| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 17:31:33
|
Planescape is definately not my primary area of interest, but since I need to know a lot about the planes to figure-out my own version of FR's cosmology, I figure I might as well start a thread for Planescape questions (and anyone should be able to use this thread - the more the merrier).
Just one for now, but I will have more. I have most of the books, but rather then do all that research for simple questions I figure it would be more efficient to just ask the many scribes who know far more then I.
Is there a 'Planer common' language?
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2010 18:59:06
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 18:10:24
|
I don't think they seperated common from the different primes from eachother no. There is a very distinct "planar slang" popular in the Planescape setting though.
Words such as Berk (fool) and Cutter (though guy/gal) and sayings such as "running a green one" (to be envious of someone) or to "skin a razor" (drive a hard bargain) really added loads of flavour to the Sigil setting. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
 |
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 18:22:38
|
| Yeah it was sort of handwaved as "common" in use in major cities on the planes where mortals interacted heavily, with a distinct dialect being present for its use in Sigil with the Sigilian Cant slang. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 21:36:40
|
Likewise, most powerful outsiders have access to telepathy or a tongues ability, both of which bypass the need for a common language. That said, Common seems to be, well, the most common planar language, cant dialects included, berk.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 23:17:27
|
| I think it's been referred to as Planespeak, but I can't remember where. Where language is mentioned at all it's just blanketed as "common". |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 18:58:48
|
Hmmmmmm... I remember it being very flavorful, but I had thought it was a Wheel-speciic language, used as 'planer Common' throughout the Upper and Lower Planes.
I didn't realize it was supposed to be the same 'common' as used on Prime Worlds (which seems patently ridiculous to me, because that means each world's 'Common' is the same?
Why would ANYONE ever bother to learn anything else, then? regional languages seem completely pointless.
I understand the reasoning behind it (its the same reasoning as to why we have a common tongue at all), but it seems to me a bit too 'Star Trekish'. Mechanically it's a nice, simple solution, but it seems a bit too simple (which is probably why no one ever bothered with Language slots).
I have to assume that English is earth's 'Common'? Spanish is more widely spoken, and there are more Chinese-speaking people, so either of those would make more sense if there was some sort of 'cosmic ruling' as too which becomes the 'Common Tongue'.
Which makes me now wonder if its possible to shift a Sphere's common to something else....
And now I'm thinking about my own cosmology in regards to this, and weather 'The God(s)' somehow flipped the 'default switch' to 'off' on this particular Cosmic Mechanism here on Earth awhile back....
Tower of Babel, anyone? That must have been one heck of an uber-epic spell!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2010 19:01:09 |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 19:11:52
|
| FWIW, in my own games I use a specific Planar Common as the mortal trade language on the planes, developed in Sigil and the gate towns. It's not linked to any material sphere 'common', but a gobbledegook of hundreds of them mixed with the planar languages and distilled into something with its own rules and such. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 23:04:31
|
That what I was thinking as well.
Hell, if the Underdark can have its own, distinct language - Undercommon - then it only makes sense that the Planes should have a separate one too (or do people from the Underdark traveling through the planes suddenly understand someone from the surface who is also traveling through the planes? there's a headache-inducer for you).
I can guess you can either go with RAW and just ignore it (which keeps things nice and simple for the GM), or go with all separate world 'commons' (and Planer and Underdark as well), and give yourself a lot of work (but fun roleplay potential).
You could also say that part of the magic that allows a person to travel from plane to plane automatically allows understanding of the most commonly spoken tongue on that plane. I think that may have been what Ed used (or someone else in authority who was asked this once). There are still glitches with that - does the person travels from the Prime automatically speak the planer or other-world common, or must they speak the language considered 'common' on their own world for this to work? If it works for every language, then you could theoretically use planer travel in lieu of a comprehend languages spell (which I think would be the spell attached to most planer-traveling magic). Too much to think about there.
Or you could go with the Well of Souls alternative, which I am considering. In those stories, people (different races) couldn't understand each other until they had a translator crystal imbedded in their throats (it worked psionically somehow, and tapped directly into your spine/lower brain as well). The folks actually spoke different languages, but were all able to understand each other, similar to the Universal translators of Star Trek, except it was based on telepathy, not super-tech.
I think I'm going to go with that for my HB, but put a disturbing 'aberrational' spin on it. Have it be some sort of parasite from the Far Realms, which burrows into your brain and allows you to understand what others are saying (but the other person would have to have one for them to understand you, which is how the crystals worked in those novels). I'll have to think about a drawback, aside from the usual revulsion most folks would feel if offered one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2010 18:09:56 |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 14:03:10
|
That's my take on it as well - I basically treat each World's common as a different language (or even each sub-setting; there's different "common" in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Faerūn. World-spanning travellers would either use Planar Common or Wildspace Common. On the other hand, I've had a tendency to treat "Elvish" as "Elvish" everywhere (not sure why, maybe based on the assumption that they have a common cultural base, resulting from all of them worshiping the Seldarine).
As with other scribes, my assumption is basically that the Common tongue for a given local is either a hodgepodge of the local languages, or one particular local language that has achieved dominance in one way or the other, such as the language used by the administration of a large empire, for instance. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 18:31:12
|
The 'common' of Kara-Tur is referred to as the 'Trade Tongue'.
And the Tuigan - ignorant as they are - are the only people who as a rule speak both commons (aside from their own dialects).
Also, I just happen to be reading Corsair last night, and realized the Neogi (in space) seem to speak common as well, and since I really doubt they speak every common in every sphere, I would have to go with the Star Trekish model and use either crystals a'la Well of Souls, or my own aberrational 'mind worm' (or both - perhaps the crystals are the Speljammer method and the parasite is a Planscape method).
Also, since canonically we have at least three versions of Elvish (GH/core, FR, and a new Lythari one created by Mark Sehestedt), I would go with a 'High {olde) Elven' and a local sphere-specific dialect. Ancient Elven (probably Seldruin - the prefix 'sel' equating to something like 'royal', and 'druin' meaning language) would be very similar to the Fey/LaShay tongue, and rarely be used - it is an archaic 'court language' used only for ceremonies and high magic rituals. In that way we can have an 'Elf Common' that only Elves (theoretically) should know and be able to communicate across worlds, but humans and others who know the local dialect of Elven would not be able to do likewise.
The same should go for Dwarves, and I would go so far as to say that Gnomes use Olde dwarvish for their extra-spheric communication as well.
Halflings, I think, should speak whatever languages are the most common in the region they are from. I just don't see their being a 'Halfling Common'. HOWEVER, I've been considering giving all of them a bit of the Ghostwise mind-speak ability. Nothing like psionics, or even as good as the regular Ghostwise ability - more of a racial empathy they can only use with each other (Ghostwise can mind-speak with other races, apparently). The logic I would use for that is to say that at one time all Halflings had the Ghostwise ability, but now only pure strains of Halfling blood still carry it (Halflings are notorious for inter-breeding with humans, Elves, Gbomes, and Dwarves - that's where we get all those 1e/2e sub-races from).
New Question: is their a fiend common? Or does each group have their own tongue? IIRC, 'Celestial' is the tongue for all the 'goodly' Outer-plane beings, correct? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2010 18:33:45 |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 19:17:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
New Question: is their a fiend common? Or does each group have their own tongue? IIRC, 'Celestial' is the tongue for all the 'goodly' Outer-plane beings, correct?
Nope, there's no fiend common. It's just Abyssal, Infernal, and depending on edition there's also Yugoloth. In theory they're all by some degree derived from or inspired by Ancient Baernaloth. Gehreleth may have been its own language as well, but would need to break out Faces of Evil to check on that. The language subsections of each fiend chapter in Faces of Evil are awesome. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 19:38:45
|
I only know of Celestial (upper planes), Infernal (Baatezu), and Abyssal (Tanar'ri).
A common Fiendish tongue ranging across the lower planes makes sense. What do the Yugoloths speak?
Aasimons, Archons, Angels, Devas, and the like seem to range across all the upper planes. Though I wonder why the lawful and chaotic extremes don't have distinct languages. It could be argued that they like to intercommunicate and cooperate a lot, leading to a shared language - compared against the fiends who instead like being divided by their Blood War.
Linguistic symmetry would make a lot of sense, but berks who assume the planes make sense up in the dead book awful quick.
To nitpick, I'd expect Modrons and Slaad to have distinct languages. I'd expect a distinct language on each plane, perhaps in some cases on each layer of each plane. I seriously doubt the Elven and Norse afterlifes speak the same native language, even though they share a CG plane. Githzerai and Slaad speak distinct languages, not "Limbosh". Humans will devise a hundred languages on every world ... while, oddly, all the other sentient races typically manage only one (and even that is often stolen or debased common) ... really bright races like elves sometimes figure out a whole handful of languages, though they always have to be a semi-related family with shared words and structures to make inter-elven interactions simpler.
My personal ruling is that language across the infinite planes mirrors the complexities of real life. Notice that our RL moronic world leaders, politicians, and governments can figure out ways around the language problem even without having access to lowly 1st level Comprehend Languages and Tongues. To make things marginally easier, I assume since Sigil is the nexus of the planes a lot of planars learn at least a little "common" (and "common" in turn has some small influence on their own local tongues). Most planar sentients are linguistic telepaths anyhow, they would probably view language-users as being rudely autistic; I can't see why they'd even bother to have a usable language.
As a note of interest, I point out that 1E AD&D had "alignment tongues" which people of same alignment could use to identify each other and communicate. Higher level assassins could even learn multiple alignment tongues to assist with their spying and killing. Alignment tongues were dropped in 2E (and yes, they are a slightly ridiculous concept) but perhaps you could say that they were debased simplifications of the tongues spoken on the outer planes? Remember that existence in these planes is fueled by the very concepts which define alignment beliefs, they would have as many words to describe subtleties of good/evil/law/chaos as the Inuit (Eskimos) have for snow. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Nov 2010 20:14:25 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 20:07:38
|
I never liked Alignment Tongues (nor did any DM I knew use them).
However, I hate just dropping 'old lore' out-of-hand, and I must say I find your solution rather brilliant, Arik. 
It fits into my own version of the Wheel even better then the canon one - I can just say that each 'slice' of the wheel has it's own common, and thats where the notion of 'Alignment Tongues' came from.
Thanks Arik - one more piece of the cosmic puzzle.
And THANK YOU Shemmy, for that quick and precise answer. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2010 20:08:43 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 13:35:47
|
| The Planewalker Handbook says the Planar Common originates from a Prime language of the earliest planewalkers. I have it to be the Imaskari. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 13:49:55
|
I would imagine the first planewalkers actually originated in Greyhawk.  |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:08:38
|
| Me, I'd guess that the first planewalkers were from the planes themselves. Natives to the planes would know, far better than a clueless prime, about the existence of other planes. It would be from them that the first Prime planeswalkers learned of the planes, if not the art of walking them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:23:52
|
I was (half-jokingly) thinking more in terms of Oerth's history going back to circa 1972RL or so, some 15 years before FR0 was even published. In a way, guys like Zagyg and Mordenkainen had a serious head start on ancient Imaskar. How that would retcon into D&D timelines would itself be a complex scroll full of headache-inducing arguments.
But as far as Realms canon goes, Imaskar may have been the very first (or at least among the first) groups to venture to the planes from Faerūn (and I honestly don't have a clue how that would correlate with events in Greyhawk's calendar) but I suspect that the eternal and infinite planes would likely have already been long inhabited when the Imaskari arrived. I think it would be arrogant for people of any world (Abier-Toril included) to lay claim to having seeded the previously empty planes, although it's easily possible that (like the true origins of the Blood War) nobody can possibly remember how things were before - so the Imaskari claim is no less valid than any other. Just my thoughts, I'm a little weak on planar lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:58:27
|
don't you know who build Sigil and Aoskar? Imaskari transcended time ;)
for my game it works cause time flows differently in the planes, they're about 10 000 years old in Prime time, since the formation of mortal belief and gods
PH says the planewalkers were from the Prime, not other planes, in Greyhawk the aboleths would be the first, but I don't think their language would be widely accepted, nor the phirblas, maybe the vaati or mercane |
|
|
|
Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:20:12
|
Among the earliest mortals on the planes, it's difficult to say because the earliest histories of the planes don't have specific dates, just relative ones and only much much later can we assign numerical dates and it's also not always easy matching planar events to the chronologies of specific material worlds and getting them to mesh (largely due to each setting's writers not necessarily taking other worlds and the planes into account). For instance there's the problems between the old 1e Bloodstone modules and the 2e Dead Gods/Great Modron March (and later 3e sources that follow up on it). Personally I have a burning seething pit in Avernus reserved for all the extant copies of H4, but we're stuck with attempting to make it somehow mesh with all of the later material that it conflicts with.
That said, I think we need to immediately look at the illithids and later the githyanki and githzerai as early mortals to travel the planes of their own volition. But it would seem obvious that well prior to that point that mortals were out on the planes by accident via natural portals, and even before then select mortals were out there serving as proxies and heralds of various gods. Some of the earliest planar sources seem to take for granted mortals being on the planes (for instance the ancient text at the prologue for Faction War). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:23:35
|
Actually, I have it where the Imaskari discovered a ruined Hutaakan (Gnollish) temple to Aoskar (which they referred to under another name), who in-turn discovered that god through even more ancient Batrachi ruins.
ERGO, the Batarchi would be the first (at least in my own timeline). Since I've also related them to the Slaad (in an old thread here), it all comes full-circle once again.
To an aquatic/amphibious race, the Planes were simply another 'sea' to swim through. A race that hails from water would not view the nature of the material world the same way that a surface-dweller would (their minds would be much more apt to think in other dimensions). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 20:28:44 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:51:55
|
I think it has to be a human language, I doubt the planar merchants speak frog, the giths are good idea
then again considering batrachi highy adaptive nature, maybe they invented the babel fish, or the giths stole it from the aberrations |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 23:36:25
|
I don't think 'Planer Common' is Batrachi - I just think they may have been instrumental in it's spread. It probably comprises words from dozens of different languages (just as Common, Undercommon, and Trade-speak do).
I would say there is some Abyssal and Celestial in it, along with many others.
So 'Common' on our world would probably be Spanglish. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 01:47:47
|
Esta Loco?
I'm rather partial to the Gith setting the standard for a 'Planar Common' too, but the lore on them being from a world where the Ilithids ruled all -and the 'thids being from a distant future- muddles things quite a bit.
Gith language might not be so complex as they'd likely initially have relied heavily on telepathy just as their masters did. The needed complexity to organize a revolt under the telepathic scrutiny of their mindflayer masters could have resulted in a complex but subtle sign language. Their bony appearance, combined with body language and perhaps smell was likely instrumental then.
|
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 03:32:22
|
Veering the topic onto one wheel for a moment:
For those who are interested - in my recent scroll about The Gith races, Sage was kind enough to provide this link to a library which contains a great deal of lore about the Gith languages. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:27:25
|
It's interesting to note that Abyssal is a 3rd edition artifact; it didn't exist in 2e. Page 55 of Faces of Evil: the Fiends states that the Tanar'ri have no unifying tongue. They didn't need one, because Tanar'ri are all (well, mostly all) telepathic.
It says their spoken tongues are all mutually incomprehensible. I imagine that were any single language introduced, it would rapidly devolve into separate dialects. One language is impossible to mandate, because demons will not be mandated to, and are only "ruled" by brute force. They rebel against any organizing principle such as language. You might see a single tongue enforced by edict of a demon lord on one, or possibly adjoining layers of the Abyss, but beyond the scope of that lord's power to command, adherence to any linguistic standard would deteriorate, or be actively undermined.
Faces of Evil goes on to say that perhaps the reason Tanar'ri are so angry all the time is that they never fully understand the speech of another demon, nor are ever fully understood. It concludes: "That may also explain why the tanar'ri often resort to methods of communication that can't be misconstrued -- like torture." |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 04:46:55
|
With respect to Slaadi, Slaadi speak Slaad. In 2e they had some telepathy, like the tanar'ri, but in 3e they don't -- except for Death Slaadi. But in 2e as well as in 3e, Slaadi had/have their own language.
Now, Slaadi are just as chaotic, if not more so, than demons. So why should they have a single unifying tongue and not a mish-mash of incomprehensible dialects like the tanar'ri? Why doesn't some similar "Tower of Babel" effect hold sway?
My guess is that the epic magic that locked them into their froggy form similarly imposes upon them a single tongue. Before the Spawning Stone was created, there was no single Slaad tongue. But the Stone encodes the language into them like DNA.
By the way, I think it is important to distinguish between the Slaadi and the Batrachi, aka the Neraph (Neraphs? Neraphi?). Batrachi and Slaadi are not the same things. Slaadi are exemplars from the Great Wheel plane of Limbo. Ed Greenwood told us over in his thread that Slaadi immigrated to the FR Cosmology from Greyhawk's Great Wheel through planar rifts and/or portals, and set up shop in the FR plane called the Supreme Throne. That is, it is currently called the Supreme Throne. The name was changed circa 1370-1372 DR when Cyric fled the Fugue Plane and took up residence there. He renamed it in megalomaniacal fashion as the seat of his power, his "Supreme Throne." Prior to that, the plane was apparently called "Limbo" according to a couple of sources (I would have to double check, but I think it mentions this in the Grand History, and also the Firebringer adventure in Dragon/Dungeon Magazine way back when.) I am guessing that it was called "Limbo" either because the Slaadi were not very creative and didn't bother to think up a new name. Or maybe they hadn't even realized that they had fallen into a new plane. Or perhaps the Slaad language, which is "encoded" into them by the Spawning Stone, will not let them call their home plane anything other than "Limbo." So "Limbo" is both the name of a plane in the Great Wheel cosmology, and also the former name of the Supreme Throne in the FR cosmology. And according to Ed Greenwood, there are apparently links/planar rifts between Limbo of the Great Wheel and the Supreme Throne plane of Toril's cosmology.
Batrachi, on the other hand, were a mortal creator race that fled to the planes following the Tearfall cataclysm, and subsequent 7-year Fimbulwinter that wiped out most of their race when Asgorath dumped a comet/ice-moon on their heads following their war with the Titans.
The Grand History of the Realms p.5 relates a passage narrated by Bazim-Gorag, the Firebringer, which includes this quote: "When the seven-turn winter later blanketed our lands with ice, I retreated with many of my kind to the otherworldly realm of Limbo, where we established a kingdom that your sages call the Supreme Throne. It was there that our race was once again transformed by Ramenos to serve his divine purpose. Many of your ignorant kind mistakenly confuse my people with the slaad, who make their home on the same plane. In fact, I am a batrachi lordfar more powerful
than any common fiend."
Now my supposition is that the Neraph (Neraphs, Neraphi?), the race presented in the Planar Handbook, are the same as this offshoot of the Batrachi creator race. The neraphs are confused with slaadi, but are not the same thing. Presumably they have powerful lords (or lord, I only know of Bazim-Gorag for sure). My guess is that Bazim-Gorag may have gained his power as a seraph/chosen/proxy of Ramenos, who may have imbued him with a divine rank. I am guessing that makes Bazim-Gorag at least a divine rank 1 level deity, or basically a demi-god or exarch in 4e parlance. Many people/sages/scholars believe him to be a Slaad lord, but as he himself says, he is something else entirely, and believes himself to be more powerful than the Slaadi paragons.
Neraphs, then, probably speak a bastardized form of the Batrachi language that would have certainly changed over the last 33,000 years, borrowing loanwords from the slaadi tongue and other planar peoples, so as to be completely unrecognizable to a speaker of ancient Batrachi. Or, they may have just adopted the Slaad tongue.
As for Ramenos, I am not sure what his origins are exactly. He might actually have started out as an ascended Slaad. There is some speculation that he was a fragment of the World Serpent, which is possible, I guess, but Ramenos had a presence over in the Greyhawk cosmology. So that would seem to point to an interloper deity.
But then again, he is very old, at least 35,000 years old. No reason he couldn't have spawned as a fragment of the World Serpent and then expanded his divinity outwards from the FR cosmology, over to the Great Wheel.
If he did fragment off of the World Serpent, I imagine him originally being an aspect of the WS that appealed to the aquatic offshoots of the Sarrukh, or as a splinter group of the pre-batrachi, octopoid versions of the aquatic creator race that were wooed away from worship of the Great School pantheon that was venerated by the octopoid, sea-dwelling precursors of the Batrachi. During that period I see him as a colossal eel. Or maybe a sea-serpent. Some sinuous shape that properly reflected an aquatic version of the World Serpent. Maybe even a morkoth.
Later on, as Ramenos' worship spread and civil war erupted among the two factions of octopoids (those who worshiped the Great School vs. the Ramenites), Ramenos traveled to the planar home of the Great School, the Fated Depths, and there, in a fit of jealous rage, he harrowed the Great School pantheon. Chasing them down, he swallowed each god in turn, devouring them ravenously in great gulps, like the Midgard Serpent at Ragnarok, leaving the Fated Depths an empty, fetid, stagnant plane, fit only for Blibdoolpoolp, Sekolah, the Krakentua and a few scattered refugees to make their homes.
Ramenos then used that power to transform himself and his people. Like tadpoles, they metamorphosized into the amphibious, frog-shaped Batrachi. Gifted with spines and legs and lungs, they now had the power to rise above the waves, walk upon land and conquer the One Land in the name of their dark deity, Ramenos.
After their empire rose and fell, Ramenos again transformed the Batrachi into the Neraph, adapting them to a form more suitable to their new planar home of Limbo -- as the Supreme Throne was called by its other inhabitants at the time, the Slaadi. Following that, I assume that Ramenos, who is also a god of torpor, slipped into a deep sleep, hibernating for a time, perhaps even up to the present day. At least, Ramenos certainly seems to be sleeping at the current time. Not sure if there have been intervening periods of wakefulness.
Of course, you know what they say: "That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die." Perhaps it is just about time for Ramenos to wake from his deep slumber. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 07:13:17
|
| My recent reading of Planes of Law describes Mechanus as having the unique property of allowing all sentient creatures to understand each other, regardless of the specific languages they may use. This property does not extend beyond the plane nor allow the natives of Mechanus to understand foreign languages when they travel elsewhere. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 08:03:14
|
According to the Planescape Box Set, modrons speak their own precise mathematical language.
I wonder if it is called "Modem"? |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 09:04:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
According to the Planescape Box Set, modrons speak their own precise mathematical language.
I wonder if it is called "Modem"?
They've a series of mathematically-applicable hand signals and gestures too... which they commonly call sine-language.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Planescape Questions & Musings
