| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dragonhighlord |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 16:23:53
Hi to all, I'm a knew member so please be gentle.
I'm a fan of the FR novels and I read somewhere that Mystra (midnight) was dead! Is there some novel that details this rather sad event? 
Thanks. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:01:55
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, while I feel everything you say is correct Rinon, I still think that at least some of the FR gods will be rolled into the Core Gods (as aliases), and The Raven Queen - while far from perfect - is the closest fit to Shar.
Well, on that, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think Vecna (who is the god of undead, I checked) and/or Zehir are more similar to Shar than the Raven Queen. They are both evil and at least have some portfolios in common--Vecna's secrets, Zehir's darkness. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 21:59:08
Heh... Rich only said there could be Warforged if you want, not that there were.
Even though they're in the 4e MM. 
Anyhow, while I feel everything you say is correct Rinon, I still think that at least some of the FR gods will be rolled into the Core Gods (as aliases), and The Raven Queen - while far from perfect - is the closest fit to Shar.
Reading throught the new gods, I keep see similar stuff, like that a group of Core Gods live in the "Bright City"... it sounds eerily similar to Brightwater...
However, I could very easily say that Shar may be an Alias for Lolth (which several other people have already postulated)... except she lives in the DemonWeb Pits inside the Abyss, and I believe Shar's connection to the Shadowfel excludes that possibility for that reason.
4e Shar MUST live in the Shadowfel, and the only one I know of that lives there in Core is The Raven Queen.
Besides, she looks the part - and her sudden 'new' interest in Prophesy (The Dark Roll of Years) places her conveniently within reach of having 'Fate' in her portfolio. Note that they added all of that stuff about Shar and Prophesy in the GHotR and at the END of 3e?
I find anything new added to the GhotR suspect, and placed there as a 4e 'stepping stone'. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 21:56:49
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I am still waiting for their profound and logical explanation of HOW they are going to go about trimming down the gods (I still don't find their WHY convincing, but I think that I have given up on that). However, I learned to expect disappointment now.
-Uh...It was always like that...
-Look! A Warforged! Get after him!  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 18:20:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
True, but gods do have different portfolios from world to world (Tyr, for example), and that was well established in 2e's Planescape products. Normally the god has similar things in it's porfolio, but not neccessarily the same exact stuff. Even in 3e, we had two different sets of Egyptian gods (the Pharaonic, and the Mulhorandi).
Death is part of the Shadowfel, and the designers have already clearly stated thet the Shadowfel 'ate' the Negative plane in 4e, so it stands to reason Shar will have some 'Undead' stuff in her portfolio when the FRCG comes out.
Of course I'm just guessing here (like usual), but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shar turned out to be an alias for the the Raven Queen. All she need do is eat Kalimvor (a boring god, easy to get rid of) and Auril (Whom she may have been all along, as a way of 'horning in' on Umberlee and Talos's 'Storm' aspects).
Never underestimate the power of 4e to change stuff.
Your basing your presumption on the 3e Shar, who may be very different from the 4e version.
I'm not making any presumptions here. You suggested that Shar might really be a core deity. Maybe, but I think a supposition like that is a bit pointless, because with the logic you're using, we might as well wonder whether or not Sune is really Zehir, or Talos is really Pelor (after all, it's not impossible, right?). It's a "what-if" that could be true or untrue, but the evidence so far suggests it's untrue, and therefore I think it's irrelevant.
For that matter, I don't think Shar and the Raven Queen are even all that similar. The Raven Queen doesn't seem too interested in darkness. She is a goddess of fate and doesn't believe people should try to avoid their fate (which is eventually death). She's not evil, and if the old alignment system were being used, she'd probably be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral. IIRC, she's not the goddess of undeath (which is, after all, something of an avoidance of death, and I think Vecna has that portfolio). Shar seems to be much more similar to Zehir than the Raven Queen (and even then, there are still significant differences, such as Zehir's interest in snakes). |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 17:51:05
I am still waiting for their profound and logical explanation of HOW they are going to go about trimming down the gods (I still don't find their WHY convincing, but I think that I have given up on that). However, I learned to expect disappointment now. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 16:16:10
True, but gods do have different portfolios from world to world (Tyr, for example), and that was well established in 2e's Planescape products. Normally the god has similar things in it's porfolio, but not neccessarily the same exact stuff. Even in 3e, we had two different sets of Egyptian gods (the Pharaonic, and the Mulhorandi).
Death is part of the Shadowfel, and the designers have already clearly stated thet the Shadowfel 'ate' the Negative plane in 4e, so it stands to reason Shar will have some 'Undead' stuff in her portfolio when the FRCG comes out.
Of course I'm just guessing here (like usual), but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shar turned out to be an alias for the the Raven Queen. All she need do is eat Kelimvor (a boring god, easy to get rid of) and Auril (Whom she may have been all along, as a way of 'horning in' on Umberlee and Talos's 'Storm' aspects).
Never underestimate the power of 4e to change stuff.
Your basing your presumption on the 3e Shar, who may be very different from the 4e version. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:50:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And how do you know Shar isn't a Core God... going under another name?
Well, Shar definitely isn't the Raven Queen (unaligned goddess of death and winter), the core deity who seems to be one of the foremost residents--if not the foremost resident--of the core Shadowfell. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 02:08:26
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you try to say "size isn't everything?"
-No, I'm saying that the size of her statue does not necessarily notate importance. Especially with a bunch of shadowy deities, where the ability to not be seen and such is key.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because I know guys that say that...
-And, ironically enough, they all drive large SUVs. I wonder why...? |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 02:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar turning out to really be someone else not only makes sense, all things considered, but goes along with their overall plan of 'One rules to rule them all'. How different is FR going to be allowed to be, in a 4e world?
-If all of that is true, that that would seem to invalidate the commonly accepted creation myth.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You DARE to question me?! 
LOL
-Not only do I dare, but I do so on a somewhat regular basis. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:49:26
Most likely all three, since it gets confusing as to who Shar was really at war with or hated more.
If anything, Mystra turns out to be more of a 'cease fire' between the two primordial deities, and with her destruction (Shar 'broke' the treaty), the two Elder deities are at it again.
Either way, there is now some evidence that both Shar and Mystra (NOT selune... as of yet) exerted some influence outside of the Realms.
Now... if they push the War of Light and Darkness even further back, and made it even more primordial (pre-dating Realmspace itself), then Ao also gets a boost, because he now becomes "the one, True God".
Except... he did have a boss of his own at the end of that novel...
I wish Gray Richardson was still around... I loved having these kinds of discussions with him. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:37:59
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It only makes sense that both Shar and Mystra were multi-spheric deities, and that their 'eternal struggle' was an on-going war taking place across the planes.
You mean to say Shar and Selune, right? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:28:17
No, I already checked, and it was written before the 'secret meeting' first happened three years ago concerning 4e.
However, it does seem to have been the trend in 3e to keep building Shar up more and more as some sort of Uber-threat, and I believe Mr. Kemp played into this by simply taking it to the next level, providing hints that Shar may be even more then she seems.
I would hazard to guess he was just tossing out a cool visual and "WTF?" moment to readers, but I wouldn't be surprised if other designers took what he wrote and ran with it, considering their desire to unify everything in 4e.
In another thread (in this same sub-forum) I have shown how the Weave must have been even more powerful and all-invasive then we ever thought, and Brian james (who is privy to such things) has made a comment much to that effect.
It only makes sense that both Shar and Mystra were multi-spheric deities, and that their 'eternal struggle' was an on-going war taking place across the planes.
Now the Weave has fallen, magic everywhere has changed, the planes have re-aligned, and the Shadowfel has risen from the ashes of the old Shadow Weave.
I always felt FR was THE most important world in the universe, and if all of my postulating turns out to be true, then that was indeed so. That might even be a reason why they felt FR needed to be done first for 4e - it will explain a lot of what they plan on doing to the other settings. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
-Erevis Cale and his companions were in the temple. They only saw what they saw, however. And, of course, there is nothing to say that "big is better".
I think that's actually one I read. Something like the master of the temple was the first chosen of Mask or some such nonsense?
Anyhow, I don't think the novel was written with the 4E cosmology in mind, I can't imagine it was anyhow. At least if it's the one I read. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:32:06
Are you trying to say "size isn't everything?"
Because I know guys that say that...
Anyhow, I've already thought of at least a DOZEN reasons for that if the lore isn't changed, so its neither here nor there... I just thought it worth mentioning as a possibility.
Some of my theories range from 'the statue of the god of Shadow from the prime world the Temple is currently in is largest' to 'the statues sizes are determined by the god's power' (DR rating), and Shar would probably be the one of the most powerful - on most worlds, the shadow-god isn't nearly so powerful.
|
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:19:07
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
-Erevis Cale and his companions were in the temple. They only saw what they saw, however. And, of course, there is nothing to say that "big is better". |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:18:40
True, but like I said, I thought it was rather strange myself, given the descriptions of the Temple (which is a Temple to Shadow itself, from what I gather, and not Shar).
We have to wait until August to see just how much the FR Pantheon aligns with the Core one - I have a very bad feeling that EVERYTHING unique to FR will be 'bolied down' into its Core version - they have said as much, by mentioning some gods were really others posing as FR gods.
Shar turning out to really be someone else not only makes sense, all things considered, but goes along with their overall plan of 'One rules to rule them all'. How different is FR going to be allowed to be, in a 4e world?
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-That's a bit inflated, if I do say so myself...
You DARE to question me?!
LOL
I would agree that those figures are a bit off... it will probably be closer to 99% once the FRCG comes out.
If you want to hear some of my REALLY CRAZY theories, we should talk about my RW ones.... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That was in a canon novel!
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
-This does not mean this:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sad part is, 85% of my "Crazy Theories" usually pan out.
-That's a bit inflated, if I do say so myself... |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:46:18
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
If a character view then it's inherently flawed and doesn't have to mean much of anything.
Further, is it a temple of Shar? Is it some sort of "uber shadow temple"?
I wouldn't be surprised . . . by anything really. I have no idea what destination they are trying to get to (and I'm 99% sure they don't either) so I wouldn't be surprised if Shar became the FR version of the "uber shadow god" but I'd question the accuracy of any conclusions drawn from what was presented in the particular novel because of the questions above. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:03:40
Crazy Theories? 
That was in a canon novel!
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
And how do you know Shar isn't a Core God... going under another name? Hmmmmm? Didn't someone/something 'official' already mention that Lolth and Shar may in fact be the same being?
Sad part is, 85% of my "Crazy Theories" usually pan out. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:53:28
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Shar is not the foremost shadow deity in the multiverse.
-Let MT have his crazy theories... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:52:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had always felt their was something inheritantly wrong with all that, with Mystra and Shar appearing to be "two sides of the same coin", especially considering that in Realmspace, it was Selune and Shar that should have held that sort of juxtaposition.
-Agreed. Throughout the 3e run, the conflict between Shar and Mystra was put in the spotlight far too much, and too much of an emphasis was put on it, when that was really the lesser of Shar's conflicts, the major one being between her and Selūne. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:44:04
Personally, I just really wish they didn't touch upon the gods. IMO they just can't handle it, there's too much "cool" going on and not enough "well, this actually makes sense".
I mean really, it hurts my head to try and read about their decisions concerning the gods. It annoyed me in the 90's, angered me in the early 2000's and now I'm just done with it.
I'd LOVE to see a focus on the frickin churches. I mean, they really are what's important.
But whatever, I'll develop as much as I can for churches so I have something useful for my campaigns and just ignore whatever stupid antics they get the gods up to. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:04:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I remember reading in the Paul Kemp novel about that Temple with all the 'Shadow Gods' in it, and Shar was paramount. I thought, "hey! It appears that Shar is the preminant Shadow-Deity in the Multi-verse!" I thought that was a rather strange way to represent Shar, with her 'overshadowing' all the other gods... NOW it makes some sense.
Shar is not the foremost shadow deity in the multiverse.
quote:
So she's in charge of the Shadowfel (former Shadow Weave), and that plane touches EVERY OTHER WORLD in the universe... even Ao is relagated to just Realmspace.
So why is she not a core deity, then?
PS: Shar no longer controls the Shadow Weave, even though it still exists. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 14:20:07
Well, that would have been its earliest incarnation, which would mean that Shar was literally "on Mystra's back" (where those 'itches' usually occur). That would make some sense, since Mystra was composed of parts of Selune and Shar, so her 'front' would be her 'light side', and her back (side? ) would be her 'Dark Side'. I can see Shar slowing regaining control of her 'lost' energy through the eons, such that the nature of the Shadow Weave slowly changed over time.
I had always felt their was something inheritantly wrong with all that, with Mystra and Shar appearing to be "two sides of the same coin", especially considering that in Realmspace, it was Selune and Shar that should have held that sort of juxtaposition.
The ONLY good I can see coming out of all of this 4e crap is that Selune now becomes Shar's opposite, like she's supposed to be. If she was able to gain back her lost energy from Mystra (and obviously Shar did, down through the centuries), then they should be on equal footing. I wouldn't mind seeing Selune take over Arcane Magic in some form, making her more like Hecate from Greek Myth.
The only problem I see with all of that is Aumanator, since Shar is supposed to represent primordial Darkness, and Selune is suppposed to represent primordial Light. Lathander was a bit more diverse in his focus, but a true 'Sun God' is a little odd for FR - I would have to assume that the Re(Ra) is finally gone, along with the rest of the Mulan Pantheon (except Baast - she's alreadfy been re-imagined for FR).
I may get flamed for this, but if they handle it right, I may actually like the 4e pantheon set-up better.
The world... Meh... they can keep it. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 02:19:03
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then changed back...
and then finally re-changed again.
Very confusing, to say the least. At some point, it went from being dependent upon the Weave, literally 'leaning on it' for support, to being its own seperate entity, to being even more powerful then the Weave (IT survived, where the Weave did not), to be THE big thing in 4e, evolving into the multi-dimensional, transitive Plane known as the Shadowfel (and ate the Negative plane along the way as well).
-Did you include in there that it's actually part of the Weave, but just a part that Mystra cannot access? The "itch you can't reach", so to speak... |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 02:18:06
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She doesn't have it anymore - It went to the North Pole (per Elaine Cunningham), and then was waylaid and brought to Cormanthor for the re-founding of Myth Drannor (as per Rich Baker).
Prince Laruil even lost his bride-to-be in scuffle... very sad. (as per the GHotR)
-And a certain someone wrote a very nice essay on that all. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 23:57:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too)
That was the original intent. It got changed by designer fiat. 
Then changed back...
and then finally re-changed again.
Very confusing, to say the least. At some point, it went from being dependent upon the Weave, literally 'leaning on it' for support, to being its own seperate entity, to being even more powerful then the Weave (IT survived, where the Weave did not), to be THE big thing in 4e, evolving into the multi-dimensional, transitive Plane known as the Shadowfel (and ate the Negative plane along the way as well).
I remember reading in the Paul Kemp novel about that Temple with all the 'Shadow Gods' in it, and Shar was paramount. I thought, "hey! It appears that Shar is the preminant Shadow-Deity in the Multi-verse!" I thought that was a rather strange way to represent Shar, with her 'overshadowing' all the other gods... NOW it makes some sense.
So she's in charge of the Shadowfel (former Shadow Weave), and that plane touches EVERY OTHER WORLD in the universe... even Ao is relagated to just Realmspace.
Next thing you know, we'll find out she's been the Lady of Pain all along. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 23:49:15
I think that the worst decision that WotC made with 4e was not listen to the Realms crowd. Only time will tell whether they will actually rue it or not. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:57:21
quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too)
That was the original intent. It got changed by designer fiat. |
| Felen Enthelion |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:36:00
quote:
The flavor of the setting has gone from "Hope for a better future" to "hope I live until tomorrow".
If your a Mystra fan, it means your stuck in 3e... and is that really such a bad thing?
Well, I hope Shar will implode with her useless shadow weave.
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too) |
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