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Originally posted by The Hooded One

I recall overhearing an informal chat in one of the lounges at GenCon, involving Ed and several of the company designers of the time, explaining something about the Trio to a licensee (computer game designer?).
What was said boiled down to this:

The Trio Nefarious were actually FOUR nycaloths who had acquired ancient magic (devised by someone else) that allowed them to "take over" the bodies of other nycaloths for short periods, putting the minds in those bodies into comas. So they could use a borrowed body to fight or do some other dangerous deed, and then discard it for another or for a return to their own. The magic that enabled them to do this also protected their minds from some hostile mind-affecting magics (charms, illusions, and attempts to influence or control), enabling them to withstand some attacks better than a "normal" nycaloth. The three active members of the Trio had overcome the fourth, who was the smartest, leaving the fourth as a comatose body they could all flee into, or take over permanently, if need be.
All three of them had made some sort of blood pact enforcing their loyalty to each other, and they spent much of their time acquiring all sorts of magic items, so as to be walking arsenals of magic with ready access to several hidden caches of magic, so they could take on most archmages and other nycaloths and expect to prevail.
Aside from this cunning and magical augmentation, they were no different than other nycaloths, but were thought by some human and elven survivors of encounters with them to be a more powerful sort or form of nycaloth (hence the "greater" sobriquet).
I'm not sure if this is canon, or was ever put into print anywhere. Ed mainly listened rather than talking (although he never disagreed or "corrected" any of this), and Steven Schend wasn't there, so this may not be "official" Realmslore . . . but I regard it as so.
love,
THO

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Hit Dice: 12+36 (avg- 84HP, max- 132HP)[unquote]

Actually the average is 90 hit points (average of a d8 is 4.5 rather than 4) which I only mention because...

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I know that my own wizard/illusionist that I played for years would MUCH rather face a Type VI Demon (Balor) in 1st Edition any day of the week than meet one of these guys in battle.

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IMO, the type VI was a masterpiece of bad design. It had average hit points of only 44 and maximum hit points of 72. Compare that to the (corrected) hit points of the nycadaemon.

Also, the nycadaemon benefitted from Gary's decision to give Str damage bonuses to his later creations. A balor did, IIRC, 1d12+1 damage with its sword; a nycadaemon did weapon type (which never got adjusted for size, officially, in 1E) plus 8 or 10 for Str (I can't recall which). That was a rather large difference!

So, yes, I agree that if I was a player I would much rather my character face a type VI than a nycadaemon any day!

[quote]In fact, it was easier to subdue the Demon Yeenoghu or the relatively powerful Baphomet than a Nycodaemon.

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Originally posted by Penknight

Aren't nycaloths in a 3E Monster Manual?

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Penknight

Aren't nycaloths in a 3E Monster Manual?

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No. The nycaloths were detailed in the 3e Manual of the Planes.

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Now if I recall correctly, the trio were ostensibly working for Malkazid the fallen solar, but given their race's nature, there's bound to be a group of higher 'loths involved somewhere (whether the trio or even Malkazid might be aware). As a result, they might carry objects or be infused with magic above and beyond what might be typical of their kind, if their ultimate masters on the Waste or Gehenna saw a need for it.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Right in everything except the fiend type. That wasn't one of the nycaloths, but rather one of their (many) mezzoloth henchmen. For what it's worth, the elven magical item was the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris. But you're right; once the war got going there was a lot of captured magic being used on both sides.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Right in everything except the fiend type. That wasn't one of the nycaloths, but rather one of their (many) mezzoloth henchmen. For what it's worth, the elven magical item was the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris. But you're right; once the war got going there was a lot of captured magic being used on both sides.

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Trusting that his flaming form would be proof against any attacks, he was caught unawares by Colonel Cvor when it used a captured elven artifact (the Harness of the Giant-Slayer Alayris) to grow to a giant's size and seize the flaming mage by hand and foot. More swiftly than the reactions of either Chosen, Cvor pulled the Nameless Chosen nearly in half by sheer strength and brutality! The explosion of magical power and fire utterly consumed Cvor and over 200 nearby mezzoloths, but not the one who wielded it. As the fireball subsided, the Nameless One lay dying, the silver fire desperately draining away out of his laid-open torso. While Elminster later reported that Mystra herself preserved his life as he lay wounded, at least three sources (two half-elven histories and one elven song) suggest that another power such as Sehanine saved him in return for his aiding her People.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

That's a direct quote from the Fall of Myth Drannor supplement. It's also all we know about the mezzoloth Cvor the Whipmaster, or the Harness, or Alayris. But Fall of Myth Drannor is like that; there are more references to things never before or again seen thrown around than in most three other works combined. It's one of the things that makes it such a great sourcebook.

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[i
On the other hand, if it means instead (as I lean towards) a complex, unique, but still falls-under-the-normal-rules magical item like the Baneblades, the Elfblades, or Coronal Ynoleth's Bracer, then it's entirely possible that it was destroyed.

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

The harness didn't tear Khelben in half. All it did was raise the mezzoloth's strength score to the point where he could tear someone in half. And remember that Khelben, though powerful magically, is no more immune to the "four wild horses" strategy as any other human.

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