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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 14:37:46

Just randomly flitting from project to project and i decide to flesh out the western heartlands a bit more when notice that there is a massive gap in dates for anything happening in the area.

You have the big segment of dates for the crown wars which includes Shantel Othreier (70% of which is consumed by fire by the illythiiri in -10110 DR).

I figure that burning leads to the creation of the vast swathes of plains land around the Green fields and most of the rest of the western heartlands.

Then between -10000 and -8000 Evereska and Illefarn are established in the area.

That still leaves the big empty land in the south of the western heartlands in which nothing happens until the Netherese begin arriving around -2758 DR.

So what existed in this area before hand.

Obviously there were scattered holdings of elves left over from Shantel Othreier. There were probably orcs that managed to make it past Earlann and Illefarn during their massive hordes. Maybe hobgoblins from Nomog Geaya in Tethyr.

But nothing jumps out at me as dominating the area until the Netherese arrive and turn it into vast farming estates.

However i did notice this quote about Nedeheim

quote:
�5360 DR to �5350 DR: Giant Wars: More than five thousand giants of Nedeheim fall to the dwarves of High Shanatar under the leadership of Karlyn of House Kuldever. By the war�s conclusion, more than half of the entire giant population south of the Cloud Peaks is exterminated, and the giant realm of Nedeheim is reduced to scattered clanholds.

Why state south of the cloud peaks. Could it be that the giants also dwelled north of the cloud peaks.
There are giant ruins in the western heartlands "Fallen Giant Tomb" is known to dwarves, elves and giants. That is a curious mix in itself and the only period those three races could have existed in the area was between -8000 and -2758. During that period we have Illefarn, the remnants of Shantel Othreier, Ammarindar, Oghrann and Nedeheim all in close proximity to the western heartlands.

Anyone else know who might historically dwelled in the western heartlands before the humans (Netherese) arrived in -2758 DR?

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 17 Feb 2014 13:06:19

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6669 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 22:48:12

The Heartlands are very much a blank slate historically prior to the raising of the Standing Stone. Heck, even after 1 DR there isn't all that much detail. I think that your idea re the giants holding sway for a fair chunk of time has merit, and may also account for the 'wide open spaces' that exist there on account of the giants and their slaves felling forests.

For a bit of fun, I'd also like to see some sort of humanoid kingdom (hobgoblins preferably) for a time there also. I added a hobgoblin horde to the rank of nasties that attacked Phalorm in the 500s DR and like to think they were a remnant of a long-ago greater realm of hobgoblins that held their own for at least a couple of centuries.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 13 Feb 2014 22:49:17

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 23:45:57

There was some sort of 'giant kingdom' in/around the Sea of Fallen Stars that the elves have legends of (so possibly falling around the same time Cormanthyr was on the rise). There are some bits strewn around both SoFS products. The only remnant of them are giant-sized ruins on some islands and also cyclopskin on many of those same islands.

There also had to be a goblinoid kingdom in the region somewhere, considering the lore regarding the City of Grodd (in TSR11634 Into the Dragon's lair). It could have been connected to Hlundadim, but I don't think so (it seemed way more advanced then the Hlundadim goblins probably were - almost like ancient Roman goblins, including bronze armor, so I'm thinking much more ancient).

EDIT: Don't forget about Thaeravel, the Land of Alabaster Towers, and the 'Cloud Kingdom' that lie above the stonelands (yet another ginat kingdom, are at least, one they were dominant in). There is also a few mentions of wars with giants in regards to Netheril as well, so giants had an obviously large presence in the Eastern Heartlands at one time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 14 Feb 2014 02:28:54

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11859 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 02:59:31

having the north dominated by giantish populations whenever the northmen arrive sounds like a perfect history.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 09:22:25

I had noticed the hobgoblins reference in GHoTR for phalorm and I figure with the close proximity of holorar and hlundadim and nomog geaya the hobgoblins would be common in the area.
Mostly I was looking for a barrier, a reason why all the kingdoms we know of didnt occupy the greenfields area until Netheril, a giant kingdom would fit the bill.
As for thaeravel I had thought about them and since I think thaeravel was a group of talfiric humans they migrated into the area at the fall of netheril. Then after that they created ebenfar.
The cloudlands I reckon were around in the immediate aftermath of Netherils Fall so didnt exist at that time, however there were several cloud and storm giant clans in the greypeak area.

I was kind if imagining a primarily stone giant realm but one that lived in the plains in massive log houses (and so left no ruins) their realm would be severely diminished after the war with shanatar and so was easy prey for the hobgoblins who in turn were destroyed by the netherese.

One thing I did note was the recurring mention of wemics in the surrounding area which in my idea for the spirit realmd were created by the sarrukh which have ruins in the area and so the netherese discovery of sarrukh ruins could have led to experimentation on merging creatures which occured a lot in dekanter and the far horns forest.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 15:36:44

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
... the Netherese begin arriving around -2758 DR.

I couldn't find any reference for this, care to share your sources?

As for what was in the Western Heartlands after the fall of Nedeheim i suggest going with all the monstrous humanoids and goblinoids you like and elves. The dwarves of Shanatar put an end on the giants of Nedeheim, that's for sure, the giants that survived scattered and moved away from the dwarven lands and into the Far Hills (Darkhold) and the Giant's Run Mountains. No chance of any kind of giant kingdom near Shanatar up until -2600 when the humans of Calimshan finally destroyed High Shanatar shattering the might of the dwarves after 3000 years of war. And after -2600 you get the first human settlers coming in from the south.
The dwarves of Shanatar were the barrier preventing humans from the popolous south and east (Calimshan, Vilhon's Reach, Chondath) from building any meaningfull kingdom in the western heartlands, add to that the presence of goblinoids and monstrous humanoids and the remainders of the elven holdings (Berdusk was named Sulduskoon in the past, like the Sulduskoon river in Tethyr and the Suldusk clan of elves in the Waeldath, and the elven realm of Arunduth/Arundath was alive and kicking up until -1100 when the elves killed "the last great wyrm of the Wyrmwood" and definitely were still there up to -616 as shown in the map on page 44 of the GHotR).
Once the dwarves were taken out of the picture past -2600, humans started settling the western heartlands (the parts not claimed by the elves) fighting orcs, gnolls and goblinoids. The empires of the south (Calimshan, Shoon Imperium, Valashar) expanded time and again in the western heartlands clashing with the local population of monsters and humans from the north and from the east (the most famous clash is the victory of Cormyr in the late 300s).
It's only after the fall of the Shoon and the establishment of Amn and Cortryn in the 400s that huge armies stopped showing up every other season destroying everything, and minor settlements rose.

{All the dates i referenced above are from the Grand History of the Realms}

We get hints of what was there in the chronological gaps (beside the elves, that left somewhen before the establishment of Najara in -361) in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, in the individual write-ups of the various independent cities and locations:
- Fields of the Dead (page 87): "The Fields are named for their recurring use as a battleground: first between humans from warmer lands invading the territories of nomadic gnoll, goblin, and orc tribes"
- Elturel (pages 93-94): "The heart of the city is a cliff-sided tor, a natural stronghold that was held by trolls and then orcs before humans drove them out and first settled here."
- Asbravn (page 149): "At corners where tracks and trails meet in the town stand old, cracked, stout stone pillars surmounted by crumbling horse heads. These are the only visible relics of an ancient city, Urdrath of the Horsemen, that stood on this site. The Horsemen were nomads who moved to Tunland or the Savage North long ago. Urdrath was where they came to worship and bury their dead in catacombs beneath the streets."
- Berdusk (page 153): "... first the elven moot of Clearspring; then a human fishing village, Sulduskoon; and finally the city known today. The current city is named for Berdusk Orcslayer, a local human warrior whose energetic patrols drove orcs from the area, making it safe to farm and opening the Vale for human settlement."
- Hardbuckler (page 182): "Hardbuckler is named for a long fallen dwarf adventurer who made his home here after he won a spectacular battle on this spot leading his small axe-throwing band, Hardbuckler'#146;s Hurlers, against a bugbear host."

Berdusk namechanges are repeated in Forgotten Realms - Adventures (page 79), in the same book Elturel's sparse history is repeated on page 85.

Piecing all these together is difficult, but i think all these bits and pieces make it clear the western heartlands were frontier lands on par with the savage north up until the first (positive) centuries of dalereckoning (with the notable exclusion of the elven holds in the woods).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 17:09:25

I cant recall where I found it to be honest. Maybe the Netheril boxed set said they began farming the western heartlands during the golden age of netheril, maybe it was volos guide to the north.
The giants of nedehein are detailed as losing half of their number south of the cloud peaks so many could have moved north into the western heartlands or indeed already lived there.
The barrier is more what stopped the creatures in the netheril basin or humans from the north or the elves from establishing something in the area. Its a big land with plenty of plains and so ideal for a huge kingdom to form there.
Yet it wasnt until netheril arrIved after -2758 that we have any indication of civilisation here despite it being surrounded by civilisations of various races.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 17:33:30

Nedeheim was shattered by the dwarves of Shanatar, the survivors scattered and fled, they didn't form a new kingdom. Elves count as civilization? If so then you have elves in the Wyrmwood and surrounding areas. Humans in the north were too few to cause waves of migrations, the Vilhon, Chondath and Calimshan were far more popolous and sent waves after waves of immigrants in the rest of Faerun.

The year you give for Netherese expansion refers to their expansion in the savage frontier with the building of outposts during the Silver Age (pages 7 and 8 of the N:EoM boxed set). The Netherese had almost nothing to do with the Western Heartlands proper until the Fall and the subsequent diaspora.

I'm leery of planting civilizations of which we have no proof of existence in the middle of the map just because there's vast open space. Nedeheim got its arse kicked by the dragons of old like all giant empires, then by the elves that claimed the forests and then by the dwarves of Shanatar, by the -5000s DR there was not very much left of the giant empire it was.
I listed a number of possible reasons why there weren't human cities and kingdoms in the western heartlands until later, why the need to bring in some giant kingdom no one ever heard anything about (with plenty of neighbours ready to witness the rise and fall of such a civilization)?

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 19:06:11

Well the need to fill in the gaps is precisely for the cycle you just mentioned.

Everywhere in the realms follows the same cycle.

Dragons and the giants fight each other.

Elves beat the dragons with the dracorage mythal and or the giants depending on who is in the area.

Then the humans arrive in the area when the forest is cleared.

You missed out the last piece of the chain but it always happens and it is almost immediate (within 100 years usually).

Yet here we have the giants and dragons gone from the area long ago. The elves of Shantel Othreier dominate the area until -10110 DR when the Illythiiri burn the forest.

Then we have vast expanses of open space in the western heartlands but no mention of humans until -2758 DR. That's a long time for the humans to leave this area alone.

And the humans weren't prevented from arriving by pure geography. Thaeravel in the stonelands was created -4000 DR. The Talfir tribes that formed Thaeravel lived there for a long time (according to the Netheril book) so what stopped them moving into the Western Heartlands.

Something must have made this region special to stop the occupation of it by the humans. Monstrous humanoids are never enough to stop humans dominating an area, humans breed almost as quick and are much more developed so they always win.

Now the rest of the supposition is just from me reading between the lines of the pieces of info we do have.

I got the dates for Netheril's arrival from Lost Empires of Faerun and Serpent Kingdoms. The blurb about Netherese villas states that ruins of Netherese Villas dot the Serpent Hills dating back to the Silver age (-2758 DR to -2207 DR). Then other pieces about the Western Heartlands state that the land was once dominated by fertile farming estates that fed the empire. Put the two together and we know the Netherese began arriving from -2758 DR onward.

The bit about Nedeheim is stretching it a bit but I'm looking at what the quote doesn't say rather than what it does.

quote:
-5360 DR to -5350 DR: Giant Wars: More than five thousand giants of Nedeheim fall to the dwarves of High Shanatar under the leadership of Karlyn of House Kuldever. By the war�s conclusion, more than half of the entire giant population south of the Cloud Peaks is exterminated, and the giant realm of Nedeheim is reduced to scattered clanholds.

So I extrapolated several things from this quote.

1 - 5000 giants were exterminated and from the info about Cairnheim the survivors fled to the Giants Run Mountains. This however was probably just the militia/armed forces of Nedeheim so the non combatants are still alive.

2 - Half the giants south of the cloud peaks are killed. Well if 5000 were killed that means there are another 5000 still around which is a lot of giants. Also what about north of the cloud peaks. It says half of the giants south of the cloud peaks were killed which implies none of the giants north of the cloud peaks were killed.

3 - The giant realm of Nedeheim is reduced to scattered clan holds and given points 1 and 2 they probably mostly exist north of the cloud peaks which is the western heartlands.

So up to 5000 giants may have lived in the western heartlands and they are all gone either by the time the Netherese arrived or because the Netherese arrived.

We have the fallen giant tomb to indicate that elves and dwarves and giants all existed in the western heartlands at one time (no humans mentioned).

The Netherese are known for their genocidal tendencies towards monstrous humanoids and giants (says so in the Netheril sourcebook) so it is not inconceivable for a few enclaves to fly over the Western Heartlands and annihilate the remaining giants before the settlers arrive and begin creating the first settlements that will probably become one day the settlements that exist now.

However I like George's idea for hobgoblins and I think it entirely possible that the giants used hobgoblin slaves (because they couldn't find any humans) and once Nedeheim was destroyed the hobgoblins probably started getting a bit rebellious and uncontrollable and they finished off a few stone giant clanholds themselves.

Plus I like filling in the blanks and the Western Heartlands has a massive 5000 year blank in it

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11859 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 01:08:12

Yeah, I like having giants there... but probably not "organized into a cohesive group". I'm thinking more like tribal roaming giants. They may have even come into conflict with one another. Then throw in ogres and trolls as well. The remainder of the elven holdings have to deal with the issues (and the orcs) and thus don't expand. If you wanted to throw in hobgoblins and goblins as well, that would fit too. Then along come the northmen and they begin slowly entrenching their way into the north and "civilizing" it as they go to a degree.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 08:44:55

Well im not sure the orcs or the northmen ever made it this far south that long ago (-8000 -2758).
The elves in the north appear to have done an excellent job of annihilating orc hordes before they get past ardeep.
And the first mention of humans we have in the area are the netherese. They probably evicted the remaining giants themselves and then set up massive farmsteads.
When Netheril fell these farmsteads might have been the start of the first settlements that we know today.
There was also a migration of talfirs into the area when Netheril fell.
Later around the time of phalorm we might get northerners arriving and after that cormyr and shoon have a bit if a fight in the area which brings chondathan and tethyrian people into the mix.

I was picturing small clan holds like it said in the GHoTR quote but im sure many would band together if threatened by a kingdom of humans ir dwarves ir elves. That way they survive for millennia bur slowly dwindle over time

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11859 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 09:59:48

Oh, hey, remember in another thread how we were discussing the giant deity Karontor (the one who visited some underdark hags and then "twisted a fair race of giants into the fomorians"). I just noted the Maur, or hunched giants from the Underdark expansion. I'm thinking these are a great "spin off" race maybe bred by Karontor on those hags. With its meld into stone and move earth abilities, it could be an interesting addition.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 09:09:23

The western heartlands is a bit far from narathmault though.
I thought the maur were corrupted storm giants. It would seem much more likely that a clan of storm giants in the area were used for magical experiments by the netherese (who were practising the body twisting magic they found in sarrukh ruins in the area). They might even be why the netherese fought that war with the giants (I think thats the one that killed strategor malick).

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11859 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 13:53:16

yeah, but we're literally talking about around 28 thousand years. In that time they may have migrated all over, especially if they had to flee narathmault when the dark elves came. Their history says they were from an "outcast band of storm giants" banished into the earth for "long forgotten crimes". Karontor may have led some disillusioned storm giants to work with the hags... with the hags possibly using illusory magics to disguise themselves from the noble giants. It could be an interesting write up as to what these "long forgotten crimes" are.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 12:53:51

Well it looks like the Backlands area is swarming with Sarrukh ruins, and the Netherese do indeed look to be using sarrukh body twisting magics (the fact that they create a serpent's curse and turn their servants into ophidians says to me that this is sarrukh magic gone wrong - at least from the Netherese point of view).

Now after -451 serpent kingdoms says we have an influx of refugees from lower netheril (which i call seventon) into the backlands area. They displace the ophidians and cut down vast swaths of the Far Horns Forest (thus beginning the creation of the Far Forest, Weathercote Woods, Forgotten Forest).

I reckon more than a few arcanists numbered among the refugees and some of them uncovered more Sarrukh body twisting magics because around -360 DR the village of Westwendt is destroyed by mutated monsters of unknown origin.

In -345 the city of Unity is attacked by magically mutated monsters.

I reckon the Netherese arcanists that fled to the Western Heartlands area uncovered a few Sarrukh magics *much like House Orogoth millennia earlier) and accidentally unleashed some horrible creatures by combining themselves and those around them with multitudes of creatures that were nearby.

Looks like the western heartlands also has a definite hobgoblin presence. Reading over my Netheril notes it references troubles with goblinkind in the Far Horns Forest area repeatedly. Goblins would not be so organised or dangerous to give the Netherese any trouble so it must be the larger goblinkind.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 13:06:05

Eek, found a date snaffoo

In Serpent Kingdoms it details the kingdom of najara's efforts to unite hobgoblins of the Reaching Woods into a horde against Phalorm in 577 DR.

It states that these infiltrators are dealt a blow at the battle of Notched Axes and again at the battle of Blunted Fangs.

However the Battle of Blunted Fangs is in 557 DR and i have no idea when the battle of Notched Axes occurs.

So the infiltrators were killed in battle 20 years before they were sent.

Of course i could just change the date of the infiltrators being sent to 547 DR

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6669 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 14:49:20

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Eek, found a date snaffoo

In Serpent Kingdoms it details the kingdom of najara's efforts to unite hobgoblins of the Reaching Woods into a horde against Phalorm in 577 DR.

It states that these infiltrators are dealt a blow at the battle of Notched Axes and again at the battle of Blunted Fangs.

However the Battle of Blunted Fangs is in 557 DR and i have no idea when the battle of Notched Axes occurs.

So the infiltrators were killed in battle 20 years before they were sent.

Of course i could just change the date of the infiltrators being sent to 547 DR

That date in "Serpent Kingdoms" is wrong. Eric was unfortunately working off an old version of my North Timeline when he did the history on p.112 and we failed to pick up the snafu in the lead up to the chapter being submitted. The correct date is 557 DR (the Year of the Melding). The date given for the fall of Delimbiyran, the Kingdom of Man is also in error. It should be 697 DR, not 671 DR. The Battles of Notched Axes and Blunted Fangs occurred within a tenday of each other in 557 DR.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 14:54:29

Marvellous George, as always a master of lore.

I might have found another one though that hopefully you can explain.

Principality of the Snarling Boar (457 - 692 DR).

Then in the write up of the marsh of Chelimber it says the marsh was formed in 993 DR when Prince Chelimber of the Principality of the Snarling Boar fell out with a wizard and water elementals were released everywhere.

So did the Principality of the Snarling Boar have different dates (i.e. not 457 - 692) or do we have another Illefarn situation here where it just keeps on coming back (although i like the various Illefarns coming back)?

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1155 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 16:55:28

The above error was fixed in the Grand History by the way.

The Principality of the Snarling Boar was another of those irregularities that bugged me. George looked at this query back in 2004 a month after Serpent Kingdoms came out and raised the issue. He said he'd ask Eric Boyd but I don't think anything was posted after that. He did however say that the Prince Boareskyr (aka the 'Snarling Boar' who built Boareskyr Bridge) probably wasn't the guy who founded the principality.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 17 Feb 2014 17:14:54

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 19:02:37

Well I have nothing against Prince Boareskyr being the founder of the realm.

There is a fountain of eternal youth in the area after all (although I think the naga control it).

Mayhaps there was a bit of a flood in the area and some of the run off was from that fountain that the ha-naga bathed in and it washed over the prince and granted him a really long life span.

Or his name Boareskyr could be a corruption of Boar Esquire making him a younger son of the original Boar.

The issue I have is that one date range says 457 to 692 which I assume refers to the existence of the Principality of the Snarling Boar (although it could refer to the lifespan of prince Boareskyr himself I suppose). Then in 993 DR we have the destruction of the principality which would be impossible if the first date range referred to the realm and not the prince.

Not that it matters. It can just be a refounded principality of the Boar if it referred to the realm, or it isn't a problem at all if it referred to the man himself.

Asharak
Learned Scribe

France
270 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 19:41:35

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Marvellous George, as always a master of lore.

I might have found another one though that hopefully you can explain.

Principality of the Snarling Boar (457 - 692 DR).

Then in the write up of the marsh of Chelimber it says the marsh was formed in 993 DR when Prince Chelimber of the Principality of the Snarling Boar fell out with a wizard and water elementals were released everywhere.

So did the Principality of the Snarling Boar have different dates (i.e. not 457 - 692) or do we have another Illefarn situation here where it just keeps on coming back (although i like the various Illefarns coming back)?

For the Marsh of Chelimber, tsr1085 Campaign setting and tsr9490 Elminster's Ecologies Appendix II says " ... in the early days of Waterdeep... ", so 993 seems more appropriate for the end of the Principality of the Snarling Boar...

"Soyez r�alistes : demandez l'impossible"

Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.

Edited by - Asharak on 17 Feb 2014 19:42:43

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 22:43:30

I would just make Boerskyr (or Chelimber - I am getting confused at this point) a half-elf and call it a day. That way, the first range of years would be his 'reign', not the length of the kingdom itself.

Sometimes the simplest solutions work best.

There is also something in the Volo's Guide to the Swordcoast (IIRC) about a duchy or some-such of Calimshan(!) that far north, extending into Sunset Vale, right around the same time. I wonder if the two were related, one being part of the other?

EDIT:
Nvmd: It was the Yarthrain entry, and Zelarravyan Fangshield was 'the Baron of the Backlands', and it was only "eighty winters ago" (so about 200 years ago from the present campaign time). It wasn't Calimshan either... it was Amn. Ah, well... memory ain't what it used to be.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 17 Feb 2014 22:50:01

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 08:09:20

Now why didnt i think of half elf, i'm always for the simplest solution.

I think you muddled two different events Markus. The Shoon Imperium and Cormyr did go to war in the area (at the fields of the dead again - that place has probably been named the same thing at least 3 times by different peoples) so the Calishites arrived then.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6669 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 11:36:18

Well, I've looked through the draft of "Serpent Kingdoms" and the dates in the book are there in the draft text, so it wasn't an editing error. Hmm, the dates for the life of the Principality given on p.105 are just plain wrong in my view. Not that I like contradicting the text, but I'd give a founding date of 657 DR (4 years prior to Boarskyr building his bridge across the Winding Water) and a fall date of 993 DR as set out in GHotR. I can justify that by stating that the 457 DR date is a typo and should have been 657 DR!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 12:21:26

Well your work is good enough for me George. 657-993 it is

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 14:43:20

Okay, think i have gathered all the history of the western heartlands and the surrounding area and im starting to fill in the gaps.

One interesting name duplication that i found.

Berdusk was originally the elven settlement of clearsprings, then a human fishing village called Sulduskoon, before finally becoming Berdusk after the name of a local warrior.

Now in GHoTR i found this quote

quote:
- c. �2600 DR: The last known dwarves of High Shanatar fall on the northern slopes of the Sulduskoon River in battle against the Tavihr Dynasty of Calimshan. The dwarves seal the last known surface entrance to Deep Shanatar [�8100, �1800].

Seems odd that a settlement in the Western Heartlands would be named after a river down south.

I'm thinking perhaps a few dwarven survivors journeyed north (Ammarindar is just east of the western heartlands so they might have travelled there after the surface entrances to deep shanatar were sealed and they were cut off) and they settle in the Sunset Vale. Some humans join them and eventually the dwarves die out or leave and so it becomes the fishing village of Sulduskoon.

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:05:54

Well, if you look at the maps of Berdusk, you'll see that a Sulduskoon (Clearsprings) River actually flows out of the city into the Chionthar.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:59:18

And there are the nearby Skuldask Road and Uldoon Trail.

The survivors of High Shanatar that were trapped aboveground must have journeyed north to the Sunset Vale and given it the name Sulduskoon.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 16:20:01

So i have divided the history of the heartland up into rough periods as follows.

The Sarrukh Empire-34500 to -28000
During this time the Sarrukh empire of Isstosseffifil rules supreme in Anauroch and spreads into the forested expanse of what will become the Western Heartlads.
They build several cities with many human, lizardmen, and naga servants in what is now know as the Backlands.
Never a particularly numerous or fertile race; once Isstosseffifil falls after the war with the phaerimm, the remaining sarrukh numbers slowly dwindle and their servants flee the ruins of the once great civilisation.

Ostoria 28000 to 25000
After the fall of the creator races their came a time of giants. From the lands far to the north and east came the giants. Creatures of enormous size and power that created a vast kingdom called Ostoria; at its height it stretched from the Cold Lands to the Vilhon Reach and the Stone Giants ruled over the area that would become the Western Heartlands and Amn.
When the dragons mature on Faer�n they quickly challenge the giant�s supremacy and in a two millennia long war shattered the power of the giants and fragment Ostoria into smaller subkingdoms.
During this era the Keep of the Fallen Hills is created as a summer capitol for the giants of Ostoria. This keep will eventually become known as Darkhold long after Ostoria�s fall.
With the giants out of the way, the dragons rule Faer�n, but do not notice the elves creeping into the forests and all too soon the elves end the supremacy of the dragons by creating magic powerful enough to drive all dragons on the planet mad for prolonged periods of time.

The Forested Years-25000 to -9000 DR
During this time the Western Heartlands are vast swathes of forest that eventually become the kingdoms known as Shantel Othreier in the south and Miyeritar in the north. They are populated by increasing numbers of elves that live in harmony with the land.
Until the expansion of Aryvandaar and its war with Ilythiir in 10110 DR elven rule is all but uncontested in the area.
Starting in 10110 DR, the Ilythiir begin burning vast sections of the forest and by 10060 DR over 70 % of Shantel Othreier in the Western Heartlands is destroyed.
The land is burned and blackened by the foul magics of the Ilythiiri, and takes centuries to recover.
After 10000 the elves march against the Aryvandaar empire and the Western Heartlands once again see war on the borders of Aryvandaar in the High Moor and slowly pushing back to the High Forest and the Vyshan homeland.
Meanwhile the land that was once Shantel Othreier slowly recovers, becoming fertile and lush grasslands broken up by large forested areas (Glimmerwood and Phellarn) which are the remnants of Shantel Othreier.

Nedeheim-9000 to -2758
With the elves and the forest of Shantel Othreier largely destroyed, the giants that had been hiding in the mountains and hills (The Cloud Peaks, the Troll Mountains, the Sunset Mountains) return to claim the land that was once theirs.
The elven powers in the region are the forests of Pharren in the Backlands (Reaching Wood and Forest of Wyrms), Askavar (Wood of Sharp Teeth and Cloakwood then known as the Glimmerwood), and Arundath (The Snakewood). They are known for their exquisite craftsmanship, but not for their military might. They manage to keep the humanoids and giants out of the forests but slowly they lose their territory and numbers.
The plains of the Western Heartlands during this time are full of goblinoids (mostly hobgoblins) and wemics. The hobgoblins came from the lands to the south, while the wemics had existed in the area since the time of the Sarrukh.
Again the giants occupy and rebuild the Keep of the Fallen Hills and name it their capital. Then they set about enslaving the hobgoblins to their will and driving the fierce wemics from the land. The giant kingdom of Nedeheim is born.
Nedeheim rules the Western Heartlands uncontested until it comes into contact with the dwarves of Shanatar in the lands to the south.
The dwarves of Shanatar, finally break the giant kingdom of Nedeheim by slaughtering over half of their number in a conflict known as the Giant Wars.
The kingdom of Nedeheim collapses without its military and its ruling chieftains (most of whom have been slaughtered). The 5000 or more giants left in the western heartlands form into isolated clan holds ruled by the strongest giant in the family unit.
Meanwhile the remnants of the army of Nedeheim are pursued out of the southern lands through the Giants Run Mountains by the dwarves of Shanatar. By the time they reach the capital of Darkhold there are but a few hundred left.
The returning chieftains and generals evict the giants in the Sunset Mountains and Darkhold as disloyal for allowing Nedeheim to collapse in their absence. This creates a lasting enmity between the stone giants in the area that lasts to this day.
With so few giants left the chieftains of Nedeheim are unable to reforge their kingdom and it remains degenerated into small clan holds in enormous log longhouses
Eventually, one by one, the hobgoblins rebel against their dwindling masters, they burn the clan holds and scatter the giants back to the hills and mountains.
Towards the end of this period the Talfir humans of Thaeravel begin migrating into the Greenfields area of the Western Heartlands through the Tunlands adding further competition to the remaining giants and the tribes of hobgoblins.

The Netherese Expansion-2758 to -339
With the creation of the first enclave of Xinlenal by Ioulaum, the Netherese begin a rapid expansion of their empire. The population of Netheril explodes and more farmland is sought to feed the rapidly increasing population.
The archwizards and arcanists of Netheril discover the ancient ruins of the Sarrukh in the Backlands and establish many villas with which to explore these ruins.
There they discover body twisting magics and ancient artefacts of tremendous power. Using the isolation they perform magical experimentations that are outlawed even in decadent Netheril. The birth of the ophidian race is a result of one such magical experimentation gone awry.
The Netherese also find the Backlands to be very fertile and establish large farming estates in the area which is naturally avoided by the tribes of hobgoblins because of the ancient and evil ruins.
The Talfir establish the many spired settlement of Iriaebor during this age in homage to ancient Thaeravel. They also establish little fishing villages along the River Chionthar such as Sulduskoon (later known as Berdusk) and other small settlements in similar places to the modern day settlements of the Western Heartlands, eventually reaching the Sea of Swords and the Coast.

The Petty Kingdoms of the Western Heartlands
-339 DR to 376 DR
With the fall of Netheril comes a wave of migration of Netherese migrants. These migrants hack through the Far Horns forest and the forest of Phellarn, leading to the abandonment of that kingdom by the elves therein.
They are quickly pushed out of the Backlands area by the fledgling kingdom of Najara which directs waves of poisonous snakes and dragons at the refugees, forcing them to move on.
The Netherese led by powerful arcanists settle along the river Chionthar like the Talfir before them. In some areas they come to live together in relative peace despite the tensions of the past. In other the Netherese forcibly evict the Talfir and occupy existing settlements, or create those of their own.
The Emirate of Torsil is founded by one such arcanist Uldoon, Mage of the Fangs. He established a tower on the site of modern day Beregost and from there he enslaved all peoples (human, hobgoblin, elf, dwarf, and giant) that he could find with bands of summoned fiends. He begins logging the Glimmerwood despite elven resistance so that he can build a road to the coastal settlements on the Chionthar River.
Ebenfar is founded later by Verraketh the Shadowking after he discovers a powerful artefact in the High Moor in -34 DR. He forcibly assimilates the petty kingdoms along the River Chionthar valley such as the Duchy of Indoria
The clashes between the mighty kingdoms of Ebenfar and Najara bring open warfare to much of the Western Heartlands, the Talfir and Netherese humans are forcibly conscripted into the mighty army of Ebenfar and any dissent is met with persecution as evil sweeps the land.
The kingdom of Najara is beaten and retreats into the Serpent Hills. The empire of Ebenfar begins to fracture and other realms like the short lived kingdom of Shavinar appear on it�s borders.
Ultimately Verraketh is imprisoned and Ebenfar collapses into city states and small provinces once again.
Uldoon disappears, possibly taken in a summoning gone wrong. His apprentices carry on his rule using summoned fiends and enslavement until an unknown paladin wielding a magical sword dedicated to Ilmater arrives and destroys the evil rule of Uldoon�s apprentices.
Just after the destruction of Torsil the armies of Valashar/Shoon and Cormyr come to blows in the Western Heartlands, turning the area into a battleground once more.
The incessant wars between large kingdoms and the effect it has on the people leaves many distasteful of kings and emperors. The land is divided into individual city states each fiercely independent of one another and none wishing to be ruled by a lord from afar.

Edited: Altered the history to better reflect Netherese and Talfir migration and included some events during the era of petty kingdoms

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 19 Feb 2014 12:17:37

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6362 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 16:41:43

Well i found one petty kingdom.

The Duchy of Indoria.

Then there is the Principality of the Snarling Boar

Anyone have any others?

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1155 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 18:36:27

The Kingdom of Shavinar (between the Troll Hills and the Chionthar, established in 227 DR, fell to trolls in 277 DR) is all I can think of at the moment.

Since the fall of Netheril (and later Anauria) the Heartlands appear to have been dominated by one realm or another. Until the coming of Ebenfar, it was Najara. There was also Athalantar and then the Duchy of the Snarling Boar came after. There was also the intrusion by Vastar up from the Shoon Imperium but the as-written development of the Heartlands SEEMs fairly modern.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 18 Feb 2014 19:03:24

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