| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 Dec 2023 : 14:35:51
I'm pulling this thread from the thread where we're tracking the mountainload of Ed twitter responses, because even though I knew I wrote it, I had problems finding it last night. I watched the complete video and tried to make some basic notes about continents and such. I then made an EXTREMELY rough map... something like just trying to put an "order" east to west (and maybe some north/south) of the places he mentions. Maybe one of the takeaways this thread might be able to help would be to aid getting some basic entries in the FR wiki about Abeir's locations. I will add as well.... Ed's descriptions describes a world that is more humanocentric than I had been thinking it might be (less reptilian/amphibian cultures mentioned than I would have put).... and it also definitely reduces the concept of how many genasi are there, etc...
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
On most comprehensive look at Abeir
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028
Dec 1, 2023
@TheEdVerse
After years of requests, I've finally done it!
Please enjoy this video, my most comprehensive look at Abeir, as told by a halfling adventurer to the "Old Mage," Elminster of Shadowdale!
#realmslore #dnd #forgottenrealms #baldursgate3
LINK: https://youtu.be/XBeeDMJFnzo
<https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1730363666573165028/photo/1>
My hat off to the sage. Though it may (or may not) conflict with some of what I had been doing with the region, I have to give the man props for not glossing here. He did try and throw a decent amount of regional names, individual names, etc... in this. By chance has anyone got a transcript of this to read rather than listen to? I'd be intrigued to see if anyone has tried to lay this out in some form of map.
Some takeaway notes that I quickly noted
Dark elves are in this world in the "Nardark" and are called the Narren Drow ... their term for underdark. Yet elves supposedly are NOT. To note as well, the worlds separated supposedly prior to the arrival of Fey in Faerun. Some of these dark elves are also said to "worship the Queen of Chaos"... which hints to god worship on Abeir despite us being told otherwise (or perhaps it might be better said "demon lord worship").
Secondarily... one thing we had wondered is if this world might not be anything like Toril ... in that it might be a world primarily inhabited by reptilian/draconic/amphibian humanoids. But most of what he seems to be describing would fit with most other worlds (i.e. humans, dwarves, halflings, limited numbers of genasi, etc...). He does say its a world of no elves, but at the same time, he mentions a group of drow in the world... so....
Some notes on "regions" that I'm making
information is thirdhand from a halfling Dhalk Marrowsar, and this information seems to be post spellplague... but possibly pre second sundering (i.e. I don't know if Dhalk came to Toril as a part of second sundering)
Four continents since Laerokand came to Toril. The boiling sea replaced Laerokand, but isn't hot.. its turbulent with whirlpools and strong currents.
Marranth
Largest continent. Mountainous masses and huge sea cliffs. Roughly diamond shaped "twisted into a curve from due south around to northeast". Seems to have 13 "lines" of mountains (or 12 valleys) that seem to cross the continent like a somewhat parallel set of stripes. Dragons hunt herd beasts in the valleys and endlessly compete, plot, etc....
Irronther
East of Marranth "across the arserpent sea"
long narrow north-south continent of rolling lands with fewer mountains, the main mountains being on the coast facing Marrath. Its southern two thirds is jungle and filled "with what we deem monsters", including tentacled things and snakes and "more than snakes" and beholders. Some rare genasi and some dragonborn who "live close to the land" are here as well. The northern third of Irronther, north of Vast Lake Yaeranche which is roughly kidney / bean shaped north-south, is temperate and largely forests. Forests slowing getting cleared by the halflings and humans living there ruled by various petty "wizards and armored bullies". NOTE: WIZARDS .... doesn't have the weave, but has wizards... of course.. perhaps Torilian imports? Perhaps doing magic in a different way?
Dwarves are the strongest force in this northern territory. Staundoun is the main dwarven realm ruled by it Iron Council. Ahezurt in the extreme northeast is a splinter realm and ruled by two outcast clans (Hezmur and Nornhammer). Hezmur was kicked out because it believed in a meritocracy versus "elders" ruling, and Nornhammer because they pushed for a turn to agriculture versus forging. Boldaunth is a second splinter realm to the southeast are splinter realms which broke away because they wanted to explore the world and trade versus forging and hoarding.
Below the dwarves in the "Nardark" are the "Wild Deeps" in which reside monsters and drow (called the Narren drow). Sidenote: given that they are called "Narren Drow" ... I would really like to connect these dark elves to Narathmault/Dun Tharos.... which existed prior to the dark elven forced descent to note.
Lake Yaeranche has human dominated villages along its coast, but still apparently a diverse population that is open to new ideas/new innovations (including spell experimentation). This region is often known as the Cauldron for its brewing of new ideas.
Kannath - off east coast of Irronther, archipelago range of large and small islands, filled with various races... not detailed what the races are. The seas surrounding it are the Dun Seas and are muddy in color.
East of Kannath is where Laerakond used to be and the "Cold Straits"... but now its the "boiling sea"... a dangerous area of whirlpools and currents. Few sail this region, and north of it is the "Ice Run"... a series of rocky islets that are often plagued by dangerous whales and squids that attack ships
Shyr
second largest land mass... east of where Laerakond had been... which was the boiling sea during the spellplague... so in theory where Faerun is kind of.
Karshimis ruled SOME of this continent (Karshaunt now... eastern most portion of Shyr). He ruled from "Soaring Mount Vore", which in theory would be where his Citadel of Burning Ice was located. Human and dragonborn inhabited. Used to be called the "Lands of the Rising Dragons" because young dragons would come here seeking to make a name for themselves. After spellplague, much of it became "The Mistlands" and were areas of hot springs, volcanos, and flowing lava.
Two thirds of the continent (the central heart of it) is "The Dragon Realms" where dragons rule over humans, dwarves, halflings, and a few dragonborn. Dragons have internally warred to great scale apparently in the past with the 1st, 2nd, and third Wyrmstrife.
Western of the dragon realms are two regions
the "Sarcoast Lands"... a swampy place where halflings live in the southern portion and "tentacled things of monstrous size" rule tiny realms over the rest of this region. The halfling section is called Narragult . The sarcoast lands are twice as wide as its northerly neibhbor of Carngor, but both are equally "long" in the north/south perspective.
Carngor is also on the other side of the dragon realms and is human ruled lands in hilly territory, with a lord loosely ruling from Harhult the Hollow Mountain. Lots of baronies. It would seem to be to the north of the Sarcoast lands, but west of the dragon realms... since the sarcoast is mentioned as bordering the Tarsark mountains... but at the same time an earlier reference to Narragult mention it as east of that land... so perhaps its "northeast" of the sarcoast lands and perhaps the sarcoast area is more trapezoid in shape... fatter at the bottom
Between the Sarcoast and Dragon realms is a "knife edged" mountain range called the Tarsark Mountains, named after a primordial who supposedly was torn apart there... and the reason that this region is inhabited by numerous "ghostlike or varied undead". Above one of the peaks is the city of Xxiphu (from the abolithic sovereignty... whom they refer to as "The Qua"). More monstrous creatures have appeared in teh Tarsark mountains of recent. Safe passes thru these mountains are Glander Pass, the Wideway, and High Vaerult. These passes link the westernmost dragon realms with the long slender hill realm of Carngor.
The southwest portion of the continent of Shyr must be Thultyl, a seacoast plateau in a higher altitude than the sarcoast lands to the east... filled with dragonborn who feud nigh endlessly, paying at least lip service to an overking named Vraelyn. The region is divided into regions ruled by local lords at ports or "High Holds" (regions farther up and off of the seacoast). They drop their feuds to hunt any dragon dumb enough to enter their territory from the Dragon Realms. Its said that Thultyl... like the Fens and Carngor .. stretch a long way north and south.
Thultyl supposedly shelters the fens/Sarcoast Lands from the "ever more frequent storms blowing off the boiling sea".
Lhoraun
"Far to the East" ...Across the Oshlar Sea, beyond Karshaunt... or not so far west of Marranth, across the Andol Sea. Some say it stretches into the Frozen seas of the North Pole. They provide little information about this land, but it would seem to possibly have people from Toril. Also, not visited by the halfling, so all he has are unconfirmed rumors.
So, that's the words from this halfling... its possible that there were only 4 continents... but he may not have known everything that "swapped" during the spellplague. Lhoraun would seem to be the perfect place to drop in Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, Katashaka. For all we know, Lhoraun is actually the largest "continent", because everything is skewed by what this halfling "knows" to be true. He may also be working from old data as well. If we dropped those continents in there, then the nearest other continent is Marranth.. which seems to primarily be mountains and valley hunting grounds for youngish dragons that internally feud. These dragons, if not as organized to have realms, might have been easier to turn away than say the ones in Shyr.
Hmmm, also... not sure if Ed produced anything like a map... but I threw together this to get a ROUGH... I mean ROUGH ... MAY BE WAY OFF... idea of the layout based on his conversation.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11QLKpd1DdUI2ctAwrNNJMbCfdWsAaEHz/view?usp=sharing |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 Jun 2024 : 15:42:21
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
Mystra was killed on 29 Tarsakh, so spring, I guess.
So, anyways, I was reading about Xorvintroth, the dragonborn city that was basically the "Abeiran Myth Drannor". Something that I find interesting is that the dragonborn drew energy from the Far Realm to be able to use arcane magic. Andi love this idea. Abeir is supposed to be the hard mode world (while Toril is easy mode), and having magic depend on the volatile and highly dangerous energies of the Far Realm is an idea that I like more than giving Mystra power in Abeir.
Interesting... keep the finds coming. So, this is from Adventurer's League, which some folks have deemed non-canon, but honestly... I'm all for accepting things if its not severely conflicting. I've only lightly delved this material, mostly to get info on the city of Mulmaster, so I never saw this. Posting link below so that other casual browsers can review.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Xorvintroth
But, in the end I'm fine with this as well.. in 3e there were people that took the alienist prestige class and had their magic influenced by the far realm... plus the idea that warlocks whose patron is from the far realms could also be seen as having this source.
In all, I think having "multiple possible sources" is the best path to move going forward. Now, this may not match with the 5e motto of keeping everything simple, but I've always been cool with "exceptions" that make things interesting even if it makes it more complex.
One thing that occurs to me that might be worthwhile "resembles" what was done with the warlock knights of Vaasa. They mined "felliron" from the body of a primordial, and he "regenerated" the material. They then used this felliron to make things. For all we know, there may be other primordials in Abeir doing something similar and this "material" becomes a source.
EDIT: one thing to note for that city you mentioned is this from that Wiki. So, this city had access to "the astral" and therefor IN THEORY by 5e standards should have had access to the outer planes. But if we accept some oddities of 3.5e that make planar mechanics more mysterious and harder to track, it also can make limiting these statements more viable.
The most wise and learned of Xorvintroth's inventors utilized psionic abilities to shift the consciousnesses to the Astral Plane. Unshackled by the constrains of time and mortality, they could conceive of how to best improve the life of Xorvintroth's citizens. It was from within the Astral Plane that they gained the inspiration on how to harness harness the powers they had extracted from the remote Far Realm.
I will note, in 3.5e the FRPG it definitely notes that each world has their own astral and that divine domains were TIED to that astral. So, the Abyss of realmspace wasn't the Abyss of Greyspace, etc... Mystra's dweomerheart is attached to the realmspace Astral as is Leira's divine domain, etc.....
One of the things I'm very much wanting to pursue is a concept to change "a lot of these gods disappeared/died" and instead have it be "a lot of these gods that were believed to have disappeared instead
went to Abeir". For a lot of them, this can be covered by their divine domains simply "swapped astrals" into Abeir's astral. So, the "sages" got it wrong... dweomerheart didn't explode... it moved.
To note, in the previous example... I made it extremely simple, but in truth there's even "more than one astral" tied to Toril. For instance, Kara-Tur and its surrounding section of the world is linked to "the spirit world" acting as its astral. Maztica similarly has its own "astral" which connects to its divine domains. Zakhara's lands are linked to its own "astral". It may make your head spin, but its also one way to explain away some very weird stuff.
Other divine domains that may have swapped during this time frame (and possibly PRIOR to the spellplague or SOON AFTER as well... to keep options open)
Zigguraxus - Untheric Pantheon
Heliopolis - Mulhorandi Pantheon
Leira's Court of Illusion
Amaunator's Keep of the Eternal Sun (came to Toril)
Supreme Throne (Cyric's realm)
In theory... we might even find out that the "abyss being in the elemental chaos" is a part of all this as well.
For some other deities swapping over, they may have had multiple "homes" if they were in multiple pantheons (so for instance, I have the Metahel of Anchorome having their pantheon available while in Abeir... and I have numerous deities that are veiled Faerunian gods... Hemdahl is Helm... Anachtar is Tyr ... Faerthandir is Lathander) and so we use this as an excuse to explain things that are "hard" to explain from a purely "Faerunian" viewpoint. We obviously don't need to account for everything, because mortals don't exactly understand the "science" of the divine and planar rules... but this concept gives us a quick explanation for some things that happened.
One thing that might also be used as an explanation in some of this is like an idea that Tyr didn't die, Lathander just disappear, etc.. but rather when they were imprisoning Cyric in the Supreme Throne someone (Amaunator? a long hidden avatar of Valigan Thirdborn ?) may have detached the divine domain via "shenanigans". Maybe Sune escaped... maybe she didn't. Maybe this triggers the transfer of the Metahel Pantheon. Maybe this results in Tyr "booting" a backup avatar, who then gets killed per canon. Could be a good story though. Main thing... gods can do things that will make our head spin, and what you "know" happened is likely NOT the truth. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 19 Jun 2024 : 07:42:18
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
Mystra was killed on 29 Tarsakh, so spring, I guess.
So, anyways, I was reading about Xorvintroth, the dragonborn city that was basically the "Abeiran Myth Drannor". Something that I find interesting is that the dragonborn drew energy from the Far Realm to be able to use arcane magic. Andi love this idea. Abeir is supposed to be the hard mode world (while Toril is easy mode), and having magic depend on the volatile and highly dangerous energies of the Far Realm is an idea that I like more than giving Mystra power in Abeir. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jun 2024 : 17:17:09
Hmmm, and regards the twitter map update based on Ed's Abeir update, it seems the guy put out another version (not necessarily Ed approved that I know of, but its interesting).
https://www.deviantart.com/arakkoa/art/Map-of-Abeir-per-Ed-Greenwood-lore-1028645824
One piece I found particularly interesting was the idea that Shyr's mountain ranges seem to form the shape of a draconic skeleton in this version.
He also includes the Ranthram Chain of islands and the bump previously described by Ed on Marranth.
I still don't know if I like the idea of Laerakond being so big (the size in 4e seems to be very particularly matching the size and shape to the size and shape of the "Maztica" subcontinent... i.e. minus the lands called Lopango and Anchorome). From one perspective it might make some of the drastic changes in environment make sense, but it also drastically increases the size of the realms on Laerakond. I'd much rather keep this realm small but also have it NOT transferred back to Abeir. Still, that's "opinion" and so its definitely open to interpretation.
It would also be interesting to note WHERE on Shyr Halruaa landed (i.e. was it on the northeastern portion of this bordering on Karshaunt).
On a side note: I'm obviously interested in shoehorning in a huge bit of territory comprising "Anchorome", Maztica, Lopango, and some of northern Katashaka to Abeir (all because if they didn't, then why didn't Laerakond interface with them since they'd be closer than say Faerun). The more I'm thinking on things too, I'm thinking Lhoraun might be an interesting place to transfer some portion of the eastern Shaar that was replaced by the "Underchasm".... so like portion of the eastern Shaar may have just merged as new land/island up in the north. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 Jun 2024 : 14:50:39
Some notes that might be useful to add to the FR Wiki based upon Ed's recent youtube presentation on Halruaa and what happened to it in Abeir. I note that a lot of it already has been put in the wiki, but "rewriting" this has helped me cement some facts in my head. The main facts that I note in the below are about WHERE and WHEN Halruaa appeared in Abeir and what were the effects on them as a country (i.e. little water, no seacoast, in a wintry land instead of a hot land, etc...).
Halruaan elders "plane shifted a a force web cradled majority of the non-mountainous lands of the land of magic into the wild alpine uplands of Shyr". Where they landed, it was colder, the air was thinner, and water was scarce. Saltwater and a seacoast became things of the past (to note, the "visual" they showed showed a Halruaa transferring with some mountains still on its exterior, but with these mountains essentially blocking them in from a seacoast). Most of their buildings and all of their roads were shattered. They found themselves in a region of wild herds of marauding predators, wyverns, perytons, and giant bats that were largely destroyed by their arrival, not in the lap of some populous sentient realm that might have made war on them and sought to enslave them. That arrival was in the Abeiran spring not in midwinter (note: check date of spellplague on Toril to see if it was in spring).
The creation of a "force web" by a large number of Halruaan elders, that then resulted in the death OR mental incapacity of 8 in 10 of their spellcasting capable populace, is known as "the Great Sacrifice". Halruaans believe that Azuth himself bolstered this magical transfer and was himself seared and diminished as a result.
The Force web spells were from the ancient Netherese archwizard "Lady Sheive Marandral" and were used by her to create "temporary flying cradles for netherese buildings rather than permanent flying cities". It required the placement of "spell nodes" within the surface ground of Halruaa to create something akin to a spider web of force surrounding the country similar in some ways to a mythal. So in essence, they were turning Halruaa's immediate surface area into something akin to a mass of flying earth. This transfer destroyed most of Halruaa's bridges which were lighter through the use of levitation spells.
The Halruaa of today is much less populous and more rural (which says something as it was already very rural). It has no army, but has militias armed with thunderwave, magic missile, and lightning bold wands. It has archlords, reclusive elders of both genders, who live in mountain caverns where they stockpile spellbooks and magic items, including automatons that can defend the realm if it's ever invaded. It has septars, local mayors who govern and who command the meager magical resources of their communities for defense and law keeping. Magic is respected now, nt trusted, and used carefully, not casually. Halruaa has renewed its mining and making Haerlu wine, and through its envoys, has dealt with the open lord Laeral in distant Waterdeep, and the High Suikh of Ormpurr. The lords of the Tashalar are much nearer to ensure steady markets for vintages.
So, in theory these septars ruling should have been established while in Abeir, as well as these archlords setting themselves up in mountainous caverns. This kind of makes me feel like the magically gifted went to these mountainous caverns to train while in Abeir... and WHY were they going there and collecting spellbooks unless they possibly KNEW they'd be going to return to Toril. It also makes me wonder if these "mountainous caverns" might not also be where these "spell nodes" had been located... which works with my idea that "weave anchors" were established in Abeir and that near them magic was much more stable and workable. So, perhaps "Halruaa" turned itself into two different populations while in Abeir, with spellholds in the surrounding mountains acting almost like the vremyonni of Rashemen. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 May 2024 : 20:10:45
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
Ah... very much good point in that I didn't think about ALL the planar shifts. The abyss was no longer in the outer planes, but rather attaching to the elemental chaos... so the inner planes. So, that can explain demonic access to Abeir starting then. Still doesn't affect the idea of a planar tear in a city that transfers maintaining that access to shattered night (it would to the hells mind you or some other place still in the). To be clear, shattered night is intended to be "a nothing place"... the place where vestiges go (and many vestiges were deities). Its not inner plane. Its not outer plane. It MIGHT be far realm. It MIGHT be where Tharizdun is trapped. Its not a place that anyone understands how to travel to, and it seems to possess the "sentience" of beings that are gone... and if a binder provides his body/mind as a conduit to these vestiges, they may share his senses to once again "feel" the real world and "somewhat exist".
On Nergal being dead... depends on the setting, but he definitely is dead in FR pre-spellplague. But he was a manifestation in FR, not tied to the outer planes. His death in FR would have zero impact elsewhere, and his revival in FR could occur even if he were dead elsewhere. He definitely COULD be a vestige.
Some notes below on Nergal since you asked (from Lost Empires of faerun), in particular to note that Nergal wasn't buried in Unther like every other Untheric deity.... his body was sent way up north near Narfell, the Rawlinswood, Dun-Tharos, etc..... Now, WHY did Gilgeam specifically not bury THIS god in his homeland?
-1071 DR The orc god Gruumsh kills the Mulhorandi deity Ra in the first known deicide. The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are also slain by orc deities.
THE STONE OF KEST
In the northern foothills of the Dragonsword Mountains stands a forgotten monument that was once known as the Stone of Kest. This obelisk stands better than 60 feet tall, and though it is somewhat weathered, the tale carved into its four surfaces is still legible. The Stone of Kest records the story of the Orcgate Wars—in particular, the roles of various Mulhorandi deities and the deaths of Untheric gods such as Nergal and Marduk. The stone is scribed in an archaic form of Mulhorandi rendered in hieroglyphs (Decipher Script DC 25).
GREAT BARROW
Just off the Great Road, near the southernmost portion of the Rawlinswood in the Great Dale, lies the Great Barrow, a massive burial mound ringed by numerous smaller mounds. The Great Barrow was built in the heady days of the First Untheric Empire as a tomb for the slain Untheric god Nergal. Gilgeam oversaw the god’s lavish burial and sealed Nergal’s still-living family and servants inside the lesser tombs surrounding that of the deity. Once all the tombs had been buried under earthen hills, Gilgeam slaughtered the builders, raised them as undead crypt things, and set them to guard Nergal and his family.
Travelers in the area of the Great Barrow often report encountering skeletal undead that choke and gasp as if desperately trying to breathe. Whether these creatures are Gilgeam’s appointed crypt-things or the restless undead remnants of Nergal’s family remains a mystery.
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 May 2024 : 03:45:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
Abeir being isolated from the Outer Planes is still a thing by the time of the Second Sundering. After all, this element is a plot point of The Devil You Know: the reason Asmodeus couldn't find the staff of Azuth was because it was hidden on Abeir.
Btw, isn't Nergal dead in D&D lore? I remember he is one of the deities listed as "Dead" in On Hallowed Ground.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees ....
Interesting analogy. It still leaves too much stuff in the air. Why Ao didn't did stuff to mitigate the death of so many bees in the SS? Sure, he may have not been in full control of the situation (though I really doubt it), but he could have mitigated things.
And I mean, mitigating damage in Toril, if we follow your idea of Ao suddenly caring about the mortals of Abeir, something he didn't did in like, millenia.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering...
He had no control at all during the Spellplague, that's pretty obvious. And confirmed by the fact that he had to start (or take advantage of, if we follow your idea) the Second Sundering to "fix" all the damage done by the Spellplague.
As for the Second Sundering, the official lore is that he started it, so he may have been in full control. Even if we follow your idea that he didn't started the SS, he still used it to "fix" stuff in Toril and Abeir, which confirms he had a lot of control over this phenomenon.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril...
A dreadful thought.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful,
My issue is not about the power of the spellcasters (there can be powerful sorcerers in Abeir following the standard lore), but more about the feeling of the setting. That's why I used Dark Sun as an example. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 22:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
quote:
I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
These "gods of magic" MAY have been helping to restore Mystra... or they may NOT have been doing so. I mean that on an individual basis. For instance, Deneir TECHNICALLY reports to Oghma... and Oghma wasn't in Abeir. Leira didn't TECHNICALLY report to anyone. Velsharoon definitely had proven that he was willing to seek power however he saw fit. Talos as Malyk (god of wild and destructive magics) actually opposed Mystra. Finder Wyvernspur as a god of bardic magic to a degree also didn't serve Mystra. Karsus had specifically tried to take her power. Now Azuth, Savras, and possibly Auppenser... these can possibly be seen as servants.
Now, I personally don't mind that idea of these gods helping to restore her enough to make magic a bit more stable (maybe not Talos/Malyk)... but technically THAT doesn't need to be detailed as these deities would have their own reasons to want mortals to have access to magic. Also... going back to that "Priests" dm's guild product.. a priest can "pray" at any idol valid for their pantheon .... so I can see these gods agreeing that "our weave anchors shall be available to all"... much like cell phone carriers allowing roaming. But possibly, if X gods weave anchor gets used, then X god gets faith energy.... so it behooves the gods themselves to get these weave anchors spread. Heck, for all we know, these gods were using Mystra's corpse to get things started and they "unintentionally" restore her enough that she can return to Toril... before they can turn on her and kill her again. Just a thought.
Now, regarding it making the world different... I have no defense here, but I also don't see a need. If one wants a world where spellcasters are less powerful, there are numerous things we CAN do... maybe the weave anchors are "faulty" ... maybe they "drain quickly"... maybe they can only support spells of certain levels based on the quality of the weave anchor. With the idea of the portable anchors/batteries, very much all of the above can be true (hell, Malyk may be offering "cheap" anchor/batteries that are prone to wild magic). The main thing though is to establish what we think are good ideas, and then bounce them about with others.... and that's what I think these discussions are helping with.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:42:15
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
Interested in discussing this MORE just because I think developing a story helps. That's what this is all about.
Here's kind of the way I see it.... we need bees .... so we care if bees are dying .... but in general, I'm not going around to make sure that noone kills a bee. If I can stop some fool from stomping a beehive without much effort... I will. Or, I might just let the bees sting the fool, because even though they are little... they can still make things hurt.
We are "bees" to Ao. We keep the world alive, pollinating things and making honey. In a not-so-great comparison, the gods are the "beekeepers" who get "honey"/"faith" from the "bees". Ao takes honey/faith from the gods, but he also harvests the "crops" that populate the world as a result of the bees efforts.
Now, how much control he may have had over the Spellplague/ Second Sundering... debatable... but once lands from Abeir have come INTO Toril... he may have had a lot more control for it leaving. Basically, I view the spellplague as much more "uncontrolled" to SOME degree... and the Second Sundering was much less invasive and controlled. So, he may have been fine with letting certain lands stay in Abeir.
Ao may have even empowered some "vestiges" that may have been getting restored on Abeir... i.e. for all we know, Enlil was being restored on Abeir. One of the things that I envision with the Planar Tear/"Shattered Night" thing is that some deities that supposedly "left" ..... may have been imprisoned as vestiges by someone like Gilgeam. Or in other words.... the story is told by the victors and may not be the truth.... so what's the true story about what happened to the Untheric gods that Gilgeam "kicked out" of Unther? Why did Gilgeam not let the body of the god Nergal get interred in Unther and instead made a tomb get created way off in the lands held by the Nar? For instance, was the manifestation of Gilgeam that went "bad" .... was he Gilgeam? Was there a being that was formerly entrapped as a vestige instead in control of his body? This idea of vestiges/planar tears/Shattered Night can open up a lot of story ideas. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 20:16:15
Yes, Abeir is closed off... until the spellplague apparently. So, the idea is "city of Peleverai along with Pit of Maleficence beneath it" transfers to Abeir... and thereby DRAGS over this planar tear with it.
The more I think on it though.... I think I actually like the idea that the bottom of the pit opens onto Erkalla... but Erkalla being a city in the Underdark which has the planar tear (and heck.... as long as we have the freedom to do it... maybe it has OTHER portals as well... it could be fun to make this city and tie it to the babylonian or Untheric pantheons. It may have even been where Nergal actually resided, since both he and Ereshkigal were said to rule the city... so if they had manifestations stuck on Toril they may have made a prime version of their underworld. Maybe they even made it from some even older city which had the planar tear that they found. Could be fun to make this history. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 23 May 2024 : 04:49:19
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
You know, I can buy the idea of Ao being the not all powerful being they want us to believe, however, it's hard to believe he was not in control of the Second Sundering when the event was so selective in what returned, specially when the things that stayed required the active participation of entities way less powerful than Ao was during the ToT (like, worship-less Enlil making Tymanther to stay).
I also don't believe Ao cares at all for mortals, but that's my belief, lol. He seems to not even regard them at all in official materials (save for these weird Elminster novels), where he seems to care more for the gods.
I also like the idea that Ao didn't created Abeir, specially after we discovered that the geography doesn't match with what we know of ancient Toril. It makes me wonder why the orbits of Toril and Abeir intersect, tho...
quote:
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"...
Oh, but by putting all of Mystra's subordinates in control, you're given her ALL the control, lol.
quote:
I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist...
I don't know. I feel it's like allowing regular clerics to exist in Dark Sun. You change one of the key concepts of this world, and with it the feeling of the setting. Just like there are no clerics in Dark Sun, the idea is that Abeir has no wizards. And yeah, you're giving them "limitations" (thought, there is really no limitation when they can carry their power source to whatever place they go), but still changes the feeling of the setting IMO.
Yeah, that would mean that poor Big Name NPC wizard is going to be an ingredient on a dragon's dinner because the setting is against him, but the same would happen if Big Name NPC cleric goes to Athas, he is going to become a practice target for the Templars. That's their fault for going to places they are not supposed to be, lol
quote:
The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
That would make sense... I'm just saying that canonically (as in, in a published product), it has been said that Abeir is closed to the Outer Planes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 20 May 2024 : 20:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals.
You destroyed my immersion here, sleyvas.  The Second Sundering that Ao started killed A LOT of mortals between all the wars, natural catastrophes and magical chaos Ao unleashed on the world, just for him to "fix" things. I don't believe he care for mortals at all.
I'm also not much of a fan of the idea of creating a Weave on Abeir. Leave that world away from Mystra's tyrannical monopoly of magic,
quote:
So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc..
Why do you have to spoil all the fun? Dragons deserve to have a good time, too
quote:
Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well?
This idea is even less appealing to me than having a Weave on Abeir, lol I prefer Cyric as a poser who was stripped of power and is not even demigod-level now.
Not to spoil the fun, but if this Erkalla place is part of the Nine Hells, then the idea may not work, as per The Devil You Know, Abeir is completely cut off of the Nine Hells, and the place has no influence in Abeir. That's why Fiendish Warlocks (ie.Farideh) and even proper devils (Lorcan) were completely powerless in Abeir, and why the Staff of Azuth was hidden there, so Asmodeus could not find it.
quote:
Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther.
Curiously enough, dragonborn names are from many Middle East cultures. Even before Erin Evans took the dragonborn under her wing, there are names like Medrash and Balasar (Jew), Tarhun (an Hittite god), Abraxus (obviously, the gnostic being), and the like.
On the Ao "causing the death of the mortals", the part that I would stress here that maybe wasn't apparent. I don't view Ao as having the control here. He knows that the world convergence is coming. He likely has a good idea of when it will occur. But he doesn't CAUSE it. I'm very much of the idea that he also didn't necessarily "create" Abeir so much as "put it to use". He also may not have much CONTROL in Abeir (i.e. he's very glad that the primordials are over there where they can't get to him ... like they almost did during the first Sundering). I'm very in favor of limiting Ao's power. So, he knows that these mortals will be shifting to Abeir. He knows he can't save them all. He knows he has an excess of gods that serve him.... and he's not afraid to send them over and possibly die in order to protect these mortals. They may even gain him a foothold there or eliminate some threats.
On the making of a weave... I don't mean "making Mystra in power and control"... I mean the "weave" in the form that its found on most other worlds... a place where regular magic can be used and the concept of a wizard may exist.... but these self same wizards may have problems if they LEAVE these areas. To note, this essentially is putting "the weave" of Abeir in the hands of a large number of different "gods of magic", and not one specific being. It would more or less resemble a power grid, with this power grid only being extended near these settlements of Torilians.
In some ways this concept would somewhat resemble the same idea as the Priests ruleset, except that the priests concept is only for memorizing spells.... these guys would have to transport their power source with them if they left these areas.
On the concept of the Pit of Maleficence having "Erkalla" at its "bottom". The statement in canon lore is that people THINK a portal to the hells lies at the bottom. I posit... maybe its different... that it would be a way to link in a link to the "Underworld" divine domain of the Babylonian Pantheon (which the Untheric people absorbed deities of this pantheon into their own, in the forms of at least Ramman and Ishtar) ... and I only mentioned that particular place because there's a reference to Cyric, that city, and Loviatar in the 2nd edition Complete Necromancer's Handbook. But, and "Underworld" ruled by various gods of death over time which ALSO has a history of people going there and "being unable to return".... very much could be a place where powerful beings get imprisoned much like Shattered Night did with vestiges.
The idea would be that city of Peleverai in the Shaar went to Abeir. The undercity of Peleverai has the Pit of Maleficence. The Pit of Maleficence contains the "path" / "portal" or whatever to Erkalla. Erkalla itself could be just an underdark cavern... or it could be a place on the other side of a portal. But then the idea would be that IT has a planar tear onto shattered night, and it was in shattered night that Gargauth had been entrapped/imprisoned as a vestige until he got released by the Cult of the Dragon.
|
| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:35:14
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well.  But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol
Noted! I love the lore, but I also love advancing the vibrancy of the realms. Despite my initial disgruntlement with the Spellplague, I kinda liked it once I got into the novels about all the freaky new places that were in the Realms. Get weird, I'm into it!
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances.
Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath...
The most emo of the emo boys. Take down the whole kingdom with your sadness. I just read it haha...dang. Those sadbois failing Arkhosia, no bueno. Turn that frown upside down or else you doom the kingdom! No big.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You got me curious here.
EDIT:
I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faerûn says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something.
Ah, well that tiny little thread gets snipped. Not to worry, perhaps the Eminence of Araunt somehow made contact...I imagine there are a fair number of portals in that area. |
| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 09:18:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to more info on Narathmault.... There is KIND of lore that comes AFTER Narathmault fell. Because it BECAME Dun-Tharos, the various lore about Narfell and the histories about demon lords related to Narfell, Eltab, etc... can all be somewhat linked back to the region. Furthermore, if we say "demoncysts" can be linked to it as well, the the lore on Eltab MIGHT prove useful.
Duly noted. Will spiff up my Dun-Tharos knowledge.
quote:
Oh, also, given that Lhoraun is mentioned with "wizards in towers and flying ships".... I feel its pretty safe to say that Ed is hinting that Halruaa ended up on Lhoraun.
Hate to burst that bubble but Ed also put out an article called Halruaa Today that specifically states the Halruaa ended up in a sheltered alpine region of Shyr. Copied below -
"And they managed it: the Halruaan elders worked the mightiest magic of their lives, plucking their realm out of Toril and into Abeir—specifically, the wild alpine uplands of one of the largest continents of Abeir, Shyr—planeshifting a forceweb-cradled majority of the non-mountainous lands of the Land of Magic."
So this places Halruaa firmly in Shyr. Lhoraun...maybe Nimbral? I don't recall that we had any canon information on where they went during the Spellplague. Could also be another realm of Netherese-descent. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 04:05:11
quote:
Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes
Zeromaru X, thank you for chiming in. Glad to see you active on the Discord for Ed too!
I get bored quickly, so I like to talk there as well. But as you'll notice sooner or later, I prefer a more modern take in fantasy, that may be at odds with people who likes the traditional D&D lore sometimes, lol
quote:
Methinks that the amaunors are about in Abeir...Also a whole ass KINGDOM of psionicists (Jhaamdaath) was wiped out and not a single one was a precog? Smells fishy...or sea elfy...
If you have access to the Psionic Power sourcebook, it has a story about how bad can be to have people with psionic powers for the defense of a kingdom. Page 6 has the tale of a dragonborn city that fell to an orc attack because the dragonborn "ardents" (empaths) got depressed after a princess died and their sadness "infected" the other dragonborn leaders and soldiers, making them fail against a force they would have defeated in normal circumstances.
Perhaps something similar happened to Jhaamdaath...
quote:
I also posit that the Jhaamdathan kingdom could have been removed to Abeir. It is said that the First City, Dinnilith, phased in and out of existence. I'll have to check back in on Lost Empires of Faerun for the exact passage. If anyone else has it, please share along.
You got me curious here.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals.
You destroyed my immersion here, sleyvas. The Second Sundering that Ao started killed A LOT of mortals between all the wars, natural catastrophes and magical chaos Ao unleashed on the world, just for him to "fix" things. I don't believe he care for mortals at all.
I'm also not much of a fan of the idea of creating a Weave on Abeir. Leave that world away from Mystra's tyrannical monopoly of magic,
quote:
So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc..
Why do you have to spoil all the fun? Dragons deserve to have a good time, too
quote:
Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well?
This idea is even less appealing to me than having a Weave on Abeir, lol I prefer Cyric as a poser who was stripped of power and is not even demigod-level now.
Not to spoil the fun, but if this Erkalla place is part of the Nine Hells, then the idea may not work, as per The Devil You Know, Abeir is completely cut off of the Nine Hells, and the place has no influence in Abeir. That's why Fiendish Warlocks (ie.Farideh) and even proper devils (Lorcan) were completely powerless in Abeir, and why the Staff of Azuth was hidden there, so Asmodeus could not find it.
quote:
Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther.
Curiously enough, dragonborn names are from many Middle East cultures. Even before Erin Evans took the dragonborn under her wing, there are names like Medrash and Balasar (Jew), Tarhun (an Hittite god), Abraxus (obviously, the gnostic being), and the like.
EDIT:
I read about Dinnilith. While it's true that the place vanished during the catastrophe, I doubt it survived it. Lost Empires of Faerûn says the place is full of an undead thing that reminds me of the mist of Shadar Logoth (from the Wheel of Time), and the place may not even be physical, but a psychic impression or something. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 02:18:10
As to more info on Narathmault.... There is KIND of lore that comes AFTER Narathmault fell. Because it BECAME Dun-Tharos, the various lore about Narfell and the histories about demon lords related to Narfell, Eltab, etc... can all be somewhat linked back to the region. Furthermore, if we say "demoncysts" can be linked to it as well, the the lore on Eltab MIGHT prove useful.
Oh, also, given that Lhoraun is mentioned with "wizards in towers and flying ships".... I feel its pretty safe to say that Ed is hinting that Halruaa ended up on Lhoraun. |
| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 01:57:59
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes
Ok and also these are two things I also forgot -
Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir...
Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not.
On the drow and the "Queen of Chaos", it should be noted that SEVERAL beings can claim that title. One of those is Lolth. However, Tiamat is also referred to as the Queen of Chaos specifically in Unther per Powers and Pantheons pg 104. There's also other "Queens of Chaos" including an abyssal lord.
Lolth has the title the Weaver of Chaos, but not seeing her called the Queen of Chaos, at least in Demihuman Deities. Tiamat is an interesting choice, but unlikely to patronize drow coming from Toril to Abeir...the only other Queen of Chaos is the obyrith queen of the 14th layer of the Abyss - the Steaming Fen.
quote:
Personally, I'd link the Narren drow with the illythiiri of Narathmault (future Dun-Tharos, capital of Narfell). To note, the "demoncysts" that run throughout the Unapproachable East may have "crossed over" into Abeir... merging portions of "the Hidden Layer" of the Abyss not only with Toril, but also with Abeir.
To note, this could allow for links as well to Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" .... if perhaps periodically the portals "fritzed" and dump dark elves in Abeir. I've always pictured that those dark elves likely came from Narathmault originally.
This tracks in how/why they would be called the Narren drow and potentially why it's called the Nardark if it's stuffed full of demonic evils! I'm into it. Anywhere that you can find a bit of Narathmault lore aside from the Grand History of the Realms? The portal glitching would incorporate well with what we know about some of the inter-planar travel between Abeir + Toril outside of the Spellplague. Considering the Elemental Chaos of 4E and the alteration of the cosmology of the Realms brought together bits from Abeir + Toril before separating again, it makes sense that other planes that are adjacent to both, like the Abyss, would see a similar admixture. |
| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 18 May 2024 : 01:25:27
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed, Ed definitely is NOT against the concept of there being "gods" in Abeir. I would also stress that maybe CLERICS did not exist in Abeir, and noting that the spells of clerics in Toril does appear to be "aided" by use of the weave or its equivalent elsewhere. This is why one of the things I proposed is that for Abeir, we actually adopt that some optional DM's Guild rules that were recommended by WotC themselves be adapted for divine casters. What rules? https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess. These rules basically make priests that HAVE to sacrifice in some way to get their spells. They have to receive/prepare their spells before a holy idol of their god. At lower levels this holy idol can be as small as a holy symbol, but as the spell level goes up, you may need an idol the size of a wagon or a small house. They also get some abilities that they can modify their idols with (one really nice one that you only get at higher levels is enabling your idol to work like a construct). So, this becomes a very very limiting factor for priests going adventuring, since they'd have to pretty much leave each day to renew spells once they are getting decent spells. Plus, the sacrifices... they're steep (I personally wouldn't make them so harsh), so renewing your spells isn't just "hey god, I'm here, give me spells". There would be no "joe blow needs a cure light wounds because a dog bit him". But, even with these very strict/harsh rules, I could definitely see people becoming priests.
Interesting! I definitely will have to check this document out. I would agree that clerics + organized religion are unlikely to be taking place on the majority of the places we know of in Abeir...at least openly organized religion.
quote:
Part of the storyline I'd been writing up had the gods essentially working through mortals which would agree to share their bodies... like the avatars which were in existence during the ToT (which are definitely weaker than standard avatars, but still powerful). However, the general idea of the 3.5e binder, wherein a person hosts a "vestige" or "spirit" of a very powerful being trapped in "the place where vestiges exist".... it very much might fit how gods started to return to the world. To that end, under 5e rules, I've made an adaptation of the binder as a variant of a warlock. It might also be that some individuals were granted the power to "bind" a specific vestige of a god, and over the last hundred years these beings went from being "vestiges with little control of their host granting minor power" to "lesser avatars able to share serious control of a mortal body and grant more power" to "creating manifestations of their divine self similar to the gods of Mulhorand and Unther prior to the ToT" to "full fledged avatars no longer prime bound, but still in a body" and finally "deific beings like they were on Toril". Not all deities would have ascended fully, and some may have never left vestige degree.
I really dig this take and it dovetails well with what I've been thinking recently. You nailed what I've been trying to land on.
quote:
Why were they there? Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals. He ALSO may have wanted gods to go there and challenge the primordials because they are an actual threat TO HIM. So, the gods sent there may have also been his cannon fodder. He also may have specifically wanted lesser "gods of magic" there to help setup something of a weave... by getting people to worship, use that worship to enhance "sacrificed objects", and turning those "sacrificed objects full of faith energy" into weave anchors. Then the gods would have their servitors (i.e. adventurers, priests, and lay worshippers ) place these sacrifices at certain locations via visions. While the GODS understood what they were doing... MORTALS did not.... but over time magic became more and more stable, and they attributed it to worshipping the gods of magic... which was true.
There are some Faerunian artifacts hidden on Abeir, according to The Devil You Know and what Somni, one of the Mash-en-li, says when they're discussing the location of the Staff of Azuth. "...one at where the Greenfields lay, one near the center of Tymanther's open plain, and one high in the mountains. She tapped the last of them," that last being the Staff. So we have at least 2 unknown relics of Faerunian origin in Abeir around Tymanther. The one amid the plains is "the ruins of stone tower, which none dare breach" and the one at the Greenfields "is a pit that drops down into the heart of the plane, from which a song that never ceases echoes," so these two could easily be divine artifacts designed to rest where deities crossing into Abeir might find them, thus increasing their deific energies and powers without coming into the plane shining like a beacon for sleeping primordials to waken to.
quote:
But Ed has also said that people travelling there would have problems even remotely learning how to do even the most basic spell. Its documented several times in these tweets. So, taking that into account, what if we somewhat take a page from what happened on Toril with Szass Tam. He summoned Bane and arranged an agreement in exchange for knowledge of how to cast spells. Well... what if a lot of the people who were transferred learned how to "bind" a vestige of some god of magic (i.e. Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Malyk aka Talos, Karsus, Deneir as a god or runes, scrolls, and "spellbooks", a being who may have been the Red Knight OR another goddess like Sif posing as the Red Knight as "god of spell tactics", and maybe even Finder Wyvernspur posing as a god of bardic magic)? Then perhaps these being might arrange a similar exchange of "You can share my body in exchange for knowledge of how to adapt my magic to this world". Now, I'm not saying "instantly having the same power they did before".... but also not "former archmage who is now a mewling weakling unable to cast a light cantrip". Some spellcasters who may have gone somewhat senile may have even had their mental infirmness CURED through sharing their mind with a god/vestige.
Again, why do this? So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc.. that were there. To make this exchange a somewhat positive thing and not entirely negative. To also try and make a fun story for what these places are like when they return.
I imagine that there is more reliance on the natural, innate magics that occur when interacting with primordials + dragons that would have been prevalent in Abeiran society (i.e. the swordmages / dragonfire adepts / binders etc) over a seeking out of what Torilians know as arcane magics. Not ever having had access to the Weave of magic that we know on Toril, they've instead found alternative methods of casting + channeling magic.
quote:
So, throwing out some theories on some things that MIGHT have occurred
Deneir, sensing the death of Mystra and collapsing of her divine domain of Dweomerheart, drew upon the greatest power of runes/glyphs available to him.... the mysterious runes inscribed on the interior shell of the crystal sphere itself. This sent a shockwave through the phlogiston and affected numerous other crystal spheres. It also stopped all spelljamming into realmspace because... the crystal sphere was no longer around realmspace, and "realmspace" became simply another "wildspace system" connected to the astral. But in doing so, he was able to transfer Dweomerheart (along with several other divine domains of other deities) from being attached to "realmspace" and instead being attached to "Abeir".
Mask and Leira (longer story, but I got ideas about Leira and her true involvement with Cyric) work together to steal the Karse Stone from Shar just prior to the spellplague. They end up in Abeir.
Tyr, Helm, Lathander, and other "dead" deities during the spellplague end up in Abeir as well, sometimes under other names of other pantheons (such as Anachtar, Hemdahl, and Faerthandir of the Metahel pantheon). Some other deities of OTHER pantheons may have posed as Faerunian deities of similar portfolios as well for the worship energy.
Hmmmm this feels good. I like the direction.
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Several places of power in Faerun may have also transferred to Abeir (for instance, the "Ship of the Gods" island between Mulhorand and Unther... a huge swathe of the Shaar, including the Cliffside ruined city of Peleverai with its "Pit of Maleficence" in the tunnels connected to the city. The gods send adventurers via various methods off to find divine artifacts connected to them, and these divine artifacts find their way back to these places of great power, and the divine energy of these artifacts are used to re-empower the deities.
Oooooo didn't know about this PoM, definitely going to look into it. I'm also not wildly familiar with the Shaar pre-Sundering, so will have to brush up on that. There's a lot of interchange around plaguelands + Abeir / Toril swapping...perhaps based on portals + gateways that existed that few knew of?
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In the case of the "Pit of Maleficence" it is rumored to open a gate to the hells. AS AN OPTION, perhaps what it opens into is another divine domain. Erkalla is referenced in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook with Loviatar coming there to negotiate with Cyric for the release of "her sister". Cyric agrees, but says that "she must return every winter". There is no clarity on who "her sister" is.
This is similar to the "real world" story of Inanna coming to Erkalla to visit her sister Ereshkigal (goddess of the underworld) to attend the funeral rites of her brother in law Gugalanna "the Bull of Heaven" (Ereshkigal's now dead husband). Ereshkigal's husband is dead because Inanna hit on Gilgamesh, was turned down and jeered, and so she sic'd Gugalanna to attack Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh killed Gugalanna. So, Ereshkigal is rightly p.o.'d at her sister and agrees to let her in the city if she strips down all her regalia of power, and then she promptly has her judges call Inanna guilty and kill her. Ereshkigal then hangs the dead body of her sister goddess in her courtroom, until the other gods send someone to rescue her.... and Ereshkigal agrees to free Inanna if someone will be sent to take her place. Inanna returns to the surface and finds her lover Dumuzi not mourning her, so in a fit of rage decides to send him to Erkalla to take her place. Dumuzi's sister (a goddess of vegetation and fertility) offers to take over half of this sentence, and thus we have winter.
Dumuzi eh? Interesting choice Erin made then with the name of Dumuzi Kepeshmolik as the emissary of Enlil in Tymanther.
quote:
So, what if the Pit of Maleficence opens onto the actual Erkalla, which later was ruled over by Ereshkigal and her NEW husband Nergal. What if Erkalla, similar to Dungeon 148's well of darkness module, is a plane that opens onto Shattered Night via a similar planar tear (even that module states that similar planar tears exist outside the abyss). Maybe powerful beings were entrapped in Erkalla as vestiges (to note, the Pit of Maleficence IS where Gargauth was trapped). Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well? What if Velsharoon, in his search for information about the divine and vestiges, had in fact learned of Erkalla's secrets and part of his time in Abeir was spent restoring his fellow godlings by bringing divine artifacts for them to "absorb" or possibly even "inhabit" as a means to escape the place where vestiges go. Or what if Gargauth was arranging to restore gods in a similar way in return for "divine favors" in the future.
All this seems and feels really sound to me. I dig it! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 22:53:07
quote:
Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes
Ok and also these are two things I also forgot -
Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir...
Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not.
On the drow and the "Queen of Chaos", it should be noted that SEVERAL beings can claim that title. One of those is Lolth. However, Tiamat is also referred to as the Queen of Chaos specifically in Unther per Powers and Pantheons pg 104. There's also other "Queens of Chaos" including an abyssal lord.
Personally, I'd link the Narren drow with the illythiiri of Narathmault (future Dun-Tharos, capital of Narfell). To note, the "demoncysts" that run throughout the Unapproachable East may have "crossed over" into Abeir... merging portions of "the Hidden Layer" of the Abyss not only with Toril, but also with Abeir.
To note, this could allow for links as well to Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" .... if perhaps periodically the portals "fritzed" and dump dark elves in Abeir. I've always pictured that those dark elves likely came from Narathmault originally. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 22:28:50
Agreed, Ed definitely is NOT against the concept of there being "gods" in Abeir. I would also stress that maybe CLERICS did not exist in Abeir, and noting that the spells of clerics in Toril does appear to be "aided" by use of the weave or its equivalent elsewhere. This is why one of the things I proposed is that for Abeir, we actually adopt that some optional DM's Guild rules that were recommended by WotC themselves be adapted for divine casters. What rules? https://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess. These rules basically make priests that HAVE to sacrifice in some way to get their spells. They have to receive/prepare their spells before a holy idol of their god. At lower levels this holy idol can be as small as a holy symbol, but as the spell level goes up, you may need an idol the size of a wagon or a small house. They also get some abilities that they can modify their idols with (one really nice one that you only get at higher levels is enabling your idol to work like a construct). So, this becomes a very very limiting factor for priests going adventuring, since they'd have to pretty much leave each day to renew spells once they are getting decent spells. Plus, the sacrifices... they're steep (I personally wouldn't make them so harsh), so renewing your spells isn't just "hey god, I'm here, give me spells". There would be no "joe blow needs a cure light wounds because a dog bit him". But, even with these very strict/harsh rules, I could definitely see people becoming priests.
Part of the storyline I'd been writing up had the gods essentially working through mortals which would agree to share their bodies... like the avatars which were in existence during the ToT (which are definitely weaker than standard avatars, but still powerful). However, the general idea of the 3.5e binder, wherein a person hosts a "vestige" or "spirit" of a very powerful being trapped in "the place where vestiges exist".... it very much might fit how gods started to return to the world. To that end, under 5e rules, I've made an adaptation of the binder as a variant of a warlock. It might also be that some individuals were granted the power to "bind" a specific vestige of a god, and over the last hundred years these beings went from being "vestiges with little control of their host granting minor power" to "lesser avatars able to share serious control of a mortal body and grant more power" to "creating manifestations of their divine self similar to the gods of Mulhorand and Unther prior to the ToT" to "full fledged avatars no longer prime bound, but still in a body" and finally "deific beings like they were on Toril". Not all deities would have ascended fully, and some may have never left vestige degree.
Why were they there? Because Ao knew this convergence of worlds would happen. He required gods to go to Abeir to protect mortals. He ALSO may have wanted gods to go there and challenge the primordials because they are an actual threat TO HIM. So, the gods sent there may have also been his cannon fodder. He also may have specifically wanted lesser "gods of magic" there to help setup something of a weave... by getting people to worship, use that worship to enhance "sacrificed objects", and turning those "sacrificed objects full of faith energy" into weave anchors. Then the gods would have their servitors (i.e. adventurers, priests, and lay worshippers ) place these sacrifices at certain locations via visions. While the GODS understood what they were doing... MORTALS did not.... but over time magic became more and more stable, and they attributed it to worshipping the gods of magic... which was true.
But Ed has also said that people travelling there would have problems even remotely learning how to do even the most basic spell. Its documented several times in these tweets. So, taking that into account, what if we somewhat take a page from what happened on Toril with Szass Tam. He summoned Bane and arranged an agreement in exchange for knowledge of how to cast spells. Well... what if a lot of the people who were transferred learned how to "bind" a vestige of some god of magic (i.e. Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Leira, Malyk aka Talos, Karsus, Deneir as a god or runes, scrolls, and "spellbooks", a being who may have been the Red Knight OR another goddess like Sif posing as the Red Knight as "god of spell tactics", and maybe even Finder Wyvernspur posing as a god of bardic magic)? Then perhaps these being might arrange a similar exchange of "You can share my body in exchange for knowledge of how to adapt my magic to this world". Now, I'm not saying "instantly having the same power they did before".... but also not "former archmage who is now a mewling weakling unable to cast a light cantrip".
Again, why do this? So that the people that went to Abeir aren't just prey for the dragon overlords, armies of primordial lords, abolethic sovereignty, etc.. that were there. To make this exchange a somewhat positive thing and not entirely negative. To also try and make a fun story for what these places are like when they return.
At the same time, we have from Ed that Halruaa suffered most mightily from their transfer, so why would they be worse than other areas.... but one might wonder if that might not be from having so MUCH magic to go asunder that their society literally fell apart. So places that were less magic dependent... may have adapted faster.
So, throwing out some theories on some things that MIGHT have occurred
Deneir, sensing the death of Mystra and collapsing of her divine domain of Dweomerheart, drew upon the greatest power of runes/glyphs available to him.... the mysterious runes inscribed on the interior shell of the crystal sphere itself. This sent a shockwave through the phlogiston and affected numerous other crystal spheres. It also stopped all spelljamming into realmspace because... the crystal sphere was no longer around realmspace, and "realmspace" became simply another "wildspace system" connected to the astral. But in doing so, he was able to transfer Dweomerheart (along with several other divine domains of other deities) from being attached to "realmspace" and instead being attached to "Abeir".
Mask and Leira (longer story, but I got ideas about Leira and her true involvement with Cyric) work together to steal the Karse Stone from Shar just prior to the spellplague. They end up in Abeir.
Tyr, Helm, Lathander, and other "dead" deities during the spellplague end up in Abeir as well, sometimes under other names of other pantheons (such as Anachtar, Hemdahl, and Faerthandir of the Metahel pantheon). Some other deities of OTHER pantheons may have posed as Faerunian deities of similar portfolios as well for the worship energy.
Several places of power in Faerun may have also transferred to Abeir (for instance, the "Ship of the Gods" island between Mulhorand and Unther... a huge swathe of the Shaar, including the Cliffside ruined city of Peleverai with its "Pit of Maleficence" in the tunnels connected to the city. The gods send adventurers via various methods off to find divine artifacts connected to them, and these divine artifacts find their way back to these places of great power, and the divine energy of these artifacts are used to re-empower the deities.
In the case of the "Pit of Maleficence" it is rumored to open a gate to the hells. AS AN OPTION, perhaps what it opens into is another divine domain. Erkalla is referenced in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook with Loviatar coming there to negotiate with Cyric for the release of "her sister". Cyric agrees, but says that "she must return every winter". There is no clarity on who "her sister" is.
This is similar to the "real world" story of Inanna coming to Erkalla to visit her sister Ereshkigal (goddess of the underworld) to attend the funeral rites of her brother in law Gugalanna "the Bull of Heaven" (Ereshkigal's now dead husband). Ereshkigal's husband is dead because Inanna hit on Gilgamesh, was turned down and jeered, and so she sic'd Gugalanna to attack Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh killed Gugalanna. So, Ereshkigal is rightly p.o.'d at her sister and agrees to let her in the city if she strips down all her regalia of power, and then she promptly has her judges call Inanna guilty and kill her. Ereshkigal then hangs the dead body of her sister goddess in her courtroom, until the other gods send someone to rescue her.... and Ereshkigal agrees to free Inanna if someone will be sent to take her place. Inanna returns to the surface and finds her lover Dumuzi not mourning her, so in a fit of rage decides to send him to Erkalla to take her place. Dumuzi's sister (a goddess of vegetation and fertility) offers to take over half of this sentence, and thus we have winter.
So, what if the Pit of Maleficence opens onto the actual Erkalla, which later was ruled over by Ereshkigal and her NEW husband Nergal. What if Erkalla, similar to Dungeon 148's well of darkness module, is a plane that opens onto Shattered Night via a similar planar tear (even that module states that similar planar tears exist outside the abyss). Maybe powerful beings were entrapped in Erkalla as vestiges (to note, the Pit of Maleficence IS where Gargauth was trapped). Consequently, what if Cyric were in fact trapped in there after the spellplague as well? What if Velsharoon, in his search for information about the divine and vestiges, had in fact learned of Erkalla's secrets and part of his time in Abeir was spent restoring his fellow godlings by bringing divine artifacts for them to "absorb" or possibly even "inhabit" as a means to escape the place where vestiges go. Or what if Gargauth was arranging to restore gods in a similar way in return for "divine favors" in the future.
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| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 17:16:58
Zeromaru X, thank you for chiming in. Glad to see you active on the Discord for Ed too!
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Just to add stuff about magic, dragonborn sorcerers were a thing in old Tymanchebar, as dragonborn warriors known as "dragonfoes" used their innate magic powers to protect Tymanchebar from dragon attacks (they were a multiclass of barbarian+sorcerers; see the Dragonfoe Ragespell paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379), meaning that sorcerers (or at least, draconic sorcerers) are a thing in Abeir. Likewise, the Anarchs of Shyr are an order of swordmages (eldritch knights, in 5e parlance) that operates out of Shyr (see the Anarch of Shyr paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.47), and in the past an specific order of shamans mixed their "primal" (druidic) magic with the practices of the swordmages to create an order of "spiritblades" (see the Shyran Spiritblade paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379).
I definitely need to refresh myself on these, been a minute since I did a dive back into the 4e Laerakond lore. There were a few articles in Dragon + Dungeon Magazine that delve into Gontal and Tarmalune too IIRC. Thankee kindly for lighting this particular fire under my arse!
quote:
Likewise, there is this mysterious blessing in the Steelsky of Abeir that gives people divine-like spells if they are fighting against dragons or elementals (see the Steelksky Liberator paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.65). It's possible this blessing may be the origin of Halagothra's powers (she is an old woman who lives in Tarmalune, and has the ability to cast healing spells even if she is not a cleric. She is mentioned in the Tarmalune section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide). Halagothra's existence implies there is people in Abeir able to cast healing spells, even if such individuals are rare.
I believe Halagothra also plays a significant role in the few RPGA/LFR adventures that take place in Laerakond, alongside good ole Blazing Rorn, right? The steelsky is also a really intriguing feature. Dragonheirs are also SO COOL  . Got a whole short story in Realms of the Dead that gives us some fun snippets of lore on those folks. I wonder if Ed is NDA bound on any bits about them...
quote:
Psionic powers are also a thing in Abeir, according to the Realmslore about psionics in the Psionic Power sourcebook (4e). The exact origins of psionic powers on Abeir are a mystery, and that section mentions many theories about this.
Definitely need to re-read the 4e Psionic Power, it's been a minute. I did find a preeeeetty interesting little tidbit about psionics when digging around in the Grotto that could be a part of fleshing out Abeir - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24782&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=amaunor
Methinks that the amaunors are about in Abeir...Also a whole ass KINGDOM of psionicists (Jhaamdaath) was wiped out and not a single one was a precog? Smells fishy...or sea elfy...
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
On opinion on Psioinics
Jenzar El — 02/24/2023 9:00 AM
@Ed Greenwood just a random question, whats your opinion on Psioinics? It's my favorite thing in the realms. I feel 2E was tough to understand but I love it in 3.5E. Was Psionics in your early version of the realms or was this something added in later?
Ed Greenwood — 02/25/2023 2:28 AM
The game rules of psionics (which kept changing, and which at one time TSR even wanted to pull out into its own game that could be played alongside D&D) were added into the Realms later, but it was in the Realms from the beginning (before D&D existed), as "amauna" or "mind-magic."
5eForechecker (Ruf) — 02/25/2023 3:31 AM
Okay, it CANT be a coincidence that word “amauna” is the same as the beginning of Amaunator, can it?
Friend Ed, can you speak to the connection there?
Ed Greenwood — 02/25/2023 11:26 AM
You're right, it can't. ;} Ahem, NDA mumble mumble Second NDA mumble mumble elevenses mumble...
George Krashos — 02/25/2023 7:07 AM
Realmswise, would this be a Jhaamdathi/Thorass word that has now moved into Common territory? Also, would a psionicist be an “amaunor”?
Ed Greenwood — 02/25/2023 11:29 AM
Yes, and yes to "amaunor."
I also posit that the Jhaamdathan kingdom could have been removed to Abeir. It is said that the First City, Dinnilith, phased in and out of existence. I'll have to check back in on Lost Empires of Faerun for the exact passage. If anyone else has it, please share along.
quote:
Also, there is a mention to "living spells" in Rhaurok (in Laerakond), in the section about Skelkor in the FRCG. I don't know exactly what "living spells" are in the context of the Forgotten Realms, as I only know the Eberron ones, but I guess they are a thing in Abeir as well.
As for living spells, see the combat scene set in Abeir (the only one in novel print I believe!) in The Devil You Know for how living spells could potentially work. Think like...Contra power-ups but for the bad guys too if disturbed. I liked the vibe they gave the battle.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 12:49:45
To note, healing spells are not exclusive to divine casters. Bards in 3e/3.5e could cast healing spells using "arcane" magic (I put it in quotes as I've always felt that the division into two forms of magic was wrong, though it did make it simpler from a mechanical perspective to multiclass with prestige classes in 3.5e... so for that purpose I appreciate it). The main thing to bardic magic being arcane in my book is that it's a "developed" form of magic like wizardry (as in people experiment and MAKE new bardic spells just like wizards do). In 5e it's the same... not sure offhand of 4e, but I think it was true there as well. From this we can make some presumptions... options listed below that appear to my mind
A) Abeirans haven't discovered or can't do bardic magic (preferred no... too limiting)
B) the dragonborn of Laerakond haven't discovered bardic magic (again, preferred no... but possibly it was discouraged by their dragon overlords and is thus rarer)
C) Bards of Laerakond haven't discovered these particular bardic spells, primarily because they had never seen other healing magic to "modify" from. In other words, bards on other worlds probably watched divine spellcasters work, understood SOME of what they were doing, and experimented to duplicate the effect. I specify bards of Laerakond, because other parts of the world MAY have bards that heal and just the dragonborn of Laerakond have never seen this. (I prefer this answer).
On "living spells" the realms essentially has the same thing, prior to Eberron even, specifically in Rashemen near ruins of the Raumathari. Some notes below from Unapproachable East call them "spell wards" but it specifically notes them to seem to be "spells given life". Similar to Eberron's instance as well they appear to be near some ruins that may have been near a battlefield AND they appear to be somewhere where "magitech" was in play. This very much lends to Wooly's suppositions that beings akin to warforged (i.e. living constructs) may have been being developed in this area ... especially since it appears that what went awry became a form of "living" magic.
pg 128
In addition to its native spirits, Rashemen features many old sites of battle between the dead warring nations, and from time to time dormant spells are awakened, rocking the land with earthquakes, freakish storms, and strange monsters. Fortunately, most of these battlefields are in the northern, less populated reaches of the country.
pg 134 - section The North Country
The most famous ruin is the Ring of Gray Flames, a circle of five narrow towers, each with a harsh gray fire burning atop it. The flame emits only a feeble light but disrupts divine magic brought near it. Occasionally, grinding noises can be heard within the two intact towers. The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life.
Finally, after seeing Ed's responses to some of my ideas yesterday... my mind has gone back to them and I'm intrigued to figure out HOW to implement some of my ideas. I'm going to start another response to focus just on that idea though, so that people's replies can be cleaner. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 02:38:20
Just to add stuff about magic, dragonborn sorcerers were a thing in old Tymanchebar, as dragonborn warriors known as "dragonfoes" used their innate magic powers to protect Tymanchebar from dragon attacks (they were a multiclass of barbarian+sorcerers; see the Dragonfoe Ragespell paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379), meaning that sorcerers (or at least, draconic sorcerers) are a thing in Abeir. Likewise, the Anarchs of Shyr are an order of swordmages (eldritch knights, in 5e parlance) that operates out of Shyr (see the Anarch of Shyr paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.47), and in the past an specific order of shamans mixed their "primal" (druidic) magic with the practices of the swordmages to create an order of "spiritblades" (see the Shyran Spiritblade paragon path in "Adventurers of the Realms: Displaced Lands and Dire Frontiers", Dragon 379).
Likewise, there is this mysterious blessing in the Steelsky of Abeir that gives people divine-like spells if they are fighting against dragons or elementals (see the Steelksky Liberator paragon path in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, p.65). It's possible this blessing may be the origin of Halagothra's powers (she is an old woman who lives in Tarmalune, and has the ability to cast healing spells even if she is not a cleric. She is mentioned in the Tarmalune section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide). Halagothra's existence implies there is people in Abeir able to cast healing spells, even if such individuals are rare.
Psionic powers are also a thing in Abeir, according to the Realmslore about psionics in the Psionic Power sourcebook (4e). The exact origins of psionic powers on Abeir are a mystery, and that section mentions many theories about this.
Also, there is a mention to "living spells" in Rhaurok (in Laerakond), in the section about Skelkor in the FRCG. I don't know exactly what "living spells" are in the context of the Forgotten Realms, as I only know the Eberron ones, but I guess they are a thing in Abeir as well. |
| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 01:08:05
Ok and also these are two things I also forgot -
Drow - worshippers of the Queen of Chaos in Abeir (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Queen_of_Chaos) rather than the Queen of Spiders. How'd they get there if there aren't any elves? We've got the Tearfall happening around -31,000 DR , then the high magic of the elves tearing the world asunder in -17.600 DR, but the descent of the drow isn't until the high magic ritual around -10,000 DR or so right? So, they either went over at some point after that and somehow the Queen of Chaos either used the same move as Wendonai to corrupt a bunch of Ilithyyri so she had her own little pet drow in the deeps of Abeir...
Shalarin + Ocean Portals - I coulda sworn I saw something somewhere about there being a connection between the shalarin + portals to Abeir (probably this thread - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22079). Since shalarin living in the Sea of Corynactis were buddies with Dagon, ANOTHER demon lord, it stands to reason that they might be active in Abeir and Toril both, knowing that the lords of the Abyss have access to Abeir in ways that deities do not.
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| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 17 May 2024 : 00:37:45
I've been pondering on some of the lore as it pertains to this topic while perusing the forums for some snippets and was thinking about the Sundering and what bits of Toril got displaced to Abeir and how that information might give us more insight into some of the other areas in Abeir. There are a few places that instantly spring to mind that have been touched upon. Areas to consider -
Mulhorand - some areas of this part of the realms may have been chucked onto the continent of Shyr alongside Unther (find the DMs Guild sourcebook here - https://www.dmsguild.com/product/458929/Mulhorand-Campaign-Guide) where it notes some of the people of Mulhorand lived in Abeir. The Devil You Know specifically outlines the relationship of Mulhorandi slavery to the Shyran forces.
Unther - the being known as the Son of Victory / King of Dust led the Untheric people of Abeir in revolt against the 'tyrants of Shyr' before being transported back to Toril through the machinations of Graz'zt (as per the books Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know by Erin M. Evans and a great synopsis found here - http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21817 which I see you've been in on sleyvas!) during the Second Sundering. They were transported back when attacking a "walled city of genasi slavers," and Farideh does note that the area she is shown where three relics in Abeir but not OF Abeir - one of which is the Staff of Azuth. We also get introduced the Mash-en-li, a tribe of stone giants from Abeir that wield strange dream magics based off of runic tattos/carvings into their flesh. We also learn of draumrting's, amulets that echo magical abilities.
Maztica - we know that Maztica disappeared from Toril, but it did not reappear in the same area of the planet based on the latest information we have on Abeir (or at least was undiscovered if so!)
Plaguewrought Lands - it is suggested that the plaguelands could hold portals to Abeir.
Halruaa - we know from Ed that Halruaa was sent to Abeir, most of its magics broken and shattered during the Sundering. The intense breakdown in their society from reliance on magics created a new Halruaan mindset that relied far less on their magics in the new world of Abeir and it's Weave-less state.
A couple of hypothesizing notes/ramblings -
Magic - we know that magic DOES work on Abeir, it's just not accessible through the conduit of the Weave. Dream magic, magical items, elemental + innate magics etc. There is also the area of Lhoraun mentioned with some wizard buddies flying around.
Deities - while we were initially led to believe that gods did NOT exist there, that may not be entirely true. They certainly aren't mucking around like they have been in Toril, but Ed did refute the idea that gods do not have any influence in Abeir.
Demons + Devils - seems like demons have access to Abeir, but not devils? Graz'zt's bargain with Gilgeam + the maurezhi sent to assassinate the Vanquisher before their return to Toril would indicate ole G-Six-Fingers had known the Second Sundering was coming.
Just a couple of things I was chewing on, wanted to put them out as food for thought. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 21:50:51
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1089624714606186496Mimuay Tavai, a lesser avatar of Velsharoon on Abeir
Wait.... what the heck??? I never saw this and its about what I created for the United Tharchs. You just made me recreate my twitter account so that I could read this.
Hmmm, just in case I have to come back later, I'm drilling in and copying the whole conversation here
Holy cow .... I LOVE THIS .... Ed just basically enabled my concepts that I was working on, and I didn't even know it for the last 4 years.
Matthew Dawkins - RPG Developer
And I'm not done with you yet! I was always a big fan of Lynn Abbey's treatment of Thay and Aglarond in The Simbul's Gift. She particularly added excellent detail to the characters of the Simbul and Lauzoril. The Simbul granted Lauzoril the ability to call out her true name to request aid at any point. As the timeline has now moved on and I suspect we shan't see Lauzoril or his family again, could you shed some light on when / if Lauzoril ever called in this favour prior to his assumed demise at the hands of Szass Tam and a very steep drop? It would provide closure to a plot line set up in the mid '90s and a character I really enjoyed reading about. Additionally, anything you have to say on Lauzoril's family, his daughter, etc. and if they made it out of Thay would be excellent.
Ed Greenwood
I, too, loved what Lynn did in THE SIMBUL’S GIFT. Certain things are still NDA’d, despite (as you rightly point out) the timeline having moved on, so I have to tongue-tread carefully here, but let’s just say that Lauzoril had… …ALREADY called in this favour before the events you allude to. I can go so far as to say esteemed Realms scholar sleyvas is right: Lauzoril did not perish then, but escaped magically, thanks to prior preparations, and got……and got his family out of Thay and into ongoing hiding (that’s where the use of his favour from The Simbul comes in).
As for any question as to why Lauzoril or his fellow Zulkirs didn’t call on The Simbul to humble Szass Tam……or wreck his schemes, they would not have wanted to seem weak, and Mystra would have forbidden it because of the Athora (see TYRANTS IN SCARLET by George Krashos, available at the DM’s Guild).
Moreover, both Lauzoril and both……of his daughters are still alive today (in the 1400s DR).
How?
I buy sleyvas’s idea that Lauzoril’s daughter Mimuay Tavai became a mage-priestess of Velsharoon, and later the lesser avatar of Velsharoon on Abeir (as he proposed……in a thread in the Candlekeep forums familiar to you). At her request, the deity awakened Lauzoril’s clone.
Lauzoril’s other daughter, Nyasia, had her own means of longevity.
What are they all up to, these days? Ah, for that we’ll have to wait and see…
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| NyluenathaStareyes |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 18:10:13
the organization on these treasures is *chefs kiss* questing_gm! Thanks for adding these into the think tank. Also Harkaum?? Sent me into a little tailspin of delight looking into that one. I do love how Ed just casually drops lorebombs like "oh yes, whole planet of Larloch servitor liches nbd!"
Love to see some more Abeir goodness coming together! Now about that indiscriminate list... |
| questing gm |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:15:25
On Abeir's Common
Gustavo Tortato — 09/15/2023 9:45 AM
Hey Ed!
Do people over at Abeir have something close to Toril's common?
Is Aklave used widely by everyone there, or only the draconic races?
Ed Greenwood — 09/16/2023 11:15 AM
Folk of Abeir speak Thorass (Old Common) due to previous contacts with Toril, and Aklave is used widely among most Abeirans, as well. (Also: more lore on Abeir is on the way...) |
| questing gm |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:11:26
On continuing Abeir's timeline post Second Sundering
Gustavo Tortato — 02/15/2023 10:09 PM
Hey @Ed Greenwood, I know this may be under infinite NDAs or maybe just a subject better left forgotten, but is there any intention from you to continue the timeline of the Realms over at Abeir after the Second Sundering?
Being that in the form of soucebooks or even novels?
Ed Greenwood — 02/16/2023 10:22 AM
Intentions, oh yes. However, there ARE NDAs that must be navigated, and I have less than no time these days (and Abeir lends itself to being "compartmentalized" and set aside for a bit), so it may be a while. |
| questing gm |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 12:09:21
On Larloch liches in Abeir
RPGMatch — 02/11/2023 11:37 PM
@Ed Greenwood what three worlds would that be that Larloch has liches working for him in?
Ed Greenwood — 02/12/2023 1:00 AM
Abeir, Oerth, and Harkaum. |
| questing gm |
Posted - 16 May 2024 : 11:58:28
I was initially thinking of vetting through these to determine what is relevant lore or not, but since this scroll is for that, I decided to throw the whole kitchen sink, and let the collective sages here decide.
I have sort them into relative broad categories, so that you can hone in on particular areas of interest as you build your own knowledge base.
This post will only cover #realmslore tweets from Ed (those from the Discord will get their own respective posts). This will just be a compilation of links to tweets and their relative titles. I will, however, not include tweets that mentions Abeir in passing, and/or not the main context/answer/lore of the tweet, but you can contact me if you want an indiscriminate list.
Geography
Culture
Magic
Toril connections/Sundering
Misc
NDAs
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