| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| GazzaM |
Posted - 27 Sep 2010 : 23:47:35
Does anyone have any information on the previous Zulkirs of Thay, those Zulkirs before 1347 ? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 13:58:23
Well, there's always bribery. Liches must need slaves, gold, magic items, spells, books, information, influence.
And then there's always non-peaceful methods. It's probably possible to dominate a lich somehow (or his phylactery) ... assuming one is capable (ahem, Zulkir), suitably prepared, protected by disposable underlings, and careful to pick the right lich. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 13:21:14
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Wizards as a lot are supposed to be inspired by some love for the art; Zulkirs are eminently superb wizards; and liches are wizards who've invented near-immortality to provision their inhuman command of ever more potent and subtle magical art. Szass chatted up Larloch when he wanted to gain knowledge generally unavailable within the confines of Thay.
Other than Larloch, I can't think of no other lich the zulkirs could 'talk' to peacefully. Certainly not Aumvor, unless they want to meet their swift death. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 09:18:13
A career of ambitious magic as a Red, culminating in the pinnacle of Zulkirdom. I suppose all the enemies (opponents and underlings), constant treachery, endless political quibbling, assassination attempts, and general half-insane paranoia would eventually begin to lose their delightful charm and become tedious chores which consume valuable time better spent beating slaves and magical library/lab work. A little time set aside for leisurely lich dating can lead to all sorts of enlightening new discoveries vastly beyond the comprehension of the peons. Wizards as a lot are supposed to be inspired by some love for the art; Zulkirs are eminently superb wizards; and liches are wizards who've invented near-immortality to provision their inhuman command of ever more potent and subtle magical art. Szass chatted up Larloch when he wanted to gain knowledge generally unavailable within the confines of Thay.
Zulkir kits/classes can access substantially more power than normal Reds (who can themselves access certain magical powers unavailable to plain vanilla wizards). I wonder if this is the consequence of some sort of secret power ritual, access to a magical font provided by some (enslaved) being, Zulkirs being the focus for a kind of "great circle" arrangement involving all the Reds within the school, or even some sort of power flow resembling divine belief from the lesser ranks. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 17:20:46
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Probably. At least the few who escaped poison, disintegration, and permanent banishing or imprisonment. It's not impossible that now and then a mighty Zulkir gets mobbed down by his lowly slaves ... not like Reds would ever admit such a possibility to the public (or to each other).
I was thinking more along the lines of a Zulkir actually "abandoning the kit", stepping down (one way or another), and moving on. Start walking the planes, dabble in even higher forms of magic, talk to liches, that kinda stuff.
Somehow I find that funny. Talking to liches? Hmm, what a motivating factor to retire.
Anyway, there's no zulkir who "actually" abandoned his throne or was reported to have done so. Szass Tam might be the first. That is, if he manages to become a god. What use is a mere realm to him if he will have an entire plane or world of his own?! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 15:44:55
Probably. At least the few who escaped poison, disintegration, and permanent banishing or imprisonment. It's not impossible that now and then a mighty Zulkir gets mobbed down by his lowly slaves ... not like Reds would ever admit such a possibility to the public (or to each other).
I was thinking more along the lines of a Zulkir actually "abandoning the kit", stepping down (one way or another), and moving on. Start walking the planes, dabble in even higher forms of magic, talk to liches, that kinda stuff. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 15:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Can a Zulkir retire?
Of course. I bet that's what some in the First and Second Zulkirate just did when they suddenly vanished without a trace. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 14:34:14
Can a Zulkir retire? Become sort of the Thayan archwizard equivalent of an hierophant druid? (Exciting possibilities...) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 13:41:07
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Mythrell'aa's "death" wasn't properly explained. Hardly confirmed. Perhaps just as mysterious as everything else about her. Of course, Illusion = Deception ...
The 'Alliance' needed someone who had more brains and knew Tam better. Dmitra came in handy. How else could she actively join the zulkirs' dance than be a zulkir herself?! Mythrella simply happened to be in the way; and so her 'death' was a necessity. I don't think she's dead, though. She could have been caged in some faraway dungeon only Szass Tam knew of. Or, having grown weary of her fellow zulkirs' endless feud, fled to some distant land where she planned to begin a new life. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 28 Nov 2010 : 09:49:48
I am devising a methodical L-BOT golem to automate this arduous link-chasing collection chore. What quantity of lore it might provide is yet a mystery (and had better be limited to less than 4500GB, lol).
Sorting through this phenomenally ungodly mountain is another matter entirely. "Pagerank" styled parsing is somewhat beyond both my patience and ability to craft (and could always be done later, anyhow); I suppose concentrating on the writings of notable personages is the best start, and just chunking through it manually will have to suffice. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 23:46:39
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I've never heard of REALMS-L ... this link?
What is it?
Is there any way to download all of it in a single package, rather than clicking through a thousand htmls?
The REALMS-L was largely the only place for Realms-discussion in the ancient days of bulletin-boards and archaic internet in the late 90's and early 00's. Once forum messaging systems and online chat rooms gained prominence, the Mailing Lists largely fell by the way-side.
They're still useful, however, especially since they contain a lot of purposeful info from both designers and members. I've tried to save as much as I could from Ed, Steven, Eric, Krash, Tom Costa, and a few others. But it's taken me literally years [and bouts of SageTime] to compose that file. It's nowhere near complete though, since my collection of material has been rather haphazard and non-liner.
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| Thauramarth |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 20:39:37
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I've never heard of REALMS-L ... this link?
What is it?
Is there any way to download all of it in a single package, rather than clicking through a thousand htmls?
Yeah, this.
Answers: Mailing list, and no, I'm afraid none.
If I remember correctly, it was scribe Sleyvas (who's been active on Candlekeep again, recently), who wrote up unofficial lore for giving the schools of effect (in 2E parlance) a place in the Thayvian power structure; the heads of the schools were not called Zulkirs (and were not equals of them), but were called Aulkirs. I know he wrote it up ages ago (in internet terms) - I once had a copy of it, and integrated it in my general file on Thay, but I have since misplaced the original (though I still have the info in my Thay file). |
| Zireael |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 18:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I've never heard of REALMS-L ... this link?
What is it?
Is there any way to download all of it in a single package, rather than clicking through a thousand htmls?
Yeah, this.
Answers: Mailing list, and no, I'm afraid none. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 11:34:56
I've never heard of REALMS-L ... this link?
What is it?
Is there any way to download all of it in a single package, rather than clicking through a thousand htmls? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 09:49:34
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Look for homebrew Thay on REALMS-L mailing list. I recall seeing one such idea there, I even have it saved to my HDD.
Is this for me or Arik? If 'tis for me, sorry, I don't game. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 09:30:02
EDIT: @ Arik
Look for homebrew Thay on REALMS-L mailing list. I recall seeing one such idea there, I even have it saved to my HDD.
EDIT: Gremlins galore. I tried to post these two lines above thrice and missed a post that got sent in the meantime. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 09:23:57
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Lallara Mediocros, well, the name really says it all. She's so much of an unassuming sycophantic mediator that I'd actually be dumbfounded if she ever dared to defy the collective will of the other Zulkirs with a dangerous new idea. "Always on the defensive" is not a bad personality trait for an Abjurer ... but she is supposed to be a powerful Zulkir of Thay; generally not a position available to meek, unambitious, and hesitant people.
I love her.  A bi*** always makes the Zulkirate merrier! 
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
A Zulkir of Fire Magic (followed by Zulkirs of Air, Earth, Water, Shadow, Wild, etc) would be logical. Such positions didn't exist within the traditional structure, but surely some qualified people would attempt to install themselves during these troubling times in Thay. Maybe even a Psionicist or three. The more Zulkirs the merrier, red is a delicious colour which evokes passion and courage (and serves as a danger signal everywhere throughout nature).
Just my thoughts.
All of them are already the province of Evocation. So there's no need. Except Zulkir of Shadow. Shadow being the ninth school/sub-school of magic would help them fortify their nation further, and enable them to stunt any siege should Shade and Sembia be so crazy as to attack them. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 06:17:20
Nevron was just a tank packing tons of firepower ... aside from being an arrogant hothead (as one would expect a Zulkir to be) he just wasn't much of a personality at all. He's pretty much interchangeable with any other powergamer who plays this class. I do like his manly cool name, though.
I'd like to see a more decently condescending bastard as Zulkir of Invocation ... I mean, c'mon, the penultimately superior blaster! (Second only to, um, Talos.) He certainly wouldn't view his peers as competent, he'd expect to be able to liquify them all anytime it really matters, and he'd treat them accordingly. Not to say he'd be a reckless idiot, just that he'd view the others as "lesser" wizards who employ "weak" magics. Fire, Thunder, Force, Disintegration ... other magic is just a waste of time, right?
The disgustingly corpulent Kul is obnoxiously interactive, but seems to have evolved into a gluttonous wheezing toad instead of into a fearsomely capable Zulkir of Transmutation (incidentally, my personal vote for "Most Awesome Mage Specialty"). It's understandable that the other characters (Zulkirs) wouldn't look past Kul's superficial defects - he's got so many, and he's so contemptible that they'd hardly even want to look that far - but it would be nice to see Kul actually demonstrate some ruthlessly potent Zulkir competence instead of constantly serving as a rotundly decadent/comedic prop. He does sort of moderate (and lead) the Zulkir band through his massively intimidating blubbery presence and booming voice (when his mouth isn't full) ... but I just feel he needs to do more to be really interesting. Even the other characters - friends and foes alike - constantly side-chatter to remind each other that Zulkir Kul should not be underestimated. Really? How long will they keep up that attitude without a useful demonstration?
Lallara Mediocros, well, the name really says it all. She's so much of an unassuming sycophantic mediator that I'd actually be dumbfounded if she ever dared to defy the collective will of the other Zulkirs with a dangerous new idea. "Always on the defensive" is not a bad personality trait for an Abjurer ... but she is supposed to be a powerful Zulkir of Thay; generally not a position available to meek, unambitious, and hesitant people.
Mythrell'aa's "death" wasn't properly explained. Hardly confirmed. Perhaps just as mysterious as everything else about her. Of course, Illusion = Deception ...
I suspect Mythrell'aa was removed from the setting to prevent confusion with Mythal, Mythallar, mithril, Mystra, etc (which would be a shame, since I feel a plausible explanation worked into the story would've been more interesting than another new face).
A Zulkir of Fire Magic (followed by Zulkirs of Air, Earth, Water, Shadow, Wild, etc) would be logical. Such positions didn't exist within the traditional structure, but surely some qualified people would attempt to install themselves during these troubling times in Thay. Maybe even a Psionicist or three. The more Zulkirs the merrier, red is a delicious colour which evokes passion and courage (and serves as a danger signal everywhere throughout nature).
Just my thoughts. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 05:21:08
Hmm, I thought she's the least powerful among the zulkirs. Richard didn't even give her a 'proper death,' just mentioned it in passing. In The Simbul's Gift, she didn't strike me as a great character, either. Alassra would have easily burnt her to ashes.
The ones I'd like to see come back are Lallara, Nevron, Lauzoril, and two from the First Zulkirate, especially that zulkir who used to appear like Thay's Overlord. I can't remember his name. And the search spell only led me to Chamber of Sages---I don't have the luxury of time to peruse all the 90+ pages. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 04:40:33
Mysterious Mythrell'aa(?), Zulkir of Illusion (?-1350DR). Would've been quite powerful back in the 1E days when Illusionists were the only unique magic-user class. At the time there just wasn't anything outstanding about Szass at all (when compared against the other Zulkirs) beyond the fact that he was a lich. In some respects that actually made Szass less powerful than his peers, at least in the long game. Things have changed, of course.
An accomplished (and probably very old) illusionist could've easily possessed powers unknown to the other Zulkirs ... faking death is a mere triviality. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 04:46:21
Since there's no such thing as 'utterly dead' in D&D, should one or two of the previous zulkirs reappear, either to challenge Szass Tam or undertake his bigger, more sensible schemes from a distant realm, who would you want it to be? |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 15:47:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lord of Bones
According to Spellbound, Nevron replaces Sabass as Zulkir of Conjuration. Sabass wasn't listed as a Zulkir in Dreams of the Red Wizards, which could imply he had a very short tenure, or just means he kept the truth of his position concealed from the wider populace and common lore (as Zulkirs are free to do).
My take has ever been (and the trouble is, at my age, I can't remember if I read it somewhere, or whether I made an executive decision here) that Sabass became zulkir after his predecessor bought it during the ToT. So he would not have been a zulkir at the time of Dreams of the Red Wizards, and would have been out of the job before Spellbound. |
| Quale |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 12:02:06
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
'Tis too light, almost orange, to be red. =)
orange? look here for the shades of imperial purple
I prefer the Imaskari tradition to just cause they liked the color of blood |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 08:46:38
I'd go for the latter, LoB. |
| Lord of Bones |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 08:27:28
According to Spellbound, Nevron replaces Sabass as Zulkir of Conjuration. Sabass wasn't listed as a Zulkir in Dreams of the Red Wizards, which could imply he had a very short tenure, or just means he kept the truth of his position concealed from the wider populace and common lore (as Zulkirs are free to do). |
| Dennis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 05:11:40
'Tis too light, almost orange, to be red. =) |
| Kno |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 13:23:58
Tyrian purple is red enough |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 12:03:22
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
What's the "Why do Red Wizards wear red?" thread that's mentioned in that other thread? I don't think I've seen it, but it sounds interesting and a cursory search of CK doesn't turn it up.
My memory seems to be failing me (q.v. father v. grandfather), but I think someone (might have been me, but senior moments rule right now) asked Ed the question, and I'm relatively sure the answer was "because it's easier to disguise bloodstains" or something along those lines.
I wonder why not purple or amethyst, considering they came from Imaskar, where most wizards wore amethyst robes? Hmm, come to think of it, 'Red Wizards' still sounds cooler than 'Purple Wizards,' while 'Amethyst Wizards' has an air of femininity (which might not be appropriate for an elite class that's predominantly male).
|
| Lord of Bones |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 19:44:25
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
As far as I can remember, there was no name mentioned, just that Lauzoril's predecessor is his wife's grandfather, whom he killed.
That must have earned him some nights on the couch!
Not just some nights, but some long nights, in fact.
Pshaw. The Zulkir of Enchantment spends no nights on the couch, unless he wills it! He can no doubt charm his way into his wife's good graces after killing her father/grandfather/long lost cousin. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 16:34:47
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
What's the "Why do Red Wizards wear red?" thread that's mentioned in that other thread? I don't think I've seen it, but it sounds interesting and a cursory search of CK doesn't turn it up.
My memory seems to be failing me (q.v. father v. grandfather), but I think someone (might have been me, but senior moments rule right now) asked Ed the question, and I'm relatively sure the answer was "because it's easier to disguise bloodstains" or something along those lines.
HA! Yeah, IIRC, it was a largely arbitrary choice on his part. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 01 Oct 2010 : 14:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
What's the "Why do Red Wizards wear red?" thread that's mentioned in that other thread? I don't think I've seen it, but it sounds interesting and a cursory search of CK doesn't turn it up.
My memory seems to be failing me (q.v. father v. grandfather), but I think someone (might have been me, but senior moments rule right now) asked Ed the question, and I'm relatively sure the answer was "because it's easier to disguise bloodstains" or something along those lines. |
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