| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| whyfight |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 18:56:50
I'm not even sure if this is topic worthy, but it has been bothering me for a long time and everyone on here know so much about FR. I couldn't find any threads regarding this so figured id ask. Why has there been not a single book dedicated to the dwarves?
Mod Edit: Changed title to alieviate some confusion as to the thread's intent |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 16:14:55
Although a dark dwarf, The Crimson Gold has a good dwarf character who is the second to Tazi's lead character and is in much of the book. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 15:50:00
I, for one, would love Dwarven main characters, in a good book. RAS did a great job with Mithral Hall, and I really felt for the dwarven charaters. I loved their honor, and devotion to their kin. They were the opposite of the dark elves for which he's so famous. |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 04:43:42
I reckon this won't happen now in a form that I would buy.
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Perhaps WotC could try producing a Realms of the Dwarves anthology. If it proves to be commercially successfully, they could then use characters introduced in those stories as part of either a trilogy or a series of unrelated stories (ala the class novels).
EDIT: Oh, and they should of course include a short story focusing on Bruenor Battlehammer, in order to really push it to the public  .
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| nbnmare |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:42:45
Perhaps WotC could try producing a Realms of the Dwarves anthology. If it proves to be commercially successfully, they could then use characters introduced in those stories as part of either a trilogy or a series of unrelated stories (ala the class novels).
EDIT: Oh, and they should of course include a short story focusing on Bruenor Battlehammer, in order to really push it to the public . |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 17:18:25
i heartily agree!!
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Alien? The hobbits are Tolkien's familiar-to-the-reader starting point in The Lord of the Rings. But many people read fantasy for wish-fulfilment, and a lot of people's fantasy is apparently to be skinny, fey and ageless, not short and hairy. It's damn ugly -- and that's without considering people who want to be drow. It doesn't mean a dwarf-themed Realms novel wouldn't be successful, but I dare say the bean-counters are right to be a little biased away from the risk.
True, most people like to see their wishes fulfilled, in their fantasy at least, but the BS about dwarf novels not selling. Well, marketing should actually try and publish just one novel with the option of continuing the story with sequels IF the novel sells. Hell, TSR did that with DragonLance, why not do it with a Realms dwarf novel?
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 13:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Alien? The hobbits are Tolkien's familiar-to-the-reader starting point in The Lord of the Rings. But many people read fantasy for wish-fulfilment, and a lot of people's fantasy is apparently to be skinny, fey and ageless, not short and hairy. It's damn ugly -- and that's without considering people who want to be drow. It doesn't mean a dwarf-themed Realms novel wouldn't be successful, but I dare say the bean-counters are right to be a little biased away from the risk.
True, most people like to see their wishes fulfilled, in their fantasy at least, but the BS about dwarf novels not selling. Well, marketing should actually try and publish just one novel with the option of continuing the story with sequels IF the novel sells. Hell, TSR did that with DragonLance, why not do it with a Realms dwarf novel? |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 11:23:25
I almost forgot about that rude post there, and I apologies just to post a link, but I
got a urgent phone call. Sorry
|
| mavericace |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 04:12:32
I would be part of that crowd that really doesnt care for Evles that much. They always seam to cocky for me and pale with no meat on them doesnt exactly appeal to me lol. The ageless thing shouldnt be that big of a concern since the lifespan of a Elf is not that much longer than that of a Dwarf (at least in the mind of a short lived Human lol). |
| Ilztfryn Claddghym |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 03:53:12
R.A. Salvatore's books focus on tons of dwarven characters! But this has been my pet peeve too. I hope some of the authors at this site will see this thread and write a trilogy for all of us dwarf fans! |
| Faraer |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 20:50:46
Alien? The hobbits are Tolkien's familiar-to-the-reader starting point in The Lord of the Rings. But many people read fantasy for wish-fulfilment, and a lot of people's fantasy is apparently to be skinny, fey and ageless, not short and hairy. It's damn ugly -- and that's without considering people who want to be drow. It doesn't mean a dwarf-themed Realms novel wouldn't be successful, but I dare say the bean-counters are right to be a little biased away from the risk. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 20:43:47
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
I often wonder why we don't see more dwarves (or gnomes or halflings for that matter) as major characters in the novels. Is it pecause they aren't pretty enough? Are they considered too alien, too nonhuman?
It's possible they're considered that way, but like KEJR I don't see why. I've met more people who are like dwarves than are like elves (at least, going by how they tend to be portrayed). |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 17:02:08
I often wonder why we don't see more dwarves (or gnomes or halflings for that matter) as major characters in the novels. Is it pecause they aren't pretty enough? Are they considered too alien, too nonhuman? Is there really a market predisposition against them, or is this a marketing misconception? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 21:19:48
Don't get me wrong, I love elves for what they are, but even I can admit that they always seem to get everything, and the "shorter folks" always seem to get shafted. I'm used to this.
And again--if there truly is no market for "shorter" protoganists, then what is with all the Dragonlance novels having to do with dwarves? |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 13:44:30
I was disappointed that they didn't at least do a Dwarven in stallment for the Fighters series. The Elves got a bladesinger book.
I'd love to see a dwarven trilogy, but I've gotten used to disapointment. |
| mavericace |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 07:51:15
Ironic that books about the Drow are mainstream and books about Dwarves are a rarity. I think that most of the Authors that work in the Realms do do a good job of coming up with unique characters but as of yet none of them have been Dwarven main characters. |
| hammer of Moradin |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 06:52:16
There does seem to be a standard protagonist in many novels, Realms or otherwise. It is lamentable that most science fiction and fantasy authors fall into the same trap of using the generic hero template in creating stories. Sure, change his hair, the weapon he carries, the ale he drinks, but in the end they are cookie cutter copies. However, it is what the majority of the consumers are looking for. They want to escape into the story as said protagonist.
And don't think that young 13 year old boys are the only ones guilty. There does seem to be a proliferation of 'otherworldly' romance novels and vampire lover stories out there. Any of you ladies guilty of supporting this sub-genre of books?
To the topic at hand, no there are no dwarven fiction titles for the Forgotten Realms. There are good, and bad, supporting characters, antagonists, and comic relief, but no good heroes. Maybe a small step in the right direction is needed. That Gimli/Legolas type story just might do the trick. Not a lone dwarven character to support the book, instead a co-protagonist to share the glory, and to see how well a coherant, enthusiastic story with a dwarf can sell for the Realms.
Sometimes I wonder if, and how often, dwarven character stories are pitched to the powers-that-be. Is it a taboo choice of character, one that the current array of authors has little interest in, or is it just turned down flat by WOTC. Any authors out there have any insight? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 23:26:18
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........)
Shanatar as far as I can remember: Both Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea should have quite a bit about Shanatar in relationship with the lands above. There is also Dwarven Deep and Drizzt Do'Urdens guide to the Underdark.
Wyrmskull Throne is the correct module.
See Lost Empires of Faerun, and the Calimport accessory as well for more on Shanatar.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 15:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........)
Shanatar as far as I can remember: Both Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea should have quite a bit about Shanatar in relationship with the lands above. There is also Dwarven Deep and Drizzt Do'Urdens guide to the Underdark.
|
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 15:47:46
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I'd like to know more about the dwarf kingdom (name escapes me) with the Wyrmskull Throne...
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........) |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 11:05:16
Actually, if there was such a series on dwarves, I'd like to know more about the dwarf kingdom (name escapes me) with the Wyrmskull Throne...and then the Great Rift gold dwarves |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 10:04:47
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
IIRC the Drangonlance books starring dwarf/halfling were introduced AFTER the first book releases had been a success. Those first books actually introduced those characters as supporting characters. Only thereafter, once the audience seemed to like them, they were introduced in later books as 'co'-starring characters. At least that was my impression.
Well, several books stared other dwarves than Flint Fireforge, but I agree that the characters popularity in the original trilogy opened up for dwarven protagonists. Also the presentation of the elves in the original books was of a type that made them a bit harder to use as main characters. The kender speak for themselves. With the half elves being extremely rare, the elves secluded, gnomes and kender a bit unsuitable as main protagonists, the way was open for dwarven characters. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 09:55:58
IIRC the Drangonlance books starring dwarf/halfling were introduced AFTER the first book releases had been a success. Those first books actually introduced those characters as supporting characters. Only thereafter, once the audience seemed to like them, they were introduced in later books as 'co'-starring characters. At least that was my impression.
On another note I would like to point out that in Germany we had a series released over the last years which mainly focusing on dwaves:
see here and here and here.
All I heard was that is was very successful and the critics at amazon are only positive as well (even though one might doubt those, of course). Conclusion: Obviously there is a market for dwarven stories, at lieast here in Germany! |
| mavericace |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 08:33:28
It is such a same to me that R.A.Salvatore is really the only author to really go into much depth about dwarves or the dwarven homes. I would love to read a book that had to do with the relationship between the the dwarves and the duergar. Every thing I have read about the duergar talks about how they are such hated rivals of the dwarves but there really isnt much out there that talks about any of the wars/fights/problems.
Also like Rinonalyrna pointed out there is not a lot of books about gnomes or halflings as well; such a shame IMO. |
| Aureus |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 07:50:58
which sould be big book, because they sticked together until Gimli was very old and as Legolas departed to Valinor in a small craft, he took the dwarf with him, they were the very last to travel there |
| Zaknafein |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 06:26:44
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Maybe they should make a dwarf protagonist with an elf sidekick and put the elf on the cover *shrug* it might fool them 13 year olds...but if you look at all the Orlando Bloom/Legolas fans
i can see it now. the untold adventures of Legolas and Gimli. haha |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 05:37:04
Hmm... They could give the dwarf an elven girlfriend. How's that for adolescent wish fulfillment?
More seriously, I too I don't buy that image is everything. A bunch of dwarves and a halfling carried the Hobbit to international book fame. Some very popular genre characters are somewhat dwarf-like. A major example that comes to mind is Wolverine. He's short, stocky, not pretty-boy handsome, tougher than nails, has a temper, a sense of honor, and has berserker rage qualities when he fights. Yet he's one of the most popular characters in comics.
My previous comment was my unsuccessful attempt to say that the company just needs to create a dwarf character with what they term 'traction.' Most dwarves that appear in novels seem just like every other dwarf out there. They play to the stereotypes almost too well, it also doesn't help that dwarves often play the comic relief and support roles so they seem to hold these characteristics as a race in published materials. They put little individuality to what it means to be a dwarf. (Don't ask me, I have no idea, and maybe that's a problem with the material presented.)
Another note, it seems the only dwarf who gets any real attention in FR is Bruenor. That's not much exposure for dwarves, which might cause a sort of negative feedback loop. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 21:23:17
Maybe they should make a dwarf protagonist with an elf sidekick and put the elf on the cover *shrug* it might fool them 13 year olds...but if you look at all the Orlando Bloom/Legolas fans, who knows maybe marketing does have a point, fashion etc influences society, and with annerexic(sp?) models being still on the front page instead of the average Jill or John, who can blame them for going with the flow.
Personally, I prefer a bunch of dwarf books over a new elf-related series...unless the elf-novel is written by Elaine Cunningham and involves Lamruil's norther realms... |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 20:26:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't see why a dwarf (or gnome or halfling) couldn't have a starring role in a novel, or why they would be harder to relate to than elves. The only thing I see at work here, really, is the unwritten and usually followed rule that protagonists have to be attractive by the standards of modern readers--that is, tall, slender, and most important of all, young (in appearance if not actual age).
I couldn't agree more. This is also what is keeping an eventual Mirt novel a dream far into the future. Are they still aiming for the thirteen year old male as an audience? I don't mean that disrespectfully, its just that I remember seeing that mentioned a time ago. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 18:38:38
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
But why would Realms readers be less receptive to dwarf novels than Dragonlance readers?
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't see why a dwarf (or gnome or halfling) couldn't have a starring role in a novel, or why they would be harder to relate to than elves. The only thing I see at work here, really, is the unwritten and usually followed rule that protagonists have to be attractive by the standards of modern readers--that is, tall, slender, and most important of all, young (in appearance if not actual age). |
| Delzounblood |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 16:22:22
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Why is it that suddenly I can hear a certain Austin Powers characer saying, "Oh, I'm dead sexy."
Hey I'm not FAT
A B#####d yes, but not fat!
Delz
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