| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:31:33
Planescape is definately not my primary area of interest, but since I need to know a lot about the planes to figure-out my own version of FR's cosmology, I figure I might as well start a thread for Planescape questions (and anyone should be able to use this thread - the more the merrier).
Just one for now, but I will have more. I have most of the books, but rather then do all that research for simple questions I figure it would be more efficient to just ask the many scribes who know far more then I.
Is there a 'Planer common' language? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 03:06:39
quote:
Gray Richardson
I actually prefer the 3e cosmology (and the 4e cosmology post-spellplague) to the Great Wheel, at least for Toril. That's not to say I don't also love the Great Wheel, I do. But, the Great Tree (now the Great Sea?) works best for planar adventuring in Faerūn, and makes sooooo much more sense when dealing with the gods and myths of the Realms.
I've got a shelf full of Planescape and hardly any later lore on the planes; I don't necessarily "prefer" the Great Wheel model, but for me it's a much more useful and comprehensive reference than the cursory mentions I have handy in my few post-3E materials. I can't judge which model works best.
Yet I don't see any particular reason that any of these models works more/less better than others insofar as interacting with Toril. My experience is that most Realms campaigns are basically always located in the Realms, planar travel is handwaved to fit adventure needs and hardly anybody ever ventures much past the Ethereal or perhaps Elemental planes. A number of NPCs scattered throughout the lands are noted as being sophisticated planar types, but they tend to serve more as "sages" than anything else (and even that very rarely). Sometimes a big priest sort will venture to wherever his deity lives. Unless you want to play a planar campaign, which is then a planar campaign and not really much about Toril at all (treating the Realms as little more than a "planar" headquarters for the party, if even that). I see powers and pantheons easily fitting into any of the official cosmologies; in fact, always carefully placed by the canon. Maybe some models are more "logical" or "organic" than others, but in a Realms-based campaign it makes no real difference either way.quote:
Markustay
The differences between 1e/2e/3e planer lore are negligible ... 4e really changed things, but its fairly easy to reconcile from the perspective that the universe we knew in 1e/2e/3e was the artificial one.
Perhaps you mean "mechanistic", "arbitrary", "contrived", or "synthetic"? As I understand it, all of the editions exist within an "artificial" cosmology. (I don't even accept the extra-planar models described in RL religions as "real", but that's entirely OT here.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 23:39:58
I see both your points, and they are both valid. The differences between 1e/2e/3e planer lore are negligible (and I largely ignore 3e's changes as the theories of 'clueless primes'). Please note I also think Planers and gods are nearly as 'clueless'. 
4e really changed things, but its fairly easy to reconcile from the perspective that the universe we knew in 1e/2e/3e was the artificial one. I'm don't think that's how Gray rationalizes it, though.
If you look at it that there was an artificial symmetry (LAW) forced upon the primal universe, then it has 'snapped-back' to its primal state. I have no problem with that, and have been backwards-engineering quite a bit of my own cosmic Model from that perspective.
The problem is that this is the final change that can made like this - you can only 'reset' a universe to its primal state once. If there is a 5e, and they decide to change everything once again, it will be beyond my meager abilities to apply any logic to. this is one of those 'all or nothing' decisions - once we are told the 'Loths were really always demons, you can't really return from that.
If this is 'the real truth' we have before us in 4e, then there can be no further 'real truth' - that patch can only be applied once (else it begins to fall apart and unravel - how can we believe anything after that?) 'Enlightenment' can only happen once, else its all just a sham.
I have no problem reconciling the 4e changes, but I won't be willing to do so again. In fact, the only real problem I have at this point is why the collapse of a world-specific interface wreaked havoc throughout the known Planes (including allowing core Asmodeus to ascend).
Unless, of course, Toril is THE most important world in the universe... but I've been saying that all along.  |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 21:07:55
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Shemmy wrote the Pathfinder Cosmology...
Just to clarify at bit there. I wrote that book and the cosmology entry in the campaign setting book, but the basic cosmology outline of inner/outer sphere was around prior to the point that I fleshed it out. I believe the basic structure was largely hashed out by James Jacobs who has tons of awesome ideas. I can't take credit for the whole thing.
I guess I shouldn't forget that James Jacobs guy...
|
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 20:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
You misunderstood what I said. I said that about the 4e cosmology which had massive changes to the planes, the baseline definition or existance of races and even alignments, while the 3e cosmology changes were largely cosmetic.
Ah, I see; forgive my misunderstanding. I still view the 4e changes to the cosmology, while dramatic, as a logical extension of the 3e cosmology. The 4e arrangement can still all be mapped back to the Great Tree.
I don't see why the 4e cosmology could not also work for Greyhawk's Great Wheel. All you need do is imagine astral dominions that are arrayed in a wheel that match the 2e planes. In the FR cosmos, Asmodeus hurled the Abyss into the elemental planes, but in the Great Wheel you could leave it either as an astral dominion or postulate a similar event that caused it to fall. There is precedence in lore for the elemental planes to have been reconfigured in the distant past from an ancient tetrahedral arrangement into their modern 2e arrangement. No reason to believe that some event could not have stirred them all together and diffused them throughout the Ethereal plane. The Shadowfell matches the plane of Shadow. And the plane of Faerie works for the Feywild. While my interests do not lie with Greyhawk, I imagine that a 4e Greyhawk design team could, with some effort, figure out an admirable solution. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 19:00:38
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Shemmy wrote the Pathfinder Cosmology...
Just to clarify at bit there. I wrote that book and the cosmology entry in the campaign setting book, but the basic cosmology outline of inner/outer sphere was around prior to the point that I fleshed it out. I believe the basic structure was largely hashed out by James Jacobs who has tons of awesome ideas. I can't take credit for the whole thing. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 18:44:25
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
While I have much respect for the Shemster, I strongly disagree with his notion that the 3e version of the FR cosmology was "not capable of rationalization given the amount of change, the way it was explained, and the retcons inherent in portions of it."
You misunderstood what I said. I said that about the 4e cosmology which had massive changes to the planes, the baseline definition or existance of races and even alignments, while the 3e cosmology changes were largely cosmetic. Some specific retcons aside, it's easy to rationalize the 3e cosmology into the Wheel. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 18:01:01
While I have much respect for the Shemster, I strongly disagree with his notion that the 3e version of the FR cosmology was "not capable of rationalization given the amount of change, the way it was explained, and the retcons inherent in portions of it." I actually prefer the 3e cosmology (and the 4e cosmology post-spellplague) to the Great Wheel, at least for Toril. That's not to say I don't also love the Great Wheel, I do. But, the Great Tree (now the Great Sea?) works best for planar adventuring in Faerūn, and makes sooooo much more sense when dealing with the gods and myths of the Realms.
Please note that it was Monte Cook's idea (perhaps the premier Planescape author & designer) to dump the Wheel and shake up the planes for 3e. See his design diary at this link: http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_diary_33
Further, I see no problem with explaining the changes between the 2e & 3e cosmologies. I can easily think up several explanations for pretty much any seeming inconsistency or "retcon" that was introduced. It only takes a little bit of imagination and creativity. In fact, I challenge anyone to suggest an inconsistency they think can't be explained and I will gladly suggest an explanation.
Now, I have no problem if, based on your personal preference, you prefer to use the Great Wheel cosmology for your game. Or any other cosmology you like or create. But I think the Great Tree is a wonderful cosmology, whose only flaw was that it never got developed much in novels and sourcebooks. I would love to see it developed further rather than abandoned.
As a Realms fundamentalist, I like to hew my campaign and my lore as closely to the published canon as I can. Ed Greenwood endorsed the Realms cosmology in his January 27, 2005 post in his thread here on Candlekeep, where he stated "Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as gates) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name Forgotten Realms, which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer)." Read the whole post, it's a very informative read, including info about the Slaadi, Limbo and the Supreme Throne: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3684&whichpage=9
If Ed says it, then that is my gospel, and that is all I need. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 17:07:47
Wow. No mere traveller of little note, but instead a pioneering planar pathfinder of great reknown.
I suppose my question is answered, unless Shemmy wants to add more. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 09:20:35
Shemmy wrote the Pathfinder Cosmology... |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:43:39
You seem to be the most knowledgeable planar traveler to visit Candlekeep these days, Shemmy. Which D&D cosmology (or combination of elements from same) do you personally prefer? Which third-party planar lore might you recommend? |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 07:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Two canon pieces of lore help me ignore any planer lore I don't want.
First, Ao was known to obscure the events of the ToT afterward (including having mortals forget his own existance). This allows us to ignore whatever we want, and simply chalk it up to 'Ao's Obfuscation'. now things are back to the way they should be, and all things planer are a 'great mystery'.
Second, we now know from 4e lore that 1e/2e/3e lore wasn't entirely accurate (more of that 'inaccurate reporting' that worked so well in earlier editions).
Whereas I hew to the side of the planar lore from the perspective of the planes being of primal importance rather than the imperfect understanding of mortals from a single prime material world. Of course they're (prime material mortals) going to think that like the world in the Ptolemic model of the cosmos, Toril is the center of it all, Ao is the prime mover of all things on the planes, and their gods are the most powerful and important. Out on the planes, it may be a very, very different story and the words "Clueless prime" may be tossed around quite a bit.
This of course allows us to ignore the metagame alterations to FR's cosmos in 3e (largely cosmetic) and the 4e changes which radically altered them to fit the 4e core which had no continuity with the 1e/2e/3e planar lore. That's a giant problem, they're not capable of rationalization given the amount of change, the way it was explained, and the retcons inherent in portions of it, and it's a show stopper for my consideration of 4e FR material as it may pertain to incorporation in the wider planar lore of the Great Wheel. But there lies the way to edition warring, so I shall stop. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 22:03:12
Some selected kōans (philosophical meditations) from monks of Kara-Tur's Celestial Path to Enlightenment ...
Yun-Men's Path to the Mountain
A disciple asked Master Yun-Men, "If not even a thought has arisen, can there still be any sin?"
(Paths to the outer planes can only exist through and beyond moral and ethical faults seen within oneself)
Shuzan's Short Staff
Master Shuzan held out his short staff to a monk and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. It cannot be expressed with words and it cannot be expressed without words. Now, say quickly what it is before it strikes you!"
(By imposing a name upon chaos you define part of what it is, and you define a greater part of what it is not)
Getsuan's Great Wheel
Master Getsuan asked his students, "Keichu-Gygax, the first wheel-maker of Shou, made two great wheels of seventeen spokes each. Now, suppose you removed the axle uniting the spokes; what would become of the wheel? Had Keichu-Gygax done this, could he still be called a master wheel-maker?"
(Alignment of the outer planes is mechanically precise; their symmetry may be accidental but their spinning is not the work of lesser beings) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 19:07:35
Which now brings my thoughts back full-circle to the Metatext, wherein the 'printed word' could literally alter one's perception of reality (and if your perception changes, then so does reality - I sight the example of illusion-magic once again).
And if you think 'Illusion magic' is all BS, just watch what a professional magician (like Criss Angel) does. I used to do the music for a professional magic show, and learned quite a lot; it doesn't matter what you are doing, so long as your audience sees what you want them to see - they will literally 'overlook the obvious' (seriously - stuff happens right in front of people, and once you are privy to the secrets, its like "how the hell are they NOT seeing that?")
Also, I have seen some interesting stuff on hypnotism. I've seen a documentary where people were placed in a (cave) dark room (that 100% pure black, for those of you unfamiliar with 'cave darkness'), and told that there was a light on. There were tables and chairs and magazines, and people moved about the cluttered room seeing just fine, and even reading the magazines! As far as they were concerned, the room was fully lit!
Ergo, there is proof that reality bends to our perception of it. If a person truly believes that they can do something, then they can (another example would be those stories of people lifting cars off of someone when in shock - I actually know someone that witnessed such a thing right across the street from him).
That's why history is 'written by the winners' - within a generation, their version of 'the truth' becomes the reality, regardless of what actually occurred. There are entire dept's of the gov't dedicated to screening information and controlling it, in such a way as to control how people think - the most obvious example are the 'Spin-Doctors' that work for politicians and other famous folk (called 'PR people').
I can site many examples of that within recent history (try watching a news channel broadcast from another country once in awhile ), but that's getting too RW, and I only wanted to demonstrate that this philosophy has its roots in our own reality, and not just in D&D/Fantasy. You are controlled by your beliefs, like a puppet on a string. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 18:57:31
I've always been fascinated by the idea of planar boundaries being defined by belief. A border region of Lawful Mechanus might begin to be influenced by "foreign" concepts of Good, Evil, and non-Law (Chaos) - blurring the planar boundaries and separating itself into a self-contained demiplanar region (with unique properties) which drifts closer to Arcadia, Acheron, or the Outlands. It might eventually drift back into Mechanus or blur into and be absorbed by the adjacent planes. It might be home to powers who caused it to separate in the first place or later found residence within the "vacant" plane (or were even formed/shaped entirely by the unique residual belief concepts therein). Crossing a boundary might be as simple as passing a signpost marking the city limits. ("Welcome to Lost Vegas - population 567,641 102,179 - City of Sin (former municipality of Mechanus).")
The Ravenloft setting, the Demiplane of Dread, is described as containing isolated domains separated by mist. The mists are said to disturbingly connect to any world and any plane and thereby (involuntarily) draw lands and peoples into this demiplane. Sometimes, a particularly "dreadful" realm from another place can become an entirely new island-domain forever lost within the shifting misty borders of Ravenloft.
Question: what happens at the place where such a domain was originally located? Would Zhentil Keep simply become an eternal blight of inpenetrable mist (and possibly a permanent one-way planar link to the demiplane), or would the mists gradually dissipate and leave nothing of note where Zhentil Keep once stood? Incidentally, Szass Tam's undead Thay seems like a very good candidate for such planar adoption, perhaps this is prevented only by the Dread Ring or Bane's power. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 18:12:25
This idea suggests canon lore is basically just a mechanistic orrery, a fancy (and evolving) roadmap to the cosmos.
It also suggests that the infinite universes are essentially just macroscopic versions of raw chaos infinitely reshaped by the expectations (and limitations) of inhabitants, somewhat like Limbo but infinitely more. Belief allows the "outer planes" (and their gods, proxies, and natives) to exist, and most of these seek to maintain this belief to insure their continued existence. Some entities (game designers, DMs, Ao, RL powers?) have powers of sufficient magnitude to impose the lens of their beliefs with (immense clarity, intensity, and focus) onto lesser inhabitants when burning the patterns of the cosmos. It could be argued that Ao's proclamations shifted his "maintenance" chores onto the gods themselves so that he could dedicate more of his own energies to creating a better cosmos filled with new game mechanics.
Of course there's a certain "inertia" to belief. A handful (or an entire world!) of even the most fervently devoted players can hardly expect to influence the collective belief of all the infinite inhabitants of all the infinite planes, though sometimes new concepts develop surprising influence and inertia of their own. Entities like Ao can redirect this inertia to greater effect, but even they suffer from practical limits. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 17:49:21
I had thoughts along similar lines, hence my constantly evolving over-cosmology (which needs to incorporate ALL other mythologies in it's model).
Reality is what you make of it. 
People see what they want to see, and what they expect to see, and can also be 'blocked' by those beliefs (in much the same way that Illusion magic works). For instance, An FR Prime traveling through the planes with a GH Prime would have to explain to his companion that he must 'dip' back into the Material World in-order to enter the next plane, whereas the GH prime would look at him like he's nuts (because they CAN move from plane to plane in their belief system). The really odd thing about that situation is that if the GH prime is an experienced planer traveler, he may have grouped with FR Primes before, who had no such difficulties (only since the Great tree came about in 3e did that become a problem, which I think was all part of Ao's Obfuscation). The 'Tree' FR primes 'see' is nothing more then a piece of the astral (or near-Ethereal, depending on the timeframe and your cosmology).
And I have always felt that the planes were never really where people think they are (in ANY cosmology) - cosmologies are just 2D or even 3D models of something that exists in at least eleven dimensions, and is therefor incomprehensible to a mortal mind. The Great Wheel never really had all those planes attached - the 'gateway' towns were precisely that - GATEways. Every Plane exists in a dimension all its own, and how its connected to others (through Gates/Conduits) is how we wind-up with all these complicated (yet very inaccurate) models of the universe. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 01:40:30
You're apparently reading from the same sources I am, Sage. Thanks for looking. "Rakshasa" is as good a name as any other, I suppose. They are drawn from Indian mythology (that is Indo-Asian, Hindu, among other sources); languages and religions and cultures about which I'm entirely ignorant (beyond a little wikipedia).
But my twist on explaining the impossible cosmic restructuring of the planes and Ao's Obfuscation -
The changing structure of the cosmology (layered onion, Great Wheel, World Tree, Astral Domains, faith-based, alignment-based, Eberron-based, 5E, Big Bang, whatever), along with the changed names and properties and existence of many planes may have a more fundamental explanation.
The planes (whatever and wherever they actually are) are asserted as being sustained in some way by belief. Any particular model of the planes is shaped by the consensus of belief; when everybody believes the planes follow a particular structure then that's manifested in the ways and structures of the cosmos (even when you impossibly believe things at present are just as they have always been). Belief acts as a filter when perceiving the planes, inhabitants of different Primes would (correctly) view their particular belief as the "true" paradigm of the planes and their interactions with the planes are governed accordingly. Ao's Obfuscation is itself nothing more than a transient sophistry which allows the planes to be exactly as they are. If/when nobody believed in the planes then they simply would not exist (not simply cease to exist but actually never exist). The planes span all of eternity, there's infinite time for the existence of every possibility, even paradoxically exclusive simultaneous possibilities. Our world might explain these properties of the universe (or many universes) as some sort of interaction between an observer and quantum states that dictate physical laws.
Every world on every D&D gaming table exists somewhere and somehow on the planes, even many that are utterly unrecognizable, bizarre, or barely tangential to "baseline" D&D worlds, even when each of these worlds has different views of the cosmos. (Even when differents groups of inhabitants on these worlds have different views of the cosmos, as with say the Celtic World Tree and Egyptian Underworlds, each defining a complete cosmology of the planes that is blind to the other, though both sharing time and space on one world.)
Planewalker offers an interesting conception of the Modron language. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 00:48:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmm. I'm on the train at the moment, so I can't check. But I seem to recall the third-party Complete Guide to Rakshasas tome covering something about that. As does the EBERRON material too, IIRC.
I'll have to look it up once I'm home.
Okay, I must've been misremembering. Both sources suggest Infernal is a commonly used rakshasa tongue.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 00:19:29
Two canon pieces of lore help me ignore any planer lore I don't want.
First, Ao was known to obscure the events of the ToT afterward (including having mortals forget his own existance). This allows us to ignore whatever we want, and simply chalk it up to 'Ao's Obfuscation'. now things are back to the way they should be, and all things planer are a 'great mystery'.
Second, we now know from 4e lore that 1e/2e/3e lore wasn't entirely accurate (more of that 'inaccurate reporting' that worked so well in earlier editions). For instance, the elemental planes were not the 'default' system - at some point those planes were 'distilled' out of the Maelsrtom, which is the natural state of the Elemental Chaos. When the Spellplague destroyed the Weave, it sent a magical 'shockwave' across the planes, and many things reverted to their primal states.
Ergo, thanks to 4e's radical revamping of the heavens (and hells), and Ao's Obfuscation, we can make any changes we want and not violate canon (which has violated itself).
Thats why I just ignore most of 3e's cosmological changes and say it was all a big 'lie' - that the Great wheel IS the default setting. The Tree was just a 'local cosmology' - the way one particular mortal world pictured the Planes after Ao screwed with everyone's minds.
And I'm still a big fan of reducing redundancy. Batrachi, Slaadi, Neraphi, ect... maybe even those LoD Shadowvar (I think that where they appeared)... may not be the same race, but they had a common origin IMHO. Just like how you can talk about Eladrin, Avariel, Lythari, Drow, etc... and say they are all very different creatures (and you'd be right), but at the end of the day, they are all just Elves to me.
And a reptile is a reptile is a reptile.
Which makes me now wonder why the Sarrukh weren't associated with all the 'froggie' races - that would have made much more sense. Ithyoids and Amphibians have nothing to do with each other. Then again, maybe its the Ithyoids that need to go....
Sarrukh and Batrachi are too much alike... I say they just say the Batrachi were the 'mermaid' version of the sarrukh and get rid of them - we need a 'bug' creator race.
Or maybe the Batrachi were to the Sarrukh what the Dire Wraiths were to the Skrulls (an aberrant genetic deviation). That would violate a lot of canon, but I may do something along those lines for my HB.
OR converesly, go back to what started me down this train of thought, and have the Batrachi related to the Neraphim, and the Slaad related to the Sarrukh... that might work... then I wouldn't need to change as much and still curtail a bunch of redundancy...
Anyhow, I love that Mechanus allows for 'universal translation' - that's PERFECT! Those crystals I talked about, that allow easy psionic-based understanding? We can say those grow all over the plane of Mechanus (probably a 'hold-over' when that plane was ruled by the Lords of Creation and was called Nirvana). Within the plane there are enough of them around to form a tapable network, but outside of it you would need to use one in a symbiotic relationship. So now all you have to do is go to Mechanus and have one of their Bio-repair units (steampunk surgeon-bots) install one at the base of your cortex. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 23:19:37
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
My specific question about natives is this: would a splinter race of Gith, about as old as the Githzerai, be considered "native" to Acheron after dwelling there over many centuries/millenia? (The natives of that plane are immune to many of its most menacing attributes.)
Not sure what the official rules say (not sure if there are any rules) but I would say, yes, over the course of generations of uninterrupted dwelling in one of the Outer Planes, a splinter race would become "native." I would also limit this effect to the Outer Planes, where belief is power - if the splinter group, over the course of millenia, actually all came to believe that they are natives of the plane, then yes. If they continue to consider themselves exiles, and long for their original home ("next year in Calimport..."), then no. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 17:37:36
I rather like your treatment of half-fiend dual-planar advantages being "useful", Thauramarth; it also seems to fit in nicely with their mix of "best of both worlds" alignment characteristics and such, they can serve as a liaison promoting planar philosophies simply through expressing their own basic nature. Perhaps the "unique" qualities of Primes are requisite, perhaps Astral or somewhat adjacent planes as well. It might be extended to half-celestials, half-modrons, half-slaadi, and half-elementals - if such creatures exist (as suggested by the diluted aasimar and genasi bloodlines). I can't readily conceive of Modron-Baatezu or Slaad-Tanar'ri hybrids, though nothing's ever impossible on the planes.
[Edit: I wonder if Fey'ri (true half-fiends, not the Tiefling-equivalent masses of Daemonfey) are dual-natives of the Abyss and Feywild?]
My specific question about natives is this: would a splinter race of Gith, about as old as the Githzerai, be considered "native" to Acheron after dwelling there over many centuries/millenia? (The natives of that plane are immune to many of its most menacing attributes.) |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 16:43:43
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Immunity from local conditions, in my view, is a matter of race rather than place of birth.
Githzerai are native to Limbo, Githyanki to Astral. On their respective planes, both are immune to the ambient difficulties, both have developed some special advantages. Clearly they started off as one race. Are they just an unusually adaptable species or is there more? Limbo, at least, is definitely a most inimical environ.
In my opinion (and that's all it is), the Githzerai and the Githyanki have been separated for long enough to become distinct "races" for the purposes of these rules. Other than that, Limbo is a special plane anyway, a plane of chaos where newcomers could perhaps adapt faster (or perhaps the plane adapts to them - after all, the chaos shaping proficiency allows someone to change local conditions in limbo.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Would your "best of both worlds" let a half-fiend (eventually) adapt to the lower planes as a native?
My approach to "best of both worlds" would be that a half-fiend would be considered a native of both the plane of the fiendish parent and the plane of the non-fiendish parent (most likely a mortal from the prime), get the advantages of being both prime and planar (if the non-fiendish parent was a prime), without the advantages. It makes the half-fiends a bit more "useful" to their fiendish parent, in the sense that they get an agent that cannot be summoned (and controlled by its summoner...) and not easily banished from the Prime Material Plane.
But, like I said, it's just one of my house rules on half-fiends (which, in my campaigns, were more expansive than the cambion / alu-fiend; I used quite a bit of material on half-demons drawn from Mayfair Games Demons series, and some world-specific items). |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 09:15:37
Hmmm. I'm on the train at the moment, so I can't check. But I seem to recall the third-party Complete Guide to Rakshasas tome covering something about that. As does the EBERRON material too, IIRC.
I'll have to look it up once I'm home. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 09:02:55
quote:
Immunity from local conditions, in my view, is a matter of race rather than place of birth.
Githzerai are native to Limbo, Githyanki to Astral. On their respective planes, both are immune to the ambient difficulties, both have developed some special advantages. Clearly they started off as one race. Are they just an unusually adaptable species or is there more? Limbo, at least, is definitely a most inimical environ.
Would your "best of both worlds" let a half-fiend (eventually) adapt to the lower planes as a native?
Final question - the Rakshasa language (if there is one) ... I know I listed them above, but my reading hasn't actually found any reference. What is this language? Should I just call it Planeskrit? |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 08:32:59
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I have my own questions about planar lore. There are planars (natives of any one of the planes) and there are primes (natives of a prime, aka clueless, although a prime is really just another plane if you want to be technical). Of course natives are always familiar with their surroundings, wherever they live, that's a given.
What are the functional differences between planars and primes, in terms of game mechanics. Specifically, what abilities do planars as a group possess that primes do not?
How long does it take for a population to become "native" to a plane? Githzerai are natives of Limbo descended from Githyanki, themselves natives of the Astral who arrived from somewhere else. Do you become native by just learning the lore, breathing, eating, and drinking the stuff of a plane for a year, a century, a millenium? Are your offspring automatically natives? Is there any magical or spiritual requirement or just a purely temporal physical one? I ask because natives of many planes are mostly immune to the hostile peculiarities unique to their plane (which non-natives must endure).
I'm going by the 2E Planescape rules, here (Player's Guide to the Planes).
A creature is a planar or a prime by birth (barring some magical transformation from one into the other, of course). No matter how long a planar spends on the prime or vice versa, they remain planar (and vice versa). "Clueless" is not a synonym of "Prime", it's a state of mind. Its opposite would be "Blood". A Clueless is a creature (regardless of origin) who is uneducated in the ways of the planes. Many primes getting to the planes do tend to be Clueless, and many planars assume that all primes are clueless, but a planar who spent his entire life in the green pastures of Elysium would be equally clueless. On the other hand, a wizard schooled in planar lore before he ever went to the planes would probably not be considered clueless. Clueless is a function of knowledge, not of power - a 20th level wizard who's never heard of the planes could be clueless, whereas a 1st level thief who was born and bred in Sigil, and had the run of the town and all its denizens, might be considered a Blood.
From a mechanics POV - Primes are never considered extraplanar creatures (no matter where they are) for the purpose of standardspells that affect such creatures. For example, they would be affected by the "to hit" penalties of a 2E protection from evil spell, but would not be hindered from actually touching the protected creature. They could not be snared by summoning spells, banished by banishment spells, or be susceptible to any spells that block extraplanar creatures, no matter where they are. Note that this only applies to the "standard" range of spells, which tend to be Prime-centric. It might be possible for a planar spellcaster to have developed variants of the spells above that specifically target primes.
Planars are considered extraplanar creatures for the purpose of all of the above spells. I tend to make one exception: on their native planes, they are considered "non-extraplanar" (though not primes), which would mean, for instance, that a protection from evil spell will not stop a baatezu, on Baator, of touching the protected being. On a more positive note, Planars can see passages between planes (portals, gates, etc.), but do not necessarily know how to make them work.
As a houserule, I tend to make half-fiends and half-celestials get "the best of both worlds", regardless of whether they are primes or planars by birth.
Immunity from local conditions, in my view, is a matter of race rather than place of birth. E.g., an efreeti born away from the elemental plane of fire would still be immune to the local conditions of that plane, whereas a human born on the elemental plane of fire, would not be. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 18 Nov 2010 : 02:39:12
I have my own questions about planar lore. There are planars (natives of any one of the planes) and there are primes (natives of a prime, aka clueless, although a prime is really just another plane if you want to be technical). Of course natives are always familiar with their surroundings, wherever they live, that's a given.
What are the functional differences between planars and primes, in terms of game mechanics. Specifically, what abilities do planars as a group possess that primes do not?
How long does it take for a population to become "native" to a plane? Githzerai are natives of Limbo descended from Githyanki, themselves natives of the Astral who arrived from somewhere else. Do you become native by just learning the lore, breathing, eating, and drinking the stuff of a plane for a year, a century, a millenium? Are your offspring automatically natives? Is there any magical or spiritual requirement or just a purely temporal physical one? I ask because natives of many planes are mostly immune to the hostile peculiarities unique to their plane (which non-natives must endure). |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 14:46:32
In view of the properties of Mechanus, it would seem sensible for Limbo to utterly lack any identifiable common language structure at all. The language of chaos would be eternally reshaped to fit the needs of the ever-changing environment, topic, and denizens of the plane. Or instead of one "official" language it could have two or two-hundred; the less order and cooperation the better.
Perhaps the language of the gods (Supernal? Primeval?) would also have different levels of complexity that each contain greater vocabulary, subtleties, and sophistication than those before. The greater powers would need to discuss "more" facets of the cosmos than the lesser powers could even comprehend. Plus they wouldn't necessarily want to be overhead by their inferiors; a single statement spoken in this language could carry unambiguous layers of multiple meanings, the message depending on the cosmic station of each listener. As gods, the speakers of this language could "change" the properties of Supernal itself to fit their required intent each time it is spoken; each utterance could be a minor act of creation that instantly and forever defines some quality of their shared Supernal language.
Each of the various powers (and their planar domains) would likely speak tongues recognizable to their worshippers. And they'd likely speak the main languages of the other denizens of the plane on which they reside. For example, Lei Kung and Amatsu-Mikabosh (Chinese and Japanese deities, presumably worshipped in Kara-Tur) both have realms on the plane of Acheron, so they (or even their worshippers) might even speak Duergar, Orc, Bladeling, Rust Dragon, Rakshasa - even though these other languages are otherwise of no consequence to them.
The many different names of Planar Common could indicate regional preferences or the inconsistent "pidgen" nature of this mish-mosh language. It is not a formal language so much as a convenient common ground; it would vary from plane to plane, being strongly bastardized by words from whatever other languages are spoken in the locality. In a way, every plane (or planar layer) would speak a unique dialect of planar common; one could dedicate a lifetime (or a dozen lifetimes) to learning them all but never succeed, or one could just pick up enough basic knowledge of planar common (in a few months, perhaps) to fumble through conversation as well as everyone else. Racial influence on PC language has less effect on the planes than it does on the primes (unless you're a fiend or other planar freak) while "cultural" influence (largely dictated by the physics of the land) have far greater impact.
[Edit]
The comparatively unglamorous inner planes must each also have their own elemental "common" dealing with the fundamental matter at hand in their conversations. I'd wonder if these have any kind of connection with the secret language of druids, given all the hierophants who must wander these planes. There are apparently languages connected with shadow and fey demiplanes, although "voidspeech" or "lifespeech" might be beyond the comprehension of all but a few deities (like Shar) who's power manifests through them. What other purpose would a language serve if only one individual could speak it?
The astral and ethereal planes are usually more "roads" than "destinations". They may have no special common tongues at all beyond those spoken by long-term inhabitants (Githyanki, etc). |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 03:52:25
Baatezu would be the same as Infernal, of course.
The demons didn't have a single tongue in 2E, but now I am thinking that Abyssal is actually Yugoloth. That makes way more sense. Probably Graz'zt and maybe Orcus use it as the language of their courts, as Orcus's undead legions may not be telepathic. So when the demons need a spoken tongue, they use Yugoloth, and the misnomer "Abyssal" has stuck to it. Heck, for all we know, the Yugoloths like that it is called Abyssal because this is confusing to people and it is untrue. How cool is that? That even the name of the Yugoloth tongue is a lie!
My take on Celestial is that Archons invented the Celestial tongue, now called the Supernal tongue in 4e. Guardinals and Eladrins actually speak the same language as the Archons, they just simply speak "regional" dialects of Celestial. The Archons speak a very proper, grammatically correct, posh version of Celestial. It is a precise, orderly language with very regular grammar. It doesn't have a lot of synonyms because a word means exactly what it means, so one word will do.
The Eladrin speak a bastardized form of Celestial, pronouncing the words differently, irregularly. They have added a lot of slang words. Perhaps 20% to 30% of their vocabulary comprises new words or unorthodox uses for standard words. The Eladrin speak a hipster version of Celestial filled with metaphors and poetic allusions. While it may be the same language that the Archons speak, the dialect is probably only 70% mutually comprehensible which would lead to confusing conversations between Archons and Eladrins. The Archons think the Eladrin speak some base, gutter-talk perversion of their beautiful language, and the Eladrin think the Archons are hoity-toity, self-important, stuffed shirts.
Guardinals speak a bestial form of Celestial, more suited to the vocal apparatus of their animal forms. It is closer to Archon than Eladrin, but they understand the Eladrin dialect better than the Archons do. Guardinal probably splits the difference between the two extremes and is 80-90% mutually comprehensible to both the Archon and Eladrin dialects. Features of the Guardinal dialect involve phonetic additions such as hoots, growls, snarls, barks and whistles. The new vocabulary they have contributed probably entails more words for emotional states, passions, group dynamics, and animal anatomy and behaviors.
I actually created a version of Celestial with a pretty comprehensive vocabulary and grammar. I made my own alphabet for it, would even like to turn it into a font, though I was waiting to see if Wizards would ever unveil the Celestial font they commissioned from Daniel Reeves. It was supposed to be in the Plane Above sourcebook, but the art director or editor or someone seems to have accidentally left the picture of the Celestial Alphabet out of the book. I wonder if they will ever show it to us.
I should make a pdf or something detailing the specifics of my Celestial tongue, and put it out there for people to see. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 17 Nov 2010 : 00:16:29
You ask about languages, I give you languages.
2E Planewalker's Handbook lists Archon, Asuras, Baatezu, Baku, Bariaur, Bladeling, Dao, Djinni, Efreeti, Eladrin, Formian, Gehreleth, Githyanki, Githzerai, Guardinal, Khaasta, Marid, Mephit, Modron (costs 2 slots), Nereid, Night Hag, Slaad, Slyph, Tanar'ri, Tso, Yugoloth.
Also ...
Most planars know a language referred to as Planar Common, or Planar Trade. In fact, the language stems from the earliest planar settlers from the Prime, who brought their Common tongue with them. Although the language has seen many new variations develop (including the cant, or planar slang), it remains essentially understandable even by the greenest primes.
Many native planar races look down upon this common tongue, regarding it as a backwater prime carryover. Others see the value in a common language: in fact, the Lower Planes had established a trading language [[Lower Planar Trade]] even before the advent of Planar Common.
It's assumed that all PCs, prime or planar, speak this language. Not all NPCs speak Planar Common, however. Even when they do, most folks enjoy conversing in their native tongues rather than a simple trading tongue.
(also referred to in other books as - Plane Speak, Planespeak, planar cant)
Dabus is impossible for any character to learn.
Aasimar, genasi, and tieflings do not have their own languages.
2E Faces of Evil: The Fiends
(brief quick'n'dirty summary)
Baatezu -
is a highly evolved and complicated language. The language itself is structured within 6 different castes, each successive level adding more complexity and malevolence. Different stations use different inflections. Baatezu will only know (or admit to knowing) the languages of their station and lower; being caught speaking a tongue of higher station brings punishment; of course, knowing more about higher language allows a fiend to eavesdrop and possibly gain knowledge helpful in advancing rank.
Tanar'ri -
telepathic "mindspeak" up to a range of perhaps 1000 yards, even across crowded battlefields (though mental shouting has effects similar to verbal shouting), Tanar'ri can mindspeak with any intelligent race, typically relaying concepts and symbols more than words. Lower fiends are unable to express complex ideas and usually project simple, harsh, crude symbols. Smarter fiends are capable of more sophisticated mindspeak. There is always a degree of relative imprecision involved in mindspeak. Tanar'ri delight in mindspeaking foul symbols that "burn themselves permanently into the receiver's mind". Some Tanar'ri have mastered spoken languages, but the bulk of Tanar'ri simply make noise.
Yugoloth -
a complex language, the most foul, corrupt, and unspeakable of the fiends. Yugos tend to prefer verbal speech to foil telepathic eavesdropping. They all speak the same language, although it doesn't sound like it. Greater capacity for evil is required to attain greater vocabulary; no mortal has been known to speak better than a nycaloth, it's impossible to navigate the labyrinth of foulness and subtle deception beyond that. Even balors and pit fiends cannot decipher the "secret tongue" of the ultroloths. Complete mastery of the language corrupts the soul so absolutely that one might very well become a yugoloth.
* you've of course noted the absence of Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal (these cooler names hadn't yet been canonized at the time).
The translating property of Mechanus is repeated in several books, though I personally like modem and sine-wave. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 10:34:27
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It begs the question of encrypted modrons.
Ha! What do you call a modron burial? Encryption. What's the modron variant of the animate dead spell? Decrypt modron. |
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