| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RealMarkP |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 14:39:04
I'm running a campaign where the Trio Nefarious are re-Summoned. I was wondering if anyone know what their stats are. I tried to search the CandleKeep and Gleemax forums but nothing came up. Any help is welcome :) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 00:25:47
Not necessarily. Remember, they'd been fighting for three complete days, across much of the city, and that they had just finished another, even more brutal campaign the day before. It's described as a battle "primarily of magic," which means spells were flying thick and fast. After three days with minimal time to rest, much of that magic was likely gone. The very fact that Khelben was drawing so heavily on the silver fire likely means he had already expended most or all of his spells, and any long term buffs (to use 3e crunch terms) would have worn off days before. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 22:25:44
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
The harness didn't tear Khelben in half. All it did was raise the mezzoloth's strength score to the point where he could tear someone in half. And remember that Khelben, though powerful magically, is no more immune to the "four wild horses" strategy as any other human.
But wizards are routinely magically protected from physical attacks. I would think it would take A LOT of raw physical force to bypass any defenses a mighty archmage like Khelben would have in place. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 20:58:15
The harness didn't tear Khelben in half. All it did was raise the mezzoloth's strength score to the point where he could tear someone in half. And remember that Khelben, though powerful magically, is no more immune to the "four wild horses" strategy as any other human. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 03 Feb 2010 : 11:31:48
quote:
[i
On the other hand, if it means instead (as I lean towards) a complex, unique, but still falls-under-the-normal-rules magical item like the Baneblades, the Elfblades, or Coronal Ynoleth's Bracer, then it's entirely possible that it was destroyed.
Ummm I would think that any item that allows for the tearing in half of a Chosen one to fit the former true artifact category but I could be wrong.... |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 23:38:59
I think that's a great idea.  |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 13:23:05
Well, it depends on what is meant by the term "artifact." If we're talking a full-on artifact like the Crown of Horns or the Machine of Lum the Mad, you know, a Book of Artifacts type artifact, then no, the explosion almost certainly didn't destroy it.
On the other hand, if it means instead (as I lean towards) a complex, unique, but still falls-under-the-normal-rules magical item like the Baneblades, the Elfblades, or Coronal Ynoleth's Bracer, then it's entirely possible that it was destroyed.
My personal feeling is that the Harness falls under the latter category (there's another great list of items like it at the start of the Hellgate Keep adventure), and was therefore likely destroyed. But we can always go ask Steven, since he was the one to create it. |
| Joran Nobleheart |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 02:50:07
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
That's a direct quote from the Fall of Myth Drannor supplement. It's also all we know about the mezzoloth Cvor the Whipmaster, or the Harness, or Alayris. But Fall of Myth Drannor is like that; there are more references to things never before or again seen thrown around than in most three other works combined. It's one of the things that makes it such a great sourcebook.
It really is a great book. But wouldn't the explosion that could do all of that likely destroy an aritfact, also? Or would it be easily able to survive such damage? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 02:26:42
That's a direct quote from the Fall of Myth Drannor supplement. It's also all we know about the mezzoloth Cvor the Whipmaster, or the Harness, or Alayris. But Fall of Myth Drannor is like that; there are more references to things never before or again seen thrown around than in most three other works combined. It's one of the things that makes it such a great sourcebook. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 01:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Right in everything except the fiend type. That wasn't one of the nycaloths, but rather one of their (many) mezzoloth henchmen. For what it's worth, the elven magical item was the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris. But you're right; once the war got going there was a lot of captured magic being used on both sides.
According to the Sage it was Colonel Cvor...
quote:
Trusting that his flaming form would be proof against any attacks, he was caught unawares by Colonel Cvor when it used a captured elven artifact (the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris) to grow to a giant's size and seize the flaming mage by hand and foot. More swiftly than the reactions of either Chosen, Cvor pulled the Nameless Chosen nearly in half by sheer strength and brutality! The explosion of magical power and fire utterly consumed Cvor and over 200 nearby mezzoloths, but not the one who wielded it. As the fireball subsided, the Nameless One lay dying, the silver fire desperately draining away out of his laid-open torso. While Elminster later reported that Mystra herself preserved his life as he lay wounded, at least three sources (two half-elven histories and one elven song) suggest that another power such as Sehanine saved him in return for his aiding her People.
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| jordanz |
Posted - 02 Feb 2010 : 01:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Right in everything except the fiend type. That wasn't one of the nycaloths, but rather one of their (many) mezzoloth henchmen. For what it's worth, the elven magical item was the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris. But you're right; once the war got going there was a lot of captured magic being used on both sides.
Thanks, is there any information of the Harness' current whereabouts/or origin?
Also is there any info on the Giant-Slayer Alayris himself? |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 14:11:22
Right in everything except the fiend type. That wasn't one of the nycaloths, but rather one of their (many) mezzoloth henchmen. For what it's worth, the elven magical item was the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris. But you're right; once the war got going there was a lot of captured magic being used on both sides. |
| jordanz |
Posted - 01 Feb 2010 : 11:52:47
quote:
Now if I recall correctly, the trio were ostensibly working for Malkazid the fallen solar, but given their race's nature, there's bound to be a group of higher 'loths involved somewhere (whether the trio or even Malkazid might be aware). As a result, they might carry objects or be infused with magic above and beyond what might be typical of their kind, if their ultimate masters on the Waste or Gehenna saw a need for it.
Ummm, I recall reading that one of the 3 Nycaloths had an extremely powerful elven artifact -a belt I believe- that enabled the wearer to grow to titanic heights. The Nycaloth was able to use this belt to physically tear Khelben Blackstaff in half. I believe the resultant explosion destroyed the Nycaloth and some 500 fiends... I have no clue whatever became of the belt.... |
| Penknight |
Posted - 21 Jan 2010 : 00:18:17
Ok, that's what I was thinking of, the Monster Manual III. Thank you so much, Shemmy! |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 20 Jan 2010 : 22:27:02
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Aren't nycaloths in a 3E Monster Manual?
No. The nycaloths were detailed in the 3e Manual of the Planes.
They also show up in revised form in the 3.x MM3, including a beefed up, advanced nycaloth that might serve as a starting point for statting the trio up.
Additionally in agreement with what others have said, while nycaloths are powerful, they're nothing an archmage in direct combat should have too much to worry about. So let's look at the role that nycaloths play within the 'loth heirarchy. They typically are never made fully privy to the reasons and ends of what they're doing, instead they act as the hands of the next two tiers of greater 'loths, the arcanaloths and ultroloths, including the advanced members of their kind (such as Helekanalaith of the Tower Arcane) or unique beings such as the Oinoloth, etc.
Now if I recall correctly, the trio were ostensibly working for Malkazid the fallen solar, but given their race's nature, there's bound to be a group of higher 'loths involved somewhere (whether the trio or even Malkazid might be aware). As a result, they might carry objects or be infused with magic above and beyond what might be typical of their kind, if their ultimate masters on the Waste or Gehenna saw a need for it. |
| Penknight |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 05:35:33
Thank you both, gentlemen. I'll see if I can find a copy now so I can look them over. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 04:12:59
well if they were supposed to be the most powerful of their kind, then add 5 to each of their stats, or add a chosen template to them. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 04:08:28
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
Aren't nycaloths in a 3E Monster Manual?
No. The nycaloths were detailed in the 3e Manual of the Planes.
|
| Penknight |
Posted - 19 Jan 2010 : 04:00:21
Aren't nycaloths in a 3E Monster Manual? And I'd love to see a statting out of the Trio Nefarious also, to kind of see what it would take to pull an army like that together. |
| Eremite |
Posted - 18 Jan 2010 : 06:15:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Hit Dice: 12+36 (avg- 84HP, max- 132HP)[unquote]
Actually the average is 90 hit points (average of a d8 is 4.5 rather than 4) which I only mention because...
quote:
I know that my own wizard/illusionist that I played for years would MUCH rather face a Type VI Demon (Balor) in 1st Edition any day of the week than meet one of these guys in battle.
IMO, the type VI was a masterpiece of bad design. It had average hit points of only 44 and maximum hit points of 72. Compare that to the (corrected) hit points of the nycadaemon.
Also, the nycadaemon benefitted from Gary's decision to give Str damage bonuses to his later creations. A balor did, IIRC, 1d12+1 damage with its sword; a nycadaemon did weapon type (which never got adjusted for size, officially, in 1E) plus 8 or 10 for Str (I can't recall which). That was a rather large difference!
So, yes, I agree that if I was a player I would much rather my character face a type VI than a nycadaemon any day!
[quote]In fact, it was easier to subdue the Demon Yeenoghu or the relatively powerful Baphomet than a Nycodaemon.
Gary definitely started an arm's race with his later works. MMII monsters were generally more powerful that MMI monsters, just as Unearthed Arcana also provided a power boost for PCs (and NPCs).
Anyway, I love the ideas that The Hooded One posted to this thread. For me the Trio Nefarious are greater nycadaemons: in 3.5E terms that would involve class levels, advanced hit dice and appropriately chosen magic items.
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 05:02:22
My thoughts exactly. Aulmpiter was scary enough... I'm just glad they took the fourth out themselves. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 04:12:46
Gremlins again. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 04:12:14
I guess the 'smart' one wasn't that 'smart' after all. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 01:04:50
Agreed.
And I'm almost afraid to ask what Sage Schend's take on the Trio would be.
Almost.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Jan 2010 : 00:04:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I recall overhearing an informal chat in one of the lounges at GenCon, involving Ed and several of the company designers of the time, explaining something about the Trio to a licensee (computer game designer?).
What was said boiled down to this:
The Trio Nefarious were actually FOUR nycaloths who had acquired ancient magic (devised by someone else) that allowed them to "take over" the bodies of other nycaloths for short periods, putting the minds in those bodies into comas. So they could use a borrowed body to fight or do some other dangerous deed, and then discard it for another or for a return to their own. The magic that enabled them to do this also protected their minds from some hostile mind-affecting magics (charms, illusions, and attempts to influence or control), enabling them to withstand some attacks better than a "normal" nycaloth. The three active members of the Trio had overcome the fourth, who was the smartest, leaving the fourth as a comatose body they could all flee into, or take over permanently, if need be.
All three of them had made some sort of blood pact enforcing their loyalty to each other, and they spent much of their time acquiring all sorts of magic items, so as to be walking arsenals of magic with ready access to several hidden caches of magic, so they could take on most archmages and other nycaloths and expect to prevail.
Aside from this cunning and magical augmentation, they were no different than other nycaloths, but were thought by some human and elven survivors of encounters with them to be a more powerful sort or form of nycaloth (hence the "greater" sobriquet).
I'm not sure if this is canon, or was ever put into print anywhere. Ed mainly listened rather than talking (although he never disagreed or "corrected" any of this), and Steven Schend wasn't there, so this may not be "official" Realmslore . . . but I regard it as so.
love,
THO
Canon or no, that's some really good stuff!  |
| RealMarkP |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 19:09:05
THO, thanks for the back story. It might actually come in handy. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 18:00:18
Well, it was my thought that these fellas were from 1st Edition:
AC: -4
Hit Dice: 12+36 (avg- 84HP, max- 132HP)
Magic Resistance: 100% (variable depending on caster and spell level)
Lots of Spell powers
Then I imagined that they were perhaps holders of rather serious magical items as well, or even had the ability to perform some sort of Circle Magic. Nycodaemons/Nycoloths were likely to only use the most powerful magical items, or even minor artifacts.
While in later editions of D&D these guys weren't as powerful perhaps; in 1st Edition they are actually considerably powerful...more than most Dragons had hope of being.
So if you extrapolate their power in relation to other creatures (like dragons) that suddenly gained vast power in later editions, they might even rate as nearly as powerful as a Hero-Deity or some such.
Nycodaemon (not Nycoloth) is what they were first called; and in their description it says of them: "The race of Nycodaemons are among the most powerful of the creatures native to the Middle Lower Planes...Nycodaemons are avoided by all lesser creatures - Night Hags, mezzodaemons, lesser and greater devils, and most demons..."
That says a lot to me about how powerful they are. I know that my own wizard/illusionist that I played for years would MUCH rather face a Type VI Demon (Balor) in 1st Edition any day of the week than meet one of these guys in battle. In fact, it was easier to subdue the Demon Yeenoghu or the relatively powerful Baphomet than a Nycodaemon. Against all three I was equally prepared and knowledgeable of their abilities, but the Nycodaemon gave me a much greater fight than the other two...and he wasn't even a truly powerful individual at that.
That is just my take on them at least.
EDIT: Well, THO got to it before me! LOL |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 17:56:11
I recall overhearing an informal chat in one of the lounges at GenCon, involving Ed and several of the company designers of the time, explaining something about the Trio to a licensee (computer game designer?).
What was said boiled down to this:
The Trio Nefarious were actually FOUR nycaloths who had acquired ancient magic (devised by someone else) that allowed them to "take over" the bodies of other nycaloths for short periods, putting the minds in those bodies into comas. So they could use a borrowed body to fight or do some other dangerous deed, and then discard it for another or for a return to their own. The magic that enabled them to do this also protected their minds from some hostile mind-affecting magics (charms, illusions, and attempts to influence or control), enabling them to withstand some attacks better than a "normal" nycaloth. The three active members of the Trio had overcome the fourth, who was the smartest, leaving the fourth as a comatose body they could all flee into, or take over permanently, if need be.
All three of them had made some sort of blood pact enforcing their loyalty to each other, and they spent much of their time acquiring all sorts of magic items, so as to be walking arsenals of magic with ready access to several hidden caches of magic, so they could take on most archmages and other nycaloths and expect to prevail.
Aside from this cunning and magical augmentation, they were no different than other nycaloths, but were thought by some human and elven survivors of encounters with them to be a more powerful sort or form of nycaloth (hence the "greater" sobriquet).
I'm not sure if this is canon, or was ever put into print anywhere. Ed mainly listened rather than talking (although he never disagreed or "corrected" any of this), and Steven Schend wasn't there, so this may not be "official" Realmslore . . . but I regard it as so.
love,
THO |
| RealMarkP |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 17:36:25
I read somewhere that the three were roughly CR20 each. One was a Fighter, one was a Cleric and the last was a Rogue. I don't mind slapping a few levels of their respective classes on them because they are fairly insignificant in the story line - really just a speed bump. Since there is no literature about their starts, do any of the books mention how they operated - specific tactics they used? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 15:12:25
I don't immediately recall them having any particularly specific stats. The Trio are just, basically, nycaloths. See Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, The Fall of Myth Drannor and Lost Empires of Faerūn.
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| Hoondatha |
Posted - 15 Jan 2010 : 15:03:00
It's never really explained, at least as far as I know. In Fall of Myth Drannor, the book that introduced them, they're described as "greater nycaloths," a type of fiend that, frankly, doesn't exist.
To be honest, this part has always bugged me a little about the Fall. Nycaloths are deadly, yes, and definitely smart enough to do what is said they did, but they're just not powerful enough to justify the ends the elves go to. Especially when you have multiple high mages, they could just pound the nycaloths into the ground, then track them to the outer planes and kill them again to make it permanent. It would not be that big of a deal; a nycaloth isn't really anything against your average archmage.
There are a couple of options, the most blatant is slapping a whole bunch of character levels on top of a base nycaloth. Another option is to actually make them ultroloths masquerading as nycaloths for their own purposes. There are others as well.
Finally, you might want to wander over to Steven Schend's scroll and ask, since he was the one who wrote the Fall of Myth Drannor module. He might have some thoughts. |
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