| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tarloc |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 04:24:13
Anyone know the circumstances that led to the attack on zhentil keep by the Shadovar? and information on the attack itself and the aftermath? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 02:19:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe its Mordenkainen, looking in on Raisltin, Dr. Strange, and Strahd.
You never know. 
Great. Just what Strange needs... more extra-dimensional troublemakers looking over his shoulder. As if the Vishanti weren't already enough of a problem...  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 02:10:50
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Maybe its Mordenkainen, looking in on Raisltin, Dr. Strange, and Strahd.
You never know.
Strahd would not be caught dead with that hair :D |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 23:10:41
Maybe its Mordenkainen, looking in on Raisltin, Dr. Strange, and Strahd.
You never know. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 22:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Yeah - it all makes good sense once you think about it. Khelben is looking in on how thing are working out with the Zhentarim. Teldorn, Fzoul, and Manshoon (one of them at least).
The more I think about it, the more I reckon that in the cover's first draft, the middle scrying stone was indeed meant to be Fzoul, but the second version got changed so that the central picture was Semmemon. The middle guy's hair is too dark to be Fzoul's red hair in my book.
-- George Krashos
Nah. Def. Fzoul - red tinge on hair, stupid looking cape flairs and all :P |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 22:45:09
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Yeah - it all makes good sense once you think about it. Khelben is looking in on how thing are working out with the Zhentarim. Teldorn, Fzoul, and Manshoon (one of them at least).
The more I think about it, the more I reckon that in the cover's first draft, the middle scrying stone was indeed meant to be Fzoul, but the second version got changed so that the central picture was Semmemon. The middle guy's hair is too dark to be Fzoul's red hair in my book.
-- George Krashos
Nah. Def. Fzoul - red tinge on hair, stupid looking cape flairs and all :P |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 14:07:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Yeah - it all makes good sense once you think about it. Khelben is looking in on how thing are working out with the Zhentarim. Teldorn, Fzoul, and Manshoon (one of them at least).
The more I think about it, the more I reckon that in the cover's first draft, the middle scrying stone was indeed meant to be Fzoul, but the second version got changed so that the central picture was Semmemon. The middle guy's hair is too dark to be Fzoul's red hair in my book.
-- George Krashos
|
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 12:10:41
I stumbled across a new spell "Eidolon" - well new to me at least. Perhaps Manshoon is doing this. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 08:03:06
Yeah - it all makes good sense once you think about it. Khelben is looking in on how thing are working out with the Zhentarim. Teldorn, Fzoul, and Manshoon (one of them at least).
|
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 07:19:16
George Krashos on the cover plus a link to another unused cover that more accurately portrays Khelben.
Cheers
Damian
*****************************
I am neither of the worthies you asked for help on this one, but I can tell you that the "older wizard" is Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun.
The original cover mock-up, which I link to below, makes that clearer:
http://book-covers.lucywho.com/forgotten-realms-nobles-book-covers-t2578487.html
-- George Krashos |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 13:32:45
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Does Jeff Easley lend his voice here? That's his work so he'd know if no one else does.
I'm more convinced than before that it is Khelben. Look behind him to the left. It looks to me like there is a black staff leaning against the shelf in the corner.
Also I found another detail on the 3rd (left) image. He is wearing a diamond shaped brooch or pin or something on his chest.
Steven Schend pops up occasionally, Im sure he could sort it out. But Im fairly sure it's Khelben as well. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 12:32:26
As I said before, the simplest solutions is that the Phaerimm were controlling the beholders that control the keep. Occam's razor and all of that.
That simple fix made me go from really not liking that lore (concerning their alliance) to completely understanding how such a thing could be (in light of past lore... which some designers tend to ignore at their convenience). The Zhents WERE chattel to the Phaerimm, and they were using them the same way they used the bugbears in RotAW.
As for that pic on the cover of C&D - I never gave it much thought (and never - sadly - read completely through that tome either, even though I had it for years). Like I said, I thought it was Manshoon, looking at other Manshoons, and since that particular plot left me flat (and probably why I never really bothered with that book), if anything the cover just reminded me of why I didn't want to read it.
This is all based on when I used to just run FR, and wasn't really a fan of it yet. The 'wheels within wheels' stuff didn't interest me at all at that point, because I wasn't running that kind of campaign back then. If I were to come across that book now (for the first time), I'd probably thoroughly enjoy it. Unfortunately, my perception of it has already been tainted, so when I do see that cover, I subconsciously say, "No thanks, I'll pass". |
| Dennis |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 08:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know what they say, get a lemon, make lemonade. Maybe the Phaerimm had seized control of the Zhent leadership in Zhentil Keep. The Shadovar didn't feel like working through all the loose strings to find the puppetmasters, and instead they just simply smacked Zhentil Keep. Of course, I say all this and I hadn't even read the original reference (didn't know Zhentil Keep was destroyed by Shade... but it does make sense that those two power groups, so close together, would eventually come to blows).
Not canon, but I like this possibility. "When you can't reach the roots, then just cut and burn the trunk."
Like most of the phaerimm's thralls in The Return of the Archwizards, the mind-controlled Zhents might not even be aware of their "hidden" masters. Or the phaerimm offered the Zhent leaders some irresistible bargain. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 04:18:42
Yeah, I think it's supposed to be Darkhope. In the original portrait of him in Empires of the Shining Sea (sorry, I can't find the image online), he has that triangle on his chest as well. In it there is a Hand of Bane. Other places where you see the symbol of bane it is usually in a shield shape, but I guess Teldorn's tailor took a little artistic license. :P |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 03:45:59
Perhaps it is Teldorn Darkhope? Looking very closely he appears to have an image on his face... the mark of Xvim maybe? idk. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 03:41:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I was under the impression it was Khelben...there are two different covers of the book...and the second is far less questionable about who it appears to be to me.
Before Dalor posted that I'd never seen the second image. Both are included in Amazon.com's listing for the item, here:
http://www.amazon.com/Cloak-Dagger-Forgotten-Realms-Wizards/dp/0786916273
This makes me certain it is Khelben and the middle crystal displays Fzoul. Oddly, the image of Vampshoon is less obvious. I still do not know who the left crystal is looking at.
Anyone recognize that guy? The triangle has to be the clue.
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 03:29:36
I was under the impression it was Khelben...there are two different covers of the book...and the second is far less questionable about who it appears to be to me. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 02:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Khelben may 'be' The Blackstaff... but he ain't the only guy to ever carry a black staff.
I've always gone off the assumption that that was one Manshoon looking at others, since thats the book the Clone Wars was in.
Of course he's not the only guy with a black staff, but if I'm doing a realms painting, and I paint a mid-50ish wizard, in good shape, with a white stripe in his short beard, AND a black staff than that wizard is Khelben Arunsun.
Otherwise it would be like someone painting a old grizzled beak nosed wizard with long white/gray hair and beard smoking a floating pipe for the cover of a realms product. Would anyone think its not El? The characters have their basic attribute too clearly defined.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 02:26:32
Khelben may 'be' The Blackstaff... but he ain't the only guy to ever carry a black staff.
I've always gone off the assumption that that was one Manshoon looking at others, since thats the book the Clone Wars was in. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 02:00:33
Does Jeff Easley lend his voice here? That's his work so he'd know if no one else does.
I'm more convinced than before that it is Khelben. Look behind him to the left. It looks to me like there is a black staff leaning against the shelf in the corner.
Also I found another detail on the 3rd (left) image. He is wearing a diamond shaped brooch or pin or something on his chest. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 01:19:47
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Where is it written that the person on the cover of Cloak and Dagger is the first Manshoon?
I would say 99.9% it is given past threads here and on the Realms-L, though will bow to another answer to the contrary.
Have posted in Ed's thread to see if we can get a definitive answer.
Cheers
Damian
I actually used to think it was Khelben. Until, some years ago, I actually zoomed in on the image using some photoshop software in an effort to determine just who it might be. From that closer inspection I noticed that there's apparently some close physical similarities between the visual structure of the wizard's face and that of the vampire-like image in the right-most crystal ball.
Granted, the wizard's white-stripe in his beard suggests that it might be Khelben, but the visual similarities I referenced above also make me think that the wizard might be "a" Manshoon as well.
I wonder whether Steven and/or Eric have any thoughts on this? |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 23:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Where is it written that the person on the cover of Cloak and Dagger is the first Manshoon?
I would say 99.9% it is given past threads here and on the Realms-L, though will bow to another answer to the contrary.
Have posted in Ed's thread to see if we can get a definitive answer.
Cheers
Damian
I went back and looked at the cover art again. I definitely think that the furthest right crystal ball has the image of Vampshoon. The fangs and the telltale mask make that apparent.
I'd say the image in the center is Fzoul, not Manshoon, and bears a good resemblance to the images of Fzoul in the old Ruins of Zhentil Keep Box Set.
I have no idea who the left image is. I have to think about what the symbols (the red triangle on the chest - possibly something to do with Beshaba? - and what appears to be a wave in the shape of a great cat) suggest.
Finally, I'd say the wizard in the middle is Khelben, though really my only reasons for this are the beard and the amount Khelben is featured in the book (the Harper Schism, the Moonstars, his ''alliance'' with the Zhents, etc.). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 22:10:45
I'd definitely argue Manshoon does not desire to be a Chosen - he thinks being Mystra's servant is beneath him, very much like the Netherese Archwizards considered worshiping gods beneath them. In Ed's books Mystra has asked him to do this or that and he basically always denies her. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 21:21:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I'd also find it unlikely that Uber-Prime would sit back and do nothing while Fzoul sacrificed all the Manshoon-loyal Zhentarim. At the very least he's have teleported the most useful of them from their cells. I'd think he also would have informed the leaders of the Citadel of the Raven that Fzoul was lying - a simple sending would have gotten that done.
I think Manshoon One is past all that, he probably knows through years of scheming that one of his clones will get back into power and essentially run the Zhentarim for him, acting as a dupe to fool the enemy and keep them busy foiling the clones and not him (or so he believes).
Wasted resources? consider this for tens of thousands of years magic has been created and crafted, passed on and lost (to be found by pesky adventueres in dungeons!), multiply all that magic by the infinite amount of planes/demi planes, planets and crystal spheres that exist with the D&D cosmos and Manshoon One has more than enough resources to play with and replace when necessary.
Just a few thoughts on what keeps him busy on a daily basis 
Manshoon One is much more interested in working on permanent longevity magics, uncovering and controlling gates within Faerun and without in other planes and worlds, building his personal power and spell mastery to new heights, trying to get personal mantles to work for him, figuring out how he can ascend to demi-god level within the next 200 years, and just how much of himself must he give up to feel the loving embrace of Mystra for a breif second and experience the joy that Her Chosen have.
Just my thoughts
Cheers
Damian |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 21:11:26
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Where is it written that the person on the cover of Cloak and Dagger is the first Manshoon?
I would say 99.9% it is given past threads here and on the Realms-L, though will bow to another answer to the contrary.
Have posted in Ed's thread to see if we can get a definitive answer.
Cheers
Damian |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 19:56:02
quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Its an interesting concept you have crazed, but its a new one, not one from the stasis clone spell.
You are very welcome MM, Manshoon is a pet project of mine I guess and like to speculate and conjecture on him, his clones and his dreams and schemes.
There is an excellent thread here about Manshoon and the clones with input from Ed and THO.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12084&SearchTerms=manshoon+prime
Just to be clear about Manshoon Prime. I am talking about the first born Manshoon, not the current 'top' Manshoon. If you have a look at the cover of Cloak and Dagger you get the see the original first born Manshoon (the super prime if you wish) in all his glory watching his minion clones running around doing stuff believing that are actually the real Manshoon Prime.
Cheers
Damian
I like that general idea as well. My only problem with it is the vast amount of magical equipment/resources that your Manshoon Uber-Prime through away in the release of his clones. As such I like the idea better that some string got crossed - perhaps a momentary wild surge, perhaps Elminster did something, whatever - and Uber-Prime had to secretly pick up the pieces, fixing things. I'd also find it unlikely that Uber-Prime would sit back and do nothing while Fzoul sacrificed all the Manshoon-loyal Zhentarim. At the very least he's have teleported the most useful of them from their cells. I'd think he also would have informed the leaders of the Citadel of the Raven that Fzoul was lying - a simple sending would have gotten that done. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 17:49:37
Where is it written that the person on the cover of Cloak and Dagger is the first Manshoon? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 12:30:38
So how many Manshoons does it take to screw in a lightbulb? |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 11:40:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Its an interesting concept you have crazed, but its a new one, not one from the stasis clone spell.
You are very welcome MM, Manshoon is a pet project of mine I guess and like to speculate and conjecture on him, his clones and his dreams and schemes.
There is an excellent thread here about Manshoon and the clones with input from Ed and THO.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12084&SearchTerms=manshoon+prime
Just to be clear about Manshoon Prime. I am talking about the first born Manshoon, not the current 'top' Manshoon. If you have a look at the cover of Cloak and Dagger you get the see the original first born Manshoon (the super prime if you wish) in all his glory watching his minion clones running around doing stuff believing that are actually the real Manshoon Prime.
Cheers
Damian |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 06:34:36
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
According to the 4th E mention of the attack on Zhentil Keep, one of the Manshoons had returned, made nice with Fzoul (YEAH RIGHT), and was back in charge.
By all accounts this particular Manshoon clone was cooperative and willing to work with Fzoul.
This would be the same Manshoon that was (presumably) slain when Shade attacked Zhentil Keep.
The Manshoon that visited Larloch was slain and made an example of, when he proved unwilling to accept Larloch's plans for him. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2013 : 03:56:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
[quote]Originally posted by Markustay
With Manshoon not around and Fzoul more focused on his religious tenets than the business, stuff could happen. Of course, I have no clue when this supposed Shadovar attack on Zhentil Keep happened (since I don't know the original reference), so as far as I know, Fzoul wasn't around either.
According to the 4th E mention of the attack on Zhentil Keep, one of the Manshoons had returned, made nice with Fzoul (YEAH RIGHT), and was back in charge. |
