| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tarrok of Halruaa |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 18:12:14
Am I the only one who would like to see more information (possibly in terms of a novel series) on Lathander/Amaunator? The Dawn Cataclysm isn't a particularly well fleshed out event, nor is the relatively recent transformation of Lathander to Amaunator... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Feb 2011 : 02:05:38
I loved Bill & Ted as well. I also love Rocky Horror. That doesn't mean I would use either as a a basis for a fantasy/SciFy hypothesis.
The point is, we know the dawn cataclysm happened, and we also know part of it at least happened "outside of time", and we have Eric Boyd's lore-fix, while imperfect, helps to wash away the inconsistencies. In fact, the one really good thing about using time-paradoxes is that they are really pretty nifty at helping fix continuity-glitches. The new Star Trek is a prime example. Change one fact in the past (the death of Kirk's father), and we have a whole different setting (with familiar characters).
I had once explained away the anachronistic appearance of The Black Archer in a Realms story simply by saying it took place before the Sundering, which we know (canonically) "reached backwards and forwards in time". Ergo, A Black Archer was meant to exist, and although the timestream was changed, eventually a new one came to be. I thought that was pretty nifty line of reasoning (time corrects itself, according to The Chronomancer).
Of course, my Fey-musing with Quale and others made me realize that there are certain 'arch-types' which will always exist, and some being will eventually step-in to take the place of a missing one. Thus, my new reasoning is that Shevarash is just the latest 'Black Archer' to hold that post.
Look at it this way - now we can blame everything on Abeir. For instance, there were a lot of inconsistencies in the Double Diamond series (some revolving around Open Lord Piergeiron the Paladinson), and now we can just say that all happened on 'alternate Toril'. 
Jeeze... I've been watching too much Fringe... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 03:19:49
Actually, I kinda like Bill & Ted. But then again, I have some lowbrow movie favourites. Plus I'm an 80s child. |
| crazedventurers |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 02:28:19
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So its not so much a Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure or Back to the Future hokey model we are working with (which is probably why so many people hate it), but rather a path of prophesy, which is an accepted fantasy Trope.
(My bolding above)
They do? really? Yes not knowing all the 'facts' is somewhat frustrating at times but I don't quite see where everyone 'hates' the answer that is "it can't/wont be answered with a definitive date in lore". I certainly don't hate not knowing, and reading through this thread not many others seem to hold that view either?
Being old   I remember this discussion on the Realms-List a long time ago and I seem to recall the tripartite deity was a welcome addition to Realms Lore and a wonderful fix for explaining at least partly the Dawn Cataclysm and inconsisent references between Ed's home game and the published Realms (The Temple of Tyche in Shadowdale being one of them). Sometimes proofreading misses out on one or two minor things and other people (Eric Boyd in this case) try to fix them/explain them with an interesting bit of made up lore.
I like the unknown happenings of the Dawn Cataclysm and I especially like the simplicity of Eric's tripartite sun deity (Dawn, Noon and Dusk) and as a DM the masses of game play options with the tripartite deity (sun cults, heretical prophecies, hidden temples, unorthodox/orthodox litany, inter-faith intolerance etc). It is a goldmine of potential hooks for the game.
What I am not a fan of is the rapid ascendance of Amaunator because a priest cast a second sun spell over Elversult and its seems that everyone went "All hail the new sun god" seemingly forgetting Lathander rather quickly   . This does not strike me as a clever or sophisticated way get that specific god into the new edition of the Realms.
Cheers
Damian |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 00:04:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
A common scifi time travel storyline assumes that time travel itself is quite improbable; time travellers have to go back in time to interfere with "baseline" history and ensure that their time travel is/was invented.
Escalating "butterfly" or "snowball" effect is just a popular theory. Another is the self-consistent "river of time" analogy. We can't time travel (in the fictional sense) so no logical interpretation is entirely unreasonable.
Your adaptation is reasonable, Markus, though I wouldn't prefer it in my gaming. Introducing time travel paradoxes, manipulations, and "what-if/might-have-been" guessing just seems to add needless complexity. Osric's Razor, keep the game setting simple.
Indeed. Tracy Hickman proved the simplest course for the time-continuum to follow in an established RPG world like DRAGONLANCE or the FORGOTTEN REALMS, with detailed examinations in both the Annotated Chronicles/Legends volumes, and Dragons of a Vanished Moon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 23:12:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When you tinker with time, You wind up with very unpredictable results (the Butterfly Effect), as Lathander found out when he tried to make a change and wound-up splitting Tyche in half (which I'm not sure is what he actually meant to do).
Quibble: Tyche was split by Selūne, during the Dawn Cataclysm -- but nothing other than timing indicates that the DC and what happened to Tyche are related.
Lathander feels responsible for what happened to Tyche because she and he fought, she stormed off, saw a rose that she thought was from him, and became corrupted by it (it was sent by Moander). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 22:02:11
A common scifi time travel storyline assumes that time travel itself is quite improbable; time travellers have to go back in time to interfere with "baseline" history and ensure that their time travel is/was invented.
Escalating "butterfly" or "snowball" effect is just a popular theory. Another is the self-consistent "river of time" analogy. We can't time travel (in the fictional sense) so no logical interpretation is entirely unreasonable.
Your adaptation is reasonable, Markus, though I wouldn't prefer it in my gaming. Introducing time travel paradoxes, manipulations, and "what-if/might-have-been" guessing just seems to add needless complexity. Osric's Razor, keep the game setting simple. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 21:23:24
I don't really care for time-paradox explanations myself, but when discussing FR, time travel/portals are canon (The Chronomancer was Netherease!), and therefor are a legitimate line of reasoing.
Here's how I look at it: At the very beginning of time, something MAJOR happened, and time was derailed (the original Sundering by Ao, which was merely 'echoed' in the Elven Sundering). Ergo, there is a world that exists, and also at least one 'alternate path' of 'might-have-beens'. Some residual 'ghost' of this 'true timeline' lingers on still, and folks of uber power - like gods - can tap-into it (which is precisely what I think Lathander did).
So its not so much a Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure or Back to the Future hokey model we are working with (which is probably why so many people hate it), but rather a path of prophesy, which is an accepted fantasy Trope.
I believe Shar did this as well, with her Black Chronology; gods can see alternate futures and attempt to steer the world down them. They can also tamper with the past, up to a point, but I think even deities suffer the paradox problem: they can't do anything that would stop them from having to tamper in the first place (which usually means the tampering would fail, because that's pretty hard to do). Even gods have to follow the laws of time, despite being able to supercede it (through desperation and much sacrifice, I'm thinking).
When you tinker with time, You wind up with very unpredictable results (the Butterfly Effect), as Lathander found out when he tried to make a change and wound-up splitting Tyche in half (which I'm not sure is what he actually meant to do). My theory is that Lathander was trying to change whatever circumstances caused him, Amaunator, and Jergal to share the 'Day' portfolio. I've discussed my theories on this elsewhere; at the time Wooly has pinpointed, one of the three - Dawn, Midday, and Dusk - was saying goodbye and a new one was rising (I picture 333 1/3 years for a complete cycle, with two deities always being present during a cycle). I'm Not sure how all that works out in the FR timeline, though - Jergal and Aumanator were both present during Nethril - and that would mean each deity got to be around for 666 years (doesn't that work-out kinda pleasing in an evil sort of way?)
So one deity is always 'sitting fallow' for a 1/3 of a millenium. At least, that's how I see it, which is not entirely canon. You could even drop the 1/3 year and say that between each 333 year period is four months where all three are active (getting their affairs in order), like the waxing and waning of the moon (with one growing more powerful as another grows feeble). That could be one of those times when Lathander tried to pull-off the Dawn Cataclysm (which was unsuccessful, IIRC). Since Aumanator replaces Lathander (which we know from the end of 3e into 4e), that must mean Lathander replaced Jergal (or whoever he duped into becoming dusk lord) in the cycle, and day (Aumanator) gives way to the Night (Jergal). It also means that one god is at their zenith Halway through (333 years), precisely when the other two are at their weakest (waxing and waning).
Its far from perfect, and I don't really care for that lore myself, but it is what it is. I am going to have to chart this on a timeline - it's hard to picture. |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 20:59:48
I've always said TIE-kee, rhymes with Nike. |
| Quale |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 08:57:30
It's closer to ''tee-hee'', without the ''k'', lol.
As far as I remember from a Linear B class.
In truth there are no wrong or right ways to pronounce. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 03:24:23
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Tyche, as google says the Greeks say it.
That works for me as well, especially when I'm emphasising the Greek pantheon in my PS games. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 02:45:10
Tyche, as google says the Greeks say it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Feb 2011 : 00:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Huh, I've always pronounced it the way they are..... or maybe ti-chi. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing. 
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key.
I've maintained "Ty-kay" in my Realms, but "Tyke" almost everywhere else in the multiverse. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:51:28
Huh, I've always pronounced it the way they are..... or maybe ti-chi. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing.
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 23:15:32
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day.
I heard about that. And they didn't pronounce it the same way I've been doing.
I say it Tiesh, but they pronounced it Ty-key. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 21:25:42
You know what was funny? The other day I was reading the news online and there's two scientists who now believe that we have another planet in our solar system and they are calling it Tyche. Course, not surprised since she was/is a Greek deity. Just my random reply for the day. |
| Pazuzu |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 06:09:15
I guess that Paul S. Kemp's new novel The Cycle of Night will reveal some of the change from Lathander to Amaunator. There were some notes about that before in the Shadow War Triology. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Feb 2011 : 00:12:55
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrok of Halruaa
What about the transformation of Lathander into Amaunator? Is anything more known about that other than what is in the FR 4e source book?
Not much, beyond what's written in the 4e material. It was tinkered with, and partially hinted at in previous material, like 3e's Power of Faerūn, but that's about it. |
| Tarrok of Halruaa |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 17:55:09
What about the transformation of Lathander into Amaunator? Is anything more known about that other than what is in the FR 4e source book? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2011 : 00:03:21
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
Ed's remained somewhat quiet on the issue of the Dawn Cataclysm... instead deferring to Eric Boyd for the most part. Unfortunately, Eric is no longer as active here at Candlekeep as he used to be.
I also once contacted Jeff Grubb to join us here at Candlekeep, but at the time, he simply replied that his scheduled, unfortunately, prevented him from engaging frequently at this site.
quote:
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon.
It's the 22nd, and it's canon. See Tymora's entry in Faiths & Avatars. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 23:11:35
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
[Edit]
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon.
Jeff Grubb is sadly not present here; I once dropped him a line, inviting him to join us, but did not get a reply. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 22:05:26
My googling and CK searches haven't yielded much. Have these questions been asked of Ed, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak?
[Edit]
The clergy of Tymora celebrate the 22nd (or 23rd?) day of Marpenoth, their holy day of Starfall, which apparently marks the birth of their goddess (from Tyche). I'm not sure if this is canon. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 21:52:33
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'll take another look through Tymora's Luck to see if a more exact date can be determined. I think F&A and FRCS were both published after the novel.
I've read that novel in the last year, and I don't recall anything more than a passing reference to the DC, and I don't recall any timeframe being offered for Tyche's split. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 19:31:54
I'll take another look through Tymora's Luck to see if a more exact date can be determined. I think F&A and FRCS were both published after the novel. |
| Eltheron |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 14:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by Tarrok of Halruaa
Am I the only one who would like to see more information (possibly in terms of a novel series) on Lathander/Amaunator? The Dawn Cataclysm isn't a particularly well fleshed out event, nor is the relatively recent transformation of Lathander to Amaunator...
I'd love to know more about this, if only to know when Tyche was split.
"Outside of the timestream" seems odd. Tyche was still herself when the kingdom of the stag (Elminster's birthplace) was around, and if it "presaged the fall of Myth Drannor" then it can't be all that long ago.
But yeah, I'd wish they'd flesh out a lot of things. I'd want to see the Dawn Cataclysm for sure, but also many of the things that happened during or immediately before the spellplague.
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 12:42:46
To add to the problem is that Wizards is looking a lot more forwards than backwards as it pertains to realmslore and realms products. There is a vast ammount of historical potential for them to work with, but the future is where they see the dollars I guess. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 11:12:30
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Moander was instrumental in Tyche's split. He was still an active god during the DC?
Wooly you speculate a date of 700-712DR ... based on which sourcebook data?
Prior references to the Dawn Cataclysm have stated that it presaged the fall of Myth Drannor. Faiths & Avatars tells us Tyche was sundered into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm (it happened during the DC, but it doesn't appear related to the DC). The 3E FRCS describes a schism in Tyche's church, with people turning to either Tymora or Beshaba, and says it happened in the 700s DR.
Me, I'm thinking the schism would have happened almost immediately after the birth of the luck goddesses. And the fall of Myth Drannor began in 712 DR. |
| Quale |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 09:05:30
I'm glad that the date of DC has remained a mystery. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 06:39:39
Moander was instrumental in Tyche's split. He was still an active god during the DC?
Wooly you speculate a date of 700-712DR ... based on which sourcebook data? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:26:47
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Light- very punny of you, Sage.... Personally, I don't even know what it is/was, so it doesn't bother me much.
It's largely supposed to be an event that we know little about. And what little we do actually know about the Dawn Cataclysm has been revealed in both Faiths & Avatars and Faiths & Pantheons.
We do know that Murdane was killed during this event, and it was also around this time that the division of Tyche occured -- resulting in the creation of both Tymora and Beshaba. However, it's been said that this division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 15 Feb 2011 : 02:18:45
Light- very punny of you, Sage.... Personally, I don't even know what it is/was, so it doesn't bother me much. |
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