendary fifth set of Nether Scrolls, which describes the creation of magical artifacts. This set of scrolls could not be understood without some kind of key, or rather- the powerful wizards of Windsong supposed that they needed some key as their attempts to use the Ars Factum always failed. There were theories that the race of the reader may have had to do with the key. Ars Factum's key was, as I see, never revealed and thought to be a DM-Choice-Goes-Here situation. There is only one place I see where Ars Factum was ever read successfully, and that
Chapter 4: The Gold is the Key
The Sun Elves were also known as the Gold Elves. The last beings known to properly use the fifth scroll were the elves of Myth Drannor, with the use of the GOLDEN GROVE Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Myth Drannor is populated by Eladrin- who were High Elves. The Sun Elves were considered a breed of High Elves. Gold is everywhere, and Dawnbringer is a gilded sword hilt. The biggest issue of Quess'Ar'Teranthvar is that the elves were able to supposedly understand the fifth, and a kind of sixth chapter by the creation of the golden dragon. This way to rearrange and walk through the whole set is fascinating, but doesn't quite fit with how the Ars Factum specifically was a keyed document.
Chapter 5: Brysis and her Sword
What if, somehow, by some insanity, Dawnbringer is related if not -the- key to the Ars Factum. Something that an ancient Netherese wished not to fall into the hands of anyone. What if Brysis of Khaem had figured this out, and took the sword into their tomb, and sunk it far away? Many people, including myself, wonder why a creature evil enough to rise as a Wraith would be clutching such a holy artifact so close to their chest? Dawnbringer burns evil creatures who wish to wield it, what if Brysis was a good hearted creature turned evil by the underdark or somehow by the aftermath of Gromph's spell? What if Brysis knew that Dawnbringer could be used as a key to the Ars Factum, to restore Netheril's mythallars? Or maybe that Dawnbringer could be used to bring an end to them?
You don't just get to play around with the Netheril and legendary artifacts, Perkins! THERE MUST BE SOMETHING! You can't just introduce major artifacts that enabled magical powers beyond the limits of Mystra's ban into a universe via a level two party in a fifth edition module!!! And more importantly, how the bloody heck does anyone explain it even being within two hundred miles of VELKYNVELVE?! Three hundred miles from the buried realms? I've cross referenced three books infront of me, scoured two forums, and crashed my browser with all these wikis- someone- please explain Dawnbringer! -faints-
Appendix: Times the Nether Scrolls were discussed before here.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14174
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5480&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17592&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19062&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
This was thrilling to research and write, come on- who has the best Forgotten Realms canon under their understanding? Who can try to put this puzzle together? Or is Brysis' tomb just something to completely ignore? Come on- even the random tower from the Labyrinth chapter canonically might reference the Daern's Instant Fortress that is mentioned in the 3rd edition Underdark book. Dawnbringer has to have some secret meaning- what sun worshippers? Why the Netheril? What was Khaem?
-Patt
|
| Fineva |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 07:27:02
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P
Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese.
Well Dawnbringer is described as sounding feminine, so I was hoping that this General would correspond with Dawnbringer. And unless this guy has a flamboyant falsetto, he must be a different Netherese sword.
Definitely, General Hazirawn is the greatsword Hazirawn, my illustration was to show how the swords may have been made. Dawnbringer and all intelligent items in the laboratory flee or refuse to touch the foulness. This extends to summoned beings also. |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 04:59:18
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P
Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese.
Well Dawnbringer is described as sounding feminine, so I was hoping that this General would correspond with Dawnbringer. And unless this guy has a flamboyant falsetto, he must be a different Netherese sword. |
| Fineva |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 04:05:10
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P
Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese. |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 20:25:54
As of 5e, Amaunataur and Lathander are separate entities. There was an event known as the Deliverance (covered in the Erevis Calw books) where there was the belief amongst some followers of Lathander that Amaunataur would replace Lathander (or Lath would morph into Amaunataur). This was seen as heresy, then, of course, it happened in 4e, with Amaunataur taking the place of Lath. Now, however, they are separate again and coinciding.
Looks like other scribes have already provided knowledge, though :) |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 19:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P |
| Fineva |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 07:04:17
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
|
| TBeholder |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 01:23:09
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Also Netheril was noted for not being kind to elves or other races so I'm not going to make her from Netheril.
Where did you get this?
The folk of Seventon (before the Nether Scrolls) were good pals, allies (against the orcs) and eager pupils of the Eaerlanni.
From the Nether Age, the Elven view turned toward "Netherese are our former apprentices who lost caution" and Netherese toward "eh, Elves resent us for leaving them behind".
Generally arrogant, sure, but they (except That One Village Xanth) never were hostile to the elves in general.
quote:
The Cormanthyr elves were initially quite fond of the Netherese, providing aid and assistance during
Netheril’s early years. As Netheril’s magical strength grew, however, the elves gradually backed away,
content to let the humans discover for themselves the powers and perils of magic use. [...]
The Earlanni were the most-battered survivors from the Crown Wars thousands of years ago. While still a major force in Netheril,
their presence was mostly ignored by the other elves, since their civilization never recovered from the wars that reduced their population. [...]
The Illefarni elves [...] viewed the Netherese as barbarians who destroyed everything in their path.
Virtually all of the Illefarni were wild elves, and they developed a distrust for the rapidly expanding Netherese early on.
They were on friendly terms with individual arcanists from Netheril, but they viewed Netheril from the Silver Age forward
as wicked, wasteful, and decadent.
-Netheril, p.16
(and again, all of them were allies vs. goblinoids)
quote:
The city of Delia was elevated high above the Shadowtop trees in 2458 by the sorceress known as Lady Polaris.
Originally known for its druidic and elven origins, the city was quickly assimilated into the fast-paced life typical of other enclaves.
The druids and elves who founded the city and agreed to its elevation soon grew disillusioned and left for more ground-based surroundings.
-Netheril, p.70
Shadowtop Borough [...] this enclave of friendly arcanists was often overlooked by the other enclaves. They traded consistently with the elves and
other outsiders since they were founded in 1592 by the archwizard Trebbe
-Netheril, p.87
The westernmost village in Netheril, this city traded heavily with the elves of Eaerlann and Illefarn. [...] Few Netherese paid much attention to the huge meeting save for
merchants in the enclaves and other cities, but the elves and dwarves met in large numbers within Westwendt Village.
-Netheril, p.91
So while the elves did steer clear of the mythallars, and nobody likes arrogant and aggressive wizards (what a surprise), the more decent Netherese don't seem to have problems dealing with the elves, if they want.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
_Her LAST NAME was Khaem! That was the Netherese FAMILY! Some elf married into the human society and produced a grand noble, one who was not among the saved cities of Netheril.
Why not? Netherese usually looked down at half-elves, but attitudes differ by enclave, and ultimately what determined status in Netheril was how much magic one can juggle.
For the same reason, "noble" may be a misnomer, but a talented magic-user born in an important family was more or less an equivalent.
Another possibility, and a link between the elves and Amaunator:
quote:
Unity
This community was named after a promise made by humans, elves, and dwarves to unite against the onslaught of goblin and orc raiding parties.
Established in the early 600s, Unity served as a base of operations against the warring goblinkind until the elves’ and dwarves’ civilization finally collapsed.
The Shadowed Age (3163-3519): [...] Unity was home to the largest temple to Amaunator. [...]
An attack of extra-planar fiends in 3499 raised havoc within Unity, the fiends trying to take control of the city to have a base from which to launch attacks against the Karsus enclave.
A three-year battle erupted over control of the city [...]
The Fall and Beyond (3520+): With the backlash against Amaunator due to the fall of Netheril, the following of Amaunator quickly diminished. Anauroch slowly moved to engulf Unity,
and the few remaining residents traveled west into the Savage Frontier and south into the survivor states.
-Netheril, p.91
quote:
"inside of the sarcophagus with SOVEREIGN GLUE and can't be moved"
_This family had SOVEREIGN GLUE? That's TWO LEGENDARY MAGIC ITEMS!! Jesus!
I didn't pay much attention... did D&D5 go full Pokemon? 
quote:
A player in my game, a previously tiefling now aasimar
Haha... what? |
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