| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 12:35:40
So going over this awesome book with a fine tooth comb and i have come across a bit of a major problem.
The Balance of Belaros was created by Belaros 4,000 years ago in his 66th Winter in the mountains along the northern border of Turmish.
That in itself isnt a problem until i mention that the Balance of Belaros is a holy artefact of Tyr and that upon completion Belaros is said to have met old Grimjaws himself.
So how did Tyr manage to appear in Toril 4,000 years before his church was established.
Several possibilities spring to mind.
1 - Tyr was an angelic servant of another god possibly on another plane that liked to travel to Toril where he met Belaros. Eventually Tyr gathered enough support and power for his crusade across the Vilhon Reach.
2 - The god known as Grimjaws, for whom this artefact was made was in fact Anachtyr and not Tyr who arrived later.
3 - Belaros travelled back in time and created the artefact before returning to the future to meet Tyr.
4 - Someone made a bit of a boo boo when coming up with the history of Tyr.
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| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 05 May 2015 : 08:48:14
Well i personally hated that all clerics automatically know every spell ever written, i think its daft.
In my own ruleset i have priests use a prayer book to prepare spells, little songs, poems, pieces of holy scripture all contain the information necessary to channel spells from the deity.
So a cleric, much like a wizard has access to a certain number of spells at his starting level (only from the players handbook), and during the courses of his development as a priest (either through adventuring, or via research and meditation), he finds or discovers new spells, such as the ones detailed in these relics. Finding such a relic gives you access to all the super secret holy spells of your deity that he bestows only upon the most worthy of servants (assuming of course you go for the idea that the deities have a hand in anything their worshippers do, i personally think they couldnt give a t*ss and that some powerful practitioner just created the relic because he had a dream about it, the deity may or may not have had anything to do with it).
Given that these relics are from Ed, and Ed's campaigns work differently to DnD (they dont use the same ruleset), it is likely that priests in Ed's world do not instantly know every spell ever devised that is appropriate to their level (which means you can use spells as treasure). |
| dragonfriend |
Posted - 05 May 2015 : 06:31:18
After all this interesting discussion, how do these magical tomes work? I can't understand why churches have magical books with spells. Everything in "prayers from the faithful" seem strange. Thanks. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 20:48:07
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I suppose it makes more sense for a Jhaamdathi god to be psionic in nature and so Iltyr would be more like a brain in a jar, but instead of in a jar, he is in some weird floating orb with a big eye and a tail (not sure about the far realm link though).
I definitely wont be using option 3 for Gruumsh i'm afraid because it involves the spellplague and thats a dirty word (kinda like star wars episode I the Phantom Menace being a dirty word for star wars fans) and doesnt count as FR for me.
So Iltyr would look like a Grell combined with a Beholder? Perhaps it is a more primitive form of the two (that they were one race once, in the misty past), like an ancient 'missing link'?
That could have been one of the deities subsumed by the conjoined god, and the aberrations still worshiped that aspect of it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 20:45:31
Okay, not to offend you with the 'dirty word', but I like the idea of Talos being some sort of twisted, wretched, constantly-in-pain composite being. Perhaps he got that way through some sort of divine accident (or punishment?) Whatever the case me be, thats a great piece of lore that could fix a lot of things...
So lets say at some point in time 2 or more 'gods of destruction' got together and had it out, and something happened (one can assume their may have been other spellplage-like events in Toril's past), and the gods became fused... and quite insane. Then the Spellplague hits and the two (or more) are torn back apart, and continue their battle.
Now, if one of those avatars was Gruumsh's - a Greater manifestation (self-aware Avatar) he had sent to Toril thousands of years earlier (perhaps during The Battle of God's theater?) - and the 'real' Gruumsh was now on Toril after coming through the Orcgate (because the Imaskari Godwall was now down, and deities could interlope freely then), then it would make some sense for Gruumsh-prime to re-merge with his 'long lost' avatar and destroy the other deity, usurping is power and giving him immediate legitimacy in Faerūn.
The only problem with all that is that there was good deal of time between all these events - thousands of years. So now I'm thinking it wasn't the Spellplague that destroyed Talos - he was already gone for quite awhile, probably since the Orcgate wars? What if Gruumsh detected that missing piece of himself, and merged with it? Or better yet, "called it forth", causing the composite deity talos to literally explode.
Unless Gruumsh was unaware Talos contained a missing bit of him, and didn't do anything about Talos until the Spellplague hit and separated the two (which was my originally thinking). That would explain how Orcs were around and active on Toril fr tens of thousands of years before Gruumsh entered the Sphere (because he used to be there, but then 'lost himself', so to speak).
But whatever, I like the idea that Talos was a composite being, because it fixes some snafus, and then we can have our cake and eat it too (he was always Talos... but not exactly). Nice lore, Slevas.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 08:45:10
I suppose it makes more sense for a Jhaamdathi god to be psionic in nature and so Iltyr would be more like a brain in a jar, but instead of in a jar, he is in some weird floating orb with a big eye and a tail (not sure about the far realm link though).
I definitely wont be using option 3 for Gruumsh i'm afraid because it involves the spellplague and thats a dirty word (kinda like star wars episode I the Phantom Menace being a dirty word for star wars fans) and doesnt count as FR for me. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 00:38:12
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So here is the answer to Tyr from Ed and THO. I'm just glad it doesnt involve anything to do with earth Tyr, those earth/Faerun cross overs of gods are just messy and annoying.
quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
Take from it what you will. I will be going with the idea of several different Tyr's all vying for the same deityhood.
Tyr must be a translation of some deific true name for justice giver or something like that.
So we have Arrtyr, Achanatyr, and Anachtyr all vying for the portfolio of justice way back in the past.
Iltyr definitely sounds like a beholder to me. The fact that he has beholder worshippers also makes me suspect. I reckon Iltyr promoted an aspect of rigid justice through strict adherence to the laws at around the time the Jhaamdath was descending into its nasty age with plenty of persecution and other evil things.
So maybe Belaros coming from the Lake of Steam was actually being duped by Iltyr. He went on a pilgrimage north to the Vilhon Reach/Jhaamdath area to preach about this new god of justice and forged a sacred relic to prove his god was most powerful.
He gets enough worshippers to make Iltyr an actual god, Iltyr spanks all the other Tyr variants in Jhaamdath (justice can take many forms so why not allow many justice gods). After Jhaamdath falls and the various gods of justice are gone the beholder god also dies (because beholders dont really worship gods all that well and all his human worshippers are gone). Anachtyr it seems survived in Calimshan for a bit although was probably very weak because Calimshan is not known for being a fair and just society. He uses his last vestiges of power to send an avatar and his divine servants on a parade of righting wrongs throughout the Vilhon Reach area and is reborn as the singular god of justice.
The dates actually match up sort of okay.
-2387 DR three beholder colony ships land in the Alimir Mountains and conquer Calimshan.
This is almost in the right time for Belaros (about 300 years short) of 4,000 years ago (discounting the apocryphal 4e time jump). So its entirely possible that Belaros met a beholder that called himself Iltyr masquerading as a god of justice.
The beholders in the Lake of Steam vie with Calimshan for centuries.
In -1080 DR the beholders of the Lake of Steam are driven underground.
Then in -990 DR there are rumours of the Jhaamdath empire spreading plague in Calimshan.
Shortly after Jhaamdath's destruction in -275 DR the beholders reappear in the lake of Steam again.
Maybe the beholders were using the god Iltyr (who was secretly a beholder) to amass worshippers in Jhaamdath that could be used against Calimshan.
As an aside and an exercise in play on words. We have Arrtyr which means "all justice" so he probably represents the over arching concept of justice. Achanatyr which means "Sword of justice" and so probably represents the execution of justice. Anachtyr then could mean "Words of justice" (i just moved the order of words around for sword) so he probably represents written laws. Iltyr may have passed himself off as the god of justice absolute (so obey the laws above else) but illtyr could mean ill justice making him actually a god of vigilantism or personal justice.
In fact after Iltyr removed the other gods of justice it would have been appropriate if he in turn was destroyed by Valigorn the god of Anarchy towards the end of Jhaamdath.
Anyways i appear to have let my brain run wild there for a few minutes sorry about that, i'm going to go and sit down.
Bear in mind this.... Iltyr doesn't necessarily sound like a beholder. Sure, he's got a giant eye.... but its entirely black... it doesn't mention anything about eyestalks.... and he has a prehensile tail. Plus, he's got what sounds like some kind of psionic/telepathic abilities. What if his body is some kind of Primordial from the Far Realm.... but his mind is that of an avatar of a deity of justice who in his "dying action" left his godly husk behind and "infected"/possessed the primordial being. Perhaps this deity did this because he knew he couldn't destroy the primordial, but if he could quell his ability to destroy others.... it would be the JUST thing to do. This avatar stuck in the body of a primordial took on the name "Iltyr" as it was separated now from its own godly essence.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 00:26:04
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
I'm thinking that your 4th option is probably the correct one - especially considering the next given date: 1101 DR. I'm thinking that it's far more likely that the Balance was created 400 years ago.
The earliest reference I've been able to find for Tyr is -284 DR so we know that he was being worshiped in Faerūn (the reference refers to the Marching Mountains) before the Procession of Justice, but a relic being created for him during the Silver Age of Netheril? Unlikely.
Just a note, we got a somewhat clear answer from Ed. It doesn't explicitly say option 2 or option 4 (i.e. it was either Tyr, or Anachtyr, or Achanatyr, or Arrtyr, or another name). We know that later when he's called for the Procession of Tyr (notedly, from the same location where the balance was made), that he's known as Tyr and that his symbol becomes a balance similar to the balance of belagos situated upon a hammer. We do also get a deity for the Jhaamdathi pantheon, though which name he was called by is unclear.
*********Below answer from Ed via THO********
dazzerdal and sleyvas, Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
So saith Ed, illuminating a tiny glimpse of the dim past of the Realms.
love to all,
THO
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 00:17:00
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
This one isnt a problem, it actually reinforces a 4e idea (yuck) although one that i kind of like.
The idea of Talos being Gruumsh in disguise.
So there is this quote from Prayers From the Faithful
quote:
The Chanting Chain first appears in Realmslore at the Great Bazaar of the Master of the Gargoyles in 633 DR, held in the western Shaar. There it was exhibited as a holy thing for adherents of Bhaelros (Talos) to revere. Its keeper then was the wild-eyed Tothur, Holy Hurler of Lightnings, a self-styled Storm Prophet who challenged the existing hierarchy of the church of Talosand was promptly branded an insane heretic.
Over the next two centuries, Tothur (obviously enjoying at least some divine support), battled the orthodox Talassan clergy, employing the chain on several occasions as a sort of spellhurling ally. He alone, it seems, could call forth spells from the holy item without need of six chanting assistants, or any prayer or any study. It is also clear that the Storm Prophet magically prolonged his life, though his means of doing so are not recorded. By means of a secret ritual, Tothur claimed to be able to empower devout followers of the Destroyer with living lightning, which enabled them to fly about and hurl bolts of lightning at will for short periods (although it drank their life-force at the same time). If this claim is true, the ritual is now lost, though the stormrage spell contained in the chain may be one of its lesser forms.
Whatever his true power and nature, the Storm Prophet gained many followers among the nomadic tribes of the Shaar and the smaller villages of the Tashalar, and it is certain that many of these followers exhibited such minor masteries of lightning-magic from time to time. This all ended at Kormul in 888 DR, when Tothur perished in the Struggle of Storms, slaying over 40 Talassan archpriests and shattering the power of the church of Talos in Faerūn for three centuries.
So i'm thinking that either Bhaelros is Gruumsh, and he empowered his new prophet to battle away with the church of Talos, destroyed most of his devout worshippers and secretly weaknening Talos enough so that he could march in and destroy him in person and steal his power.
The only problem is that all this took place in the Shaar and Gruumsh doesnt exactly have many followers in the Shaar and probably doesnt know anything about it.
So second scenario is that Talos is Gruumsh and always has been, and a number of upstart gods have appeared over the millennia to challenge his power (The Shaar may well have had a different pantheon of influence to the north of Faerun). Bhaelros was just the latest usurper trying his luck.
He annihilates the church of Talos using his prophet and moves in for the kill (i.e. he wanders into Talos' home plane and tries to kill him). Only then does the poor dolt realise that Talos is actually the head of the orcish pantheon and still extremely powerful, even with most of his human devout worshippers dead.
Talos kills Bhaelros and takes the power from Bhaelros' worshippers and then rebuilds his church again, not caring a whit for the human priests because this is all just a massive ploy of his to have the humans destroy themselves.
I'm going with option 3)
Gruumsh lied in claiming to have "always" been Talos. Talos was some kind of composite deity created by the deaths of multiple gods and/or their avatars (one of which was an avatar of Gruumsh). Something happened to Talos during the spellplague, and Gruumsh swooped in to masquerade as him (he felt Talos go away due to the linkage to his previous avatar). My preference would be that the "something" that happened had something to do with Entropy becoming active, and that there was some linkage between Talos and Entropy (note, I'm not throwing out the whole Pandorym linkage either to Entropy). We know that the "elder evil" that was Pandorym was split by the Imaskari into a giant sphere of annihilation and the crystal prison that held its mind (and we know the people of Durpar have been mining that crystal to make plangents). My personal belief is that that giant sphere of annihilation and Entropy were one in the same.
How does this involve Talos? Its also my personal belief that the Theurgist Adepts who rebelled against Mulhorand and were discoverers of ancient Imaskari lore also learned of Entropy/Pandorym and that the deaths of some deities during the Orcgate wars involved Entropy/Pandorym and the Theurgist Adepts aiding the orc gods. Some gods were swallowed (and perhaps even an avatar of Gruumsh), and this led to the formation of Talos as the mindless thing known as Entropy was instilled with the divine energy of what it had absorbed. You could probably spin it many ways, but I'm thinking the best way is that the "divine energy" created a new being comprised of the maddening thoughts of multiple deities, and that Talos fled Entropy in order to survive.... but that he was also instilled with Entropy's want to destroy. Talos then assaulted and took over other deities of natural destruction (Bhaelros, Kozah, etc...) who threatened him and finally made alliances with a few other deities rather than kill them.
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| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 21:44:03
There are only two in Prayers of the Faithful unfortunately but the Ghost Holds are a great place to adventure in general. If my players ever come closer to Battledale I'm going to make sure they end up exploring a Ghost Hold. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 15:34:48
I had completely forgotten about Gruumsh arriving in person in the south. That might explain why Gruumsh as Bhaelros had that chain crafted and sent his prophet on an orgy of destruction that annihilated the church of Talos for 3 centuries (he must have done some damage).
Gruumsh could then insinuate himself into the Talosian church and quietly bump him off in the outer planes and no one would even notice.
I really hate the unmasking of various gods as other gods. Except for Gruumsh, it actually makes perfect sense for the orcish god to masquerade as the human god of destruction and secretly get the stupid humans to kill themselves.
And in the Netheril thread i started i had a theory that a reptilian deity might have done the same with Kozah to try and kill the Netherese.
I have had somet thoughts about the Talfiric pantheon given all the sourcebooks i have read and re-read and catalogued in the past 3 years, but i'm going to leave that for a separate thread cos i can see it quickly bogging down this one if i mention it here.
Oh and how many holy relics get recovered from the Ghost Holds of Battledale (i found two so far and i'm not even halfway through the book). If ever you want the players to find an important item you should put it there. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 13:24:26
Personally, I went in a whole 'nother direction with all of this:
In ancient times, 'Anach' was a giant (Anoch, get it?) or half-giant who revered the more ancient deities of the Giantish Pantheon, including Annam's one-eyed aspect, The All-father. He became a paladin of that pantheon, and upon his death ascended and took-on the mantle of Anach-Tyr in The Realms (because the Realms did not have an aspect of Tyr, the justice-bringer). Starting-out as a little known giantish demi-power of justice, Anchtyr eventually worked his way up the divine ladder, became known by other races, and is now know as Tyr (who is not precisely the same being as Earth's Tyr, but based on him through their mutual relationship with the giantish/Norse pantheon).
So, 'Tyr' as Tyr perhaps did not exist 4000 years ago, but the being that would become known as Tyr did. It could have been the Jhaamdathi who were the first human worshipers - considering that human/giantish crossbreeds are all psionic. He may have also been worshiped by the Talfir (he seems to be the type of god that would have been revered by that culture). Regardless, at some point humans picked-up his worship, and his name was shortened to Tyr. Note also that the Imaskari were well aware of the Norse pantheon, along with all the other 'Earth' ones, so knowledge of Tyr on Toril would date back to them... which is odd, since the Imaskari themselves pre-dated many of Earth's pantheons. I would chalk it up to the odd nature of 'temporal anomolaies' when the used their gates, but I'd rather think what they actually had was records of more primal aspects of these pantheons (so instead of 'Odin', they would have known about 'Woten', etc).
As for the other things - I have found large numbers of Orcs and other goblinoids in The Shaar (especially if you factor-in that Elsir Vale is really the Shaareach area). They do not play as prominent a role as the do in the North, mostly for the reason that just about everyone in the Shaar is considered 'a barbarian' (including the Shaaran humans, elves, Hin, loxo, etc, etc, etc). Down there, the Orcs are just one more group of many who live in much the same hunter/gatherer culture.
I think Talos may have come in the Shaar region in Faerūn, but was another deity from the Indianesque cultures further SE (in the Malatra region and the Yehimals - perhaps brought into the Shaar by the early dwarves). I think when Gruumsh first entered Realmspace (through the Orc gates), he challenged, killed, and took Talos' portfolios from him. Normally when a deity first enters a new sphere they are under-powered and must establish themselves, yet Gruumsh seemed at full-power (which could also be explained by the millions of Orcs pouring through the Gates) when he took-on the Pharonic Pantheon. Thus, the Faerūnian version of Gruumsh is an aspect of the archtype merged with a local god (I think MOST gods are like that when they are multispheric). This is how we get "this deity is really another aspect of that deity... but not quite" we see so often. New gods are formed all the times by bits and pieces of others.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 12:18:03
Interesting.
The last statement could be read as an accusation rather than a rebuke.
"Who hath told thee that the Grand Patriarch hath fallen?"
In which case you could spin it that he has been converted by another faith |
| Demzer |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 11:56:57
From Ed on the Grand Patriarch (sorry can't remember the year of the Ask Ed thread, the following is taken from my copy-pasted file of Ed-given Realmslore):
The church of Oghma DOESN'T know what happened to their Grand Patriarch and that hes stilla live after all this time, other than "he stands in the favor of Oghma." Which has been interpreted by some to mean he died heroically in service to the deity, by others that he was rewarded by being taken to another plane or into another body to continue to serve the god, and has led to a wild variety of other interpretations by yet other Oghmanites / Oghmanytes / Oghrann. All the priests alive today know is that their Grand Patriarch disappeared, and that the god does not desire them to appoint a new one.
When some of the more ambitious upperpriests of the faith prayed to the deity for personal guidance re. running the church, one of them used the wording "tell us WHY we should not replace our Grand Patriarch who has fallen" and received a thunderous divine reply/rebuke: "Who hath told thee the Grand Patriarch is fallen?!?" |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 11:54:13
Sounds like fairly solid speculation to me. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 11:49:37
Eh, kind of a wild speculation here but i think Tyr got "public recognition" and acceptance in the ranks of the wider Faerunian pantheon only after the end of the Kezef affair and the Procession of Justice.
To elaborate:
- Tyr is present in the Realms since about -3500 something in one guise or another in one or more regional pantheons;
- Jergal creates Kezef during the Netheril era;
- Jergal regrets/reconsiders his unleashing of Kezef and starts working on his pet 3 godlings side-project;
- Netheril falls, Jhaamdath falls, the deities of all the pantheons clash and merge, Tyr helps the other powers chain and bind Kezef and they admit him into the Faerunina Godly Club with reserved parking and all that jazz.
This would explain why it's said he gained status and public renown after the drowning of Jhaamdath: he was already present, but only with localized worship, once he proved useful to the divine family of the wider Realms they let his deeds and his faithful into their dominated areas. This would even help explain why a supposedly interloper deity like Tyr could raise to godhood a mortal (Torm) before ascending/ gaining recognition in the Realms (first mention of Torm is in the Adama in -256, note that he's listed as Torm, not some other name, and the Procession of Justice took place between -247 and -238). Since the regions of Torm's ascension (Southern Lake of Steam/Border Kingdoms) and Tyr regional aspects' worship (Calimshan, Lake of Steam, Border Kingdoms, Western Shaar) overlap everything fits better. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 11:40:00
Encountered the Key of Faith, a holy relic of Oghma and i duly catalogued it in Oghma's writeup whereupon i read about the disappearance of the Grand Patriarch of Oghma.
This being was the head of the church of Oghma and he disappeared in 1358 during the Time of Troubles. Oghma has provided conflicting and vague explanations for his disappearance and since then there has been no head of the Oghman church and it is splitting into factions.
So who is this Grand Patriarch, why doesnt the church or Oghma just select a new one.
When i read about it i suddenly got the image of an immortal wizened old being (man or woman) constantly reading books and scrolls and cataloguing everything.
I dont know why i imagined that but i do wonder if the guy is essentially ageless and a new grand patriarch can only be selected on his death, and since Oghma doesnt know whats happened to him (why else would he give conflicting information to his priests) then they cant elect a new head.
The Key of Faith writeup does indicate that there were other Patriarchs (a title i notice that doesnt exist in normal Oghman clergy hierarchy) but it doesnt say if this is the same as a grand patriarch or not.
I would be inclined to think Patriarch and Grand Patriarch are the same since leaders of temples in the traditional hierarchy of Oghma's church are not called Patriarchs which means it must be a special title and probably a singular title - i.e. there can be only one (note this does not include the newly arisen factions in Oghma's church which do call temple leaders Patriarch, but they are probably doing so because they back the idea that a new Grand Patriarch has been chosen by Oghma and they want it to be them).
So who is/was the Grand Patriarch, where is he now, how/why did he disappear? Anyone have any ideas/answers. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 11:11:11
Well i've read all the topics about Tyr coming from earth many many times and i never did agree with them. Ed simply said earth Tyr was his inspiration, not that they are the same.
Nothing in Ed's recent quote suggests that Achanatyr, Anachtyr, Iltyrr, or Arrtyr have anything to do with earth so i see no reason to carry on with that assumption because of a similarity in names.
Tyr as he is now could be an amalgamation of all the x-Tyr gods Ed just mention. he may just have merged with Anachtyr, or may be Anachtyr himself.
Tyr could have been a god that briefly interloped into Faerun and was promptly killed by all the other Tyr's.
Since Ed stated Tyr has existed for at least 5000 years ago, the northmen (which are probably the norse interlopers) didnt arrive (as far as we know) in Faerun until -3100 DR which is at least 500 years too late for Tyr to be the earth Tyr.
I just think given the most recent info from Ed, the likelihood of FR Tyr being Earth Tyr is now improbable and basing an assumption on names being similar and them both having 1 hand isnt the best proof of a link. The Realms and Earth have many parallels (both have cats and dogs, and humans, and the wheel and writing and swords and trade). Does it mean they all come from the same source or could it be that humans all over the imaginary universe think in the same way and the same ideas develop over and over again.
Anyway rant over, i dont know why i got so agitated over it i just really get irked when someone comes along and says that actually such and such a god is from earth. Sorry if i came across as harsh. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 10:38:36
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Tyr must be a translation of some deific true name for justice giver or something like that.
So you did not look up '+Tyr +Baldur'? 
Here it goes. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 08:59:55
So here is the answer to Tyr from Ed and THO. I'm just glad it doesnt involve anything to do with earth Tyr, those earth/Faerun cross overs of gods are just messy and annoying.
quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
Take from it what you will. I will be going with the idea of several different Tyr's all vying for the same deityhood.
Tyr must be a translation of some deific true name for justice giver or something like that.
So we have Arrtyr, Achanatyr, and Anachtyr all vying for the portfolio of justice way back in the past.
Iltyr definitely sounds like a beholder to me. The fact that he has beholder worshippers also makes me suspect. I reckon Iltyr promoted an aspect of rigid justice through strict adherence to the laws at around the time the Jhaamdath was descending into its nasty age with plenty of persecution and other evil things.
So maybe Belaros coming from the Lake of Steam was actually being duped by Iltyr. He went on a pilgrimage north to the Vilhon Reach/Jhaamdath area to preach about this new god of justice and forged a sacred relic to prove his god was most powerful.
He gets enough worshippers to make Iltyr an actual god, Iltyr spanks all the other Tyr variants in Jhaamdath (justice can take many forms so why not allow many justice gods). After Jhaamdath falls and the various gods of justice are gone the beholder god also dies (because beholders dont really worship gods all that well and all his human worshippers are gone). Anachtyr it seems survived in Calimshan for a bit although was probably very weak because Calimshan is not known for being a fair and just society. He uses his last vestiges of power to send an avatar and his divine servants on a parade of righting wrongs throughout the Vilhon Reach area and is reborn as the singular god of justice.
The dates actually match up sort of okay.
-2387 DR three beholder colony ships land in the Alimir Mountains and conquer Calimshan.
This is almost in the right time for Belaros (about 300 years short) of 4,000 years ago (discounting the apocryphal 4e time jump). So its entirely possible that Belaros met a beholder that called himself Iltyr masquerading as a god of justice.
The beholders in the Lake of Steam vie with Calimshan for centuries.
In -1080 DR the beholders of the Lake of Steam are driven underground.
Then in -990 DR there are rumours of the Jhaamdath empire spreading plague in Calimshan.
Shortly after Jhaamdath's destruction in -275 DR the beholders reappear in the lake of Steam again.
Maybe the beholders were using the god Iltyr (who was secretly a beholder) to amass worshippers in Jhaamdath that could be used against Calimshan.
As an aside and an exercise in play on words. We have Arrtyr which means "all justice" so he probably represents the over arching concept of justice. Achanatyr which means "Sword of justice" and so probably represents the execution of justice. Anachtyr then could mean "Words of justice" (i just moved the order of words around for sword) so he probably represents written laws. Iltyr may have passed himself off as the god of justice absolute (so obey the laws above else) but illtyr could mean ill justice making him actually a god of vigilantism or personal justice.
In fact after Iltyr removed the other gods of justice it would have been appropriate if he in turn was destroyed by Valigorn the god of Anarchy towards the end of Jhaamdath.
Anyways i appear to have let my brain run wild there for a few minutes sorry about that, i'm going to go and sit down.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 10:10:08
Well the question is asked so we just have to wait for an answer. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 02:13:51
I recall a discussion on the old Realms-L re this product when it came out, but don't think the "4000 years" topic was raised. It would certainly be neater if the 4000 years was a typo and actually 400 years, but as I recall, that spellbook may mention 'other' names for Tyr (hmm, or am I confusing it with the 'books' for Talos and Silvanus?). Tyr joined the Faerunian pantheon, which I always considered to have formed over a couple of centuries after the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath. In doing so, I always thought that this pantheon absorbed a host of lesser, localised regional deities of the various aspects of worship (nature, sun, moon, darkness, death, justice et. al.) and that this reference can be explained away on that basis. I'd love for Ed to provide some clarity here, why doesn't someone head over to his thread and let THO know?
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 21:52:10
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Balance of Belaros was created by Belaros 4,000 years ago in his 66th Winter in the mountains along the northern border of Turmish.
That in itself isnt a problem until i mention that the Balance of Belaros is a holy artefact of Tyr and that upon completion Belaros is said to have met old Grimjaws himself.
So how did Tyr manage to appear in Toril 4,000 years before his church was established.
1) to have "church established", he should have some followers first.
2) Was Belaros "said to" have met him on Toril?
3) How much "said to" on the events of a few millenia is worth, usually?
quote:
Several possibilities spring to mind.
1 - Tyr was
Uh... You know where Tyr came from, right? If not, hint: the same place as Baldur.
I strongly favor the explanation that Tyr was around and simply didn't have enough followers for a formalized church to exist. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 17:33:48
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical p123 states that at least six Witch-Lords are still around. Four liches and two demiliches. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 16:24:16
Found something about the Crystrum of Tranquility that might be linked to the Witch Lords of Cormyr.
quote:
Repeated monster attacks upon the Eldathyn community who held the Crystrum finally forced the faithful of the Green Goddess to flee across the Thunder Peaks into Hullack Forest in Cormyr, where the ranger Eldrum the Silent saw it in the spring of 989 DR, and reported every one of the details he could discover in his diaries, as he so meticulously described everything in his travels. At that time the keeper of the Crystrum was the Eldathyn priestess Analauthé Brenewoodshe who later sacrificed herself in a ritual that purified the Wyvernwater after the cruel experimentation of the necromancer Elgarth of Westgate released a creeping death rot into its waters.
The Witch Lords were driven into the Vast Swamp in 900 DR according to the GHoTR. It says the Cormyreans are granted a decisive victory but that does not imply that the Witch Lords are destroyed.
Maybe this Elgarth of Westgate was a Witch Lord, his necromantic leanings are certainly in line with the Witch Lords, and the dates are in the same century. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 16:17:54
Thats a shame i actually prefer option 3, 1, and 2 in that order. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 16:00:34
I'm thinking that your 4th option is probably the correct one - especially considering the next given date: 1101 DR. I'm thinking that it's far more likely that the Balance was created 400 years ago.
The earliest reference I've been able to find for Tyr is -284 DR so we know that he was being worshiped in Faerūn (the reference refers to the Marching Mountains) before the Procession of Justice, but a relic being created for him during the Silver Age of Netheril? Unlikely. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 13:46:04
So Tyr comes from the Western Heartlands as well. Is there anyone that doesnt come from there
I dont really bother with planets outside of Toril so for me he comes from ?, that way i'm not tied down to whatever real world information we have on him.
Even if Belaros didnt meet Grimjaws himself, it still establishes worshippers of a god of justice over 4,000 years ago.
Given the time period though (-3000 DR onwards) Toril at that time wasnt a very just place. Calimshan, Netheril, Jhaamdath, Narfell, Raumathar, Unther, Mulhorand.
All those empires rose sometime after -3000 DR and all of them performed evil acts or were downright evil empires.
I wouldnt be surprised to hear that the god of justice in that time period just dropped what he was doing and said "right, im off, if you guys cant be nice then i quit"
Maybe Anachtyr merely means "Not Tyr" because no one today can remember his name (or he expunged his name from everyone's thoughts, because he was so ashamed of humanity). |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 13:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Balance of Belaros was created by Belaros 4,000 years ago in his 66th Winter in the mountains along the northern border of Turmish.
That in itself isnt a problem until i mention that the Balance of Belaros is a holy artefact of Tyr and that upon completion Belaros is said to have met old Grimjaws himself.
So how did Tyr manage to appear in Toril 4,000 years before his church was established.
1) to have "church established", he should have some followers first.
2) Was Belaros "said to" have met him on Toril?
3) How much "said to" on the events of a few millenia is worth, usually?
quote:
Several possibilities spring to mind.
1 - Tyr was
Uh... You know where Tyr came from, right? If not, hint: the same place as Baldur. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 12:50:10
This one isnt a problem, it actually reinforces a 4e idea (yuck) although one that i kind of like.
The idea of Talos being Gruumsh in disguise.
So there is this quote from Prayers From the Faithful
quote:
The Chanting Chain first appears in Realmslore at the Great Bazaar of the Master of the Gargoyles in 633 DR, held in the western Shaar. There it was exhibited as a holy thing for adherents of Bhaelros (Talos) to revere. Its keeper then was the wild-eyed Tothur, Holy Hurler of Lightnings, a self-styled Storm Prophet who challenged the existing hierarchy of the church of Talosand was promptly branded an insane heretic.
Over the next two centuries, Tothur (obviously enjoying at least some divine support), battled the orthodox Talassan clergy, employing the chain on several occasions as a sort of spellhurling ally. He alone, it seems, could call forth spells from the holy item without need of six chanting assistants, or any prayer or any study. It is also clear that the Storm Prophet magically prolonged his life, though his means of doing so are not recorded. By means of a secret ritual, Tothur claimed to be able to empower devout followers of the Destroyer with living lightning, which enabled them to fly about and hurl bolts of lightning at will for short periods (although it drank their life-force at the same time). If this claim is true, the ritual is now lost, though the stormrage spell contained in the chain may be one of its lesser forms.
Whatever his true power and nature, the Storm Prophet gained many followers among the nomadic tribes of the Shaar and the smaller villages of the Tashalar, and it is certain that many of these followers exhibited such minor masteries of lightning-magic from time to time. This all ended at Kormul in 888 DR, when Tothur perished in the Struggle of Storms, slaying over 40 Talassan archpriests and shattering the power of the church of Talos in Faerūn for three centuries.
So i'm thinking that either Bhaelros is Gruumsh, and he empowered his new prophet to battle away with the church of Talos, destroyed most of his devout worshippers and secretly weaknening Talos enough so that he could march in and destroy him in person and steal his power.
The only problem is that all this took place in the Shaar and Gruumsh doesnt exactly have many followers in the Shaar and probably doesnt know anything about it.
So second scenario is that Talos is Gruumsh and always has been, and a number of upstart gods have appeared over the millennia to challenge his power (The Shaar may well have had a different pantheon of influence to the north of Faerun). Bhaelros was just the latest usurper trying his luck.
He annihilates the church of Talos using his prophet and moves in for the kill (i.e. he wanders into Talos' home plane and tries to kill him). Only then does the poor dolt realise that Talos is actually the head of the orcish pantheon and still extremely powerful, even with most of his human devout worshippers dead.
Talos kills Bhaelros and takes the power from Bhaelros' worshippers and then rebuilds his church again, not caring a whit for the human priests because this is all just a massive ploy of his to have the humans destroy themselves. |
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