| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 14:37:46
Just randomly flitting from project to project and i decide to flesh out the western heartlands a bit more when notice that there is a massive gap in dates for anything happening in the area.
You have the big segment of dates for the crown wars which includes Shantel Othreier (70% of which is consumed by fire by the illythiiri in -10110 DR).
I figure that burning leads to the creation of the vast swathes of plains land around the Green fields and most of the rest of the western heartlands.
Then between -10000 and -8000 Evereska and Illefarn are established in the area.
That still leaves the big empty land in the south of the western heartlands in which nothing happens until the Netherese begin arriving around -2758 DR.
So what existed in this area before hand.
Obviously there were scattered holdings of elves left over from Shantel Othreier. There were probably orcs that managed to make it past Earlann and Illefarn during their massive hordes. Maybe hobgoblins from Nomog Geaya in Tethyr.
But nothing jumps out at me as dominating the area until the Netherese arrive and turn it into vast farming estates.
However i did notice this quote about Nedeheim
quote:
–5360 DR to –5350 DR: Giant Wars: More than five thousand giants of Nedeheim fall to the dwarves of High Shanatar under the leadership of Karlyn of House Kuldever. By the war’s conclusion, more than half of the entire giant population south of the Cloud Peaks is exterminated, and the giant realm of Nedeheim is reduced to scattered clanholds.
Why state south of the cloud peaks. Could it be that the giants also dwelled north of the cloud peaks.
There are giant ruins in the western heartlands "Fallen Giant Tomb" is known to dwarves, elves and giants. That is a curious mix in itself and the only period those three races could have existed in the area was between -8000 and -2758. During that period we have Illefarn, the remnants of Shantel Othreier, Ammarindar, Oghrann and Nedeheim all in close proximity to the western heartlands.
Anyone else know who might historically dwelled in the western heartlands before the humans (Netherese) arrived in -2758 DR?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Jun 2016 : 19:47:59
As for beregost i couldnt say since my research and areas of interest usually stops at 3rd edition. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Jun 2016 : 19:46:49
Id almost certainly say stone giant. Its entirely likely that darkhold was once a palace of nedeheim that fell into ruin and was rebuilt by a netherese arcanist that used elementals and giants to do it.
The dodkong (a possible relation to obadhai) then showed up and ousted the arcanist before leading most of the former slave giants into the underdark.
Some giants remained and ended up splitting into two factions. The princes of these two factions died and the last of the giants fled into the surrounding mountains.
Now nedeheim may have been founded by obadhai itself and his crown now sits on the head of the dodkong.
The western heartlands is a region full of stone giant links. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 21:20:56
Is Beregost in or around the modern land of Ertulgard(sp)?
Great scroll btw. Awesome discussion... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 17:06:44
Anyone have a clue as to which type of giant build Darkhold? I guess Stone Giants, because it still stands after all those millenia. The architecture I imagine it having is greatly influenced by which gianttype made it and with which purpose.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 29 Jul 2014 : 08:04:38
I do have a document of info on the western heartlands with most of the ideas on this thread included.
Quite bizarrely you are the third person this week to ask for something after i uploaded all my stuff to google drive so i will send you a link and you can download it. |
| Razz |
Posted - 29 Jul 2014 : 04:27:28
This was a great find, as I am running a game currently in Sunset Vale.
Any chance you have a full compilation of this? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 14:39:35
Found an interesting quote about the Western Heartlands.
quote:
The area now known as the Fields of the Dead has been a battlefield since the earliest days of Faerûn, long centuries before the reign of the dragons and thousands of years before the arrival of the elves and dwarves. In the earliest days, when only the deities and the Eldest Races walked or flew above the oceans and lands of Toril, the Sharn and the phaerimm fought a great war in the mountains of what would become the west coast of Faerûn. As the phaerimm's magic cascaded off the Sharn's shields, the land beneath the battle warped and shrank. Mountains that had formerly soared to scrape the foundations of the homes of the divine powers collapsed in upon themselves until they turned into low hills. The great western mountain range of Faerûn disappeared, seen only in garbled visions of the cataclysmic past, by seers who misstep while viewing the future.
Now this might just be my take on it but this quote references two events.
The first when it says "in the mountains of what would become the west coast of Faerun". I believe this is a reference to the Sundering as it implies that during this time it wasnt the west coast of faerun therefore there was more land, possibly the homeland of the sharn and or phaerimm (which may be why we havent got an origin story for them because the land they come from was wrecked by the elves and the sundering.
The second is the war between the sharn and the phaerimm that causes the land to turn from mountains into hills and plains.
Now my memory may be playing tricks on me, but i believe the lands of the fey were destroyed by the sundering so maybe this points to the sharn and or phaerimm being an end point evolution of the fey (which might explain why elves were able to transform a number of their members into sharn because they are also fey in origin).
Anyway i thought it was an interesting paragraph so there we go. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 15:10:41
There i think thats pretty much the history of the Western Heartlands done now.
Not the most interesting of regions history wise, but then again as far as official history goes it has always been glossed over and ignored (The orc horde passing from the north to Amn and Tethyr for instance made no mention of the Western Heartlands . . . )
Still got to pull together all the organisations and the NPCs and other bits of info, but as always i have everything in a word document if people want it.
I'm definitely gonna go over the Prayers from the Faithful and Pages from the Mages books with a fine tooth comb now. They have excellent random lore bits in there.
Although i did notice that there are at least two Arbanes in realms history. One an evil archmage who may have been connected with Ilhundyl the mad, and one a good elf wizard (who crafted a famous sword?).
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 15:04:35
Just a couple of dates, some canon some not about the Sunset Vale region
-1235 DR Year of the Black Horde: The largest orc horde in history masses in the North and besieges countless settlements on its march south through Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan, including Illusk, Waterdeep, and Silverymoon.
-The orcs rampaging through the Western Heartlands on their way to Amn, Tethyr, and Calimhsan besiege the settlements along the River Chionthar. Iriaebor is particularly badly damaged; its crumbling towers are still not fully repaired. Many orcs take up residence in the Sunset Vale; forcing out the humans living there, and begin annually raiding settlements such as Sulduskoon, Elturel, Iriaebor, and Scornubel.
-1264 DR Year of the Shattered Altar: The Helm of Helm, a sacred relic of Helm is discovered by Garshond of Harkstag as he takes part in the defence of Iriaebor against a hobgoblin led army of orcs and goblinoids.
-1265 DR Year of Flowers: Garshond of Harkstag in the Backlands of the Western Heartlands calls the Council of Helm in his fledgling temple keep; The Watchtower of the Vigilant. Out of this council Garshond creates the Vigilant Riders to protect the roads linking Waterdeep, Baldur’s Gate and Iriaebor.
-1266 DR to 1268 DR: Garshond’s War: Brigands and hobgoblins of the Western Heartlands unite against Garshond of Harkstag and his Vigilant Riders.
-1268 DR: The Battle of Ghost River: The Vigilant Riders of Helm and Garshond are killed by a horde of orcs, goblins, and brigands over twenty times their number. The Vigilant Riders are utterly destroyed but the strength of the raiders is also severely reduced.
-Inspired by the Vigilant Riders and Garshond, the people of the Sunset Vale put their faith in Helm and rally to defend their lands. A warrior named Berdusk unites the people behind his banner and crushes the orcs, goblins and bandits of the region. He earns the nickname “Orcslayer” and the settlement of Sulduskoon is renamed Berdusk in his honour.
-1269 DR Year of the Moat: Temples to Helm are erected in the major settlements of Elturel, Scornubel, Berdusk, and Iriaebor. Smaller temples to Helm are erected in the Sunset Vale in the Western Heartlands to keep the orc and bandit populations down and watch the Backlands for trouble. The settlements of Hluthvar, Corm Orp, Hills Edge, and Hardbuckler spring up around these temples atop the ruins of previous settlements.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 14:08:40
Rough outline for the following eras of the Western Heartlands
The Quiet Years 376 to 714
Emerging from centuries of petty kingdoms and expansionist warfare, the city states of the Western Heartlands settle into a time of relative peace and prosperity for a frontier region.
The kingdom of Delimbiyran and later Phallorm and the Kingdom of Man to the north keeps the orcs from the Western Heartlands (although a few crept into the area during the fall of Athalantar). The newly formed kingdom of Amn to the south provides massive volumes of trade and increased protection from monsters to the south as well.
The cities prosper and grow and the people grow rich. Baldur’s Gate quickly becomes the richest city in the region and fast bursts its walled boundaries created a century earlier by Balduran.
Monster troubles are much less than normal for a frontier region as the local populace band together to ensure bandit and raider troubles are eliminated quickly so that trade is not affected.
During this time the kingdom of Najara; that secretly survived the kingdom wars of the past few centuries, grows in power and plots to remove threats to it’s continued existence, one of which is the kingdom of Phalorm to the north.
The rulers of Najara incite the hobgoblins of the Western Heartlands to attack Phalorm and the resulting conflict kills the elven king of that realm and begins the process of collapse that subsequent hordes of humanoids finish over the coming centuries
All this comes to an end however with the Fall of Myth Drannor and the resulting destruction of Delimbiyran by the explosion of the Warriors Gate.
With the northern bulwark of united kingdoms destroyed the orc hordes that are so common in the north penetrate further south with each horde and more and more orcs arrive in the Western Heartlands.
The Troubled Times 714 to 1268
During this time every decade sees another orc horde pass through the Savage Frontier and every year they cross the River Delimbiyr and reach further into the Western Heartlands.
Worse still the fall of Ascalhorn and creation of Hellgate Keep result in demons of all kinds being spotted in the Western Heartlands as well.
The roads become unsafe to travel and are quickly known as the most dangerous in all Faerûn. Settlements are fortified, people huddle in their homes, and everyone learns to use a sword or a spear lest they die at the blades and claws of ravening monsters.
The large merchant cities of the region spent much of their profits on mercenary companies and standing armies to patrol the region and keep the monster population under control.
However an event begun many centuries earlier with the fall of Myth Drannor spells disaster for the Western Heartlands. A legion of hobgoblins and orcs from the Stonelands threatened the Western Heartlands and a vast army is hastily mustered against them.
The Battle of Bones in 1090 DR is bloody and costly and drains the region of manpower and money for many, many years. The region is so weakened that when the biggest orc horde in known history occurs in 1235 DR, the cities and people of the Western Heartlands can do nothing to stop it. They shut up their doors and their windows and hope the horde passes them by.
The settlements of Elturel, Scornubel, Sulduskoon, and Iriaebor are besieged on the horde's route south to Amn. Iriaebor in particular suffers extensive damage, so much so that its crumbling towers still haven’t been repaired today.
The orcs occupy the Sunset Vale for many years driving out the people and periodically laying siege to their settlement. The populations of the major cities in the area dwindle to almost nothing. Only the hardiest and most stubborn remain.
Then in 1264, the god Helm sends aid to the beleaguered people of the Western Heartlands. A devout worshipper of Helm named Garshond attempting to relieve the decades long raiding of Iriaebor, discovers the Helm of Helm; a sacred relic of his god.
With this relic in hand he convenes the Council of Helm at his fledgling temple keep in Harkstag and with the attendees there founds the Vigilant Riders, an organisation dedicated to ridding the area of orcs and goblinoids.
In a series of conflicts the Vigilant Riders battled the orcs, goblinoids, and bandits in the Sunset Value. Ultimately all the raiders united against Garshond and with a force 20 times their number, smashed the Vigilant Riders utterly.
Garshond’s War however was an inspiration to the people of the Western Heartlands. A warrior named Berdusk organised his own band in the settlement of Sulduskoon, and gathering warriors from the surrounding settlements finished off the weakened orcs, goblinoids, and bandits in the Sunset Vale. In his honour Sulduskoon was renamed Berdusk
Shrines, temples, and keeps to Helm sprang up around the Vale and around them towns like Asbravn, Hluthvar, Corm Orp, Hills Edge, and Hardbuckler were created out of the ashes of old ruined settlements from years past. Each new fortified settlement also had its own defence force; such as the Red Cloaks of Asbravn, to protect themselves and the roads around them.
Once again the Western Heartlands became a relatively peaceful area and riches flowed into the region
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 12:26:50
Found a little paragraph in the 2nd edition campaign setting.
Its states that Baldur's Gate is actually composed of 2 cities.
The first was a completely walled city (the wall Balduran helped establish no doubt).
The second city occured after the founding of Amn when trade profits drastically increased and the city burst its original boundaries.
So Amn was officially founded in 460 DR which means Baldur's Gate first came into existence before that date so my randomly picked date of 324 (although a must have settlement existed there prior to that date) wasn't entirely off.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2014 : 02:10:44
Oh, and I didn't place anything on that map - everything you see there was positioned precisely by Eric Boyd. I merely drew it.
My point is, its definitely canon, and not something I just 'fudged'.
There are a bunch of 'lost Realms' mentioned in Prayers from the Faithful and Pages from the Mages as well. I used to have a list, but thats long gone. There were several coastal and island realms/settlements that 'sank' beneath the sword Coast over the years.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 19:25:10
Damn, I was hoping the pharren uplands were below the river Delimbiyr and extended south through the Backlands. But thankyou very much for the map, I hope you don't get in trouble.
As for the areas around Athalantar I got the impression that they were all north of the Delimbiyr river and therefore not part of the Western Heartlands.
I'm sure I read somewhere that Mlembryn was in the Dessarin Valley which again is north of the Delimbiyr river and so not the Western Heartlands.
I know they are nearby but in the past I reckon that like in the north the settlements followed the main rivers (The Chionthar), and given the sparse number of settlements in modern times north of the Chionthar river it is safe to assume that the lands north of the Delimbiyr were quite well separated from the Western Heartlands and so interaction between realms in the two areas would have been little (probably one reason why the human realms south of Delimbiyr contributed any swords to help fight off the orc hordes).
The other thread you pointed me to provided loads of info on the heartlands though, especially Torsil.
I can see what you mean about the geography of the Heartlands changing.
I have found one reference to magic users spying into the very very far past becoming confused by a mountain range that is no longer there.
In 1180 something there was the great storm of Umberlee that sunk an island in the Moonshae Isles I think.
Then another storm caused by Talos that sunk an island in the Nelanther Isles.
Who knows what other damage those storms did. As for the mountain range disappearing I assume that is something to do with the Sundering, but there is also the Sharn magic changing things |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 17:54:01
I don't think you read the right parts of that article - you missed all the places outside of Athalantar, like the Mlembryn Lands. 
You need to read the part entitled "The World around Athalantar" beginning on pg.34.
And now for a little something I don't think I will get in too much trouble showing you: Map Clip.
You can see where 'Pharren' was.  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 12:18:15
Altered the eras of the Western Heartlands to include some ideas for what happens between -339 and 376 DR |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 12:11:07
Came up with a quick timeline for events that we dont have dates for.
-286 DR Year of Foul Awakenings: The Netherese arcanist Uldoon “Mage of the Fangs creates a tower centred on modern day Beregost and begins enslaving the surrounding humanoids of the area using armies of summoned fiends. The Emirate of Torsil is born.
-150 DR Year of Recompense: The Netherese arcanist Uldoon, ruler of the Emirate of Torsil disappears from his tower in unknown circumstances. His apprentices vie for control of the Emirate, with several of them banding together to carry on ruling in the same way as Uldoon, abducting folk nearby and enslaving them, making them mine the mountains or till the fields until they drop from exhaustion. The apprentices are however unable to enter Uldoon’s tower which is sealed from within by powerful magics.
12 DR Year of Wistful Looks: The Duchy of Indoria is founded in what will become the Fields of the Dead in the Western Heartlands between the Troll Claws and the Forest of Wyrms by Netherese arcanists that subjugate local Talfiric human tribes.
324 DR Year of Freedom’s Friends: The explorer Balduran arrives from a sailing expedition to Anchorome abound with riches. He purchases for himself the kingdom of Balduran from the surviving duchies of Ebenfar (Indoria, Shavinar, etc) and builds a wall across the end of the river Chionthar. The four rulers of the duchies purchased by Balduran set themselves up as wealthy merchant sailors in the renamed capital of Baldur’s Gate; gateway to the kingdom of Balduran.
329 DR Year of the Closed Scroll: Balduran leaves the kingdom of Balduran on another expedition into the Trackless Sea.
331 DR Year of the Cold Clashes: When Balduran does not return to his kingdom tensions begin to mount. The poor farmers seize the wall blocking the end of the River Chionthar and begin taxing those wishing to pass. In response the four previous Dukes, now wealthy merchant princes “liberate” the city and take control of the kingdom in Balduran’s absence ruling as four Dukes once again.
I figure that after 376 DR the kingdoms of the western heartlands are gone for good.
The people have had 600 years of warfare on and off between rival kingdoms and they are probably sick of it and sick of being ruled over by a lord or a king from afar that doesnt really care.
So after Cormyr and Shoon finish fighting over the Western Heartlands there are no more kingdoms, no more duchies, no more baronies, just individual settlements and city states.
This is also the time when the orcs make inroads into the area.
Athalanter falls shortly after 376 DR to an orc horde, that would let orcs into the area (especially with no large kingdom watching it's borders).
Then other realms to the north like Delimbiyran and Phalorm lose ground to repeated orc attacks (and other disasters). So after this time the orcs make inroads and it looks like they take over the Sunset Vale (according to the writeup on Berdusk).
So the warrior Berdusk can later liberate the vale making it safe for humans again and having Sulduskoon renamed to Berdusk. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 11:10:46
Well if its the elven word for clearsprings then that makes sense. It's just humans taking over from the elves (no dwarves).
Found the emirate of Torsil.
Cant believe i missed that one.
Uldoon "mage of the fangs" creates a tower in the area that will become modern day Beregost and claims all the land between the cloud peaks and candlekeep.
He has a penchant for summoning fiends so its got to be an evil realm. I figure he summons a load of fiends, enslaves the humans, hobgoblins, elves, giants, and anything else he can get his hands on. He hacks through the Glimmerwood (Wood of Sharp Teeth/Cloak Wood) despite the resistance of the elves to forge a road to the Chionthar valley.
I figure he was a Netherese arcanist (given his power level and evil nature and penchant for flinging magic around).
I made up an arrival date of -286 DR mostly because of the name of the year.
Torsil is destroyed around 375 DR (probably beginning in that date) by an unnamed paladin wielding Dornavver. It doesnt say he killed Uldoon so i reckon Uldoon disappeared a few centuries earlier (maybe abducted by the fiends he summoned). This paladin then wandered around hacking fiends to death and the apprentices of Uldoon until all enemies were gone.
Oddly enough Uldoon's tower is the exact same tower that Halaster occupies when he creates the demonshields. It is also the same tower that Ulcaster founds his magic school upon.
Maybe the unnamed paladin should be called Beregost. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 10:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The High Moor was dominated by a dwarven Kingdom for a time - the 'Border forts' strung along the perimeter of it belonged to them (Its mentioned somewhere in Dwarves Deep).
Yeah, that's Fallen Kingdom stuff, with a bit of Ironstar and Besilmer ruins. Also we are mostly discussing the roughly 550 miles of terrain between the Cloud Peaks and the High Moor because the High Moor and further north have a detailed history while that empty stretch of terrain does not.
I found it strange that the dwarves expanded into every nook and cranny from Calimshan to the Cloud Peaks and then started travelling for hundreds of miles to establish new enclaves and strongholds in new territories instead of expanding nearby. The presence of the Throrgar may be while those 550 miles of land have no record of dwarven strongholds and this in turn has slowed the human encroaching (no dwarves present to do the heavy lifting so all the orcs, goblinoids and giants and whatever were left for the humans to kill).
The closer they went was Oghrann, in the Tunlands, and it lasted barely 1400 years (-5125 to -3770), all the other new realms founded between -5000 and -3900 (Haungdannar, Gharraghaur, Besilmer, Ammarindar, Delzoun) were founded further north. To me that's enough of an indication that the dwarves avoided the underdark between the Cloud Peaks and the High Moor.
Now on to the giants, Lands of Intrigue page 21 under the Shanatar's Height section: "Despite later border strife with the giants, Coramshan, and elves of the three forests, Shanatar began an era of relative peace for its surface lands that lasted nearly 200 years." So yes, there were still giants roaming around in large enough numbers to cause border strife.
Oh and on the Sulduskoon, well the "" on page 79 of Forgotten Realms - Adventures in this sentence: "The village was previously known as Sulduskoon, or "Clearspring" to the elves." make me think it's the elven traslation, that coupled with the elven clan Suldusk is enough for me to say Sulduskoon is an elven name (unless we want to say the dwarves named the clan of elves ...). But that's really just arguing over details so have it named by whatever racial group you want. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 09:16:58
Well I didnt find much in dragon 228 unfortunately, it deals mostly with lands around the Delimbiyr Vale and north of the River Delimbiyr.
However there are odd references to places people come from or died in and they could be duchies or baronies or even cities in the western heartlands.
So we have Darniir, Athalgard, Narthil, Pharren. I suspect Athalgard is the name of the castle in Athalantar.
Darniir and Narthil sound like outlying provinces or cities so they could exist in the Backlands.
Pharren is the name of an elven realm or forest (usually the two are synonymous) so i think the wood that gets split into the reaching wood and forest of wyrms may have been called Pharren. But it sounds like that it is already gone by 235 DR.
Askavar is around during Athalantars time which backs up the other references in varous books. They made excellent pottery. In fact according to dragon 228 the finest elven wares come from Shantel Othreier which of course is already long divided into the two woods in the north east (Pharren) and south west (Askavar) of the western heartlands.
I wouldnt be surprised if Askavar survived the fall of Shantel Othreier and remained in the Wood of Sharp Teeth/Cloakwood up until they finally abandoned the forest around 500-600 DR.
However as the dragon 228 article says. The elves often lose to humans and other organised races because they do not like to form armies. The elves of Askavar strike me as great crafters, not particularly warlike and so they fight to keep the borders of their forests but ultimately it is a losing battle.
So has anyone heard of Darniir, Narthil or Pharren in any novels (maybe to do with Elminster). Otherwise i may make Darniir and Narthil human provinces/settlements in the Backlands.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 08:15:54
Unless Sulduskoon is the elven word for Clearsprings i dont think it was the elves that transferred the name because the settlement was originally an elven one called Clearsprings. Then it became a human fishing village called Sulduskoon, then finally the human city of Berdusk.
Although Clearsprings would be a good name for a river.
Now i'm off to dig out my copy of dragon 228 and find info and Askavar.
Cheers Markus. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Feb 2014 : 04:49:42
The High Moor was dominated by a dwarven Kingdom for a time - the 'Border forts' strung along the perimeter of it belonged to them (Its mentioned somewhere in Dwarves Deep).
In fact... Dragonspear Castle was actually a restored one of those (they merely used the foundation to build a new fortress on the same site... but there are truly ancient dwarven delves beneath the keep).
EDIT: Not sure, but Eric Boyd may have connected them to one of the iterations of Illefarn.
Also, if you read the last few pages of Ed's (brilliant) Athalantar article in Dragon #228, you'll note several kingdoms/realms are mentioned in passing - most with an accompanying descriptive text telling us where-abouts they were.
And then there was Askavar, an 'Elven Community' in and around The Wood of Sharp teeth. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 22:20:38
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
As for Sulduskoon. I named it that for the only likely being to have migrated from the area of the Sulduskoon river around the time that humans existed in the Western Heartlands (since it was a human fishing village called Sulduskoon).
Eh, i have it backwards!
To clarify: elves of clan Suldusk from Keltormir / Shantel Othreier name the river and establish the first settlement, later due to the fires/giants/wars they move south into the Waeldath (that was way bigger back then) and rename the river they establish themselves near Sulduskoon like the old one. When trade relations are established with the dwarves of High Shanatar the river is already there and named Sulduskoon and the dwarves (and the humans and everyone until now) keep calling it with it's elven name.
I'm all for the Talfir tribes settling here and there around the Green Fields, struggling with orcs, hobgoblins and trolls and whatever the evil DM threw at them for generations and generations until, with the influx of Netherese refugees around -400 and onward, humanity starts to get more than a foothold in the region. (But i'll still insist that the poor elves of Arunduth clinged to the forests until the serpent-folk of Najara and the Orogoth dragons eradicated them around -300).
I'm still looking and checking but i think one of the big obstacles to dwarven expansion in the region (past the Cloud Peaks) may have been underground (and somewhat of a legacy of the creator races, too): looking at the map in the 3e Underdark near the lands we are discussing sits Throrgar, the Shrieking Abyss, a gargantuan fissure battered by cyclonic winds, riddled with portals to Cocytus (2nd layer of Pandemonium) and full of slaadi strongholds (it was the batrachi that battled the slaadi? Or the sarrukh? My creator races knowledge is weak) and other nastyness.
This explains why the dwarves, after kicking the giants' butts, stopped there and started migrating north (or went due east like with Oghrann in the Tunlands). Also, with no dwarven allies to kill the sparse giants and all the goblinkins and orcs, it was much more difficult for humans to settle those lands (they had to do all the hard work by themselves). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 21:28:08
Well actually my imagining of the Western Heartlands is actually not too far off. I picture another larger forest in the Green Fields but that looks to be entirely gone.
So the western forest in that region stretched from the Cloakwood to the Wood of Sharp Teeth.
The eastern forest stretched from the Reaching Woods to the Forest of Wyrms almost completely encircling the Trielta Hills.
So this quote from GHoTR says to me that within a thousand years the elves would be gone from the Western Heartlands.
quote:
-7950 DR: Full trade exists between the dwarves of Deep Shanatar and the elves of Darthiir, Tethir, and the dwindling remnants of Shantel Othreier.
They probably migrated to Evereska or Illefarn rather than face certain destruction in the dwindling forests.
Now I kind of agree that we don't have many facts to back up Netherese dominating the entire Western Heartlands and I suppose its fair enough to confine them to the Backlands. It is a fertile area and full of Sarrukh ruins so that would have kept their interest and limited unnecessary expansion (they only really moved out of the Anauroch Basin in search of magic).
However human expansion into the area in the age of humanity is inevitable and I can pin it on the Talfir instead of the Netherese just as easy.
The Talfir in Thaeravel were conquered by Netherese in -3392 DR and they couldn't move over the Farhorns Forest like the Netherese so they had to move through the Tunlands where they have free reign to move into the Green Fields area.
I stand by my giant kingdom being the reason humans didn't migrate into the Western Heartlands earlier however. There are numerous references to giant kingdoms in the area.
Fallen Giant Tomb where a great chieftain of mountain giants was laid to rest
In Hills Edge is a reference to vanished giant kingdoms in the Reaching Uplands (mouth of the reaching river I take this to mean) and further north.
There are warring giant tribes in the hills around the hill of lost souls.
Darkhold was built for giants and one of the legends is that it was built during the time when giants ruled all faerun. A castle of giant emperors is a term used.
This quote from GHoTR shows giants in the western heartlands area (cloud peaks at least, probably giants run and sunset mountains as well.
quote:
-10270 DR: The Stone and Claw Campaigns: The withdrawal of Keltormir’s forces to close and defend its own borders pits the forces of Aryvandaar and Ilythiir against each other. They soon close ranks and fight incessantly for two centuries. Battles rage across the giant-infested mountains and wemic-claimed plains north of Keltormir.
So giants were all over the Western Heartlands area and they were mountain giants/stone giants as well.
The war of Nedeheim with Shanatar undoubtedly destroys the military but eradicating an entire people is near impossible (even in our real world with machine guns and artillery). So the majority of the population of Nedeheim probably survived. The blurb on Darkhold even states the Netherese enslaved the giants there, so there was still a giant presence even in -2758 DR.
This quote from GHoTR shows that only the army was destroyed.
quote:
About -5350 DR, the last major giant tribe of the South died in the Fall of Karlyn’s Vale, the home plains of many giants between the Troll and Giant’s Run ranges. According to dwarven oral tradition, the Giant’s Run got its name when the remnants of the giants’ armies fled to those mountains.
So with repeated mention to giant kingdoms and still existing giant ruins, giants existed here after the forests were burned. These giants then kept the humans and dwarves out of the Western Heartlands (Fields of the Dead and Greenfields area). They may even have contributed to the decline of the forests and the elves. Only giants and humans seem able to compete with elves (short of massive orc hordes which never made it past illefarn and the high forest so couldn't get this far).
When the Netherese arrive they enslave the remnants of the giants in Darkhold, the rest of the giants having dwindled over time after the dwarves destroyed their armies.
As for Sulduskoon. I named it that for the only likely being to have migrated from the area of the Sulduskoon river around the time that humans existed in the Western Heartlands (since it was a human fishing village called Sulduskoon).
High Shanatar fell -2600 DR. Netherese moved into the Backlands from -2758 DR and the Talfir may have moved into the Western Heartlands even earlier. So I figure dwarves created the village and the humans moved in afterwards and they took the dwarves name.
If you have a better suggestion im open to ideas.
Hopefully I have defended my case enough for a giant realm (most likely Nedeheim or the remains of it) north of the Cloud Peaks and therefore in the Western Heartlands area.
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 20:44:19
Well I'm more glad that I contribute something that people feel they can steal than anything else so thanks.
I suppose I fell victim to copying the text of the GHoTR without the pictures. I will have a look at that map and see how different I imagined it.
At first glance you may have a point and I may have mistaken a single reference referring to the Western Heartlands when really it should only be the Backlands, although it looks like it was the entire backlands.
We have Netherese ruins beneath Hluthvar and around Hill's Edge and Hardbuckler, the Duchy of Indoria (which was Netherese ruled) around the Troll Hills, and the enclave of Orbedal over the Troll Hills.
Oh well back to the drawing board. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 20:21:00
Sigh, i tried hard not to, but i'm going ballistic now after the posts about the Sulduskoon ... sorry everyone for the incoming rant. In my (partial) defense, i'm anal about all this because i love these threads by dazzlerdal and if i'm not contributing i'm happily lurking and stealing since everything is always high quality, but this time it's not due to a couple of wrong and unproven assumption.
So,the multipart rant now begins:
1) The Sulduskoon: gods i hate quoting myself but really ...
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
... (Berdusk was named Sulduskoon in the past, like the Sulduskoon river in Tethyr and the Suldusk clan of elves in the Waeldath ...
And then you pin it on the dwarves? Also this gets us straight to ...
2) The elves: i don't like the pointy ears but you outright ignore them in this thread. The forests in -9000 were FAR bigger than what remains now, the dragons, the genies, the dwarves and later the Calishites butchered the forests of the Western Heartlands / Amn / Tethyr / Calimshan. Just look at page 44 of the GHotR, on the map there (year -626), look how bigger the forests north of Amn are, you see the name squarely sitting in the Western Heartlands? That's an elven kingdom, a remnant of Shantel Othreier / Keltormir, very active in the area, so much that the GHotR on page 37 notes: "–1100 DR: The last great wyrm of the Wyrmwood falls by elf hands, and the kingdom becomes Arundath the Quiet Wood.".
3) The Netherese: here is the biggest problem i have with this thread, you are taking the palatial villa of one family of Netherese mages and blowing it out of proportions claiming they established vast farmlands estates in the whole Western Heartlands without any source backing you up. I've read the parts you referenced in Lost Empires of Faerun and Serpents Kingdom and there is not even a single mention of wide Netherese farmlands in the Western Heartlands. The only reference one could possibly link is the fact on page 105 of Serpent Kingdoms in the Backlands writeup it says that "Fertile Netherese farms once covered this region" and that's it. That's again blowing things out of proportions without any proof, you go from farms in the Backlands to farms in all the Western Heartlands. That's like saying that all the Sword Coast is as populated and urbanized as Waterdeep. I'll reiterate, up until the Diaspora the Netherese kept their collective noses out of the part of the Western Heartlands we are discussing here (south of the High Moor) with the exception of the Orogoth family, that settled the Serpent Hills in -2482 and disappeared in -2211 (dates from Serpent Kingdoms). That's it, no more Netherese until the Diaspora, the Fall of Netheril and later the fall of the Three Realms (Asram, Anauria and Hlondath).
In Serpent Kingdoms there is one passage that sounds similar to what you claim: "In the Year of Bold Pioneers (-461 DR), the phaerimms beneath Netheril began casting the lifedrain spells that would eventually transform all of Low Netheril into the Great Desert of Anauroch. While High Netheril's nobles conducted business as usual in their sky cities as if nothing of import were occurring, the rich farmlands that employed and fed the bulk of Netheril's populace quicly fell barren." But this refers to Anauroch, NOT the Western Heartlands.
So to summarize, your timeline is ok up until the end of what you call "The Forested Years", starting then there are a lot of problems: the forests and elves are still there, Nedeheim falls in -5350 and the giants largely flee east to the areas aptly named Giant Plains and Giant's Run Mountains, there isn't any "Netherese Expansion".
I'm sorry because i know i'm coming out like a complete jerk but i need to be proven wrong before i shut up again, also feeling that my posts aren't being ignored (like with the Sulduskoon) would help. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 19:32:15
Well I think Ebenfar and Najara are probably the last dominating kingdoms/empires in the area.
From that point on its every man for himself and you only rule over as much land as you can keep.
I am leaning towards the Barony or Duchy or even kingdom of Balduran as founded by the man himself. Baldur's Gate then becomes the gateway to the xxxxx of Balduran.
After all the guy was a very rich explorer so he could easily have purchased land from people to create the Duchy. He might even have purchased four neighbouring duchies to create his kingdom and the rulers of those four duchies become the grand dukes of the kingdom.
The kingdom could be created somewhere between 277 DR and 376 DR.
The destruction of the kingdom could occur in the fighting between Shoon and Cormyr in the region (maybe the dukes chose to remain independent and suffered loss of territory for it - the land was burned or the peasants felt aggrieved at the lack of help and seceded from the kingdom). So by 376 DR all that is left is the independent city of Baldur's Gate with its 4 grand duke rulers. |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 18:36:27
The Kingdom of Shavinar (between the Troll Hills and the Chionthar, established in 227 DR, fell to trolls in 277 DR) is all I can think of at the moment.
Since the fall of Netheril (and later Anauria) the Heartlands appear to have been dominated by one realm or another. Until the coming of Ebenfar, it was Najara. There was also Athalantar and then the Duchy of the Snarling Boar came after. There was also the intrusion by Vastar up from the Shoon Imperium but the as-written development of the Heartlands SEEMs fairly modern. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 16:41:43
Well i found one petty kingdom.
The Duchy of Indoria.
Then there is the Principality of the Snarling Boar
Anyone have any others? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 16:20:01
So i have divided the history of the heartland up into rough periods as follows.
The Sarrukh Empire-34500 to -28000
During this time the Sarrukh empire of Isstosseffifil rules supreme in Anauroch and spreads into the forested expanse of what will become the Western Heartlads.
They build several cities with many human, lizardmen, and naga servants in what is now know as the Backlands.
Never a particularly numerous or fertile race; once Isstosseffifil falls after the war with the phaerimm, the remaining sarrukh numbers slowly dwindle and their servants flee the ruins of the once great civilisation.
Ostoria 28000 to 25000
After the fall of the creator races their came a time of giants. From the lands far to the north and east came the giants. Creatures of enormous size and power that created a vast kingdom called Ostoria; at its height it stretched from the Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach and the Stone Giants ruled over the area that would become the Western Heartlands and Amn.
When the dragons mature on Faerûn they quickly challenge the giant’s supremacy and in a two millennia long war shattered the power of the giants and fragment Ostoria into smaller subkingdoms.
During this era the Keep of the Fallen Hills is created as a summer capitol for the giants of Ostoria. This keep will eventually become known as Darkhold long after Ostoria’s fall.
With the giants out of the way, the dragons rule Faerûn, but do not notice the elves creeping into the forests and all too soon the elves end the supremacy of the dragons by creating magic powerful enough to drive all dragons on the planet mad for prolonged periods of time.
The Forested Years-25000 to -9000 DR
During this time the Western Heartlands are vast swathes of forest that eventually become the kingdoms known as Shantel Othreier in the south and Miyeritar in the north. They are populated by increasing numbers of elves that live in harmony with the land.
Until the expansion of Aryvandaar and its war with Ilythiir in 10110 DR elven rule is all but uncontested in the area.
Starting in 10110 DR, the Ilythiir begin burning vast sections of the forest and by 10060 DR over 70 % of Shantel Othreier in the Western Heartlands is destroyed.
The land is burned and blackened by the foul magics of the Ilythiiri, and takes centuries to recover.
After 10000 the elves march against the Aryvandaar empire and the Western Heartlands once again see war on the borders of Aryvandaar in the High Moor and slowly pushing back to the High Forest and the Vyshan homeland.
Meanwhile the land that was once Shantel Othreier slowly recovers, becoming fertile and lush grasslands broken up by large forested areas (Glimmerwood and Phellarn) which are the remnants of Shantel Othreier.
Nedeheim-9000 to -2758
With the elves and the forest of Shantel Othreier largely destroyed, the giants that had been hiding in the mountains and hills (The Cloud Peaks, the Troll Mountains, the Sunset Mountains) return to claim the land that was once theirs.
The elven powers in the region are the forests of Pharren in the Backlands (Reaching Wood and Forest of Wyrms), Askavar (Wood of Sharp Teeth and Cloakwood then known as the Glimmerwood), and Arundath (The Snakewood). They are known for their exquisite craftsmanship, but not for their military might. They manage to keep the humanoids and giants out of the forests but slowly they lose their territory and numbers.
The plains of the Western Heartlands during this time are full of goblinoids (mostly hobgoblins) and wemics. The hobgoblins came from the lands to the south, while the wemics had existed in the area since the time of the Sarrukh.
Again the giants occupy and rebuild the Keep of the Fallen Hills and name it their capital. Then they set about enslaving the hobgoblins to their will and driving the fierce wemics from the land. The giant kingdom of Nedeheim is born.
Nedeheim rules the Western Heartlands uncontested until it comes into contact with the dwarves of Shanatar in the lands to the south.
The dwarves of Shanatar, finally break the giant kingdom of Nedeheim by slaughtering over half of their number in a conflict known as the Giant Wars.
The kingdom of Nedeheim collapses without its military and its ruling chieftains (most of whom have been slaughtered). The 5000 or more giants left in the western heartlands form into isolated clan holds ruled by the strongest giant in the family unit.
Meanwhile the remnants of the army of Nedeheim are pursued out of the southern lands through the Giants Run Mountains by the dwarves of Shanatar. By the time they reach the capital of Darkhold there are but a few hundred left.
The returning chieftains and generals evict the giants in the Sunset Mountains and Darkhold as disloyal for allowing Nedeheim to collapse in their absence. This creates a lasting enmity between the stone giants in the area that lasts to this day.
With so few giants left the chieftains of Nedeheim are unable to reforge their kingdom and it remains degenerated into small clan holds in enormous log longhouses
Eventually, one by one, the hobgoblins rebel against their dwindling masters, they burn the clan holds and scatter the giants back to the hills and mountains.
Towards the end of this period the Talfir humans of Thaeravel begin migrating into the Greenfields area of the Western Heartlands through the Tunlands adding further competition to the remaining giants and the tribes of hobgoblins.
The Netherese Expansion-2758 to -339
With the creation of the first enclave of Xinlenal by Ioulaum, the Netherese begin a rapid expansion of their empire. The population of Netheril explodes and more farmland is sought to feed the rapidly increasing population.
The archwizards and arcanists of Netheril discover the ancient ruins of the Sarrukh in the Backlands and establish many villas with which to explore these ruins.
There they discover body twisting magics and ancient artefacts of tremendous power. Using the isolation they perform magical experimentations that are outlawed even in decadent Netheril. The birth of the ophidian race is a result of one such magical experimentation gone awry.
The Netherese also find the Backlands to be very fertile and establish large farming estates in the area which is naturally avoided by the tribes of hobgoblins because of the ancient and evil ruins.
The Talfir establish the many spired settlement of Iriaebor during this age in homage to ancient Thaeravel. They also establish little fishing villages along the River Chionthar such as Sulduskoon (later known as Berdusk) and other small settlements in similar places to the modern day settlements of the Western Heartlands, eventually reaching the Sea of Swords and the Coast.
The Petty Kingdoms of the Western Heartlands
-339 DR to 376 DR
With the fall of Netheril comes a wave of migration of Netherese migrants. These migrants hack through the Far Horns forest and the forest of Phellarn, leading to the abandonment of that kingdom by the elves therein.
They are quickly pushed out of the Backlands area by the fledgling kingdom of Najara which directs waves of poisonous snakes and dragons at the refugees, forcing them to move on.
The Netherese led by powerful arcanists settle along the river Chionthar like the Talfir before them. In some areas they come to live together in relative peace despite the tensions of the past. In other the Netherese forcibly evict the Talfir and occupy existing settlements, or create those of their own.
The Emirate of Torsil is founded by one such arcanist Uldoon, Mage of the Fangs. He established a tower on the site of modern day Beregost and from there he enslaved all peoples (human, hobgoblin, elf, dwarf, and giant) that he could find with bands of summoned fiends. He begins logging the Glimmerwood despite elven resistance so that he can build a road to the coastal settlements on the Chionthar River.
Ebenfar is founded later by Verraketh the Shadowking after he discovers a powerful artefact in the High Moor in -34 DR. He forcibly assimilates the petty kingdoms along the River Chionthar valley such as the Duchy of Indoria
The clashes between the mighty kingdoms of Ebenfar and Najara bring open warfare to much of the Western Heartlands, the Talfir and Netherese humans are forcibly conscripted into the mighty army of Ebenfar and any dissent is met with persecution as evil sweeps the land.
The kingdom of Najara is beaten and retreats into the Serpent Hills. The empire of Ebenfar begins to fracture and other realms like the short lived kingdom of Shavinar appear on it’s borders.
Ultimately Verraketh is imprisoned and Ebenfar collapses into city states and small provinces once again.
Uldoon disappears, possibly taken in a summoning gone wrong. His apprentices carry on his rule using summoned fiends and enslavement until an unknown paladin wielding a magical sword dedicated to Ilmater arrives and destroys the evil rule of Uldoon’s apprentices.
Just after the destruction of Torsil the armies of Valashar/Shoon and Cormyr come to blows in the Western Heartlands, turning the area into a battleground once more.
The incessant wars between large kingdoms and the effect it has on the people leaves many distasteful of kings and emperors. The land is divided into individual city states each fiercely independent of one another and none wishing to be ruled by a lord from afar.
Edited: Altered the history to better reflect Netherese and Talfir migration and included some events during the era of petty kingdoms |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:59:18
And there are the nearby Skuldask Road and Uldoon Trail.
The survivors of High Shanatar that were trapped aboveground must have journeyed north to the Sunset Vale and given it the name Sulduskoon. |
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