| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 15 Nov 2013 : 15:42:42
Just found this quote in GHoTR
quote:
–10400 DR: Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [–10000], “the Dark Pit,” at the site of present day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.
Why was this place in the Riildath a place of great evil (before the arrival of the soon to be drow, and before the coming of the Nar and their worshipping of Orcus and binding of Eltab.
Anyone have any other info as to what was in this place that only Wendonai appeared to know about? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 09:46:26
Well im certainly not finished with the idea of the spirit realms. I'm debating whether to make a little netbook of it.
Unfortunately I lack the resources and ability to do anything fancy with pdfs so it would have to be in plain old word. Then I can submit it to be hosted here.
In order to make it useful it would have to be more generic and non specific. And I will probably need create a new thread as this section is for canon only.
If anyone (sleyvas, markus, or anyone else is interested then I might just make a start)
It would need a fair bit of work though as there is almost no lore to build upon. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Nov 2013 : 02:16:05
Crap... did I accidentally kill this? 
Thats what I get for waiting so long to give it a thorough read-through, and then compile all my comments into three huge posts.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 22:17:42
Graz'zt being a devil is something 4e created, but I like it, because it fixes some other snafus I was running into (that tieflings are demon-born and Cambions are devil-born). Of course, some 4e/5e lore screws that up as well (unless Asmodeus is also a demon LOL).
I think 'demon' and 'devil' are just titles, based-upon affiliations. The races of Tanarri and Batezu are normally interchangeable with them, but not always (because not all devils are Batezu, just as not all demons are Tanar'ri). That helps smooth-over quite a bit of problems (especially where the 4e lore is concerned).
'Mal' is prefix alluding to evil - I suppose I could twist things around and say thats been the case since Malkizid (unless his name was originally Kizid, which is another possibility). I also say the suffix 'zt means something akin to 'brilliant betrayer' (a concept only a fiend could come up with).
I like a LOT of what both you guys postulated, but I have to take it all and run it through the 'meat-grinder' of my own lore. For instance, MY elves are all natural shape-changers; they bind their 'spirit' (something different then their soul, BTW) with a totem animal, and then they can take its form. Most choose wolf. However, during the early elf wars (The Crown Wars on Toril) many decided to bind with horses, and the first Chevall were created. From those, the centaur race arose. Thats from my entirely homebrew setting.
Also, in my setting, lycanthropy is the 'curse' derived from some human raping a (Lythari) elf, and the offspring of that union became the first Werewolves. If I use Wolfweres, I would probably just say they were werewolf/gnoll hybrids. As for the gnolls themselves, I say are the descendents of the Hutaakans (Mystara). The original 'gnoll race' came from some other world entirely, and when their interplanetary empire collapsed, colonies were left on dozens of worlds (including FR's Urgnarash and OD&D's Hutaakans - at the time of Urgnarash, the 'gnolls' weren't really gnolls at all. This helps explain some weirdness concerning 'gnoll mummies' we have in FR lore).
Its actually all a bit more complicated then that - I also tie some of that to Vampirism (and the major plot-element of my homebrew setting). On my world, 'Shades' are really high Elves that have found a way of sacrificing part of their life-force for power (the 'half dead'). When some humans got a hold of the ritual, it didn't turn out so well (thus, the first vamps were created).
I once postulated a family tree for the Fey gods and Seldarine (and anti-Seldarine) - they are all related, and also have members in several other pantheons (the most notable being the Celtic and Norse). I have it where Mielikki is actually an ancient elven (archfey) deity, and also goes by the name 'Ki' (from the Sumerian pantheon). You can find Ki's write-up in the original DD. I'm looking at that pic of her now - it seems she has a thing for summoning lions and tigers... a connection to Nobanion (or Baast) perhaps?
Anyhow, I forget where I put Cegliune - I think I had her as yet-another sister of Titania and Aurilana (Auril, now known to us to be The Queen of Air & darkness). I think I may have also made Pale Night the mother of Graz'zt and Lolth (fitting, no?) Twins were the most common form of birth amongst the Sidhe (Fey), with single births considered a bad omen and triplets being a blessing. Thus, I have many of the Fey gods connected this way (for instance, Gruumsh and Corellon are paternal twins and children of Titania, with different fathers - Corellon's was Frey of the Liosalfar and Grummsh's was Malkith of the Dokalfar). Nearly all fey births were twins back then (there is something to that - two halves of one whole - I don't have it all worked out).
You see, the problem is that we think of all these beings in the 'here and now', when all of these beings had very different agendas, allies, and enemies back before the (first) godwar. The war itself wasn't even so much about 'good vs evil', as it was about 'chaos vs order' (which is why we see fiends fighting fiends, and celestials fighting celestials). Think of ALL outsiders as one great, big extended, dysfunctional family. Most of the differences we perceive between all of them is our own preconceptions. The division in the heavens (and hells) is artificial, and didn't always exist.
The first deities (ascended mortals) came from the Creator Races, so the eldest deities should all be from the Fey, Sauroid, Trachi, Aeriee, and Mankin pantheons. And BTW, I think the 'mankind' creator race was quite bit different then the current species of 'human'. People forget to mix-in time and evolution. Picture 'bigger', and what have you got? 
I think all the original pantheons probably shared gods as well. For instance, Seth may have originated with the Sarrukh, but all the Creators probably had him in some form (until Set showed up and took his stuff). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 22:00:00
I would say the seldarine were not gods when lolth was exiled. I read that the elves who migrated to toril worshipped faerie gods.
Similarly when lolth was cast out she was a demon lord.
Thats why I wrote the ascension of lolth and other elven gods into the history |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 21:36:41
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't Wendonai originally a celestial, or am I thinking of someone else? 
I really need to go back over the Elves of Faerűn again; Lord Karsus did a bang-up job with all the history.
BTW, we have many instances of Outsiders 'changing sides' - Graz'zt himself has been both a Demon and a Devil (and I have a theory where he is actually the brother of Lolth!)
Kiaransalee was (probably) a 'dark Elf'. Lolth herself was a dark elf - this was the racial sub-group of elves that gave-birth to the Drow and isn't the same thing as drow (another theory of mine is that the dark elves who were not cursed are now grugach - literally 'wild tribe'.) Thus, 'Dark Elves' were always around, way before Drow were. Just because Kiaransalee is a dark Elf doesn't mean she is drow - that is just an assumption everyone makes. She didn't even originate on Toril - the HOME of the 'descent curse'.
Ya know... what if Threnody wasn't a world... What if it was just the dark elven city in Faerie/The Feywild? 
EDIT: Don't forget "The Lion and the Unicorn" - its where Ed got Lurue and Asl.. err... Nobnion. 
Don't be so quick to 'blame' Lurue for the Wemics. I am sure the lion god had much to do with the 'Spirit Realm' as she did (c'mon... talking animals? Its a given). 
I have it where Rakshasa were responsible for the Quoggoths and many other 'beastmen' in the Realms. I postulated that they had a kingdom in Zakhara in ancient times (perhaps even pre-Sundering). They had many Dgen (genies) as servants, who eventually rebelled, threw the Rakshasa out, and then created their own kingdoms... all before humans were there (the only 'people' would have been the small, indigenous Hin). After their defeat by the Dgen, the Rakshasas hid in the Yehimals; that may have been the reason for the dwarven exodus out of that region.
As for the Rakshasa, they were actually demons tasked to serve the Pharonic pantheon during the Godswar - Baast had brought them over, and Ra told her she was "responsible for them, and they would wear her visage forever-more as a reminder of that charge". Thus, Baast had a very early connection with the Realms, and probably preceded the rest of 'her' pantheon on Toril (I don't really count Baast/Sharess as an Egyptian deity, as I do a 'beastlord' back then... she may have even been a consort of Nobanion at some point). I think the pantheons pre-Sundering would have looked VERY different then they do now (they are forever growing, shrinking, changing, etc, just like everything else in the multiverse).
Just so everyone knows, a little reminder - this NOT canon, it is based off very little canon that I ran with (which I am assuming is the purpose of this thread). Rakshasa appear on many encounter tables for the Old Empires, right on into the borders of K-T and Zakhara, and we used them heavily back in the old Utter east project/thread to tie some stuff together. The Vedic pantheon is FR canon - its in the Malatra/Jungle Lands section of the K-T material (and sadly under-used.)
EDIT2: I only brought-up the Rakshasa because you mentioned Quoggoths, who have a strange hatred for elves, and IIRC, are some sort of crossbreed (Nevermind, just checked - their origins are 'a mystery'). I must have been remembering some homebrew we came up with in the Ue thread. The part about HATING elves is canon, though.
You're thinking Malkizid as the former celestial
Yeah, my main point with Kiaransalee was she's already a deity before the descent. In essence, she's one of the first elven deities on Toril as a result, possibly predating even Lolth (stress possibly, I haven't done the research).
I was considering blaming Nobanion for the wemics in the early ages, but the problem becomes that Nobanion "is an interloper deity, only having established a presence in Faerun a few centuries ago". However, that being said, there is a cat "deity" mentioned that CAN fit the unapproachable east very well. Basically, the entry for Sharess says in short "the Mulan and Turami peoples (of the second empires of Mulhorand and Unther) began to venerate Felidae, a goddess of felines, sensual pleasures, and nomads revered by the barbarians to the north and west". That's where I got the entry for Felidae spawning the cat folk. Since she's from North and West of Mulhorand and Unther, I suspect she may be an Archfey or primordial being, but it definitely places her as being in Thesk/Rashemen/Thay/the Endless Wastes.
Were it not for that statement in P&P, I would have leapt to put Nobanion in these early times. Of course, we could do some finger wiggling that maybe he got banished.. put to sleep... or something else... but I'm trying to keep contradictions to a minimum if I can.
Similarly, I know that Magnar the Bear is found in the unapproachable east. I know of nothing that would say he hasn't been around near forever. So, having surface quaggoth created by him seems to make sense. They probably turned from him after descending into the underdark (or worshipped him less over time). I'm thinking that humans found certain relics left behind later and he was able to instill some worship in them (maybe he granted them the ability to shapechange into bears, or maybe he simply provided them bear companions, etc...), and that the later Yuir elves furthered this worship.
I considered the idea of including Rakshasas. I also considered including lamias. Both would make suitable animal-like additions. It just depends on how much of this stuff do you want to shoehorn in as "having been in Toril since the dawn of time". I mean, we're talking before things like ogres are around. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 19:37:51
Malkizid was the exiled Solar I believe that turned the Vyshaan evil (probably sent by Lolth as well).
So when was Graz'zt a devil, I've never heard that one before, might be an interesting one to look up.
I think my next thread might be along the lines of trying to decide which gods are actually gods, which are primordials, and whether they were mortals, were gods, or were primordial before hand.
If I have a list then I will feel much happier about it all (and means I get to do a ton of research into old gods.)
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 18:17:04
Wasn't Wendonai originally a celestial, or am I thinking of someone else?
I really need to go back over the Elves of Faerűn again; Lord Karsus did a bang-up job with all the history.
BTW, we have many instances of Outsiders 'changing sides' - Graz'zt himself has been both a Demon and a Devil (and I have a theory where he is actually the brother of Lolth!)
Kiaransalee was (probably) a 'dark Elf'. Lolth herself was a dark elf - this was the racial sub-group of elves that gave-birth to the Drow and isn't the same thing as drow (another theory of mine is that the dark elves who were not cursed are now grugach - literally 'wild tribe'.) Thus, 'Dark Elves' were always around, way before Drow were. Just because Kiaransalee is a dark Elf doesn't mean she is drow - that is just an assumption everyone makes. She didn't even originate on Toril - the HOME of the 'descent curse'.
Ya know... what if Threnody wasn't a world... What if it was just the dark elven city in Faerie/The Feywild?
EDIT: Don't forget "The Lion and the Unicorn" - its where Ed got Lurue and Asl.. err... Nobnion.
Don't be so quick to 'blame' Lurue for the Wemics. I am sure the lion god had much to do with the 'Spirit Realm' as she did (c'mon... talking animals? Its a given).
I have it where Rakshasa were responsible for the Quoggoths and many other 'beastmen' in the Realms. I postulated that they had a kingdom in Zakhara in ancient times (perhaps even pre-Sundering). They had many Dgen (genies) as servants, who eventually rebelled, threw the Rakshasa out, and then created their own kingdoms... all before humans were there (the only 'people' would have been the small, indigenous Hin). After their defeat by the Dgen, the Rakshasas hid in the Yehimals; that may have been the reason for the dwarven exodus out of that region.
As for the Rakshasa, they were actually demons tasked to serve the Pharonic pantheon during the Godswar - Baast had brought them over, and Ra told her she was "responsible for them, and they would wear her visage forever-more as a reminder of that charge". Thus, Baast had a very early connection with the Realms, and probably preceded the rest of 'her' pantheon on Toril (I don't really count Baast/Sharess as an Egyptian deity, as I do a 'beastlord' back then... she may have even been a consort of Nobanion at some point). I think the pantheons pre-Sundering would have looked VERY different then they do now (they are forever growing, shrinking, changing, etc, just like everything else in the multiverse).
Just so everyone knows, a little reminder - this NOT canon, it is based off very little canon that I ran with (which I am assuming is the purpose of this thread). Rakshasa appear on many encounter tables for the Old Empires, right on into the borders of K-T and Zakhara, and we used them heavily back in the old Utter east project/thread to tie some stuff together. The Vedic pantheon is FR canon - its in the Malatra/Jungle Lands section of the K-T material (and sadly under-used.)
EDIT2: I only brought-up the Rakshasa because you mentioned Quoggoths, who have a strange hatred for elves, and IIRC, are some sort of crossbreed (Nevermind, just checked - their origins are 'a mystery'). I must have been remembering some homebrew we came up with in the Ue thread. The part about HATING elves is canon, though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 17:24:52
On 'ancestor spirits': because of the nature of death in D&D and the cosmology, the only difference between 'the living' and 'the dead' is location. If my theories about planer boundaries (above) holds water, then it would be far easier for these ancestors to 'stick around', as it were - half in this world, a half in the next (your ideas about Telthors).
Centaurs: My thoughts on them is that they originated in the east (its actually more complicated then that, but I don't want to go-off on another tangent), in the Taan (Hordelands/Waste region), which was beautiful, rolling, verdant planes back then. After the Fey left Toril, the centaurs were left-behind to fend for themselves. Eventually many other groups - mostly humans from the south (Zakhara Mujhari) and east (Kara-Tur Haltai {proto-Tuigan}) began to migrate into the region. There was also an influx of people spreading south from the Bay of Raum (lower Yal-Tengri) region - these were the Gur/Kalmyk/Suren (proto-Raumvari). All of this caused a great exodus of the Centaurs into other regions. Some continued their nomadic ways and moved into the Shaar and even as far south as Zakhara (this would have occurred just before the rise of Imaskar), but many chose to move west, hiding in the forests of the those areas to escape any sort of persecution by the folks taking their ancestral lands (becuse the Taan was about to become a never-ending battleground for an endless parade of civilizations). Thus, centaurs were originally a plains-dwelling people (which makes sense considering their anatomy), but they became forest-dwellers over time, and through necessity. This is why I think the First escarpment (plateau) of Thay was once covered with forest. If you look at the small Thay map in the UE book, there is some evidence of that (small clumps of remaining forest). Addendum: Looking at that map just now, I realize its only the High Plateau that has the forests - I can use that! Now I think only that area was forest - and at the same altitude as the rest back then. This would mean 'something' had to have happened to move the forest up above the rest (trying to tie some things into the 4e changes here - the whole thing got 'raised' up' in 4e). I think this raising of the High Plateau is what caused the Underdark in that region, where Undrek Thoz is (once again, tying us back to the Drow).
Giants, Hags, Fey, and Firbolgs:
I'm going a bit afield with this one (stuff in this thread shoe-horns beautifully with my thoughts in the Hartsvale thread concerning giants), but I think I may have just found a solution to the 'redundant giant deities' problem created by the Giantcraft material, and I am using obscure RW mythology to fix it. The first 'sons of Annam' were created in the planes, probably before the Planes were Sundered. Since they were born of primordial and some sort of air deity, they would be Outsiders (and thus immortal). When Annam carried on his affair with Othea he had another crop of children, but they weren't 'born of an outsider', because Othea was really an Archfey who had stayed on Toril after the rest fled (which happened when the world/planes were sundered). Many Archfey probably did this (including the Yuir Totems and Hro'nyewachu), so that the 'wee folk' who were abandoned by their fleeing cousins/creators would have some support.
So Othea was mortal - she relinquished her immortality when she chose to stay (and was thus affected by the new mortality - death - which was created by the Godwar). Now, if we go to Book of Enoch, we know that when 'spirits' (Outsiders) mate with mortals, the children are GIANT, and have enormous power. Thus the children of Annam and Othea were the first mortal, non-planer giants born. Deities - who I think are just uber-mortals with a template - do not have this same effect; they do pass son some of their divine power to their offspring, but it doesn't manifest in immense size, as it does with other Outsiders.
This would continue in a trickle-down fashion, and why when hags (a female group that branched-off the giants) mate with mortals, they create Hagspawn (small giants). Thus, Hagspawn and ogres are so similar - they are both different results from the same sort of pairing.
Firbolg are interesting and under-used (stupid Goliaths took their stuff!) They look like dwarves, fight against other giants, can change size (VERY similar to Duergar and Spriggans!), and dwarves even look upon them with adoration and awe (see the Cleric Quintet) Its almost as if the Firbolgs were a group of size changing, dwarf-like beings who incorporated themselves into giant civilization, with the goal of eventually undermining it (Fifth Column style). Considering their (Irish folklore) history, the Firbolgs may have been some sort of fey/giant (or even fey/dwarf) hybrid - some sort of 'holy warriors' created to battle all the evil giantkind unleashed in those early days (I also blame the dragons on the giants - in another thread I postulated that the used eldritch {runic} magic to turn dwarves into dragons, to help fight their war with the Fey.)
Not sure how any of that can help you, but it involves many of the same groups you guys are playing with right now (and dragons also have some sort of secret 'agenda' in the east... if not all of Toril). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 17:00:54
Still reading through this thread - GREAT STUFF! I am going to provide my thoughts as I read, and as stuff comes to me.
About Ibixians - there was an earlier version (from Mystara/OD&D) - a type of 'goatman' called a Bargda, and it was more associated with chaos. According to the write-up in the Mystara MC they are a deforemd type of minotaur, so my thinking is that these 'goatmen' were an eraly experiment into crating the Ibixians (which came later), and are much more primitive and chaotic in nature.
I like the Fey, giant, and Hag stuff. If you look over at the Harstvale thread, I have connected the Hags and the giants - perhaps at this very early time (pre-Sundering?) the Ginats and Hags were still of ne race (it would be intersting to explore that split as well). Giants are also closely connected to Fey - they had a war in ancient times, and the Fey won. The Firbolg beat the Fomorians, and then the Tautha DeDanan ("followers of Danu", who is also a Vedic deity) beat them. So we have it where the Fomorians ruled a land - I think its the Feywild, before it had that name - something like the 'Elder Wilds' back then. This was created when the Prime Material was shattered (into the Crystal Spheres) - it is actually the 'spirit world' and a crossroads of sorts (as is the Shadow world, or Shadowfell).
So here's my thoughts on all of that - the Hags, giants, fey, whatever all contributed to the weakening of 'the veil' - the barrier that separates the world from the spirit world. Thus, if you know 'the way', you can simply walk from Toril into the Border ethereal, and from there you travel 'up' (not really - we are talking about at least 4-dimensional physics here) into the Feywild or 'down' into the Shadowfell. Those two planes are really the threshhold of the dimensions beyond - the heavens and hells. Thus, all of those beings - including the Sarrukh and any other Creatori (Creator Races) - would all be using that 'thinness' between worlds to do a little Planes-walking, because the magic is easier (in crunchy terms, spells that would allow planer travel could be cast at lower levels in that region).
The down side of all of that is that things on the other side can come through to Toril easier as well. One of the many jobs of The Chosen (of Mystra) is to 'patch' rents in the fabric of the veil - places where it has become so 'worn' that a tear develops and the two worlds start bleeding into each other (see Elminster in Hell for an example of that). That would make all of these 'dimensional unstable' areas a target for evil (and good) beings to control, because it facilitates moving large numbers of them from their home planes to the Prime Material.
This also ties in with 'chaos magic' and Plaguescarred regions (really the same thing) - areas where the fabric of the Weave has broken down also allow for easier movement between planes. That means that the Weave itself might = the veil between worlds. If we step back and take a wider view of FR's history, we can then see why 'evil types' are constantly trying to destabilize the Weave - it the wall that keeps their kind out (when it is functioning correctly).
On the upside, because of this 'planer bleed' in these regions (and we are talking about the UE & Bloodstone lands right now), certain types of (non-Weave) magic becomes easier, like demonic and Fey pacts.
I need to go back to reading the rest of the thread. For now, I'll leave you with something new to dwell on - there is 'something' ancient imprisoned in the Wizard's reach area, and although its never detailed, it is mentioned in the original Thay product, Dreams of the Red Wizards. I'd have to research it to find the page numbers again. Lord Karsus and I had thought it was Yuir Totem, but it could be something even more ancient (a primordial?) We also figured Umberlee for one of the Yuir Totems, as well as Auril. Since Auril did indeed turn out to be an Archfey (and therefor a possible Yuir Totem), Umberlee could easily be related and another ancient, Fey power. What if Umberlee snatched away the sea portfolio from some earlier god? (and by 'god' I am including anything of that power-tier, including primordials). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 16:44:48
I just had the same thought earlier today about lythari and illythiiri, but i forgot it shortly after |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 16:33:09
Oh, and I should have called Ironfang keep "Helligheim" for its Jotunbrud name, based upon the article on Ironfang Keep by Brian R. James. I started to add a little history of a similar fortress filled with fire giants in Thay, possibly above the sarrukh ruins and involving centaurs and gnolls, but I decided against it because it was kind of straying from the original topic. However, it should be noted that there were 12 such fortresses and it seems only Helligheim survived draconic assaults.
I'm also just now noting that GHotR notes "Helligheim" as a totally separate kingdom from "Ostoria". So, perhaps the entries where I say Ostoria should say Helligheim instead.
Oh, and on the Lolth and Fenmarel Mestarine as sire to the Lythari... hadn't really thought about it prior to right now, but the name Ilythiiri and Lythari are damn similar. I'm thinking too much of a coincidence. Perhaps a portion of the Ilythiiri that settled in the Shaar were also the ones who settle in the unapproachable east, and it was these beings who became the Lythari. Over time, the name became a slight corruption of the original. In fact, the original Ilythiiri worked out an agreement with the dragons, and perhaps the ones who remained in the Unapproachable east were the ones who refused to make alliances with dragons.
from GHotR
"Over time, such giant-ruled kingdoms come to threaten the hegemony of dragonkind, leading to great battles between giant kingdoms such as Darchar, Grunfesting, Helligheim, Nedeheim, Ostoria, and Rangfjell, and dragon-ruled realms such as Argissthilliax, Caesinmalsvir, Darastriverthicha, and Tharkrixghontix. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 16:30:28
Well i'm torn, i like both (obviously i like mine because i wrote it but yours is excellent as well and i couldnt pick which one to choose).
I did notice that you have the Fey behave in a similar manner to other races in that they formed kingdoms based on a race or Type.
I pictured the Fey as forming realms and kingdoms (if such thing can be applied to Fey) based on ideals. Fey are notorious for being fickle and ever changing and so whatever they had chosen to devote themselves to at the moment is the realm that they would join.
These realms need not even have distinct borders, more like groupings of Fey (and possessed plants and animals) that wandered the forest like nomads with their internal members ever changing.
I didnt have any point of reference for the Yuir "deities" so just included the names i knew and assumed they were all the same. It would be nice to have a list somewhere of these random supposed demigods of ancient times which most likely will turn out to be a primordial/archfey (a being with a single body, bound to the material plane that can die, sounds like a primordial to me).
I figure all these aliases and alternate names the deities have were at one point other deities or primordials that they slew or subsumed into themselves. So Herne (who i think is now part of malar) was probably a hunter primordial fey being, any powerful being you come across that has godlike powers could well be a candidate for these primordial/archfey creatures.
Go with it, the more the merrier.
I see you kept my rational for Chupoclops' name (it hit me when i listened to my young daughters eating the other day, he was named after the sound he made eating).
The only thing i'm not sure about is the Sarrukh, but only because of theory. I figure there must be a reason why the spirits also no longer exist in the western realms (after all it is the same land).
The only reason i could come up with is because the sentient creatures that drive belief and the gods originated in the western lands (cormyr, inner sea, dales, etc). I figured the spirits remained in the lands of the east because there were no pantheons that claimed dominion over this area because there were no sentient races that we know of.
In the west the sentient races arrived very early and so the spirits got claimed by the gods of the other races or their own gods that the fey created (belief being an infectious disease).
Without these gods or the idea of gods the spirits in the east lingered and allowed the spirit realms to exist and so the fey remained strong here.
That was kind of the premise of my entire story, the spirit realms in the east existed before belief, and in vanquishing Chupoclops the lythari created the first gods by believing they were godlike beings (before that it is stated the elves worshipped Faerie gods but i dont see that as real worship, more like admiration and servitude of a powerful being you can see and touch - because they could on Faerie those beings were archfey and they were real).
And then that signalled the end of the spirit realms in the east.
As to why the spirit creatures still persist in Rashemen. I dont really see Rashemen as being a god worshipping region, i'm pretty sure most people there actually worship the individual spirits, i guess thats why they still exist there.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 15:54:48
Oh, and also, the being Elikarashae was a Yuir elf who was raised to become a deity, so she came along much later. I do mention Lurue in this early history, and its mentioned in her history in P&P that Mielikki saw her being born. My take on Lurue is that she may be something like a phoenix... if she dies sacrificing herself for the greater good, she is "reborn". I posit an idea based upon this for folks to consider. Before Mielikki, might there have been another huntress deity who was a mortal raised by Selune... Khelliara of Rashemi lore... and before Khelliara, perhaps there was Elikarashae.... and all of these female beings held a powerful bond with Lurue. We know that Mielikki was Toril bound prior to the ToT, and so might these other huntress demi-gods have been. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 15:37:01
Ok, here's my take. I specifically pulled the deaths of powerful beings that become gods, as I'd want to do a lot more research before stating anything like that. As a result, I only cover Chupoclops getting kicked out of the realms by the alliance like you describe (and I leave the exact individuals involved vague). Also, since I didn't want to have elves coming to the realms before -27000 DR, I moved the Lythari immigration, and as a result, they have a lot less involvement in the initial world. I really want more Lythari history in here, but I kind of got blocked. I didn't realize how much I would change it until I started writing. Basically, now Sarrukh, Chupoclops, hags, and dragons all dwelt in what would become Narathmault before Wendonai ever thought to set foot in it. Feel free to rip it apart and/or add-on.
The Spirit Realms
~ -35000 DR
The lands that will one day become the Unapproachable East and Bloodstone Lands were one gigantic forest, interspersed with bits of mountainous terrain. The natural flora and fauna were the predominant life forms, leading to organically forming temporary portals to the plane of Faerie. Through these portals “leaked” bits of Faerie magic, slowly transforming the land and the population. The most prominent effect of this was the formation of spontaneous telthors, or fey spirits, whenever a powerful being died who did not worship a deity. These fey spirits displayed a variety of powers, but the most common was the ability to possess a living being of its bloodline and share its traits. As a result, powerful animals might die, only to continue being involved with their pack or herd through one of their children, until the child grew strong enough to eject the fey spirit. In some tribes, this hosting of their ancestors was actually seen as a benefit and encouraged, but sometimes spirits took undue advantage of the situation and endangered the mortal that they inhabited unnecessarily. Telthors who were rejected by their pack, herd, or flock often began to walk the path of the dark spirits, becoming a threat to the living and nature itself by discovering powerful mystical secrets. Such threats would inevitably become the target of the great spirit hunters, Fenris, a giant primordial wolf, or Magnar, a giant primordial bear, or Felidae, a giant hunting cat rumored to take humanoid form, that travelled the lands of Merrobouros feasting upon the souls of those who would not return to the land from whence they came.
The gnolls, quaggoths, catfolk, lammasu, and wolfweres of the Spirit Realms were some of the first truly sentient humanoids in the area. It is believed that these were particularly powerful spirit beings whom Felidae, Magnar, and Fenris spared the final death by transforming them into a new lifeform. Their cultures were still extremely primitive and tribal, little more than small groups of hunters who had to prove themselves against their former families of wolves and bears. Lurue, the Unicorn Queen, is rumored to have created the centaurs, wemics, and hybsils from similar spirit beings throughout Merrobouros as well, though whether these were truly transformations or migrations through spontaneously forming portals is unknown. However, the more common transformation of Lurue was to combine the intellect of a spirit with the animal which it possessed, creating many intelligent, talking animals throughout the realms.
Over time, small migrations of beings from Faerie also made their way to this area of the realms, or spontaneously awoke due to interactions between Faerie and Toril. They were attracted to the pristine forest, and soon dryads, treants, satyrs, korreds,thorns and various other woodland fey were drawn to the area. It is unknown if Relkath of the Infinite Branches was such a migrant fey, or whether he was some powerful primordial born of the primeval power of the Forest. What is known is that he became a powerful factor within this area of Merrobouros, intending to spread his forest and quell any that would do it harm. Relkath began to form a kingdom of sorts for plant beings and fey in what today would be known as the Yuirwood, transforming sentient beings of other races into Wood Woads (MM3), Volodnis (see unapproachable east), and Woodlings and setting them to protect the forests in which they resided. Though his strength lay in the the area that would become the Yuirwood, through these servants Relkath spread his influence throughout what would become eastern Faerun.
~ -34500 DR
The threat of the Sarrukh is one that was enough to draw the attention of all the people's of the Spirit Realms. Their expansion into the area that would one day become Thay was very eventful, as they awoke great powers of fire and magma. To the forest dwelling people of the Spirit Realms, there was no greater threat, but to the being known as Relkath of the Infinite Branches, there was no greater blasphemy. The Sarrukh build small, heavily defensible fortifications that descend into the earth to prevent their being overrun by plant invaders. It is rumored that they fielded forces of flame salamanders and firenewts against the beings of the spirit realm, but they found themselves being defeated by Relkath's illusion-enhanced guerrilla warfare tactics. Sarrukh expansion into the Spirit Realm grinds to a halt, so they decide to try to build a second front to the north. Within a vast network of naturally occurring caverns, the Sarrukh secretly establish a foothold in what will eventually become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos. They begin binding powerful beings of elemental power to their will, and corrupting their essential nature with magics intended to make them more powerful. Building a portal to connect their holdings in the Priador/Thay to Narathmault/Dun-Tharos, the Sarrukh released a surprise assault on the northern portion of the Spirit Realms that sets the forest aflame. The Sarrukh then drew upon their powers of necromancy to refill their army with undead, or as the peoples of the Spirit Realms saw them, perversions of their ancestors. In their pride, the Sarrukh did not realize the fury they had awoken. The Sarrukh found themselves not only being pushed back, but actively sacrificed on impromptu altars setup in reverence to Relkath, Magnar, Fenris, and other powerful primordial beings found in the Spirit Realms. The Sarrukh sought to embed themselves within their underdark fortress that would become Narathmault, only to have the portal that would have allowed them to flee being destroyed. The slaughter of the Sarrukh was bloody, vicious, and thoroughly without mercy. The rituals employed by their slayers tainted their souls, such that they would never be accepted by their deities and would be confined to haunt the halls of their fortress to the end of days.
~ -34450 DR
Its unknown if they came from elsewhere in Faerun or from Faerie, or both, but the mostly deforested area that is now known as Thay attracts a large population of centaurs and hybsil. The hybsil spread themselves throughout the Spirit Realms, but also find themselves frequent targets of the gnoll, wolfwere, and quaggoth tribes in the area. The hybsil do find themselves cooperating with the plant kingdom ruled over by Relkath of the Infinite branches. The centaurs make no allegiance with any of these groups, but they do seek to live in harmony with nature, and as a result Relkath cedes the lands that the settle upon to them, so long as they serve as a buffer against the incursions of southern interlopers. The worship of Skerrit the Forester grows in the Spirit Realms.
~ -32000 DR
Araushnee and Fenmarel Mestarine hunt a powerful primordial spider known as Chupoclops (named for the sound its gnashing mandibles made when it was excited or feasting) within the realm of Faerie. They manage to chase this being to the world of Toril, a world of little interest to either deity at the time, and a world upon which they are blocked from entry. Chupoclops finds itself severely weakened and buries itself within the former Sarrukh stronghold that would become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos.... a place filled with the ghosts of the fallen Sarrukh. Chupoclops begins feeding upon these souls, slowly building its strength back. Chupoclops also uncovers Sarrukh rituals of transformation and begins building up a small army of ettercaps by combining giant spiders and captured spirits.
~ -31800 DR
Chupoclops had feasted upon all of the Sarrukh ghosts and required new spirits for sustenance. Unlike Fenris, Magnar, and Felidae, this primordial spider was a glutton for the raw power provided by the spirits of the land. Within a few decades, most of the Telthors found within the Spirit Realms were a victim of Chupoclops growing hunger, and many fled eastward to escape. Chupoclops then prepared a modified version of the Sarrukh transformation ritual, one that would turn sentient plant beings into night twists. Using Chupoclops own power over nightmares, the night twists would cause deadly dreams to anyone within miles of it, thus causing cases of mass death, and thereby freeing up their souls to feed upon. Using his links to the dream world, Chupoclops would then absorb the soul upon its demise. Unfortunately, these night twists could only exist in swampy environments, so it was necessary to draw its victims within range. Chupoclops' ettercaps were sent out to draw the ire of nearby tribes, only to lead them on merry chases through web entrapped swamps. Eventually, their pursuers would decide to camp for the night, and in the night they would succumb to their nightmares. The ettercaps would then bring the gathered bodies of the fallen to the night twist that it might feed upon the flesh.
The quaggoth population is particularly taken aback by this tactic. As a result, they retreat deeper within their caves, as the surface world seems to be filled with death whenever they go to sleep. They find the underdark caverns and soon begin to dominate this sparsely populated environment. The catfolk and wolfwere populations are decimated and never recover. Much of the lammasu population flees westward. Only the gnoll population manages to rebuild its numbers in the centuries that follow.
This transformation of plant beings naturally drew the ire of Relkath of the Infinite Branches. Unfortunately, Chupoclops had grown too powerful to kill, so Relkath had to pursue other options. Calling upon the aid of the Seelie Court, they banished Chupoclops from Toril and bound him to the ethereal plane, hoping that he would weaken over time. As part of the banishment, Chupoclops was forced to eject many undigested spirits, which became bound to the underground vault in which it had made its residence. They killed many of the ettercaps, though many escape to the wilderness. The night twists are considered innocent victims of Chupoclops' machinations, and they are instead petrified in hopes that they can one day discover a ritual to reverse the damage done to them.
Fearing that another great evil would take up residence within the underground residence that would become Narathmault, Relkath of the Infinite Branches leaves behind his kingdom to the south to rebuild the forest over this great subterannean evil. Relkath however has expended much of his power and must spend time to recover.
~ -31000 DR
The Tearfall occurs, creating the inner sea and destroying much of Relkath of the Infinite Branches' kingdom in what would be Aglarond later. Many fey and plant beings die in the aftermath. The population of Telthors (fey spirits) around what will become Aglarond, Ashanath and Rashemen begin to rise again. Relkath suffers heavily, and some believe that he has finally gone insane. It is whispered that Relkath begins binding the Telthors of what will become Aglarond to its soil in an attempt to regrow the damage done by the tearfall. However, little is seen of Relkath after this.
-30000 DR War of the Seldarine: Araushnee is cast down into the Demonweb Pits, where she becomes the demon-goddess Lolth.
~ -27000 DR
The fey open new portals from Faerie to Toril in order to combat the threat of the dragons. An elven deity considered an outcast amongst the Seldarine, Fenmaril Mestarine sends a tribe of green elves known as the Lythari to Toril to inhabit the lands that would become the Unapproachable East.
The Lythari discover a land of powerful telthors, fey spirits, including an entire pack of ghostly wolves. Using powerful fey magics, these green elves bond themselves with these wolf spirits and gain the ability to shapechange into wolves at will. Other more solitary elves bond themselves to the spirits of great lynx spirits. Some elves within the tribe, seeing the feral nature overtaking their brothers, break away and begin bonding their spirits with more noble animals such as stags, owls, eagles, bears, griffins, etc... These break away elves begin worshipping the being known today as Lurue.
~ -26400 DR
The dark Archfey known as Cegilune, the hag queen, discovers the old Sarrukh portal beneath what will become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos. Attuning it to the realm of Faerie, she sends through a large number of hags to spread her influence on Toril. The hags find the tortured spirits left behind by the battle between the Seelie Court and Chupoclops centuries before. The hags then acquire goblin slaves to serve and protect their community, though whether these goblins came from Faerie or from other areas of Faerun is unknown. This society of hags becomes known as the Great Covey of Bheuristahl.
~ -26350 DR
The Lythari tribe of elven shapechangers comes into conflict with the local gnoll population, who have taken up the worship of the fiend Yeenoghu after coming into contact with their cousins from Western Faerun. The gnolls ally themselves with the Great Covey of Bheuristahl, who begin trading larvae to Yeenoghu in return for establishing the means to transfer small handfuls of abyssal fiends to Toril. The hags breed with these fiends, producing particularly powerful hagspawn and hags.
The Lythari initially were winning the conflict, but eventually they are pushed further and further east. Some Lythari escape to the western realms utilizing the natural portal network to the lands of Faerie.
~ -26300 DR
The Great Covey of Bheuristahl forms an alliance of convenience with the growing giant kingdom of Ostoria. The Bheur and annis hags begin mating with the giants energetically, using their magical abilities to deceive the giants into believing they were mating with other members of their tribes. The number of hagspawn in their community increases exponentially.
In studying the secrets of the Sarrukh transformation magics and dream images sent by Cegilune, the Hags develop a ritual to turn the tortured spirits in Narathmault into larvae. Using dark rituals of sacrifice involving captured elemental beings, these larvae are turned into fiends. The fiends are then bound to protect the growing hag community. Other rituals are developed to transform powerful hags into night hags, using the blood of Chupoclops to instill these new hags with powers to become ethereal and give people nightmares. Chupoclops freely provides this blood in return for sacrifices, and its blood is found to be useful for many other things. These night hags begin sacrificing sentient beings to create more larvae, which they use to further grow their community.
~ -26000 DR
Ogres are born into the world via Othea mating with Vaprak. Viewed as an aberration by the giants of Ostoria, the Great Covey of Bheuristahl welcomes these “abominations” to live amongst them. While this does not cause war with Ostoria, it does strain relations between the two societies. These ogres replace their goblin predecessors as the millitant arm of the covey, and the goblins become more of a slave and cattle population. Many goblins escape over time into the surrounding mountains and forest and begin breeding aggressively.
~ -25900
The Great Covey of Bheuristahl uncovers a powerful form of entrapped beings known as Vestiges. Through the formation of pacts with these beings, the hags learn to share their perception with these entrapped beings in return for power.
~ -25800 DR
A small group of dragons take up residence in the mountains and forests of what will one day become Impiltur. Through fear and awe, they turn the local population of goblins to their service. Through breeding, they create a more intelligent, less fearful and stronger version of goblin.
~ -25700 DR
A powerful solar named Balam, tasked with stopping the sacrifice of sentient beings by the gods of good, arrives on Toril and elicits the aid of the remaining lammasu population. They turn their focus upon the Great Covey of Bheuristahl and begin planning an assault. Unfortunately, they underestimated the power of their foes. The blood of lammasu stained the halls of Bheuristahl/Narathmault/Dun-Tharos and any captured are sacrificed to the greater glory of Cegilune. Their petrified hearts become powerful heartstones which further empower the rulers of Bheuristahl. In a powerful ritual reputedly led by the great hag goddess Cegilune herself, Balam is sacrificed in a ritual that both darkens and twists its spirit, entrapping Balam in the Place where Vestiges Reside.
~ -25500 DR
The dragons living in what will become Impiltur decide it is time to expand their territory. Their goblinoid population has grown large and strains the environment in which it grows. The lands have grown deforested. They set their eyes upon their ancient task masters, the Great Covey of Bheuristahl. The assault is sudden and bloody, overwhelming the defenses of the hags with sheer numbers. The hags, seeing their inevitable fall, use magical means to flee throughout the multiverse. Several dragons take up residence within the depths of Bheuristahl and begin studying its ancient secrets. It is believed that at least one dragon delves into the dark arts of pact binding. Rumors of draconic breeding with captured fiends are also unconfirmed. The haunted halls of Bheuristahl become a staging ground between the giants of Ostoria and the dragons of Toril.
~ -25200 DR to -25000 DR
The dragons in the haunted halls of Bheuristahl are assaulted by a powerful force of giants intent upon ejecting them. The giants come from the nearby Ironfang Keep. The assault is a surprise to the dragons and goblinoids living within the halls. They are slain brutally and efficiently. The giants claim the upper portion of the halls, but the superstitious giants build strong barriers to block off the lesser depths. Small raids between the Dragons of what will become Impiltur and the giants of Ostoria continue for the next two hundred years, until the elves construct the Dracorage Mythal. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 22 Nov 2013 : 09:12:25
Well i editted the story a bit so that the Ethereal Plane is involved as well, and give the lythari a larger role.
I think i mentioned in it that some of the primordials of the forest came from Faerie, so Fenmaril Mestarine could easily have come from Faerie around -35000 DR and so could have met Araushnee during this time and dallied with her.
I dont know if anyone picked it up, but in my view the primordials (archfey also being primordials) are the progenitors of all the lesser races, maybe not having children directly, but certainly creating them in some fashion.
So Corellon and a number of his consorts are responsible for creating the elves in Faerie. Araushnee i noted as being a sire (i dont know what the female word for it is - siress perhaps) of at least some of the Green Elves so her being an ancestor of the darkelves (which are a branch of greenelves from what i understand) is what makes them turned into the drow later.
That would mean the lythari should also be turned into drow but because Fenmaril Mestarine merged with a Lythar warrior and passed on his esence or genes however you want to picture it, i figure this protects them and removes them from Lolth's taint.
It was just an idea anyway.
One further idea regardin elves, archfey (corellon and other archfey) being the creators of elves may also explain why we have 3 branches of elves in the beginning - sun, moon, and green (wild) - Angharrdt is a tripartite goddess, probably representing the three archfey (before they were deities) that were responsible for each creating a subrace of elves with Corellon.
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 23:52:48
I'm enjoying this fellows. Bravo.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 21:27:56
One problem here. Chupoclops first gets ejected by the gods to the ethereal for eating spirits/ghosts, because they can't kill him. Later he's killed on the ethereal by the heroes (my presumption here is that he got weaker on the ethereal with less to feed upon). Still, a very good attempt, and I think I'll copy it down, put in some extras, repost it, and let you tear apart my additions. The main thing I want to focus on is adding some useful pieces for modern day players to use. Oh, and I do like the addition of Fenmarel Mestarine. Didn't he and Lolth fool around at one point too prior to her fooling around with Corellon (so prior to her fall and possibly during this time)? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 20:46:46
The Spirit Realms -35000 DR
Not a traditional Realm or Empire or Kingdom in any sense humans would understand. The realm is populated by the Fey creatures – not the LeShay creator race – interlopers from the Plane of Faerie that arrived through portals across Toril.
Satyrs, Centaurs, Uldra, Dryads, Nixies, Pixies, all many of creatures tied to nature arrive through these portals in steady flows appearing in the Greater Riildath forest that stretched from Impiltur all the way to Aglarond and Ashanath, maybe even extending into the Hordelands.
A number of powerful primordials also migrated to the Greater Riildath from Faerie or were born to the forest by the planet itself; Relkath of the Infinite Branches (a treant), Magnar the Bear, Zandilar, Elikarashae and the Simbul are the only ones whose names are known.
These primordial creatures spawned a number of lesser creatures and beasts in their own likeness that enriched the Greater Riildath.
In those days; before the empires of the Sarrukh, and the humans, and other Creator Races, there were no Outer Planes, no ideals, no belief, in short no gods. Death was not commonplace as nowadays and when a being died his spirit lingered for a time before being absorbed back into the land (creating spirit infused locations, ley lines, etc).
The lesser beasts; children of the primordials, were little more than the common animals we know today, but they would be possessed by the spirits of the dead and thereby gain a sentience, a merging of two minds with two memories but it’s own distinct personality.
This same situation unfolded all over Faerun, until the birth of the first intelligent races, the Creator Races. Those who brought Intelligence and Reason into the world and the gods of Faerun and the pantheons. These Creator Races spread across western Faerun, forcing out the spirit and fey creatures; using the land as material and tool, rather than living with it.
Still in the eastern Spirit Realms the Fey persisted, strengthened by the influx of Fey and spirit refugees from other lands.
Meanwhile on another plane; the Faerie Plane, a primordial creature; secretly tainted by the chaos of the Abyss, known as Araushnee, battled a powerful and ancient monster known as Chupoclops (named for the sound its gnashing mandibles made when it was excited or feasting).
For weeks they fought, until finally Araushnee banished Chupoclops from Faerie forever. The powerful Chupoclops was supposedly exiled to the planet Toril, where it was thought he would starve without the raw life energy of the Faerie Plane to infuse him.
Unknown to all Chupoclops lost willingly and in exile took with him a plant twisted by Araushnee; called Night Twist. This plant would collect spirits and allow Chupoclops to feed and survive outside of his Faerie home.
Chupoclops entered Toril in the Greater Riildath and immediately burrowed himself deep into the dirt to hide from the other Fey. There, secluded and isolated from the rest of the world he waited, watched, and feasted as his Night Twists began bulging with spirit energy as they absorbed any spirits that came near.
-30000 DR
Back in Faerie, Araushnee’s taint was discovered a battle broke out between her forces and the Seldarine and she was exiled from Faerie and cast into the Abyss as a forgotten child returning to her demonic home. She lost sight of her beloved green elf children she sired with Corellon and was quickly forgotten by all.
Shamed by their sire’s exile, the Lythar clan of green elves retreated to Toril; led by the a primordial (archfey) known as Rillifane Ralathil, through the same portal that Chupoclops had been exiled through.
On Toril the Lythar found a lush vibrant forest much like Faerie full of exotic Fey creatures and spirit creatures. Feeling a natural affinity for the wild and free wolves of the forest the Lythar allowed themselves to be possessed by wolf spirits and some gained wolf like natures because of it.
However there was a growing unease among the spirits and Fey of the Riildath, their numbers were depleting rapidly and many of their number had already fled to the east. The Lythar also experienced nightmares whenever they entered reverie and members of their tribe would suddenly die in their sleep.
So the Lythar and the remaining spirit creatures and Fey of the forest decided to act. They traced the disappearances to a tunnel in the middle of the Riildath, they approached the primordial rulers of the great forest; Relkath the treant, magnar the bear, Fenmaril Mestarine the Lonewolf, Zandilar the Dancer, The Simbul, Elikarashae the huntress.
These six warriors and their Lythar and Fey allies were led by the primordial (archfey) Rillifane and in the tunnels below brought furious battle to Chupoclops. One by one the primordials of the Riildath were brought low until only Rillifane and Fenmaril remained.
Just at the lowest moment when Chupoclops' victory seemed certain, the heroes unleashed their plan. The Lythar elders and Rillifane himself had all this time been performing a ritual which would remove the Night Twists from time. Now that the primordials were dead, their ghosts in the ethereal plane attacked Chupoclops who; being a creature of spirits and nightmares, was equally present in both planes.
Chupoclops now faced a battle on two fronts and started to founder. In his rage he struck down Fenmaril Mestarine whose ethereal spirit then possessed the strongest Lythar ally he could find and using his material plane body changed shape into a great wolf and dealt the final blow to Chupoclops.
Rillifane absorbing the energies of the slain primordial swirling around the cavern was elevated to godhood, and as a reward for their sacrifice resurrected the primordials and bound them to the wood the had fought so hard to protect.
As for Fenmaril, he had come to respect the Lythar so much, and they him. Their belief in this hero warrior caused him to ascend to godhood as well. However his possession of the Lythar warrior imbued Fenmaril with a more elf like form and persona, likewise the Lythar warrior was more wolflike and discovered he could change shape into several wolflike forms at will. Over time this ability was passed onto his descendants and now all Lythar are the lythari; elves able to take on the form of wolves.
The Lythar elders, realising there were none left who could destroy the now bloated soul engorged demon trees, so cut them off from the natural world and froze them in time, but the magic they performed was so powerful it required a sacrifice of all the Lythar elders, thus the lythari lost their High Magic spellcasting traditions forever as there were none left to teach them.
And so passed the time of the Spirit Realm in the Riildath. Shortly afterwards the dragons arrived, building kingdoms in the mountains and the forest and bringing with them their human servants and others creating hobgoblin servants.
These dragons warred amongst each other and the humans and the hobgoblins fought each other for their masters. Then the elves in the west created the dracorage mythal and brought an end to the dragon overlords. The dragons scorched the eastern part of the forest in their madness and the freed hobgoblins and humans deforested it further. The eastern portion of the Greater Riildath disappeared leaving only the Yuirwood where the primordial protectors remained.
Finally Lolth rediscovered Faerun after millennia in the Abyss, and she had never forgotten her ally Chupoclops. Her servant Wendonai was dispatched to discover what happened to Chupoclops. His vestige was found in the cavern known as Narathmault but the Night Twist trees were of more interest to Lolth.
Wendonai and the dark elves set about draining the trees in a dark ritual that took 100 years to perform. At the end the souls of the spirit creatures and the Fey that had become trapped in the trees were sacrificed to Lolth, and using their power Lolth forged her own plane in the Abyss (were souls are wealth and power) and ascended to godhood.
There we go that's my attempt, no dates because they are meaningless for that far back. Surprisingly some of the above is based on real lore. The lythari are rumoured to have been green elves at one point. I managed to get 7 heroes for Sleyvas all of whom died and ascended. The Yuirwood was at one point part of the Riildath forest and so they would definitely have a connection.
Hope people enjoyed it, I finally decided to keep Chupoclops' name when I realised it could be the sound a mouth makes, kinda makes it more creepy.
Editted 22/11/13 to include references to the Ethereal Plane in the fight with Chupoclops, and give the lythari more of a role in the battle. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 20:34:33
Ah, ok, so no officially named dragons or kingdoms. I do like that the hobgoblins come AFTER this time we're talking about (its why I specifically always said goblins). One of the things running through my brain was whether bugbears were some kind of goblin/quaggoth offshoot OR possibly a case of goblins binding with bear spirits (more inclined to the former). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 19:50:45
The dragon kingdom piece was from me picking George's brains about hobgoblin origins. He said that hobgoblins were created in the unapproachable east by dragon overlords who bred with and mixed other races with goblins to create a loyal disciplined super warrior.
Then going from Georges lore on impiltur we have the earliest historical reference to hobgoblins in the unapproachable east at c-9500 DR. In fact quite a lot of the history I have used is based from lore by George Krashos, but since Impiltur is his baby its as good as it can get in my view.
I'm busy writing up the history in brief so I will post it soon. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 16:56:02
just wondering to save me the hunting, what dragon holdings in the area did you find? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 16:15:48
Very good points, i figure all of this stuff with the primordials takes place long before the sarrukh empires appear or indeed any other empires or races appear in any number probably a period before the time of thunder.
I have found some lore in Georges thread where the entire area from Damara all the way to Thay was one giant forest. In fact it probably spread into the hordelands as well since i remember reading that place used to be a paradise as well until something changed it.
So chances are all of Toril was like this the unapproachable east at some point in time.
Now the humans, sarrukh, batrachi, aeree, all centre around western faerun because it was more hospitable. The unapproachable east is very very in land and so much more prone to extreme weather conditions (think russian winters) so that is definitely gonna keep the amphibians and the reptiles out for a while.
So the creator races grow in the west and push out the spirit creatures but never really gain a foot hold in the unapproachable east in any great number during the days of thunder because of the environment.
So before and during the days of thunder is probably when this spirit realms stuff is present (before in the west and before and during in the east). Obviously the spirit realms and the empires of the more magic hungry creator races are not going to coexist so the spirits either get killed, die of, disappear, whatever spirits do (maybe they evaporate) or go eastwards.
During the days of Thunder there is still no one around to really interfere with them. Its not until the time of dragons that other beings start to appear. There are dragon kingdoms noted in the area during the time of dragons and there are also a number of human tribes wandering the great forest. The sarrukh also have a settlement in Thay where they harass the humans (according to George's lore anyway).
So the spirit realms could still have existed during the time of dragons. Indeed it appears that the Yuirwood was named after the Yuir, and the gods detailed in that forest are beings the humans worshipped, so it looks like during the humans came to worship these primordial beings (Relkath and Magnar the Bear etc - got it right that time).
The spirits are then dying off thanks to Chupoclops (someone think of a new name for me please, i'm terrible at coming up with new names - although the spanish name El-Chuppacabra i think is something to do with the devil and sounds similar so maybe it isnt all bad). The humans then begin cutting down the trees - they might come into conflict with the lythari who will most likely be there.
It isnt until -10400 DR that any other traditional elves arrive in the are and by then all that is left is the Riildath (Rawlinswood and forest of Lethyr joined together) and the Yuirwood, all other pieces of the forest have been removed.
It kind of all fits, might need a lot of work to get a broad history going, but since there is no history before -10400 DR we cant step on anyones toes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 15:55:40
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have to admit it is blatantly stolen from Narnia, but i would prefer them to be less fluffy and more gritty talking animals.
Is there a reason why i shouldnt include Magnar the Bear and Relkath of the Infinite Branches (im assuming he is a big tree person), because if there is a lore reason for them not being there then i would rather know than not.
Fenris may have been a good thing in the past, eating the malevolent spirits, but over time either he became tainted or the people just became afraid of a big nasty looking spirit eating wolf and so the stories make him out to be bad.
I have been thinking about the lythari a bit. They are definitely elves and they supposedly came from faerie before all the others (or maybe with the wild elves) which i am fine with.
I was just thinking as to why the lythari are in the east, with all the other spirit creatures, and why they arent a big fan of the other elves, also why their bestial nature.
I was originally thinking they could have been some kind of servant of Lolth or Chupoclops, but its probably just that they were a normal clan of wild elves (clan Lythar) that came to the unapproachable east. They had a particular affinity for wolves and didnt object to being possessed by wolf spirits and so over time that manifested itself in the ability to change into a wolf.
Its a bit of a dull theory to their origins but thats all i have.
Rillifane Ralathil does seem an ideal god to come to the unapproachable east.
And since i consider all the elves to have been originally primordial interlopers from Faerie, maybe Rillifane Ralathil came to Toril first with the wild elves (he is their patron). He was at one point left out of the elven pantheon i believe in maybe 2nd edition and put in later so this separate arrival and destination point may explain that.
If Rillifane was a primordial elf (or maybe even a treant type creature) who then set about subduing the primordial spirit creatures into serving him then like Uthgar that could explain his means of ascension and his servitor creatures.
Oh, no, I was just saying you wrote Relkath the bear... and its Magnar the bear and Relkath of the Infinite Branches. I picture both as primordial. Rillifane subduing them as you say makes total sense.
I do like the idea that the Lythari were wild elves that began absorbing the spirits of wolves. You know, it'd be interesting if some of the other races we discussed weren't created in a similar way (hybsil coming from immigrant fey bonding with deer, wolfweres actually being wolves who bonded with the spirits of sentient beings, quaggoths being people that bonded with bear spirits, catfolk with cat spirits, etc...). However, the Lythari had a better understanding of magic and thereby gained control over the bonded form, whereas these other races didn't. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 15:04:52
I haven't had time to really read-through this thread (but I now see its something VERY worth doing!) - I've only perused/speed-rad through some of it to get the gist of what is going on. I'll give it a fine reading later today.
But for now, let me just say Dazzlerdal that the name shouldn't bother you. I assume that most (nearly all?) 'cosmic beings' (outsiders) have multiple names, and are known by various aliases though-out the prime worlds.
So just because something has a silly or weird-sounding name in FR doesn't meant that is its 'True Name' - in fact, we probably don't really know the real names of anything in the Outer Planes. Thats just what some mortal way back (on Toril) named it long ago.
ASIDE:
I look at these things a bit differently then Ed Greenwood does (so I am veering from canon here) - I think a name is something that doesn't really matter at all. Its just a random sound some creature makes, and has no real meaning what-so-ever. So when something 'responds' to its name being said - be it a god, a Chosen (exarch), fiend, etc - its really responding to the intent. The human (and other sentient) mind attaches a certain energy to the spoken word, and this energy is what is detected by all these beings.
Thus, if I say 'Torm' and mean the god, the deity hears it. But if I am talking to my friend Torm, the god does NOT hear it, because gods DON'T HAVE EARS!!! They are great big globs of energy (that humans 'see' in an avatar form), and they respond to the psychic energy attached to their name.
By the same token, I could say "Gracklepudding!" and Torm will respond, if (in my demented state) I actually though that was the god's name. Its all about intent, and not what is actually spoken (EXCEPT in the case of primal languages, which is what all 'True Names' are written in). What this mans is that creatures with no ability to vocalize stuff can still 'call upon' an outsider, but if this is not natural to the creature, then its intent is 'muddied' by its own perceptions. In other words, if you are gagged/silenced/etc and can't speak your god's name, then just thinking about him (usually) won't work, because YOU don't think it will. This limitation would never happen to something like an illithid.
Basically, it all comes down to 'faith'.
So for your campaign, just say Chupoclops (sounds like a scary, Spanish Cyclops... or breakfast cereal) is some odd name found in some obscure text about it, and then call it whatever you want. Fiendish types would enjoy all the confusion this sort of thing causes, and Elder Evils should especially ebrace it, and have the greatest variety of aliases to choose from (since they've been around the longest). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 15:03:31
You know, the more I think on it, the more I'd transfer this spirit culture down into the Shaar as well. You didn't have the inner sea in these early times, so it could easily be extended. I don't see the Sarrukh holdings in the area as being all encompassing, so much as the first beginnings of "cities" where populations gathered. Not sure if the spirits would have still been there when the Ilythiiri came to those lands, as the populations that were there may have started worshipping gods by then (especially the gnolls may have started worshipping Yeenoghu, since there was apparently some conflicts between the Aereee and gnolls). Picturing the cultures there similar but different (centaurs, wemics, the elephant like Loxo, gnolls).
On the Wendonai, Eltab, Fraz, and Orcus links... I'd look at it like this. Wendonai served Lolth, then served Eltab. Sounds like he switches sides as the wind blows. He may have revealed information to Fraz in an attempt to steal Eltab's layer from him. Fraz may have then twisted the ritual to deny Wendonai, binding Eltab's layer to the realms and creating the demoncysts. OR the ritual could have just gone wrong because the demons didn't really know what they were doing.
On Orcus' link to Narathmault, I see it like this... Wendonai leads the Ilythiiri of clan Sethomiir to Narathmault. They begin constructing a city there and Wendonai probably introduced them to a lot of demon lords at that time. They perhaps expand the depths of Narathmault to include new areas for practicing their craft in secrecy. One of these was Orcus (which probably pissed off the followers of Kiaransalee mind you). Later, the Narfellian peoples pick up worship of Orcus and other demon lords (possibly through discovery of Narathmault, which is where they build their capital). |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:34:08
I have to admit it is blatantly stolen from Narnia, but i would prefer them to be less fluffy and more gritty talking animals.
Is there a reason why i shouldnt include Magnar the Bear and Relkath of the Infinite Branches (im assuming he is a big tree person), because if there is a lore reason for them not being there then i would rather know than not.
Fenris may have been a good thing in the past, eating the malevolent spirits, but over time either he became tainted or the people just became afraid of a big nasty looking spirit eating wolf and so the stories make him out to be bad.
I have been thinking about the lythari a bit. They are definitely elves and they supposedly came from faerie before all the others (or maybe with the wild elves) which i am fine with.
I was just thinking as to why the lythari are in the east, with all the other spirit creatures, and why they arent a big fan of the other elves, also why their bestial nature.
I was originally thinking they could have been some kind of servant of Lolth or Chupoclops, but its probably just that they were a normal clan of wild elves (clan Lythar) that came to the unapproachable east. They had a particular affinity for wolves and didnt object to being possessed by wolf spirits and so over time that manifested itself in the ability to change into a wolf.
Its a bit of a dull theory to their origins but thats all i have.
Rillifane Ralathil does seem an ideal god to come to the unapproachable east.
And since i consider all the elves to have been originally primordial interlopers from Faerie, maybe Rillifane Ralathil came to Toril first with the wild elves (he is their patron). He was at one point left out of the elven pantheon i believe in maybe 2nd edition and put in later so this separate arrival and destination point may explain that.
If Rillifane was a primordial elf (or maybe even a treant type creature) who then set about subduing the primordial spirit creatures into serving him then like Uthgar that could explain his means of ascension and his servitor creatures.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:13:39
sounds goods so far, except Relkath of the Infinite Branches and Magnar the Bear (2 separate entities). You know, I was trying to think of some "wolf being" that the Lythari, wolfwere, and fox women people of the unapproachable east would have propitiated.... I'm so stupid.... Fenris. I'm already placing him there. He's running around devouring spirits, but not like a glutton. The living may have even seen him as a good thing for doing this (except when he took out their ancestors), because maybe he favored spirits that were a threat to the living. They may have also propitiated him out of fear. Its also noted that Rillifane Ralathil is served by "great spirits" Eagle, Raven and wolf... they may have been here as well.... or they may have been subsumed in other areas of the realms.
Oh, and I do like the idea of the spirits possessing animals to make them more intelligent. That's a good twist. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 14:07:42
So it really was Fraz'Urb-Luu who taught the Narfelli to bind Eltab. I just read through all of George's posts here looking for the reference and the last king of Narfell was a half fiend spawn of Fraz whereas the other previous kings were Orcus worshippers.
So Wendonai must have been working for Fraz'Urb-Luu in secret despite openly professing allegiance to Eltab. Soneillion is doing a similar thing from what i understand and given demons chaotic and evil nature i dont see loyalty being a common trait for fiends so switching sides probably happens quite a lot.
That Wendonai was able to get meaningful information out of Eltab that allowed Fraz'Urb-Luu to instruct the narfelli on how to bind him is surprising but Wendonai is a Balor that managed to turn and entire nation of elves to evil so he must be a master manipulator.
So if Wendonai serves Fraz, then Orcus must have discovered the Narathmault by accident thanks to his Narfelli followers (i need Orcus to know about Narathmault for my Telos and Zhengyi link in Vaasa), which is fine, things happen by accident sometimes, its not always masterminded by evil beings. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Nov 2013 : 08:59:30
Muck in as many bizarre theories as you like, i was a bit sceptical of the whol Chupoclops thing (mostly because of the name, it sounds wrong for an elder evil - might have to change the name), but if it works then it works you cant argue with that, and since we have absolutely nothing to go on for what the unapproachable east was like we can do anything.
Now i have been doing a bit of research into the ancient realms and it looks like there were a few dragon kings in the unapproachable east as well as the rest of faerun so all this faerie spirit world stuff has to have taken place before the giants (who occupied the cold lands), and before the dragons.
Now there is no mention of any of the creator races this far to the east (they all seem to be centred around central and southern faerun or maztica in the case of the aerie). So some time during the days of Thunder seems a good fit for when the spirit realms ruled the unapproachable east.
Obviously to fit in with my lolth and Chupoclops connection i am going to tie this down to before Araushnee was cast into the abyss (because that then allows me to link narathmault all the way through to the Nar), but thats just me.
So a long time ago before the war with the Seldarine the unapproachable east (everything east of the earthfast and galena mountains) was filled with a multitude of fey and spirit creatures. When creatures died; in the absence of an after life, they became wandering spirits that then possessed other creatures or merged with the land over time.
I figure the whole area would be mist enshrouded - a little bit like the highlands of scotland. Not so bad that you cant see where you are going, but enough to make the place feel mystical - put it down to the spirit creatures and leaking ethereal stuff rather than any environmental property.
There were also quite a few primordials running around, Relkath the Bear, Zandilar the Dancer, any obscure ancient deity reference in the east for which we have no information would probably be an ancient primordial fey creature or animal. These primordials create many of their realms bound lesser children (which become bears, and satyrs for instance). And as i said before when these creatures die they become spirits or merge back with the land.
Then along comes Chupoclops through a portal into a huge cavern in what we call Narathmault (probably a corruption of Narath and Vault), motivated or ordered by Lolth to come and eat up all those lovely spirit creatures. She also sends with him a collection of Night Twist trees to help him collect all those lovely spirits; whenever anyone dies within the vicinity (this vicinity increases as the tree increases in size) then their spirit is absorbed by the tree.
Over a few millennia the fey and spirit creatures notice that something is wrong and gradually they start to leave, heading eastwards to Rashemen.
Those that are left in what we call Damara, Impiltur, the Great Dale, and Narfell decide to find out what is killing them off. They beseech their primordial protectors and parents to save them from Chupoclops.
The primordials (there can be seven if you like but i tend to ignore numbers in ancient tales) charge off to kill Chupoclops. Some die, some ascend to godhood upon their return. Either way the primordials are gone and so are the spirits leaving the land open for the dragons, giants, elves, hobgoblins, and then humans to take it without anyone knowing that anything ever happened here.
Chupoclops remains as a vestige and the Night Twists, unable to be destroyed by the lesser fey and now bestial animals (i figure the possessing spirits gave the regular animals intelligence; a beneficial symbiosis), the fey imprison and petrify the bloated soul engorged trees.
Wendonai and his darkelves turn up and drain the trees dry using the spirit energy to catapult Lolth to godhood.
Later Orcus and the Nars turn up and learn about binding creatures from Chupoclops and his vestige.
And thats my history of the east in brief. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 20 Nov 2013 : 21:25:13
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gotcha. Yeah, they both cause nightmares, but as you say it sounds more like Kezef scares people that view him... where Chupoclops was causing nightmares without necessarily being there (maybe, that's up to interpretation... but it does work with the night twist idea). Personally, I don't think a lot of people will like the idea of turning a giant spider into the chaos hound, especially when the Chupoclops entry points out that its corpse is still on the astral. Also, people automatically correlate Fenris and Kezef together (both hounds, both ate Tyr's hand, both were chained by a magical chain... and some people note Loki and Cyric were similar and its Cyric that's involved with Kezef's release). So, the Chupoclops is Kezef thing feels forced, but the Kezef is Fenris changed by Jergal is more palatable.
You're right.
I was trying to avoid having another being too similar to Kezef around but there is no need to.
Your work and that of dazzlerdal with the fey/spirits/spiritfolk, Chupoclops and the unorthodox tribal society that then migrated to the east ... well it's everything well done, fits nicely with other bits of lore and the "theme" of the area so there is no need of me mucking it with bizarre theories. |
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