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The Chanting Chain first appears in Realmslore at the Great Bazaar of the Master of the Gargoyles in 633 DR, held in the western Shaar. There it was exhibited as a holy thing for adherents of Bhaelros (Talos) to revere. Its keeper then was the wild-eyed Tothur, Holy Hurler of Lightnings, a self-styled “Storm Prophet” who challenged the existing hierarchy of the church of Talos—and was promptly branded an insane heretic.
Over the next two centuries, Tothur (obviously enjoying at least some divine support), battled the orthodox Talassan clergy, employing the chain on several occasions as a sort of spellhurling ally. He alone, it seems, could call forth spells from the holy item without need of six chanting assistants, or any prayer or any study. It is also clear that the Storm Prophet magically prolonged his life, though his means of doing so are not recorded. By means of a secret ritual, Tothur claimed to be able to empower devout followers of the Destroyer with “living lightning,” which enabled them to fly about and hurl bolts of lightning at will for short periods (although it drank their life-force at the same time). If this claim is true, the ritual is now lost, though the stormrage spell contained in the chain may be one of its lesser forms.
Whatever his true power and nature, the Storm Prophet gained many followers among the nomadic tribes of the Shaar and the smaller villages of the Tashalar, and it is certain that many of these followers exhibited such minor masteries of lightning-magic from time to time. This all ended at Kormul in 888 DR, when Tothur perished in the Struggle of Storms, slaying over 40 Talassan archpriests and shattering the power of the church of Talos in Faerūn for three centuries.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The Balance of Belaros was created by Belaros 4,000 years ago in his 66th Winter in the mountains along the northern border of Turmish.

That in itself isnt a problem until i mention that the Balance of Belaros is a holy artefact of Tyr and that upon completion Belaros is said to have met old Grimjaws himself.

So how did Tyr manage to appear in Toril 4,000 years before his church was established.

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Several possibilities spring to mind.

1 - Tyr was

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Repeated monster attacks upon the Eldathyn community who held the Crystrum finally forced the faithful of the Green Goddess to flee across the Thunder Peaks into Hullack Forest in Cormyr, where the ranger Eldrum the Silent saw it in the spring of 989 DR, and reported every one of the details he could discover in his diaries, as he so meticulously described everything in his travels. At that time the keeper of the Crystrum was the Eldathyn priestess Analauthé Brenewood—she who later sacrificed herself in a ritual that purified the Wyvernwater after the cruel experimentation of the necromancer Elgarth of Westgate released a creeping “death rot” into its waters.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The Balance of Belaros was created by Belaros 4,000 years ago in his 66th Winter in the mountains along the northern border of Turmish.

That in itself isnt a problem until i mention that the Balance of Belaros is a holy artefact of Tyr and that upon completion Belaros is said to have met old Grimjaws himself.

So how did Tyr manage to appear in Toril 4,000 years before his church was established.

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1) to have "church established", he should have some followers first.
2) Was Belaros "said to" have met him on Toril?
3) How much "said to" on the events of a few millenia is worth, usually?

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Several possibilities spring to mind.

1 - Tyr was

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Uh... You know where Tyr came from, right? If not, hint: the same place as Baldur.

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Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Tyr must be a translation of some deific true name for justice giver or something like that.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

This one isnt a problem, it actually reinforces a 4e idea (yuck) although one that i kind of like.

The idea of Talos being Gruumsh in disguise.


So there is this quote from Prayers From the Faithful

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The Chanting Chain first appears in Realmslore at the Great Bazaar of the Master of the Gargoyles in 633 DR, held in the western Shaar. There it was exhibited as a holy thing for adherents of Bhaelros (Talos) to revere. Its keeper then was the wild-eyed Tothur, Holy Hurler of Lightnings, a self-styled “Storm Prophet” who challenged the existing hierarchy of the church of Talos—and was promptly branded an insane heretic.
Over the next two centuries, Tothur (obviously enjoying at least some divine support), battled the orthodox Talassan clergy, employing the chain on several occasions as a sort of spellhurling ally. He alone, it seems, could call forth spells from the holy item without need of six chanting assistants, or any prayer or any study. It is also clear that the Storm Prophet magically prolonged his life, though his means of doing so are not recorded. By means of a secret ritual, Tothur claimed to be able to empower devout followers of the Destroyer with “living lightning,” which enabled them to fly about and hurl bolts of lightning at will for short periods (although it drank their life-force at the same time). If this claim is true, the ritual is now lost, though the stormrage spell contained in the chain may be one of its lesser forms.
Whatever his true power and nature, the Storm Prophet gained many followers among the nomadic tribes of the Shaar and the smaller villages of the Tashalar, and it is certain that many of these followers exhibited such minor masteries of lightning-magic from time to time. This all ended at Kormul in 888 DR, when Tothur perished in the Struggle of Storms, slaying over 40 Talassan archpriests and shattering the power of the church of Talos in Faerūn for three centuries.

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So i'm thinking that either Bhaelros is Gruumsh, and he empowered his new prophet to battle away with the church of Talos, destroyed most of his devout worshippers and secretly weaknening Talos enough so that he could march in and destroy him in person and steal his power.

The only problem is that all this took place in the Shaar and Gruumsh doesnt exactly have many followers in the Shaar and probably doesnt know anything about it.


So second scenario is that Talos is Gruumsh and always has been, and a number of upstart gods have appeared over the millennia to challenge his power (The Shaar may well have had a different pantheon of influence to the north of Faerun). Bhaelros was just the latest usurper trying his luck.

He annihilates the church of Talos using his prophet and moves in for the kill (i.e. he wanders into Talos' home plane and tries to kill him). Only then does the poor dolt realise that Talos is actually the head of the orcish pantheon and still extremely powerful, even with most of his human devout worshippers dead.

Talos kills Bhaelros and takes the power from Bhaelros' worshippers and then rebuilds his church again, not caring a whit for the human priests because this is all just a massive ploy of his to have the humans destroy themselves.

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Originally posted by hashimashadoo

I'm thinking that your 4th option is probably the correct one - especially considering the next given date: 1101 DR. I'm thinking that it's far more likely that the Balance was created 400 years ago.

The earliest reference I've been able to find for Tyr is -284 DR so we know that he was being worshiped in Faerūn (the reference refers to the Marching Mountains) before the Procession of Justice, but a relic being created for him during the Silver Age of Netheril? Unlikely.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So here is the answer to Tyr from Ed and THO. I'm just glad it doesnt involve anything to do with earth Tyr, those earth/Faerun cross overs of gods are just messy and annoying.

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Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").

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Take from it what you will. I will be going with the idea of several different Tyr's all vying for the same deityhood.

Tyr must be a translation of some deific true name for justice giver or something like that.

So we have Arrtyr, Achanatyr, and Anachtyr all vying for the portfolio of justice way back in the past.

Iltyr definitely sounds like a beholder to me. The fact that he has beholder worshippers also makes me suspect. I reckon Iltyr promoted an aspect of rigid justice through strict adherence to the laws at around the time the Jhaamdath was descending into its nasty age with plenty of persecution and other evil things.

So maybe Belaros coming from the Lake of Steam was actually being duped by Iltyr. He went on a pilgrimage north to the Vilhon Reach/Jhaamdath area to preach about this new god of justice and forged a sacred relic to prove his god was most powerful.

He gets enough worshippers to make Iltyr an actual god, Iltyr spanks all the other Tyr variants in Jhaamdath (justice can take many forms so why not allow many justice gods). After Jhaamdath falls and the various gods of justice are gone the beholder god also dies (because beholders dont really worship gods all that well and all his human worshippers are gone). Anachtyr it seems survived in Calimshan for a bit although was probably very weak because Calimshan is not known for being a fair and just society. He uses his last vestiges of power to send an avatar and his divine servants on a parade of righting wrongs throughout the Vilhon Reach area and is reborn as the singular god of justice.


The dates actually match up sort of okay.

-2387 DR three beholder colony ships land in the Alimir Mountains and conquer Calimshan.

This is almost in the right time for Belaros (about 300 years short) of 4,000 years ago (discounting the apocryphal 4e time jump). So its entirely possible that Belaros met a beholder that called himself Iltyr masquerading as a god of justice.

The beholders in the Lake of Steam vie with Calimshan for centuries.
In -1080 DR the beholders of the Lake of Steam are driven underground.

Then in -990 DR there are rumours of the Jhaamdath empire spreading plague in Calimshan.

Shortly after Jhaamdath's destruction in -275 DR the beholders reappear in the lake of Steam again.


Maybe the beholders were using the god Iltyr (who was secretly a beholder) to amass worshippers in Jhaamdath that could be used against Calimshan.


As an aside and an exercise in play on words. We have Arrtyr which means "all justice" so he probably represents the over arching concept of justice. Achanatyr which means "Sword of justice" and so probably represents the execution of justice. Anachtyr then could mean "Words of justice" (i just moved the order of words around for sword) so he probably represents written laws. Iltyr may have passed himself off as the god of justice absolute (so obey the laws above else) but illtyr could mean ill justice making him actually a god of vigilantism or personal justice.
In fact after Iltyr removed the other gods of justice it would have been appropriate if he in turn was destroyed by Valigorn the god of Anarchy towards the end of Jhaamdath.


Anyways i appear to have let my brain run wild there for a few minutes sorry about that, i'm going to go and sit down.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I suppose it makes more sense for a Jhaamdathi god to be psionic in nature and so Iltyr would be more like a brain in a jar, but instead of in a jar, he is in some weird floating orb with a big eye and a tail (not sure about the far realm link though).

I definitely wont be using option 3 for Gruumsh i'm afraid because it involves the spellplague and thats a dirty word (kinda like star wars episode I the Phantom Menace being a dirty word for star wars fans) and doesnt count as FR for me.

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