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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2013 :  15:42:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Just found this quote in GHoTR

quote:
–10400 DR: Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [–10000], “the Dark Pit,” at the site of present day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.


Why was this place in the Riildath a place of great evil (before the arrival of the soon to be drow, and before the coming of the Nar and their worshipping of Orcus and binding of Eltab.

Anyone have any other info as to what was in this place that only Wendonai appeared to know about?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2013 :  21:46:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think they've ever revealed this. Given all of the evil found in this area later, its a very good question. I half wonder... was Zhengyi the Witch-King trying to extend his empire down to Dun-Tharos/Narathmault? Did Orcus want Zhengyi to go there? We also know that there was a powerful group of Kiaransalee followers in the galena mountains near here (the Legion of Vengeful Banshees from 2nd ed. Demi-human deities and the fallen Lolth city of V'elddrinnsshar which became the Acropolis of Thanatos).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2013 :  22:04:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its a very nasty place that's for sure.

Wendonai leads these darkelves here who become drow and are forced to leave.

The elves that moved into the Lethyr seal it up to prevent anyone from finding it.

The Nar kick the elves out of the Lethyr and plunder it for lore. They later bind Eltab with a few hints from Orcus.

Interestingly enough Wendonai converts from serving Lolth to serving Eltab, I wonder if Wendonai wasn't duping Eltab into thinking he served him whilst also serving Orcus and maybe even a few other nasty demon princes.

Finally George Krashos always mentions Fraz Urb Lu but I doubt there would ever be more than one demon prince confined to a material plane world.

I guess it will just be another of those unexplained throw away quotes that someone made and never got developed. It of course leaves me free to add any elder evil game ending creature I want in there.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2013 :  23:53:07  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as the creator of Narathmault, I could tell you my thoughts, but I prefer at this stage to let you guys come up with stuff.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  07:36:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well good. If we get free reign, then my thoughts can go wonky. Perhaps this area in the realms was actually held by hags long ago (it was this hag presence that spread all the way to Rashemen). I'd also have it that these hags were not uniformly the same, but there were many who held power over cold, death, and darkness, but more importantly they were masters of soul magic (later night hags knowledge of larvae and its uses draw upon these early teachings). Preferably these hags held sway over the ogres and goblins of the region. The hags were masters of binding beings to their will, and so they discovered pact magic and conjuration magic, as well as many of the foundations of necromancy. Perhaps more importantly, the hags worked to create spiritual servants (beings similar to ghosts) to serve them in a myriad of ways. It is rumored that they garnered the protection of Chupoclops, a primordial who feasted upon ghosts and created nightmares, by offering up sacrifices to it. It is whispered by some that the vestige known as Balam (a solar tasked with stopping the sacrifice of sentient beings) was actually captured by these hags and sacrificed to Cegilune deep within the Dark Pit that would become Narathmault, in an attempt by them to further understand the creation of vestiges and pact magic. This sacrifice was long and drawn out, and Balam called out to the gods who had sent him for aid. The hags used the power of their primordial captive to keep the gods at bay.

What exactly happened to this culture? Perhaps there was some conflict with the hill, stone, and/or frost giant communities nearby which led to war? Perhaps the primordial Chupoclops turned upon them? Perhaps they were involved with the death of Chupoclops(after all 4 of the 7 beings that assaulted Chupoclops were ghosts and 3 of the 7 were evil)? The idea that Chupoclops (a giant primordial spider who created nightmares) had some kind of link to the area and that later Lolth worshipping drow came here could be spun into something as well. Buried deep in Dun-Tharos are many of these secrets of soul magic, pact magic, etc... but they are not only hard to find, but almost impossible to understand by modern day scholars. The power of the hags was shattered and their numbers lessened considerably. Many of them fled to the outer planes to escape their enemies.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  07:49:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and to further the previous... Chupoclops becoming a vestige may have also been an act by these hags. I can see possibly some powerful ritual performed on the material plane and the ethereal plane in conjunction (since there were both ghosts and mortal beings involved in Chupoclops' demise). If it took a week and involved the absolute destruction of one member of the casting group each day, that would fit with the history of the week long struggle with one person "dying" every day.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  10:31:11  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well making up stuff entirely from scratch is not one of my strengths, I usually need a few hints or hooks to link together.

I like the stuff about hags and spirits. Was chupoclops your own creation or is it based on something already in the realms.

Given this whole areas very strong links to demon summoning I would personally try and link it to that (lolth and wendonai both being demons after all and eltab and orcus.
Im thinking maybe when orcus was alive (and possibly known as tenebrousby name), he visited faerun in its distant past.
Finding only fey and orcs and goblinoids he used them in his dastardly experiments but soon grew bored and returned home, but not before butchering almost every living creature in thr riildath.

Like I said, making up lore from scratch isnt one of my strengths.

Your turn George, any hints or are you just going to tell us the secret all in one

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  15:54:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that was just Krash 'gluing together some stray bits', yet again.

There are drow under Thay. The whole region is know for its 'fiendish connections'. I think he just married the drow there to the reason for those 'ancient, fiendish connections'.

Because like everything else (good) in FR, there are 'layers', and no matter how many you peel back, all you discover are more layers of secrets.

In my own musings about ancient Thay (some of which appear in the Impiltur thread), I have it where Thay was a centaur land in ancient times (between Narathmault and the coming of the Mulan). You can even see this on the canon map appearing on pg.49 of Lost Empires of Faerûn (the centaur tribes). This has nothing to do with the fiendish stuff - it was a simple matter of them being 'from' the Taan (hordlands) region, and driven from there by various other groups coming into that area (I also theorize that The Taan was the 'ancient stomping grounds' of the Fey Creators).

The funny thing is, when one listens to the centaur skalds singing of their ancient history and Thay, there is no mention of the High Plateau, only 'the plateau', which is obviously the first escarpment. Some sages chalk this up to centaurian history being inaccurate and vague on certain points (which is true), while others think there is something to it...

As an aside, I know that the entire plateau got raised-up in 4e. Is the whole thing the same height as the High Plateau now? And what happened to Undrek Thoz?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2013 12:49:30
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  18:16:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well making up stuff entirely from scratch is not one of my strengths, I usually need a few hints or hooks to link together.

I like the stuff about hags and spirits. Was chupoclops your own creation or is it based on something already in the realms.

Given this whole areas very strong links to demon summoning I would personally try and link it to that (lolth and wendonai both being demons after all and eltab and orcus.
Im thinking maybe when orcus was alive (and possibly known as tenebrousby name), he visited faerun in its distant past.
Finding only fey and orcs and goblinoids he used them in his dastardly experiments but soon grew bored and returned home, but not before butchering almost every living creature in thr riildath.

Like I said, making up lore from scratch isnt one of my strengths.

Your turn George, any hints or are you just going to tell us the secret all in one



Chupoclops is from the tome of magic. I chose him because the area is noted as an area of great evil prior to the Illythiiri arriving, but not necessarily an area of great "demonic" evil. These hags may have been around LONG before Wendonai led the drow here. They may have been immigrants from Faerie/the Feywild... and perhaps some of the Yuir "deities" were Archfey held in esteem by the hags.

In fact, this hag society I've mentioned could have possibly been a powerful faction of the Unseelie Court that set itself up in Toril. After all, we know the fey had societies somewhere besides the elves. We have the fey opening gates to Toril in -27000DR, but the ilythiiri don't migrate to Narathmault until -10400DR... so there's plenty of time for another fey society to have arisen here and fallen. Perhaps this was one of them. In addition to hags, there might have been other magically oriented "fey" beings in this society (my mind instantly goes to Glouras.. the moth winged medium fey of the underdark.. some of which are evil). Others that come to mind are quicklings, buckawn, spriggans, and thorns.... though I wouldn't stress any of these as particularly powerful in this society (they may have been more support for the society similar to how gnomes are in human society... possibly a step above the bestial ogres, goblins, trolls, minotaurs, gnolls, etc...).

I do kind of like it if this hag society also came into contact with the offspring of Othea who AREN'T favored by the empire of Ostoria (i.e. the ogres born of Vaprak, the verbeeg and fomorians of Ulutiu). This could explain the fall of this hag society, as it came into conflict with the empire of Ostoria and its frost giants (or not... I'm not totally sold on this idea). However, while it lasted, who knows what all evil it committed. In fact, for a short span, the empire of Ostoria and this hag society may have even worked together against the incursions of the dragons.

Wendonai and the drow show up later (in -10,400 DR)... and they stay for about 400 years... barely a single generation of drow. They end up binding a lot of demonic power in the area based on the teachings of Wendonai, but when they become drow, they lose these bindings and their civilization here falls apart (the survivors go on to build Undrek'Thoz the segmented city and presumably the nearby island city of V'elddrinnsshar in the moondeep sea).

Note on V'elddrinnsshar: it fell in 1278 DR to the ascomoid plague... source demi-human deities... noting Ascomoid is a type of fungus/plant life that emit spores )). In reading the next section... one wonders if the Ascomoid plague wasn't created by the "good" moon and sun elves following the nentyarch of the circle of Leth as a means to assault their drow cousins in V'elddrinnsshar (i.e. possibly rediscovering the dark secret of the bloodoak heresy of the elves of the realm of Lethyr. They possibly turned sentient beings into fungal Ascomoids and turned them against the city of V'elddrinnsshar).

250 years after the drow leave, the area is settled by moon and gold elves who develop the realm of Lethyr (who btw, aren't all good, as they "resolve to clear the forest of all non-elves"). In fact, it would be interesting if some of these elves took up worship of Relkath of the Infinite Branches and followed the "path of the bloodoak".... something George had recently hinted about called the bloodoak heresy where some druids were killing sentient beings in order to create sentient plants (treants, possibly dryads, and probably most commonly Volodni). Perhaps they start turning on human, goblinoid, ogre, and other settlements (such as possibly even the remaining hags) nearby and turning them into trees. This further adds to the subtle evil in the area without it being "demon taint", oddly enough because some may even see this cause as noble. The realm of Lethyr thrives from -9750DR to -2465 DR (a whole lot longer than the drow civilization) until they use high magic to stop the expansion of the great glacier and come into conflict with the Nar humans and hobgoblins and eventually fall 1400 years later .

The Nentyarch of Narfell and their kind further infest the area with dark energy... They begin worshipping & mating with demons. They bind demons within Narathmault (which they've renamed Dun-Tharos and setup as their capital). They discover the secrets of the former Illythiiri (drow) inhabitants, but it doesn't say they discover any of the darker secrets....

We then later have Zhengyi show up... possibly to get into Dun-Tharos. Then about 20 years or so later, we have Talona's followers of the Rotting Man show up and push out the druidic Nentyarch from Dun-Tharos and attempt to find some deep hidden secrets. Again, this doesn't seem "demon oriented", but more that there's some kind of general evil to be found here.

Here's the legend associated with Chupoclops:

Chupoclops once stood tall in the company of Fenris, Dendar the Night Serpent, and other supposed harbingers of the end of existence. A titanic spiderlike creature, chupoclops stalked the Ethereal Plane, devouring ghosts and giving birth to mortals' nightmares. Legend has it that the gods trapped the monstrous Chupoclops in the realm of ghosts to prevent it from devouring hope, but it was destined to escape and sate its hunger during the end times.

Because Chupoclops was a terror to both the living and the undead, several powerful individuals eventually joined forces to fight it. Three were great heroes, and four were powerful villains. Four of these seven - one of the heroes and three of the villains- were ghosts; the rest were living. This group set out to murder Chupoclops and thus accomplish what deities could not. The furious battle lasted for seven days, and each day ended with the death of one member of the group that had come to kill the great monster. on the last day, the last hero struck down Chupoclops with her dying blow.

Chupoclops, never a creature defined by the normal rules of the univers, became a vestige after its death. Binder scholars claim that adventurers still encounter its enormous corpse in the misty Ethereal Plane. Now that the monster can no longer destroy hope, some say it will exist forever, and thus, so will the world.

NOTE: a special requirement of summoning its vestige is soil from a grave or tomb OR using the body of a dead sentient creature (something with int 3 or higher). Also, Chupoclops hates Amon and Amon hates Chupoclops (if you've made a pact with the other, then they won't work with you). This might be able to be translated into Chupoclops and Amaunator being enemies.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  18:18:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and ogre-magi would fit this hag society well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  19:57:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its a good tie in, I cant say I have ever used the tome of magic (its on my to do list of books to convert). I would probably interpret the story differently (since even evil people can be considered heroes, and I would take the word ghosts to mean spirits which means spirit folk would work here and other fey creatures). Its a great tie in so close to Rashemen which is very spirit world orientated.

Maybe Chupoclops is the reason why the spirit world isn't so evident in Narfell and the lands south and west. Maybe Chupoclops devoured every spirit related creature he could find. These 7 people, hags, whatever they are then go on a quest to slay him and end up dead themselves.

It is a very good idea I like it a lot.

However in researching Narathmault I think I have discovered George's idea for it.

I reckon George's idea involves the Sarrukh of Okoth and the Baetith who created the portal that the dark elves travelled through (and later the people that created Ashanath).

Now i'm off to read Tome of Magic and Chupoclops.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2013 :  21:47:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I too take the word to be less literal, but I do think they meant ethereal beings OR the souls of the dead, since Chupoclops was confined to the ethereal for a time by the gods. Rather than spirit folk though, I'd be more inclined to say "Telthors"... the incorporeal fey found within Rashemen.... and I'd be inclined to believe that long ago telthors were found throughout the unapproachable east. I'd also throw in options like wizshades, watchghosts, and even shades as possibilities. Also, how many were from this society and how many of the heroes/villains were from other societies around Faerun would also be debatable (I'd imagine maybe 1-3 individuals from this society at most out of the seven). It would be interesting if the death of Chupoclops had some tie-in to Lolth actually gaining power over spiders, and that possibly some of the individuals involved were ilythiiri... but that might piss off people too much.

Main take away from all this, in the depths of Narathmault are lost secrets of pact magic. Possibly even the secrets of creating a vestige.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  09:55:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now that I think about it, an ancient fey spirit world kingdom is ideally suited to the unapproachable east.
That area definitely has links to the spirit world, the dimensional barrier between the ethereal, fey and material planes are probably thin in this area.
Everywhere else the elves poked there noses into fey realms 10000 years earlier, but this area existed in isolation for quite some time until the illythiir arrived

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  10:57:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
you know, as I wrote that last sentence, it made me recall there's a resource out there as an add-on for pact magic called "the secrets of pact magic". I've never read it, but yesterday I bought the PDF from paizo. As part of a campaign, it might be interesting to mine that resource to include additional vestiges as part of a campaign and stick these "finds" deep within the heart of Narathmault (finding the entries that are more "primordial" and/or "Archfey" or "demon lord" sounding so that they could have existed long ago).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  12:56:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, you could tie the star elves (and their other-worldy domain) to all of that.

Some sort of fey vs aberrations ancient (pre-Torillian?) conflict, perhaps. 4e turned demons into 'corrupted' (chaos-touched) elementals, and that could prove useful as well, if this area was some sort of Fey battleground against some encroaching, cthonic menace.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2013 12:56:45
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  15:30:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, you could tie the star elves (and their other-worldy domain) to all of that.

Some sort of fey vs aberrations ancient (pre-Torillian?) conflict, perhaps. 4e turned demons into 'corrupted' (chaos-touched) elementals, and that could prove useful as well, if this area was some sort of Fey battleground against some encroaching, cthonic menace.



I was considering the star elves and Yuirwood, but then we have these references in GHotR. They seem to indicate that the elves didn't actually make it to this Northeastern portion of the realms until much later (i.e. after the short lived drow realm in Narathmault and the crown wars). They stayed mostly in the Northwest and South areas of the realms. Humans too aren't really documented as being in this area either. The only major cultures nearby would be the Jotunbrud between the -27000's and -11000's. There was an avariel society far north of here in the ice of Sossal, wherein the DracoRage mythal was raised... but with such an immense timespan, nothing says that that society and this "society of the uglies" (i.e. hags, ogres, ogre magi, goblinoids, trolls, minotaurs, gnolls.... interspersed with glouras, quicklings, spriggans, and buckawn) existed at the same time.

So, I see this area as "untamed wilderness" for the most part. This may be why A) no one really ventured there much and B) this society is little documented. The only other culture we can remotely place in the area is the Okoth Sarrukh being as far north as Thay, but even that may have come later. In fact, it would be interesting if the Sarrukh discovered what would later become Narathmault AFTER this hag culture had fallen and they added their own evil taint to the area as well. Hell, perhaps the Ba'etith Sarrukh who wrote the Golden Skins of the World Serpent (Nether Scrolls) learned some from here since they studied the "primitive magics used by various races".


below are references to when the Star Elves and Yuirwood started getting settled.

–9800 DR Yuirwood is settled by small numbers of green elves in the aftermath of the Crown Wars.

-6950 DR Star elves begin to gather in the Yuirwood, leaving the other elf nations behind.

–6600 DR
Yuireshanyaar is founded by star elves and green elves.

–1250 DR
Unther battles Yuireshanyaar for control of the southern Aglarondan coast. The star elves are driven back into the woods. Further Untheric expansion near the Great Rift [–6000, 316] brings this nation into conflict with the gold dwarves of the Deep Realms.

–900 DR to –600 DR
Star elves of Yuireshanyaar, foreseeing disaster, begin construction of the extraplanar refuge of Sildëyuir.

–699 DR Year of Moon Blades Clashing
The star elves abandon Yuireshanyaar for Sildëyuir. Many green elves choose to remain in the Yuirwood.

also these reference make the area relatively void of humans as well

–5000 DR — Human tribesfolk of Raumviran stock, led by their chieftain Shemen [–4963], arrive from lands to the east and settle the Lakelands (present-day Rashemen).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  18:15:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, thinking on this more, there may have been one group of elves in this area. However, they may have actually opposed this hag society or been indifferent to it. The Lythari (Ly'Tel'Quessir or wolf-elves) have a faction known as the Vil Adanrath that are out in the Endless Waste. I wonder if the gnolls of Faerun were by chance a creation of this group? I can see a society of Lythari, centaurs, satyrs, and possibly noble gnolls working together (nothing says that the gnolls couldn't have turned cruel, cowardly killers later) throughout Thesk and Rashemen and into the Endless Wastes. This society could have also contained the goatfolk (ibixians from MM3), hybsils, dryads, nymphs, nixies, pixies, etc... Not necessarily an organized, cohesive society with leadership, but more tribal. I could even see some fey with some kind of bear similarities. I could definitely see this society worshipping and spreading the worship of the Yuir deities (including Magnar the Bear... and I'm seeing some kind of Wolf fey that's been forgotten... since they never name all the Yuir deities). This society may have been mostly wiped out by the competition of humans, orcs, giants, etc... over the years. I'm kind of liking this society as being a counterpoint to the hag society... and neither group having the slightest involvement in the other elven societies and their crown wars. It has a very Seelie / UnSeelie vibe to it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  18:30:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm, scratch the gnolls being a creation of them. Still, could see the gnolls as coming from Faerie and being a part of both societies (as tribal units working with another entity).

–30400 DR
The Wasting Plague: In a conflict between the gnolls of Urgnarash and the rookery of Kookrui-Shara, shamans of Yeenoghu summon marrashi—spirits of pestilence from the Barrens of Doom and Despair—to blight aearee crops and spread a wasting plague among the avians. Decimated, many Aearee-Quor turn to the demon lord Pazrael for salvation.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  19:21:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All sounding good but the ibixian are a no go according to the Ironfang Keep article where ibixian were first created there by the beast cult.


I have been thinking about how a spirit society would work.

who is in charge, the material fey or the ethereal spirits.

Obviously the spirits cannot exist without material plane allies to manipulate things for them. I was wondering what is in it for the two groups.

Could it be that this was not a society ruled by fey (although the fey would take an active part).

What if the spirits desired a presence in the material plane and so routinely possessed the local primitive (or maybe not so primitive) humanoid tribes - humans, goblinoids, sarrukh experimental rejects.

Maybe the primitive tribes believed the spirits were their ancestors, perhaps the spirits were benevolent but malicious instead, or maybe they were a mix.

I'm a big fan of the primordials and believe the lost gods of the Yuir elves were primordial creatures so they must have had a presence in the unapproachable east and probably wandered far and wide throughout the whole area so this whole place may have been full of beast cults and spirit worshippers and Chupoclops preyed on them all.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2013 :  23:12:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

All sounding good but the ibixian are a no go according to the Ironfang Keep article where ibixian were first created there by the beast cult.


I have been thinking about how a spirit society would work.

who is in charge, the material fey or the ethereal spirits.

Obviously the spirits cannot exist without material plane allies to manipulate things for them. I was wondering what is in it for the two groups.

Could it be that this was not a society ruled by fey (although the fey would take an active part).

What if the spirits desired a presence in the material plane and so routinely possessed the local primitive (or maybe not so primitive) humanoid tribes - humans, goblinoids, sarrukh experimental rejects.

Maybe the primitive tribes believed the spirits were their ancestors, perhaps the spirits were benevolent but malicious instead, or maybe they were a mix.

I'm a big fan of the primordials and believe the lost gods of the Yuir elves were primordial creatures so they must have had a presence in the unapproachable east and probably wandered far and wide throughout the whole area so this whole place may have been full of beast cults and spirit worshippers and Chupoclops preyed on them all.



Good catch on the ibixian. Didn't know they'd officially given them a presence.

That is a good idea that maybe these people were led by the "spirits". Their ancestor spirits may lead them in the form of Telthors. This would actually be their ancestor still, but he's fey and not undead. Maybe it had something to do with tying their spirit to the land rather than offering it to a deity. However, they may also transform particularly powerful beasts into Telthors, that they can then turn into non-aging, no need to feed, guardians.


I'm picturing all these different tribal groups (not the hag/ogre/goblinoid ones mind you)as not necessarily being evil. However, their loyalties are to their clan. Thus, the Lythari are hunters... and yeah, I could see them with a beast cult that worshipped some wolf/hound/fox totem that also represented the wilyness of the fox (and thus maybe there were also fox women in the area). There may also have been wolfweres, and such tribes may actually have been in competition with the lythari. Meanwhile, the gnolls don't like any of them. Hell, I could even see a Rakshasas tribe amongst all this

At the same time, the Hybsil (tauric deer folk) don't like any of these fey and may actually be hunted by them. They may have allied with the centaurs in the area, but the two cultures generally don't work the same areas (one is in forest, the other in plains), so both may have been fending off the predatory fey.

Meanwhile, the plant cultures (thorns, treants, dryads, wood woads, volodni, and creatures given the woodling template) may have actually worked together in the southern boundaries in service to Relkath of the Infinite Branches to spread the forests by converting beings into trees (and actually there's an entry in Spellbound that supports this: "Relkath of the Infinite Branches. This powerful, chaotic, and unpredictable deity resembles a treant of enormous size. The Yuir claimed that he often strode the land and that great forests sprang up where his heavy, rooted feet touched the ground. He was a defender of the Yuir but sometimes victimized them as well, transforming priests into trees and villages into forests. Some halfelves believe Relkath is simply another face of the leaflord Rillifane Rallathil."

The plant creatures known as night twists (MM3) in particular may have had some ties to Chupoclops, as they helped create nightmares that could slay folk. Perhaps Chupoclops began twisting plant beings into night twists and that turned several groups to join together against it. Relkath of the Infinite Branches may have encouraged the assault on Chupoclops because he was twisting his own creations.

Another thing that came to mind was that I wanted a bear like people to follow Magnar the Bear. It occurs to me that we could have surface born Quaggoth that live in caves like cavemen in the area. Their culture may have been driven from the surface by competition and flourished in the underdark before beings like the drow and dwarves and illithids grew to dominate. Still, they may have held a strong worship of this Magnar the Bear and may have been on the surface in the Unapproachable East in the early days (and been another immigrant from Faerie). I could see two distinct groups (those with brown fur and those with white fur who lived in the icier areas).

Hmmm, as I think more on this, I'm really fleshing out the early area. I'm picturing the Narfell/Damara/Vaasa/Impiltur type area filled with hags, ogres, goblinoids, trolls, and giants/giantkin. This culture uses souls for power sources or enslaving the spirits in necromantic rituals of darkness. This culture may also know some dark secrets of rune magic, symbol magic, and pact magic.

I'm picturing the Thesk/Rashemen area filled with "animal-like" tribes (Lythari, wolfweres, hybsil, fox women, centaurs, gnolls, quaggoths, minotaurs) some of whom may have developed some kinds of links to the spirits of the land. I'm picturing the area of Thay having small, dense populations of Sarrukh and serpent folk creations in well defended citadels. I'm picturing the Aglarond area inhabited by the plant culture. Thus, these fey animal type cultures are surrounded by more organized and entrenched cultures, so that we can see why they eventually died out or were pushed into the Endless waste.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2013 :  08:41:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it gets my vote. I was thinking of spirits in turns of the spirit subtype introduced in one of the later 3.5 books (probably unapproachable east which included fey ethereal and a whole host of other eastern influence creatures. Basically all the races you quoted.

I like the addition of the deep bears. In my own personal view of primordials i see them as being the progenitors of various races so rather than quaggoths being from faerie i would have them created by magnar the bear to be his children of sorts.

I like that the whole area is different tribes and cultures that do not necessarily link together in any way. i can see the fey cooperating with many of these different tribes at various different times because fey are typically fickle and changing.

And the fact that this is all very primitive with little in the way of organised kingdoms and cultures and therefore probably little to no writing also goes some way to explain why none of this is known, because there are little or no links to that past left. No great cities remain, no writings survive, no evidence at all.

Except for the tomb of the great evil of the area; Chupoclops eater of souls. He was probably responsible himself for them all migrating east into the hordelands.

If he devoured/massacred a large portion of people and spirits then it stands to reason that the spirits that remain would become more malevolent and vengeful which caused the spirit folk and other more tangible races to leave.

The fey might have remained as wardens and so were encountered by the elves later but the wholesale abandoning of the area is possible if the very land itself turns against you because of all the death and destruction wrought upon it.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  15:36:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i am about to start work on my next region which is Narfell so if you are around George i would love to hear what your idea for Narathmault was.

I have to say i might go with Sleyvas anyway, but its always nice to hear ideas from one of the loremasters.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  15:54:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, the more I'm thinking on the night twists / Chupoclops thing.... if the night twist plants were cropping up and giving killing nightmares to people, perhaps it was also turning them into ghosts after their death... then he was feeding on the ghost. I see the ritual to "warp" a healthy, sentient tree being into a night twist being some kind of ritual that Chupoclops himself couldn't perform entirely on its own... but the hags working with him could (i.e. they adapt the tree, and he helps provide the nightmares... both partners harvest the souls). This may have been what got the gods to ally and kick Chupoclops to the ethereal, where he was later slain by the 7 heroes (which may have been much later). At the time they ejected Chupoclops, it was probably too strong from eating souls to kill by the gods (who were also weak from being denied the souls eaten by Chupoclops). Later, after being confined to the ethereal, it was easier for it to be slain.

As you state, this makes perfect sense why all the spirits in Vaasa/Damara/Impiltur/Narfell/Thesk/Aglarond/Thay fled east and managed to survive in Rashemen & the hordelands (the farthest eastern border).

It could also explain why necromantic magic is so much more focused upon in Damara/Vaasa (I mean, you had Orcus worshippers... Kiaransalee worshippers... and the Damaran wizards were known for studying effectively white necromancy in 2E)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  16:26:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does seem to fit quite well.

I just need a link between Wendonai, Lolth, and Orcus (or Fraz Urb Lu) and then i will be content.

There has to have been some reason that Wendonai knew about that place and directed the dark elves.

Then there has to be a continuance linking Orcus and Eltab to this area (since Orcus gave the secret of binding Eltab to the Narfelli), and later when Zhengyi arrived on the scene he probably visited the area before journeying onto Vaasa.

I linked the Zhengyi bit to draining power from beings to fuel magic. This kind of fits with the Chupoclops scene. Chupoclops bound spirits into trees and consumed/drained them to power himself.

Orcus taught the Narfelli to bind Eltab.

Orcus directs Zhengyi to Vaasa to drain power from Telos (only in my game of course).

The missing link is the start with Wendonai. What was Wendonai; then a servant of Lolth doing there.

I know he later came to serve Eltab, but i suspect given that Orcus later teaches the Narfelli how to bind Eltab that Wendonai's service may have been a ruse. Maybe Wendonai owed something to Orcus and so served Eltab to get his true name or something like that, passed the information on to Orcus and was free to pursue his own plots.

So again what was Wendonai doing in Chupoclops eternal resting place. How did he know about it, why take the dark elves there.

Maybe Narathmault was involved in bringing Lolth into Faerun, or elevating her to deity status. After all she was demoted to a demon lord of whatever layer she inhabits after the attack on Corellon.

Then in -24400 DR the darkelves of Faerun come to her attention when that elf woman enters her abyssal layer (i forget the names).

-11500 DR, Lolth sends Wendonai to seduce the Illythiiri to her cause and the cult of Lolth begins to grow.

After a thousand years she probably didnt gather all that many followers to her side (after all why worship a demon goddess of small power when you can still worship the Seldarine - even if you are a bunch of evil tree burning b*stards, no one else seems to be bothered about it).

So in -10400 DR Wendonai leads what i can only assume are the followers of Lolth to Narathmault. Some great pit in the world where an ancient evil was born, once resided, or maybe even died here.

He teaches them how to bind the remains of Chupoclops to their will and drain it of it's power. This ritual is what Lolth needs to elevate her to demigod or maybe even lesser god status.

Then a mere 400 years later the dark elves are abandoned by the Seldarine and as luck would have it there is a new goddess hanging around that would just love to grant them spells and protect them from the evil tree huggers.

And i think i just answered my own question.

If you wanted to be more dastardly, Chupoclops did indeed have a big orchard of these night twists (i think an underground cavern full of bizarro world arakhor after they drained so many souls). These night twists drained any spirits that came within a rather large radius of them - so no spirits around Narfell, Impiltur, the Great Dale, or Damara. You certainly wouldnt want to die in this area otherwise your soul would get swallowed up by the trees.

Chupoclops gets killed by the primordial gods of the Yuir pantheon, and his vestige remains around Narathmault, but the primordials are dead or ascended to godhood thanks to their services and no one remains who is powerful enough to free the souls from the trees.

Now rather than the dark elves going after Chupoclops' vestige which while powerful is merely a shadow of his former self, they go after the thousands of years worth of spirits trapped in these night twists. They drain them dry and sacrifice every spirit creature to Lolth, that should garner her enough soul power to become a god.

That way the secret to binding and stealing power is detailed in Narathmault after the darkelves were forced to abandon it (and Wendonai probably left his secrets lying around on purpose). Chupoclops' vestige is around for anyone that fancies their chances at killing or binding him, and so after Wendonai is banished he goes to work for Eltab (secretly Orcus) and Orcus points the Nar in the direction of this vault that his new servant Wendonai has told him about.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  19:16:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And how did Wendonai know Chupoclops could be found in the forest of Lethyr. . . Because Lolth told him. So how did she know Chupoclops was there.

Because Lolth sent him to Faerun long before she was banished to the Abyss.

Chupoclops was one of those creatures whispered about by the elves of Faerie. A dark evil fey creature that preyed upon the elves while they were in reverie, devouring their thoughts and eating their souls.

Lolth supposedly fought and banished Chupoclops, and in doing so gained the respect and admiration of Corellon (and later his heart). But secretly Chupoclops and Lolth were in cahoots. Who knows if Lolth was the master ordering around her pet Chupoclops, or if Chupoclops was the teacher and Lolth the student.

That is why both Chupoclops and Lolth have a link to spiders, that is why Lolth sent him to Toril, so she could gain standing with the Seldarine, and Chupoclops left willing so he could devour all the lovely spirit creatures in the east of Faerun.

I remember there being a bunch of abyss infused trees in Thay that may well threaten to tip Toril into the Abyss if they grow unchecked. I see these Night Twists as being something similar. I reckon Lolth has always been a dark and twisted being tainted by the Abyss, she probably created the Night Twists herself using a similar process as Grazzt did with the trees in Thay.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  22:47:03  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm greatly enjoying all of this. One small nitpick:

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal


Orcus taught the Narfelli to bind Eltab.



What brings you to this conclusion?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  23:26:53  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think its hinted at in the champions of ruin book in Eltab's write up.

The early Nar kings were Orcus worshippers.

It is no mean feat to bind a demon to your service, let alone a demon lord. They must have had help, and Orcus and Eltab were fierce rivals so it stands to reason that Orcus helped them bind Eltab.

Of course that may be where I go wrong here because demons are chaotic and do not obey reason.

I doubt Orcus taught them directly, that isn't his style, but through his agents and cultists he probably directed the Netyarch to Narathmault and planted some information about Eltab, enough to allow them to summon him (which I think requires a true name) and then bind him.

I'm sure you have mentioned Fraz Urb Lu a couple of times but I can never remember if or how he was involved in this. Plus his name is too difficult to spell right so I cant really search on him in my documents either.

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Demzer
Senior Scribe

876 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  11:25:55  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple things that came to my mind about this topic, all may be completely wrong suggestions:
- In my ignorance of many things elven, i don't know where the cities of Occidian and Sharlarion were, but they were attacked by a demon-led horde of orcs around -24400 (GHotR page 10) and Lolth's interest in the Realms started in the aftermath of this invasion so this may be related in some way to the "ancient evil" of the place;
- Chuk is an interesting vestige option, but in the Realms he's just a spidery Kezef, doing almost exactly the same thing and with the same relation to Dendar (he produces nightmares tha she feasts on), the main difference is that Chuk is dead while Kezef is not. I pondered for a while about this and thought about the fact that Kezef is rumored to be both "as old as Faerun itself" and that "the god Jergal created him" (both quotes from Champions of Ruin page 145 in the History section), a way to allow both things to be true and keep the mistery of Jergal's ascension (something we know nothing about) is that the very first soul-devouring being was Chuk, "old as Faerun itself" and preying on the spirits/spirit folk of the east, then he was imprisoned and slain and Jergal, being heavily into necromancy and dark secrets, found a way to call the thing back and gave it the shape and the name of Kezef before releasing it against the other gods' faithful that "escaped" his realm to join the godly estates in the Outer Planes;
- About the hag/fey society and the tale of Chuk's demise: what if the villains of the legend (those that helped get rid of Chuk) were devils? What if the Hag Countess was one of the "rulers" of the hag/fey society? In my mind it would be almost perfect if the real deal was all about the trade of souls and larvae: the hags (ruled by the most powerful among them, one of which was the Hag Countess) used that part of the Realms as a breeding facility for the souls and larvae they sold to the Lower Planes. Chuk found out about it, sniffing around the Planes the path to the soul-farm, and started harrassing the hag/fey society, ruining their soul-trading business to the point were the Hag Countess signed a contract with Moloch and his devils, a contract that made her Moloch's consort, forced the hags to sell the biggest share of souls/larvae to Moloch at discount price and enlisted the devil's aid against Chuk. With Chuk defeated everything turns back to normal business (except for the terms of the contract) until the demons learn of the existence of this facility through Blood War spies and Lolth's new interest in the Realms. An alpha strike of demonic forces beheads the hag's leaderships putting a stop to the soul trading and letting the enslaved/subjugated feys/spirit folks run away from that place of torment where they were bred and raised just to be sold to the fiends. Lolth sends someone to check now and then just to be sure the devils or the hags aren't rebuilding the farm and when Wendonai needs a place filled with dark secrets and lower planar energies to teach a thing or two to the Ilythiiri, she sends him there in -10400.

There, this messy and shaky theory hopes to explain the "ancient evil" of the place, the Kezef/Chuk conundrum, Lolths knowledge of the place and the Hag Countess backstory, all in one strike.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11770 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  14:39:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, yeah, I find no placement of Occidian or Sharlarion either, other than that they were in the "North". On a side note, one thing I found of interest there was that it referenced "Evermeet: island of elves" on the wiki page. So, I went to that section and found it referencing Kiaransalee already... so we have a reference to Kiaransalee prior to the creation of the drow (which lends credence to the idea that she's not a new deity and that Toril is old but not necessarily one of the original worlds).

I don't find a reference to Kezef creating nightmares in P&P or champions of ruin. He does eat spirits, but ONLY those destined to join with their favored deity. If the spirits of the east were tying themselves to the land, then they wouldn't be going to their deities. I can actually see a lot of primordials drawing essence from the souls of the dead, so I wouldn't necessarily make it something for just one being. Chupoclops was just a glutton and thereby drew the anger of the gods. However, your idea of Kezef being a recreation of a previous primordial would make sense if Jergal took the essence of Fenris' avatar and perverted it within the realms. We already know that Dendar the Night Serpent is known as another Norse "primordial" called Nidhogg, so it could make sense that Fenris and Kezef are essentially the same being... especially since both were chained and bit off Tyr's hand. Jergal's changing of Fenris to Kezef may also have made it such that he could no longer stand the "flavor" of spirits not aligned to a deity, which may have been what led to them finally wanting to chain him. So, in the end, I wouldn't be surprised if both Chupoclops and Fenris were raiding the area for spirits, and the gods chained Fenris and ejected Chupoclops to the ethereal plane (noting the ethereal doesn't reach the astral, so it can't touch the spirits of god-bound souls).

On the idea of some of the villains being devils, it should be noted that 3 of the 4 villains were "ghosts". You could do a play on words and say that demons are spirits that are twisted, etc.... but it makes more sense that some of the villains were ghosts stuck on the ethereal. They simply didn't want to be eaten by Chupoclops, so they got 2 living heroes and a ghostly hero and a living villain to work with them. In a twist on things, they may have been performing a ritual as part of all this that was affecting Chupoclops, and the beings being destroyed were actually the ghostly villains taking over their living counterpart's bodies (i.e. they "poison" the soul of a living individual and then force feed it to Chupoclops to weaken it). The now "living" villains may have then turned upon one another (further poisoning Chupoclops). Maybe the final villain finishes off Chupoclops, only to be destroyed himself by some contingent effect put in place by his co-conspirators or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6360 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  14:59:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a vague recollection that the elven cities you mentioned now lie submerged beneath the oceans thanks to one catastrophe or another. I think they were probably swept away thanks to the sundering and no longer exist since large portions of the land just disappeared (and took the fey creator race empire with it).

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2013 :  15:02:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So if I go down to the 'Malt Shop' and order me a Narathmault, will it taste like pure evil?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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