| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 16:48:09
I've been converting the Powers and Pantheons book into a text document (long task) and i came across this line
quote:
Some legends claim Garagos (GAH-rah-gohs) was the primary war god in western Faerūn until he was overthrown by the upstart Tempus. Certainly Garagos was worshipped in Westgate and the Vilhon Reach during the days of Myth Drannor, and his faith was strong long before that time reportedly even in ancient Netheril.
We have shrines to Garagos in the hills of the lost gods and he has a temple in the catacombs of westgate that was there before 900 DR.
Now the connection to Netheril is apparent in the writeup of Targus which seems to be a word for word copy of Garagos except the addition of him being smitten with Shar.
So we have a conundrum here. Garagos is supposedly the god of war of the two major groups of humans in western Faerun - Jhaamdath (Jhaamdath being the Vilhon Reach area around and before Netheril) and Netheril.
So if that is true where did Tempus come from (please no real world history). Is he a Northman god? Did he come from the south? Did he arrive with Tyr? Was he a Jhaamdathan demi-power (demi-powers can have the same portfolio's as higher powers)?
Tempus supposedly was born when Selune and Shar first fought. However his besting of Garagos and assumption of primary god of war could have resulted in this origin since Garagos may have been the one born when Selune and Shar first fought and so by beating Garagos Tempus essentially becomes him (until Garagos returns in 1368).
There also remains the question of when Tempus and Garagos fought. Since Westgate and the Vilhon Reach and Netheril are mentioned and Westgate was an outpost of Jhaamdath which was destroyed in -255 DR (forcing a diaspora northwards) and Netheril was destroyed in -339 DR forcing a diaspora southwards. Perhaps Garagos was forced into demi-power status following the catastrophic collapse of the centres of his two primary power bases.
Maybe Tempus was just a minor demi-power at the time that existed around the Inner Sea or Western Heartlands area. Perhaps the diaspora of Garagos's faithful brought him into conflict with Tempus and the two actually fought somewhere on Faerun (since demi-powers are usually Material Plane bound). sometime before Dalereckoning.
Anyone have any information i havent mentioned or any thoughts (again no real world history please) |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 15:57:46
Since one of Westgate's Prince-Templars (a Holy Council of temple priests who took over after the Bluebottle Plague killed King Thartyrn II in 890 DR), Gostaraj, was a high priest of Garagos and he slaughtered his peers to become king in 900 DR, it does go some way towards Aldrick's 'fighting over centuries' research. |
| Aldrick |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 18:05:16
Powers and Pantheons under the Garagos entry: "He was thought killed by Tempus, as he is recorded as slain, but either this means that he was destroyed as the primary war god of Faerun, a position which Tempus took from him as the spoils of their one-on-one battle, or he was resurrected by some of his diehard cultists along the southern coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars in the Vilhon Reach, or in the Border Kingdoms. He is most certainly not dead, but alive.
...
In 1368 DR, Garagos reappeared to crush an imposter, the marilith Glackzana, a tanar'ri who had been attempting to start a cult in his name using her powers to present herself in a form like that of his avatar. He demolished the temple built to her at the ruined village of Gosra, located in the Fields of Nun of central Chondath, and ordered it reconstructed in a more grand manner and rededicated to his worship."
I believe that is the reference I was thinking about.
However, as I was reading looking for the information I realized an issue with the dates. The Time of Troubles occurred in 1358 DR, and this took place a full decade afterward. We know Garagos appeared in Westgate during the Time of Troubles, and so this means that he was still very much alive. So he could not have been completely slain, or otherwise he would not have appeared during the Time of Troubles.
I still like the theory that the current Garagos is the original Garagos rather than Targus, simply because it explains the shift in personality that the lore talks about.
Also, the lore makes clear in one point that Garagos and Tempus were battling "for centuries" before Tempus finally slew Garagos. All of the information is written in a holy book called "The Tome of Foehammer's Triumph." The book is a collection of scriptures held to be holy by the cult of Tempus, and tells of the "centuries long" conflict between Tempus and Garagos before "turning the Reaver's mindless fury against him" and defeating him in battle.
My hunch is that the centuries long conflict is a mythical tale of the battle between the two cults. Things likely ended in a grand way when there was some major battle, and the avatars of Tempus and Garagos/Targus faced off, with Tempus walking away the victor.
It is possible that Tempus killed the original Targus, and continued diehard worship of Garagos in some regions of the Realms was enough to revive the original Garagos since they worshiped him under that name. This allows all explanations in the lore to be true. Garagos (Targus) was defeated, and diehard cultists DID resurrect Garagos (the original). As we have Garagos (the original) and not Garagos (Targus) this also explains the changes in personality. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 17:41:56
Could be. I might have written something in the Cloak & Dagger web enhancement.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I think this is largely right, except maybe for #9. I would make it more along the lines of "the northern branch of the faith (Targus-worshipers) fade in number, and the "southern branch of the faith (Garagos-worshipers) rise in relative prominence, but overall the worship of Tempus soars. (And perhaps Tempus defeats Garagos and subjugates him concurrent with a battle in which Tempus-worshipers defeat Targus/Garagos-worshipers.)
--Eric
...but if I remember correctly the worship of Garagos/Targus had virtually died out entirely. The faith was essentially wiped out completely, and was only revived when a demon attempted to take up the mantle of Garagos in Westgate by impersonating the (then very much assumed to be dead) deity. Garagos then seemingly reappeared as a result, the demon was killed, and his faith returned to the Realms (centered around Westgate).
I believe this is how the faith of Garagos returned to the Realms. I will have to look up the sources, to confirm the exact details of the story.
Anyway, to my understanding the worship of Targus/Garagos had virtually died out. His faith seemed to have suffered largely the same fate as Amaunator. This makes sense as the cult of Tempus would be subsuming the faithful of Targus/Garagos into their own faith, and waging war on those who did not embrace him as the deity of war.
I imagine if you actually dig down deep on a very local level on some of the cults of Tempus, you will find remnants of old Targus/Garagos practices as part of the local orthopraxy. We would likely even discover former temples and shrines of Targus/Garagos that have been claimed by the faithful of Tempus and re-purposed for their use.
|
| Aldrick |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 17:34:51
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I think this is largely right, except maybe for #9. I would make it more along the lines of "the northern branch of the faith (Targus-worshipers) fade in number, and the "southern branch of the faith (Garagos-worshipers) rise in relative prominence, but overall the worship of Tempus soars. (And perhaps Tempus defeats Garagos and subjugates him concurrent with a battle in which Tempus-worshipers defeat Targus/Garagos-worshipers.)
--Eric
...but if I remember correctly the worship of Garagos/Targus had virtually died out entirely. The faith was essentially wiped out completely, and was only revived when a demon attempted to take up the mantle of Garagos in Westgate by impersonating the (then very much assumed to be dead) deity. Garagos then seemingly reappeared as a result, the demon was killed, and his faith returned to the Realms (centered around Westgate).
I believe this is how the faith of Garagos returned to the Realms. I will have to look up the sources, to confirm the exact details of the story.
Anyway, to my understanding the worship of Targus/Garagos had virtually died out. His faith seemed to have suffered largely the same fate as Amaunator. This makes sense as the cult of Tempus would be subsuming the faithful of Targus/Garagos into their own faith, and waging war on those who did not embrace him as the deity of war.
I imagine if you actually dig down deep on a very local level on some of the cults of Tempus, you will find remnants of old Targus/Garagos practices as part of the local orthopraxy. We would likely even discover former temples and shrines of Targus/Garagos that have been claimed by the faithful of Tempus and re-purposed for their use. |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 14:04:21
I think this is largely right, except maybe for #9. I would make it more along the lines of "the northern branch of the faith (Targus-worshipers) fade in number, and the "southern branch of the faith (Garagos-worshipers) rise in relative prominence, but overall the worship of Tempus soars. (And perhaps Tempus defeats Garagos and subjugates him concurrent with a battle in which Tempus-worshipers defeat Targus/Garagos-worshipers.)
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
My position on the Tempus and Garagos situation has always been the following.
1. Targus originated in the Netherese Pantheon.
2. Garagos was originally a separate deity whose worship was in the Westgate region (potentially a Jhaamdath deity? Unknown.).
3. Tempus was a Talfiric deity.
4. Jhaamdath falls, Garagos loses considerable amount of worshipers, becomes a minor power in the Realms. His base of worshipers become very regional.
5. Netheril falls. Targus worshipers migrate south after the fall, encountering Tempus and Garagos worshipers.
6. Targus worshipers wipe out the bulk of Garagos worshipers. Worship of Targus/Garagos becomes synonymous which is how he develops the alias. Similar events take place between Kozah, as his faithful defeat Talos of the Talfiric pantheon--ultimately assuming his name and identity.
7. Battles between the faithful of Targus/Garagos against Tempus of the Talfiric pantheon reach a tipping point and break in favor of Tempus. This begins gradual decline and destruction of the bulk of Targus/Garagos faithful as many begin the worship of Tempus as the primary war god of the emerging Faerunian Pantheon.
8. All of these events take place within the context of the Dawn Cataclysm--so named for Lathander's attempts to reshape the emerging proto-Faerunian Pantheon in his image, and his particular attempt to wipe out evil deities. The actual event was caused by the collapse of Jhaamdath, Netheril, and later Myth Drannor and the large refugee migrations that they caused. This in turn caused smaller regional human ethnic pantheons to begin merging together into the proto-Faerunian Pantheon.
9. Later, the worship of Garagos is revived around Westgate. The religion is bastardized due to its heavy intermingling between Targus/Garagos worshipers after the original Garagos' destruction. The deity that returns is the original Garagos, and not Targus of the Netherese Pantheon. However, he is in a much altered form than his original state, having many components of the worship of Targus due to the bastardization and close intermingling of the faiths after his original destruction.
I do not think there was a literal battle between Tempus and Targus/Garagos, just as I do not think the War of Light and Darkness involving Shar and Selune is literal. These are mortal interpretations and myths of what took place over the course of many years (decades, potentially even centuries). Not only that, they are events which happened hundreds if not thousands of years in the past. It is simply easier to understand and conceptualize in the form of easy to understand myths and legends. Deities did not actually come down into the Realms and start fighting it out between one another until the Time of Troubles, when Ao essentially altered the rules and shattered the Tablets of Fate.
|
| Aldrick |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 11:43:35
My position on the Tempus and Garagos situation has always been the following.
1. Targus originated in the Netherese Pantheon.
2. Garagos was originally a separate deity whose worship was in the Westgate region (potentially a Jhaamdath deity? Unknown.).
3. Tempus was a Talfiric deity.
4. Jhaamdath falls, Garagos loses considerable amount of worshipers, becomes a minor power in the Realms. His base of worshipers become very regional.
5. Netheril falls. Targus worshipers migrate south after the fall, encountering Tempus and Garagos worshipers.
6. Targus worshipers wipe out the bulk of Garagos worshipers. Worship of Targus/Garagos becomes synonymous which is how he develops the alias. Similar events take place between Kozah, as his faithful defeat Talos of the Talfiric pantheon--ultimately assuming his name and identity.
7. Battles between the faithful of Targus/Garagos against Tempus of the Talfiric pantheon reach a tipping point and break in favor of Tempus. This begins gradual decline and destruction of the bulk of Targus/Garagos faithful as many begin the worship of Tempus as the primary war god of the emerging Faerunian Pantheon.
8. All of these events take place within the context of the Dawn Cataclysm--so named for Lathander's attempts to reshape the emerging proto-Faerunian Pantheon in his image, and his particular attempt to wipe out evil deities. The actual event was caused by the collapse of Jhaamdath, Netheril, and later Myth Drannor and the large refugee migrations that they caused. This in turn caused smaller regional human ethnic pantheons to begin merging together into the proto-Faerunian Pantheon.
9. Later, the worship of Garagos is revived around Westgate. The religion is bastardized due to its heavy intermingling between Targus/Garagos worshipers after the original Garagos' destruction. The deity that returns is the original Garagos, and not Targus of the Netherese Pantheon. However, he is in a much altered form than his original state, having many components of the worship of Targus due to the bastardization and close intermingling of the faiths after his original destruction.
I do not think there was a literal battle between Tempus and Targus/Garagos, just as I do not think the War of Light and Darkness involving Shar and Selune is literal. These are mortal interpretations and myths of what took place over the course of many years (decades, potentially even centuries). Not only that, they are events which happened hundreds if not thousands of years in the past. It is simply easier to understand and conceptualize in the form of easy to understand myths and legends. Deities did not actually come down into the Realms and start fighting it out between one another until the Time of Troubles, when Ao essentially altered the rules and shattered the Tablets of Fate. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 03:57:14
I think [if memory serves me well enough] there might have been a slip of a bit about that too, in Powers and Pantheons. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 14:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Where is the mention of Garagos appearing during the ToT from, I must have missed it.
It was from the Cloak & Dagger web supplement. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 21:04:23
Because of the way he is depicted, for some reason I have always pictured him as being from the Utter East or beyond (in the truly 'Indianesque' region of lower K-T). Him and Savras (I know Savras came from Halruaa, but in my homebrew Utter East musings, I had it where he was born in the Utter East and was raised in Halruaa). They both just seem to have a more 'eastern' vibe going on.
I recall only one theory (over on the WotC boards) that I truly liked concerning Tempus and Garagos - I think it was one where they split-off from an earlier god, much the way Tymora & Beshaba did from Tyche. I think whoever came up with that even linked it to the Dawn Cataclysm. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 20:05:17
Where is the mention of Garagos appearing during the ToT from, I must have missed it.
I likewise think Garagos came first, he is a more primal aspect of war |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 19:49:03
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Tempus supposedly was born when Selune and Shar first fought. However his besting of Garagos and assumption of primary god of war could have resulted in this origin since Garagos may have been the one born when Selune and Shar first fought and so by beating Garagos Tempus essentially becomes him (until Garagos returns in 1368).
I have always maintained that it was Targus/Garagos who was born of the divine sisters' conflict.
Also, Garagos returned well before 1368 DR. His avatar manifested in the docks of Westgate during the Time of Troubles. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 19:22:04
I was hoping it would be the Talfir, and that you would pop along Eric.
It has been puzzling me about this for ages but was just sparked when I read it again.
I wonder if the lore we have got is not an interpretation of what people know about the gods now.
So perhaps Targus and Garagos were two separate beings, Garagos for Jhaamdath, and Targus for Netheril.
The Garagos writeup mentions that the new Garagos is different from ancient Garagos, he has less self control. So I'm thinking that the new Garagos is not actually the same as the old Garagos, it is actually Targus in disguise.
So the Talfirs live around the Western Heartlands worshipping their minor power Tempus (after the destruction of Thaeravel there are no Talfir nations at this time and the Talfir are not exactly known for their warlike prowess). Jhaamdath is destroyed and a wave of migrants move north to the Dragon Coast where they eventually move into the sphere of influence of the Talfir pantheon and cue big fight between Tempus and Garagos - Garagos loses and is killed.
Then sometime around 1368 DR, Targus' last remaining avatar is released and assumes Garagos' identity pretending to be him (after all no memory of Targus exists, but there are shrines dedicated to Garagos all over the former lands of Jhaamdath). I wonder what happened in 1368 that could have caused Garagos or Targus' return?
I have just had another idea (and I hope I don't hijack my own thread) that the Dawn Cataclysm may have actually been about the mingling of all pantheons into the Faerunian pantheon (Lathander forcing out the evil powers was just one part of that much larger event).
Jhaamdath pantheon moves north following -255 DR. Netherese pantheon moves into the savage frontier and the Moonsea after -339 DR.
The Talfir exist in the Western Heartlands, after a few hundred years the Netherese move down from the north, the Jhaamdath move west from the Dragon Coast and they all start to clash and you have cross pantheon worship, the beginning of contested regions and then full on mergers.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 18:47:50
Tempus with the Calishites? |
| ericlboyd |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 17:46:38
My original thought was that Tempus was a god of the Talfir.
Not sure if that still works or not.
--Eric |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2014 : 17:21:51
Tempus could have been the war god for another group of humans, or he could have been present in the same pantheon as Garagos, but with a lesser portfolio, and later gained enough power to grab War for himself. |
|
|
