| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nightbreeze |
Posted - 19 Apr 2008 : 20:15:11
So, some time ago IMG the group found a small city at the eastern coast of Maztica. It is not the center of the campaign (they are bothered by other things), but it will become of primary important as there's an outsider (actually a human, but from the outside planes) decided to sponsor their city (not directly them! the money has to go for the city) with a HUGE load of gold (I am thinking about 4 millions gp here. Did I mention they are near epic level? And yes, it is a freaking amount anyway).
I mean to make a fast forward of 4-5 years, but I need to get an idea about the amount of money that a normal city/nation sees as taxes and treates...and for this, I'd like you to quote some huge money transaction in the existing manuals , or something like that. For example, in one of the 3.5 manuals there was a section where they said that a merchant that gave ...1 million? not sure...gp to the city got automatically in the reigning council.
Thanks for you help  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 01:46:09
Thanks for the clarifications, Dear Lady Hooded. This will enrich my Realms and remove much confusion. I will read over the Heralds section of Power of Faerun once more, with emphasis on trade, contracts and disputes. Thanks! |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 18:32:59
Hi, Icelander. I must rush off now, but have time enough to confirm that clerics DO witness contracts and do charge for this service (as in: "make an offering to the temple" if they're temple-based, or "coins for the god" [ = in my hand] if they're wandering, hermits, or shrine-keepers).
More later. Promise.
love,
THO |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 17:09:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Icelander, the role of adjudicating legal agreements is carried out by at least four groups, depending on where you are in the Realms:
1. heralds (who concern themselves most with definitions and identifications, such as whether you are the "Hrundar the Potter" named on the parchment, and what is meant by "my best wagon")
Ah, that's interesting. Very well, I'm sure this will enrich my campaign.
quote:
2. courtiers
3. local Black Robes (magistrates)
Do these enforce contracts? If Varandros Dyre agreed to build an adjunt to the Thann estate before Greengrass DR 1369 and failed to deliver, would the magistrates send bailiffs or Watchmen to confiscate the part of the payment already rendered?
Would the magistrates arbitrate a dispute between the parties as to whether a stipulation about 'glass windows sised so and so' refered to a specific type of glass from Calimport that the Thann steward said was verbally agreed to, but Master Dyre insisted was fully met with his Neverwinter glass windows?
quote:
4. clerics of many deities (such as Tyr)
Now, that's what I thought!
I know you're not Ed, but chances are you are at least marginally less busy, so would you mind if I asked you some more? 
I'd guess that Helm, Tyr, Torm and Waukeen were the main deities that concern themselves with this task. Is this true? What other churches do this?
Can one get a priest to witness contracts, in order to make it harder for the other party to claim fraud or misunderstanding at the signing? If so, does the church charge for this?
quote:
Now, if you're looking for "independent of government" representatives, their role is filled in larger cities (all capitals along the Sword Coast, for example, and in Sembia) by the hired "advocates" Ed has mentioned in the past. Courtiers and Black Robes tend to make rulings strongly supportive of what rulers tell them to say, or in "lock step" support of existing government policy . . . but then, that's the real-world situation, too, almost everywhere.
Clerics are independent from the government (mostly) and far more reliable than any other group could be (the bad apples are weeded out more actively than in any government-overseen licensing program). If priests of Tyr, Torm, Helm and Waukeen are available for such services, 'normal' legal specialists are almost unnecessary.
quote:
This reply is drawn from my play over the years in the Realms with Ed as DM. If you'd like a deeper lore response, post a query in this year's Questions for Eddie thread, as you did re. the gems and sailing times, and I'll make sure he sees it. He WILL respond (how soon, I can't say).
love,
THO
I'd rather bother other scribes, ones with less on their plate, before I disturb the Primary Source. Then I can be sure that Ed hasn't already answered what I'm thinking about and I get the chance to consider the question so I can ask it with maximum clarity and minimum wasted energy on Ed's part.
I might ask Ed about the role of clergy in the arbitration and enforcement of contracts. It sounds like an important subject that has been neglected. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 17:00:54
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Realms doesn't have to have anything named lawyers, if Ed has some objection to that term.
That's how I interpret things, I have to admit. In the Realms, you might not find "Smith and Brown, P.C.", staffed by Richard Brown, Esq. and John Smith, Esq. But that doesn't mean there's no one around fulfilling their basic role, or that their basic role in society isn't necessary. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 15:50:19
Icelander, the role of adjudicating legal agreements is carried out by at least four groups, depending on where you are in the Realms:
1. heralds (who concern themselves most with definitions and identifications, such as whether you are the "Hrundar the Potter" named on the parchment, and what is meant by "my best wagon")
2. courtiers
3. local Black Robes (magistrates)
4. clerics of many deities (such as Tyr)
Now, if you're looking for "independent of government" representatives, their role is filled in larger cities (all capitals along the Sword Coast, for example, and in Sembia) by the hired "advocates" Ed has mentioned in the past. Courtiers and Black Robes tend to make rulings strongly supportive of what rulers tell them to say, or in "lock step" support of existing government policy . . . but then, that's the real-world situation, too, almost everywhere.
This reply is drawn from my play over the years in the Realms with Ed as DM. If you'd like a deeper lore response, post a query in this year's Questions for Eddie thread, as you did re. the gems and sailing times, and I'll make sure he sees it. He WILL respond (how soon, I can't say).
love,
THO |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 13:13:32
quote:
1. Ed recently wrote (sorry, don't have the link at the moment, it's around page 51 of his latest answers) that there are no lawyers in Cormyr. Whether he means exactly what you mean by lawyer, I'm not sure; and I'd be hesitant to posit.
It was in the Women of the Woods answer he recently gave. My understanding was that he was refering to licensed lawyers in the modern sense.
quote:
2. I'm wondering whether your statement above is true. I'm a child and, to some extent, a scholar of the Western Canon, and I agree that, in the West, what you've written is true. But I wonder whether, outside of the Hellenic-Roman-Judeo-Christian tradition, what you wrote about lawyers existing in every complex culture is correct.
I'm familiar with the idea of an Islamic lawyer, for example, but I confess that I don't know enough about Islamic law to state that they play the same role in that culture that they do in the West. And I know even less about Hindu, Buddhist, Shintoist, African, et al. cultures.
Perhaps a scribe with more knowledge of those cultures could weigh in?
I can't think of a single culture that has managed to carry on international trade on a large-scale without some form of legal practisoners who can interpret and enforce contracts.
Islam evolved in a part of the world that already had a lot of trade and as such, quickly grew to include laws about business practises and specialists who interpreted them. The Qur'an specifies legal interest rates for loans and so on. Enforcing contracts in Islamic countries would, before centralised state authority, probably be done by the local iman.
The Realms doesn't have to have anything named lawyers, if Ed has some objection to that term. But there has to be some means of interpreting disputed clauses in contracts, or trade will resemble the European 'Dark' Ages more than what is currently described in Realmslore. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 07:21:18
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
As far as I have read, Powers of Faerun seems to indicate that courtiers are the ones handling transactions, negotiating, and such (courtiers being senior public servants acting on behalf of the crown - say in Cormyr - or in the absence of a government, on behalf of the ruling nobles or city state council)
The courtiers certainly negotiate transactions on behalf of the state polity or noble that they personally serve, but they do not act for the likes of Varandrons Dyre, master builder of Waterdeep, or Szwentil Illeon, master merchant of Marsember.
In Cormyr, certainly, crown-appointed bailiffs in service of the local lord canonically enforce contracts (bailiffs selling items confiscated for debt is mentioned in Volo's Guide to Cormyr). This is because Cormyr is a country with a strong, centralised state authority. Waterdeep, however, does not appear to have the heavy hand of the state involved in business as much as Cormyr.
Varandros Dyre employs clever young clerks, presumably familiar with the relevant laws. But what do these clerks do when someone who has signed a contract with their master cites a differing understanding of a key clause in the contract?
In my Realms, at least, they go to a cleric of Tyr, Waukeen or another applicible god that witnessed the contract. This cleric arbitrates the dispute. If the parties cannot come to an agreement, the priest makes a ruling that both sides agree to live by.
quote:
As for enforcement of contracts, I have not read that chapter yet but I believe "The Heralds" do this across the Realms (some kind of international standards enforcers... literally "standard bearers")
Someone can correct me here but I'm starting to believe the Heralds are the glue that holds trade together, or at least somekind of "Charter of Freedoms" or "Rules for Everyone to Get Along Together."
Ok, I'm off to read about them in more details now... 
I see nothing in the text that suggests that Heralds concern themselves with the enforcement of financial agreements. On the contrary, I think that doing so would undermine their important authority in the realm of heraldry.
That's why, in my campaign, I've postulated the clergy of certain gods as impartial arbitrators. Waukeen, especially, has much to gain by providing such a service. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 03:08:11
As far as I have read, Powers of Faerun seems to indicate that courtiers are the ones handling transactions, negotiating, and such (courtiers being senior public servants acting on behalf of the crown - say in Cormyr - or in the absence of a government, on behalf of the ruling nobles or city state council)
As for enforcement of contracts, I have not read that chapter yet but I believe "The Heralds" do this across the Realms (some kind of international standards enforcers... literally "standard bearers")
Someone can correct me here but I'm starting to believe the Heralds are the glue that holds trade together, or at least somekind of "Charter of Freedoms" or "Rules for Everyone to Get Along Together."
Ok, I'm off to read about them in more details now... |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Jul 2008 : 07:49:25
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Latest canon source (Power of Faerun) reinforces that there are no lawyer as we know them in the Realms... read the "Order in the Court" chapter...
I've read it.
But the absence of criminal lawyers is much easier to believe than the complete absence of business and contract lawyers.
Kings and lords can handle hanging and flogging those they want hanged and flogged without much in the way of lawyers getting in the way. That's fine and certainly worked in history. I'm just having difficulty imaging them running around arbitrating small claims, solving arguments over the meaning of clauses in contracts and so on and so forth.
Historically, some societies didn't have legal remedies to enforce contracts. Historically, such societies also didn't have complex mercantile arrangements, moneylenders and/or other features of the major powers in Faerun.
We know that a merchant of Waterdeep, Suzail or Saerloon can buy his wares on credit if he's well established, he can form a coster or priakos with other merchants, he can even employ agents in far-flung places to buy merchandise for him.
But what does he do when someone he has an agreement with simply refues to honour it? Who does he turn to? Do local authorities really handle such disputes? If so, they'll spend much more time on those than keeping the peace and punishing criminals. If the merchant has got no recourse but to hire violent criminals to beat the defaulter up or kill him (or at the very least intimidate him), then I find it hard to believe that trade can really be as widespread as it canonically is in Faerun.
I can't think of any trading culture in our world that came close to the size and power of Amn or Sembia without lawyers being involved. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 23:41:54
Latest canon source (Power of Faerun) reinforces that there are no lawyer as we know them in the Realms... read the "Order in the Court" chapter... |
| thom |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 21:53:33
I can't remember what year it was that he was asked, but Ed has said that there are no lawyers 'per se' in the Realms. There are what is called 'advocates' who speak for the defendant. Here's a cut-and-paste from my Word file of his replies:
...The Realms does NOT have barristers and solicitors, robed and wigged or otherwise. It DOES have some advocates, paid orators who will speak in court (always in the presence of an accused, not appearing in his or her stead) who may know something of the law and can give advice to an accused. some orators are real ‘showmen’ who mimic the voices of people, act out things, and engage in furious debate in court -- which, being great entertainment, is seldom cut short even by angry judges or rulers, because the ‘common people’ like it..
He obviously said more, but this is all I chose to save for my campaign.  Hope it helps!
thom
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 23:03:16
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Might a question for Ed be in order?
Of course! He always likes questions from fans. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 18:27:24
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Lawyers aren't a modern invention. They've existed in every single society that becomes complex enough.
'Strewth. "Twas Shakespeare, after all, who wrote: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
And the golden age of lawyers was probably Republican Rome.
The ability to enforce contracts is a prerequisite for the kind of commerce that goes on in many parts of the Realms. Hence, I'd like to establish something about how it's done.
As I said, I'm postulating the clergy of Tyr as arbitrators and legal advisors to the common people, the clergy of Waukeen as notaries and (for a price) guarantors for contracts and for other clergy to perhaps perform similar services for contracts relating to their portfolios.
I don't think it really fits the established governing authorites in most parts of the Realms to arbitrate private disputes arising from differing interpretrations of contractual obligations. Sembia and Amn might be obvious exceptions, of course.
Might a question for Ed be in order? After all, it is quite important to many games how a moneylender or employer goes about enforcing a contract that the characters cannot fulfill. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 15:16:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He felt they were not only unnecessary, but undesirable.
I agree with him.
I do recall a scene from Spellfire, though (at least, I think it was Spellfire) where Mirt had a problem with a particular merchant attempting to renege on a deal he'd made with said moneylender. He solved it, IIRC, by staging a deception with Laeral, wherein he asked her to crawl across the carpet and kiss his feet, begging for mercy. The merchant in question was suitably impressed (or perhaps "terrified" is a better term for it?) and fell into line.
In real life, there'd probably be a lawyer and so on to deal with that, but if there aren't any lawyers in the Realms (or at least Waterdeep), then one must needs be more inventive. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 14:29:54
Having worked and studied in the legal field, I have to come down on Icelander's side in this. I, personally, would have lawyers in my Realms. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 02:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Really, that comic is the only reference to lawyers in the Realms that I know of.
Lawyers have been mentioned in a few Realms sources.
The one reference that immediately comes to mind is a rather prickly description of lawyers by Elminster in one of the 'Wizards Three' articles. The 'Wizards Three' lawyer reference is in "Once More the Three" [DRAGON #200]:-
“’Lawyer’? What’s a lawyer?” Dalamar asked.
“An agent for thieves and the like, widely used in this world to keep folk from using their swords. They fence with words, not blades,” Elminster replied. Mordenkainen grunted around a forkful of lasagna, “If I know anything about such envoys, most of them doubtless will soon be bigger thieves than those they represent.”
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 02:33:08
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn
From campaigns I've been involved in both P&P and also online NWN, lawyers are hardly about and it was often paladins and priests of Tyr who investigated legal matters on behalf of which ever noble or mechant who needed legal representation. Of course, Tormish paladins and priests also where often consulted however they would defer to the Tyran's clergy on such matters unless they were absolutely certain on the point of law.
Indeed. That interpretation seems to fit, based on Faiths and Avatars, for example.
I've got a priest of Tyr in my campaign who is essentially the chief legal advisor of a merchant company he owns a part of. Not to mention the conscience of said company.
His temple isn't all that happy with his involvement in mercantile matters, but haven't forbidden it yet. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 02:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He didn't see a need for them. He felt they were not only unnecessary, but undesirable.
Well, everyone will have his peccadillos.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Really, that comic is the only reference to lawyers in the Realms that I know of.
And that short story in Realms of Mystery, of course. And references to the magistrates in Waterdeep, Luskan, Raven's Bluff, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the laws are logical, straight-forward, and well-explained, I don't see a need for someone to interpret them.
Making logical, straight-forward and well-explained laws that can't be interpreted in more ways than one is a task that has seldom or never been successfully carried out in our history. When it has succeeded, it has generally been because of the heroic efforts of trained lawyers, not blind luck.
Human nature in Faerun is pretty much the same as here. And here people have shown an amazing ability to read the same thing in many different ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And if there are mechanisms in place to prevent breach of contract -- like neutral third parties or magical reinforcement -- then lawyers are again unnecessary.
Neutral third parties sound an awful lot like lawyers to me. It helps their credibility if they're priest of Tyr or Waukeen, of course, but their function is to work as arbitrators and lawyers.
In my game, Waukeenar clergy offers to witness business contracts for a fee (based on the wealth involved in the contract). Anyone breaking such a contract, as interpreted by the presiding priest and the god, incurs the displeasure of Waukeen.
Tyrrans do something similar, with a wider application. They don't charge, but will only witness agreements the making of which they believe serves the cause of Tyr.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think you're trying to apply modern, real-world thinking to a world that is neither modern nor real. The laws of most Realmsian nations are simply not complex enough to require interpretation.
Lawyers aren't a modern invention. They've existed in every single society that becomes complex enough.
And the simpler and shorter laws are, the more room there is for different interpretations. That may not be a problem when a ruler can say 'my interpretation goes', but it is definitely problematic when those laws affect only private individuals and the ruler has no special interest in resolving the dispute.
If there courts who resolve such disputes, we've got lawyers. And if there aren't; Sembian, Waterhavian, Amnian and Theskan trade will be that much less profitable and that much more difficult. |
| Talwyn |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 02:24:29
From campaigns I've been involved in both P&P and also online NWN, lawyers are hardly about and it was often paladins and priests of Tyr who investigated legal matters on behalf of which ever noble or mechant who needed legal representation. Of course, Tormish paladins and priests also where often consulted however they would defer to the Tyran's clergy on such matters unless they were absolutely certain on the point of law. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 02:15:53
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The lawyers were manipulated by Khelben into having to enforce a marriage contract. The lawyer assigned to the task failed to see that it was carried out, instead choosing to run in a panic. As he was leaving, Khelben warned him that leaving would break the contract the lawyers had with the city. The lawyer was so determined to escape that he didn't care.
The whole thing was a plot set up by Khelben to get the lawyers out of the city.
Why did Khelben want lawyers out of the city?
I've often heard prejudice against lawyers, but the more complex society becomes, the more they are needed. And Waterhavian trade practices can presumably get a bit complex sometimes.
He didn't see a need for them. He felt they were not only unnecessary, but undesirable.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that lawyers are particularly strong anywhere in the Realms. I wouldn't imagine that there's more than a handful in any but the most lawful cities... And even then, it would depend in part on how the city was ruled, and on the culture of the city/nation.
Are they allowed in Cormyr, for example? What about Sembia? Does the Church of Tyr anywhere function as lawyers in some capacity (I've found in my campaigns that they often arbitrate disputes, at least)?
Really, that comic is the only reference to lawyers in the Realms that I know of.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a tidbit I read the other day:
quote:
In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.
Now, I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if they're even close to correct, they show how each culture is different. The source I got these numbers from was discussing how the Japanese, with their more group-oriented society, don't litigate civil disputes as much, and that their laws are structured (according to that author) in a more common sense manner.
With laws in the Realms often being very straight-forward, and with sometimes capricious rulers in place, I just don't see there being much room for lawyers in the system.
Where there are laws, there is a need for people who specialise in applying and interpreting it.
We can maybe assume that civil litigation is rare, in the absence of clear cut breach of contract cases, and that magistrates in most places actively investigate the cases, rendering prosecutors and defence counsel unnecessary; but I can't see how you escape the need for large-scale merchants and moneylenders to have experts who write, interpret and enforce their contracts.
If the laws are logical, straight-forward, and well-explained, I don't see a need for someone to interpret them.
And if there are mechanisms in place to prevent breach of contract -- like neutral third parties or magical reinforcement -- then lawyers are again unnecessary.
I think you're trying to apply modern, real-world thinking to a world that is neither modern nor real. The laws of most Realmsian nations are simply not complex enough to require interpretation. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 01:31:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The lawyers were manipulated by Khelben into having to enforce a marriage contract. The lawyer assigned to the task failed to see that it was carried out, instead choosing to run in a panic. As he was leaving, Khelben warned him that leaving would break the contract the lawyers had with the city. The lawyer was so determined to escape that he didn't care.
The whole thing was a plot set up by Khelben to get the lawyers out of the city.
Why did Khelben want lawyers out of the city?
I've often heard prejudice against lawyers, but the more complex society becomes, the more they are needed. And Waterhavian trade practices can presumably get a bit complex sometimes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know that lawyers are particularly strong anywhere in the Realms. I wouldn't imagine that there's more than a handful in any but the most lawful cities... And even then, it would depend in part on how the city was ruled, and on the culture of the city/nation.
Are they allowed in Cormyr, for example? What about Sembia? Does the Church of Tyr anywhere function as lawyers in some capacity (I've found in my campaigns that they often arbitrate disputes, at least)?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's a tidbit I read the other day:
quote:
In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.
Now, I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if they're even close to correct, they show how each culture is different. The source I got these numbers from was discussing how the Japanese, with their more group-oriented society, don't litigate civil disputes as much, and that their laws are structured (according to that author) in a more common sense manner.
With laws in the Realms often being very straight-forward, and with sometimes capricious rulers in place, I just don't see there being much room for lawyers in the system.
Where there are laws, there is a need for people who specialise in applying and interpreting it.
We can maybe assume that civil litigation is rare, in the absence of clear cut breach of contract cases, and that magistrates in most places actively investigate the cases, rendering prosecutors and defence counsel unnecessary; but I can't see how you escape the need for large-scale merchants and moneylenders to have experts who write, interpret and enforce their contracts. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 01:22:10
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Look... for the purposes of owning businesses within the D&D game framework, DMG2 works fine. You're overanalyzing things here. If you want to run an economic simulation in lieu of a D&D game, you can do so... but good luck! even real-world economic models can't represent reality perfectly...
I don't run a D&D game. I run a GURPS game set in the Forgotten Realms. I try to keep the lore accurate, but I don't care whether the lore fits into the D&D rules.
And assuming such a low real marginal productivity of capital in the Realms hurts my brain and doesn't fit with the lore. We know the interest rates of moneylenders in several places (City of Raven's Bluff being one example, written by Ed, no less) and we therefore know that capital is scarce and productive in Raven's Bluff, for example.
I'm not trying to model reality exactly. I am trying to model the Realms well enough so that they feel real and vibrant, not unrealistic and forced. Yes, I know that there is magic, gods and monsters, but I want to ask the questions: 'What if the world was really like that? What would happen? How would people behave?'
An imaginary garden with real toads, if you're familiar with the expression.
And, by the by, my game focuses heavily on trade, currency speculation and high finance. We've found that negotiating a huge loan and then succeeding with a risky enterprise to repay it can be every bit as exciting and adventurous as slaying dragons. Doing both at the same time, of course, is even better. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 20:06:14
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Therefore, it beggars belief that a market which includes such high-risk, high-yield investment opportunities like low-tech trade over pirate infested waters and adventuring expeditions would have a low real interest rate on capital. Capital is scarce, given that we have plenty of undeveloped land, and therefore should have a high positive real marginal productivity.
Look... for the purposes of owning businesses within the D&D game framework, DMG2 works fine. You're overanalyzing things here. If you want to run an economic simulation in lieu of a D&D game, you can do so... but good luck! even real-world economic models can't represent reality perfectly... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 20:00:43
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )
There were... But they broke their contract with the city and can no longer operate there. It was in issue 23 of the AD&D comic, the one that has my all-time fave artwork of Kyriani. 
I remember this bit of lore being alluded to in a short story about The Society of Stalwart Venturers in Suzail.
Do you remember when this happened? And what it was that the lawyers did?
And do you know where in Faerun lawyers are particularly strong as a group?
I'm afraid I have to confess some partiality to lawyers, since I happen to be one.
1358, according to the old Presenting... Seven Millennia of Realms Fiction chronology.
The lawyers were manipulated by Khelben into having to enforce a marriage contract. The lawyer assigned to the task failed to see that it was carried out, instead choosing to run in a panic. As he was leaving, Khelben warned him that leaving would break the contract the lawyers had with the city. The lawyer was so determined to escape that he didn't care.
The whole thing was a plot set up by Khelben to get the lawyers out of the city.
I don't know that lawyers are particularly strong anywhere in the Realms. I wouldn't imagine that there's more than a handful in any but the most lawful cities... And even then, it would depend in part on how the city was ruled, and on the culture of the city/nation.
Here's a tidbit I read the other day:
quote:
In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.
Now, I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if they're even close to correct, they show how each culture is different. The source I got these numbers from was discussing how the Japanese, with their more group-oriented society, don't litigate civil disputes as much, and that their laws are structured (according to that author) in a more common sense manner.
With laws in the Realms often being very straight-forward, and with sometimes capricious rulers in place, I just don't see there being much room for lawyers in the system. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 19:41:01
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Icelander, the 1400gp a month is the net profit he gains from this one business (i.e. merchant league). It includes all costs (salaries, capital investments, input materials, etc.)
It probably doesn't include capital amortization, does it? At least, when I checked the system, investments cost money and you used your net profit to recoup those.
quote:
I have used the DMG2 in my game and it is very well balanced. A PC can have multiple businesses, run by NPCs he appoints to run the show (but the PC remains the founding member/owner/original investor), and having multiple businesses is when this system becomes profitable (just like serial venturers in real life!)
Give Dabron a break! he just came back from the Endless Waste!! give him a few years and he will have a few businesses running (i.e. he's got all 5 levels of merchant prince, and he gets a 50% discount on capital investments, for the sake of Waukeen! )
Multiple businesses shouldn't necessarily be more profitable than one big one.
quote:
Edit: the real estate market in Waterdeep is way above the costs listed in DMG2, and that's fine... you got to think out of the box. A half-elf, dwarf or elf would not care to take a 100-year mortgage; and most humans who chafe at not being the full owners of their land can always still take a 100-year mortgage and sell it at the end of their life, keeping whatever they've invested in it so far... so nothing is lost (remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )
I thought about the presence of long-lived races and whether that would lead to a very low time preference across the economy. But I don't buy it. For one thing, I don't subscribe to the Austrian school belief that a person's time preference is an exogenous personal characteristic (one that could be influenced by race or long life). I believe that it's an equilbrium price, which is determined endogenously by the production possibilities facing the person (or economy).
Therefore, it beggars belief that a market which includes such high-risk, high-yield investment opportunities like low-tech trade over pirate infested waters and adventuring expeditions would have a low real interest rate on capital. Capital is scarce, given that we have plenty of undeveloped land, and therefore should have a high positive real marginal productivity. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 18:25:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )
There were... But they broke their contract with the city and can no longer operate there. It was in issue 23 of the AD&D comic, the one that has my all-time fave artwork of Kyriani.
I remember this bit of lore being alluded to in a short story about The Society of Stalwart Venturers in Suzail.
Do you remember when this happened? And what it was that the lawyers did?
And do you know where in Faerun lawyers are particularly strong as a group?
I'm afraid I have to confess some partiality to lawyers, since I happen to be one. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 18:15:05
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )
There were... But they broke their contract with the city and can no longer operate there. It was in issue 23 of the AD&D comic, the one that has my all-time fave artwork of Kyriani. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 17:46:35
Icelander, the 1400gp a month is the net profit he gains from this one business (i.e. merchant league). It includes all costs (salaries, capital investments, input materials, etc.)
I have used the DMG2 in my game and it is very well balanced. A PC can have multiple businesses, run by NPCs he appoints to run the show (but the PC remains the founding member/owner/original investor), and having multiple businesses is when this system becomes profitable (just like serial venturers in real life!)
Give Dabron a break! he just came back from the Endless Waste!! give him a few years and he will have a few businesses running (i.e. he's got all 5 levels of merchant prince, and he gets a 50% discount on capital investments, for the sake of Waukeen! )
Edit: the real estate market in Waterdeep is way above the costs listed in DMG2, and that's fine... you got to think out of the box. A half-elf, dwarf or elf would not care to take a 100-year mortgage; and most humans who chafe at not being the full owners of their land can always still take a 100-year mortgage and sell it at the end of their life, keeping whatever they've invested in it so far... so nothing is lost (remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! ) |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 12:51:17
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Icelander: use the NPC detailed at the end of the "Play the Market" section of Power of Faerun (i.e. Dabron Sashenstar), which shows the total profit modifier of this merchant prince. It uses the business rules detailed in DMG2.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dabron_Sashenstar
Cheers!
I have the Power of Faerun, but I don't have DMG2. I'll buy any Forgotten Realms tome with any hope for lore, but I have no desire to reward WotC for creating splatbook after splatbook of crunch. I stopped playing D&D after 2nd Edition AD&D, i.e. at the time they released a version dumbed down for kids. I hear they're releasing another such dumbed down version now, this time to emulate WoW and Warhammer Online.
Besides, D&D 3.x economics are messed up. Ed's Realms usually make sense. D&D game rules, as a rule, do not. For example, a 23rd level character like Dabron can expect to possess assets worth 1,500,000 gp or 290,000 gp depending on whether he's a PC or NPC. Yet, his annual profits are the same 1,400/month or 16,800/year, regardless of whether he's a PC or NPC, meaning that a PC receives a 1.12% return on his investment yearly, but an NPC receives 5.79%.
The latter number might be okay, if a bit low, but the former number is terrible. As in, a real business couldn't function with it. And, a quick analysis of Dabron reveals that he's equipped with items worth far more than 290,000 gp, so I guess he's being treated as a PC.
I understand that when characters buy mithril shirts with powerful enchantments on them, the money spent on that is not available for other projects. But I don't understand why a merchant lord would have most of his assets in the form of magical weapons and armor, instead of investments that yield him an acceptable rate of return.
I don't want a profit margin tied to levels. I don't even want levels. I'll do my own calculations based on the investments in question.
I'm just looking for Realmsian canon about how much money there is in circulation, how much other merchant companies are making and how much a fabulously rich person owns. And that's something that I'm reluctant to take from a D&D table based on levels, if only because such tables make no sense at all and make half-orc barbarians who don't value money exactly as rich as Sembian merchant lords, because of the level system. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 08:20:04
Icelander: use the NPC detailed at the end of the "Play the Market" section of Power of Faerun (i.e. Dabron Sashenstar), which shows the total profit modifier of this merchant prince. It uses the business rules detailed in DMG2.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dabron_Sashenstar
Cheers!
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