| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 21:24:51
How old is she?
Was she one of the first gods formed after the 'Light and Darkness' thing, or did she come around much later?  |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 03:03:06
Thanks for answering, Brian!
Maybe you could whip up some Yuir-lore for DDI! Rattle the cages, beat the bushes! I bet someone in your circle has fantastic ideas!  |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 02:39:19
No I don't have any exposure to secret lore ragarding the Yuir pantheon. I wish I did!
My experience from working on the old PDF of the Grand History is that most Realms fans dismiss any work they perceive as being homebrew (no matter how well done). Even when I told people that the timeline was 100% canon (and provided references to back it up) some still viewed the Grand History with skeptism. |
| monknwildcat |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 23:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
So Elves of Faerūn is moving away from canon eh? Not that it's a bad thing, just surprising.
I found this on a search for lore on the Yuir gods.
I wonder if Brian's comment reflects his newer exposure to unprinted lore about the Yuir, which would give him the perspective of homebrewing as "deviating from canon."
What say you, Brother James?  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 01:51:34
Lord Karsus/Dagniron has said he wants EoF to be 80% canon. As MT said, new fan-made lore does get added. And yes, 4E lore isn't going to be included. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 23:53:37
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
So Elves of Faerūn is moving away from canon eh? Not that it's a bad thing, just surprising.
It doesn't so much diverge from canon, as it does use canon facts to build 'new lore' - much like what we do here with the CK Compendium.
I will admit it surprised me as well when LK/Dagnirion decided to 'flesh out' the rest of the unamed Yuir Pantheon, but it is his call.
To be honest, I think it was 4e that did it. Since he is NOT changing any of the already-written articles to reflect the new lore about the Elves, he has diverged from canon (by sticking to 'old' canon). That sort of opened the door for further diviations.
My own material was color-coded so people would be able to tell what was non-canon, but LK has chosen not to include any of that in the final draft. Since WotC has no intentions of developing any new canon for 3e, I don't see this divergence being a problem, really.
Although I know some novels are being written with 'historical references' and 'flashbacks', which does cause problems retro-actively, but I suppose that can't be helped. The same happens to CK articles... you know, like when some of us choose to write about Maztica... 
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 09:17:30
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Point taken and very worthy of pondering.
I defaulted to Talfiric only because in Faiths & Pantheons it emphasizes that there were 4 major human proto-pantheons prior to the Dawn Cataclysm including Talfiric, Coramshite, Netherese and Jhaamdathan. At some point before Dale Reckoning the pantheons of the North and Western Heartlands had merged together and that is what I was referring to as the Talfiric pantheon. Also, in -425 DR, Illusk had been refounded by Netherese and I tend to think of it as being within the sphere of the Netherese pantheon.
What I was calling the Talfiric pantheon, was a reference to the pantheon of the North in general, which had blended over time from several prior cultures and which had a semi-unified pantheon by the time that Netheril fell. Cultural influences included the Talfiri, the Illuskans, and at some point a population of Finns or Laps that had emigrated from Earth bringing with them such gods as Kiputytto, Loviatar, and Mielikki. The Northern pantheon also adopted some fey gods including Lurue and Shiallia.
But you are correct that prior to -425 the Illuskans were a distinct race with their own unique cultural heritage centered around the city of Illusk, especially during its heyday circa -3000 DR to -2103 DR. Umberlee could just as easily and probably did originate with Illusk or Ruathym or one of the many islands settled by the Northmen.
Brian James posits in his (original) Chronology that the Illuskans themselves descended from a race called the Azuposi that lived in northern Anchorome. The race was either split up by the Sundering, leaving them spread out on both sides of the Trackless sea and scattered across many islands, or they simply migrated from Anchorome to the shores of Faerun. If true then Umberlee could have originated as far away as Anchorome.
I can think of other alternate origins for Umberlee as well. She could have been the daughter of Ulutiu or Panzuriel. Or she may have once been a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race, before they converted to Ramenos. She could have been a pirate queen of Ruathym ascended to godhood. Or perhaps she ascended from a mortal batrachi woman over 30,000 years ago.
Her origin story is lost to time, but whatever it is, I bet it is a good one.
Thanks Gray, you never cease to impress me. How do you keep it all in your head? Come to think of it, having Umberlee's worship originating in the Heartlands would give a good explanation for Valkur in the north, coming forth as a patron of sailors as the northmen take to the sea and coming up against the might of the goddess.
Looking over my own (very uncanon) Realms notes I have her as an Illuskan deity under the name of Umberlee and an old Turmish deity under the title of the Shark Queen. Many of her stories are tied to the Sahuagin. Valkur I have used as an old Chondathan deity of sailing and fishermen.
The Talfir, who I have tied closer to the tethen tribes ( never liked the presentation of this group in canon lore), are more of a land bound people with Eldath as the major divinity of Water and Selune as the patron of those few setting going out in larger bodies of water. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 03:45:18
So Elves of Faerūn is moving away from canon eh? Not that it's a bad thing, just surprising. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 03:31:55
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Herne was slain by Malar well before the Yuir tribes even existed, so I would recommend against his inclusion.
On some world, yes.
But not neccessarily on Toril.
There is quite a bit of evidence that 'Herne Worship' existed during human recorded history, which would mean that the 'Herne' slain in E:IoE was just an Avatar of the multi-spheric deity (a position which EC has also placed Malar in - he dindn't find out about Toril until much later - as did Lolth). Herne is a RW God, and was worshipped a mere 2000 years ago.
That first part of the novel COULDN'T have taken place on Toril, given that Lolth only found Realmspace much later in the book. It was just a random world she went looking for allies on.
Anyway, I don't think Dagnirion is going to use my bits about Umberlee being a Titan originally - he's going to use a Focalar from ToM instead (for the lost Yuir Sea-God). I also suggested Ulutiu, but he was frozen way too early on (according to GHotR). |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 20:09:50
Superb, Gray! I know from what Ed has told us over the years that Umberlee IS old and DID begin as a kraken (or at least squid-like, many-tentacled) deity.
love,
THO |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 19:56:52
Herne was slain by Malar well before the Yuir tribes even existed, so I would recommend against his inclusion.
Edit: Unless Malar was impersonating Herne which FR gods are want to do from time to time. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 19:16:22
Thanks for the answers, guys - its much as I thought.
Okay - we were trying to fill in some holes in the Elven Netbook project, and were trying to find possible 'lost gods' for the missing ones in the Yuir pantheon.
Umberlee wasn't one we thought of for that, but their is mention in 2e's Spellbound that the local Elves of the Yuir venerate an ancient 'Sea God' who dwelt off the coast, possibly gaurding some sort of "terrible Sea-Giant".
We had come up with that this "Sea-Giant" was in fact a primordial (Greek) Titan, who was summoned by the Elves of The Chondalwood to destroy Jhaamdath (which it did), but then was kept from destroying the rest of the Inner Sea region by a consortium of powers (Yuir, Seldarine, and certain other sea-deities). I had thought that this "terrible Sea-Giant" was the Titaness Umberlee, who has since gotten free now that her 'gaurdian' god has 'gone away' (likely absorbed, possibly by Umberlee herself, which may be how she ascended).
All homebrew, of course, except for the few bits where we tied it to canon history (Jhaamdath and that forgotten 'Sea-god').
Since we are also using Herne as a lost 'Yuir God', and he's directly connected to Celtic Mythology, and I have also concluded that the other Celtic Deities in FR were from the proto-Talfiric peoples, Gray's suppositions shoe-horn into all of this nicely.
I think many of the lost Yuir Totems were actually ancient Talfiric powers, some under aliases. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 17 Jul 2008 : 07:43:28
Point taken and very worthy of pondering.
I defaulted to Talfiric only because in Faiths & Pantheons it emphasizes that there were 4 major human proto-pantheons prior to the Dawn Cataclysm including Talfiric, Coramshite, Netherese and Jhaamdathan. At some point before Dale Reckoning the pantheons of the North and Western Heartlands had merged together and that is what I was referring to as the Talfiric pantheon. Also, in -425 DR, Illusk had been refounded by Netherese and I tend to think of it as being within the sphere of the Netherese pantheon.
What I was calling the Talfiric pantheon, was a reference to the pantheon of the North in general, which had blended over time from several prior cultures and which had a semi-unified pantheon by the time that Netheril fell. Cultural influences included the Talfiri, the Illuskans, and at some point a population of Finns or Laps that had emigrated from Earth bringing with them such gods as Kiputytto, Loviatar, and Mielikki. The Northern pantheon also adopted some fey gods including Lurue and Shiallia.
But you are correct that prior to -425 the Illuskans were a distinct race with their own unique cultural heritage centered around the city of Illusk, especially during its heyday circa -3000 DR to -2103 DR. Umberlee could just as easily and probably did originate with Illusk or Ruathym or one of the many islands settled by the Northmen.
Brian James posits in his (original) Chronology that the Illuskans themselves descended from a race called the Azuposi that lived in northern Anchorome. The race was either split up by the Sundering, leaving them spread out on both sides of the Trackless sea and scattered across many islands, or they simply migrated from Anchorome to the shores of Faerun. If true then Umberlee could have originated as far away as Anchorome.
I can think of other alternate origins for Umberlee as well. She could have been the daughter of Ulutiu or Panzuriel. Or she may have once been a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race, before they converted to Ramenos. She could have been a pirate queen of Ruathym ascended to godhood. Or perhaps she ascended from a mortal batrachi woman over 30,000 years ago.
Her origin story is lost to time, but whatever it is, I bet it is a good one.
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 08:39:28
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Best guess is that Umberlee was the sea god of the Talfiric pantheon, one of the major human proto-pantheons, centered in the Western Heartlands and along the Sword Coast North, back before human cultures blended into the greater Faerunian pantheon we see today.
There is no lore that I know of to tie her to the War of Light and Darkness, I don't know if she goes that far back. We don't know her origins. She may have a more recent origin. She was likely seen by her human adherents as the embodiment of the Sea of Swords--as harsh, cold and treacherous as the waters she presided over.
She is associated with the Gods of Fury, including Talos, Auril, and Malar. Talos does date back to the War of Light and Darkness, he is the original force of destruction that arose from that conflict. Auril and Malar, while not linked specifically to the War of Light and Darkness are still very old. Both Auril and Malar go back to at least -30,000 DR from before the time when Lolth rebelled against the Seldarine. I don't know if Umberlee is necessarily as old as her compatriots, but I imagine she has been around for at least as long as humans have sailed the Sea of Swords.
Her origin story is completely open, but I like to think she was once a particularly ancient and malefic kraken sorceress who lived along the Sword Coast, perhaps near a major river mouth (such as the Delimbiyr), where early Talfiric settlers fished and sailed. I see her exhorting tribesmen, villagers, and sailors into making sacrifices to her in exchange for safe passage and to abate her wrath. With the passage of time she captured the favor of Talos and eventually ascended to godhood herself. But that's just idle speculation on my part.
Great post. Just curious, why do you see her as originating among the Talfir and not the Illuskan? The Talfir culture was (if I remember correctly) located in the southern and interior parts of the Sword coast, nearer to the Dragon Coast. The gods of fury also has a large part of their worshippers in the north. Again, not criticising, just curious about your thoughts on the subject. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 16 Jul 2008 : 07:54:18
Best guess is that Umberlee was the sea god of the Talfiric pantheon, one of the major human proto-pantheons, centered in the Western Heartlands and along the Sword Coast North, back before human cultures blended into the greater Faerunian pantheon we see today.
There is no lore that I know of to tie her to the War of Light and Darkness, I don't know if she goes that far back. We don't know her origins. She may have a more recent origin. She was likely seen by her human adherents as the embodiment of the Sea of Swords--as harsh, cold and treacherous as the waters she presided over.
She is associated with the Gods of Fury, including Talos, Auril, and Malar. Talos does date back to the War of Light and Darkness, he is the original force of destruction that arose from that conflict. Auril and Malar, while not linked specifically to the War of Light and Darkness are still very old. Both Auril and Malar go back to at least -30,000 DR from before the time when Lolth rebelled against the Seldarine. I don't know if Umberlee is necessarily as old as her compatriots, but I imagine she has been around for at least as long as humans have sailed the Sea of Swords.
Her origin story is completely open, but I like to think she was once a particularly ancient and malefic kraken sorceress who lived along the Sword Coast, perhaps near a major river mouth (such as the Delimbiyr), where early Talfiric settlers fished and sailed. I see her exhorting tribesmen, villagers, and sailors into making sacrifices to her in exchange for safe passage and to abate her wrath. With the passage of time she captured the favor of Talos and eventually ascended to godhood herself. But that's just idle speculation on my part.
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| Hawkins |
Posted - 15 Jul 2008 : 23:09:51
Yeah, Faiths and Pantheons sheds no light on this... |
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