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whyfight
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 18:56:50
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I'm not even sure if this is topic worthy, but it has been bothering me for a long time and everyone on here know so much about FR. I couldn't find any threads regarding this so figured id ask. Why has there been not a single book dedicated to the dwarves?
Mod Edit: Changed title to alieviate some confusion as to the thread's intent
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An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens. |
Edited by - Arkhaedun on 06 Feb 2007 23:02:41
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 20:45:27
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Now, however aside from the product Victor 'linked' you to there is also the Complete Book of Dwarves, a 2nd Ed. supplement generally discussing the dwarven race that might be of interest to you as well.
Further information can be found in the FR sourcebook Races of Faerun, but that is of course only limited to its content on the short folk.
So the link provided above shows you the major and best work ever created (so far) for lore, and I might add [b]REALMS-specific[b] lore for dwarves. Deep Dwarves I hold up highly as one of the best sourcebooks out there.... If you look for infos on dwarves that should be the tome you need, most certainly.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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whyfight
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 22:44:32
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| thank you both for your help. But i mean like a FR novel or series. |
An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 22:49:16
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| There's only really the novel Thornhold, by Elaine Cunningham, that has a major part in it for Dwarves. Unfortunatly, it's very hard to get. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 22:57:53
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Mark Sehestedt, one of the editors for WOTC's novel line, and a Forgotten Realms author in his own rite (Frostfell, a very good book, especially for someone that hasn't written a Forgotten Realms novel before), said this about non-human races as pertains to novels,
"That's the danger of writing about non-humans--elves we can get away with, because they're sexy, but no matter how cool the book is, if you put a dwarf or a halfling on the cover, sales drop. The audience needs to relate." (Dragon Magazine 347)
For what its worth, I beleive Mark isn't just playing his gut reaction. I'm sure they have done some research into this sort of thing. I would love a novel focused on dwarves, but as it stands, the overall market seems to want them to be supporting characters.
Mark may drop in and comment on this (or he may not), since he does frequent the keep from time to time.
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:04:20
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I altered the title of the thread a bit so as to avoid any confusion that might spring from it. Although this was posted in the right place, its easy to forget what area it was in if you are an "active topics" kind of person.
Thanks. |
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whyfight
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:17:38
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| The way i see it everyone i have ever asked or spoke to on any forum says they would love a series about dwarves. Even if it was like a stand alone in a class series. But has been said many a time is that the majority dont post on forums so who ive spoken to could be a very small percent, and people could really not want them (though they are adorable and i cant see why you wouldnt want them). |
An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 00:31:44
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And Rich Baker said:quote:
I'd be happy to write about dwarves, but I think it would be a tough sell to much of our audience (and I know our book editors would be pretty shaky on supporting such a notion). We think that most of our readers just aren't that interested in dwarf protagonists in a story. I don't know why that is -- they're fine as supporting characters. But they just don't seem to have the same "starring role" capacity that humans or elves (or drow!) do.
My impression is this is inferred from market research rather than known directly. I'm sure there's truth in it, though I don't think dwarves are harder for us to relate to than elves -- maybe harder to aspire to. (But why would Realms readers be less receptive to dwarf novels than Dragonlance readers?)
Which authors want to write a dwarf-focused book? I'd be much more enthusiastic about that than just assigning one to somebody. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 00:57:01
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I don't doubt that they may be right about the readership (in general, not those that reside here at the keep), but I do think its interesting that Eberron and Forgotten Realms novels seem to follow one guideline, but Krynn is about to get a second dwarven trilogy (okay, so the first book won't come out for a while, but its in the works).
As far as being relatable, its kind of funny, because I can relate to a bearded, overweight, hard working guy that wants to be known for the quality of the work he does and enjoys knocking back a few "hard" drinks moreso than someone that lives for a thousand years and would rather contemplate poetry and music during that time. Nothing against elves, I'm just saying, realistically, how hard is it to understand dwarves?
Still, knowing what books sell, I will say again, I don't doubt that humans and elves (surface or otherwise) likely sell better than anything else they might try. |
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whyfight
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 04:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
As far as being relatable, its kind of funny, because I can relate to a bearded, overweight, hard working guy that wants to be known for the quality of the work he does and enjoys knocking back a few "hard" drinks moreso than someone that lives for a thousand years and would rather contemplate poetry and music during that time. Nothing against elves, I'm just saying, realistically, how hard is it to understand dwarves?
omg that is seriously one of the funniest things ive probably ever heard, had me diein. On topic, id like to know how sales of dwarven series set in other worlds do, say in dragnlance. |
An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens. |
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Zaknafein
Seeker
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 05:37:42
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| probably because the majority of people who would purchase the novel/series would be the die hard FR collector and reader, and not the casual sci-fi/fantasy reader browsin the shelves, which is an audience they really dont want to alienate. |
Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden
Full plate and packing steel. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 06:13:50
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In that case, they just need to make a dwarf character "cool" enough to carry his own story, probably with a supporting cast composed of the regular humans and elves, or conversely characters less appealing than dwarves are to the typical reader, but in a fun not annoying way.
It's also easier to make the typical human or elf into a "fantasy babe or fantasy hunk" book cover. Someone just needs to make Dwarves "sexy."
I've expended my quote quota for the week. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 07:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by whyfight
omg that is seriously one of the funniest things ive probably ever heard, had me diein. On topic, id like to know how sales of dwarven series set in other worlds do, say in dragnlance.
Well, I don't know the numbers, but it bares mentioning that the Dwarven Nations trilogy by Dan Parkinson has not been reprinted, whilst the Elven Nations has. Annoying as the last two of these are on the top of my want list of old TSR books. Dwarves has always played a larger part in DL books than in Realms, but even there the last ten years has seen a lessening of their appearance.
Interestingly enough, Salvatore has always used a good number of dwarves and his sales are going OK, so there should be a possibility for dwarves as supporting characters at least. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 16:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
Someone just needs to make Dwarves "sexy."
What dya mean "Just needs to make Dwarves sexy!"
I'm Stout and I'm Proud!
Four Foot Four and Very Loud.
A Hulk O'Muscle,
More Brawn than Brain.
A BATTLERAGER & Delzounblood's My Name.
She Dwarves swoon at the orcs blood I've spilt,
Whilst trying to look up mi Kilt.
Delzounblood I tell ye,
A Sexy Dwarf so proud,
The Hardest and Hunkiest Dwarf Around.....
*Delz speakin to a buxom young elf maid*
"Do ye ave any dwarf in ye? Would ya like some?"
Dwarves are sexy, cool & NOVEL worthy
So writers get a writin'
Delz be a tellin' ye.
Delz
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 16:16:19
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| Why is it that suddenly I can hear a certain Austin Powers characer saying, "Oh, I'm dead sexy." |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 16:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Why is it that suddenly I can hear a certain Austin Powers characer saying, "Oh, I'm dead sexy."
Hey I'm not FAT
A B#####d yes, but not fat!
Delz
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 18:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
But why would Realms readers be less receptive to dwarf novels than Dragonlance readers?
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't see why a dwarf (or gnome or halfling) couldn't have a starring role in a novel, or why they would be harder to relate to than elves. The only thing I see at work here, really, is the unwritten and usually followed rule that protagonists have to be attractive by the standards of modern readers--that is, tall, slender, and most important of all, young (in appearance if not actual age). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Feb 2007 18:39:46 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 20:26:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I was wondering the same thing.
I don't see why a dwarf (or gnome or halfling) couldn't have a starring role in a novel, or why they would be harder to relate to than elves. The only thing I see at work here, really, is the unwritten and usually followed rule that protagonists have to be attractive by the standards of modern readers--that is, tall, slender, and most important of all, young (in appearance if not actual age).
I couldn't agree more. This is also what is keeping an eventual Mirt novel a dream far into the future. Are they still aiming for the thirteen year old male as an audience? I don't mean that disrespectfully, its just that I remember seeing that mentioned a time ago. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2007 : 21:23:17
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Maybe they should make a dwarf protagonist with an elf sidekick and put the elf on the cover *shrug* it might fool them 13 year olds...but if you look at all the Orlando Bloom/Legolas fans, who knows maybe marketing does have a point, fashion etc influences society, and with annerexic(sp?) models being still on the front page instead of the average Jill or John, who can blame them for going with the flow.
Personally, I prefer a bunch of dwarf books over a new elf-related series...unless the elf-novel is written by Elaine Cunningham and involves Lamruil's norther realms... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 05:37:04
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Hmm... They could give the dwarf an elven girlfriend. How's that for adolescent wish fulfillment?
More seriously, I too I don't buy that image is everything. A bunch of dwarves and a halfling carried the Hobbit to international book fame. Some very popular genre characters are somewhat dwarf-like. A major example that comes to mind is Wolverine. He's short, stocky, not pretty-boy handsome, tougher than nails, has a temper, a sense of honor, and has berserker rage qualities when he fights. Yet he's one of the most popular characters in comics.
My previous comment was my unsuccessful attempt to say that the company just needs to create a dwarf character with what they term 'traction.' Most dwarves that appear in novels seem just like every other dwarf out there. They play to the stereotypes almost too well, it also doesn't help that dwarves often play the comic relief and support roles so they seem to hold these characteristics as a race in published materials. They put little individuality to what it means to be a dwarf. (Don't ask me, I have no idea, and maybe that's a problem with the material presented.)
Another note, it seems the only dwarf who gets any real attention in FR is Bruenor. That's not much exposure for dwarves, which might cause a sort of negative feedback loop. |
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Zaknafein
Seeker
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 06:26:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Maybe they should make a dwarf protagonist with an elf sidekick and put the elf on the cover *shrug* it might fool them 13 year olds...but if you look at all the Orlando Bloom/Legolas fans
i can see it now. the untold adventures of Legolas and Gimli. haha |
Zaknafein Do'Urden: mentor, teacher, friend....To Zak, the one who inspired my courage. -Drizzt Do'Urden
Full plate and packing steel. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 07:50:58
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| which sould be big book, because they sticked together until Gimli was very old and as Legolas departed to Valinor in a small craft, he took the dwarf with him, they were the very last to travel there |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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mavericace
Seeker
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 08:33:28
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It is such a same to me that R.A.Salvatore is really the only author to really go into much depth about dwarves or the dwarven homes. I would love to read a book that had to do with the relationship between the the dwarves and the duergar. Every thing I have read about the duergar talks about how they are such hated rivals of the dwarves but there really isnt much out there that talks about any of the wars/fights/problems.
Also like Rinonalyrna pointed out there is not a lot of books about gnomes or halflings as well; such a shame IMO. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 09:55:58
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IIRC the Drangonlance books starring dwarf/halfling were introduced AFTER the first book releases had been a success. Those first books actually introduced those characters as supporting characters. Only thereafter, once the audience seemed to like them, they were introduced in later books as 'co'-starring characters. At least that was my impression.
On another note I would like to point out that in Germany we had a series released over the last years which mainly focusing on dwaves:
see here and here and here.
All I heard was that is was very successful and the critics at amazon are only positive as well (even though one might doubt those, of course). Conclusion: Obviously there is a market for dwarven stories, at lieast here in Germany! |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 10:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
IIRC the Drangonlance books starring dwarf/halfling were introduced AFTER the first book releases had been a success. Those first books actually introduced those characters as supporting characters. Only thereafter, once the audience seemed to like them, they were introduced in later books as 'co'-starring characters. At least that was my impression.
Well, several books stared other dwarves than Flint Fireforge, but I agree that the characters popularity in the original trilogy opened up for dwarven protagonists. Also the presentation of the elves in the original books was of a type that made them a bit harder to use as main characters. The kender speak for themselves. With the half elves being extremely rare, the elves secluded, gnomes and kender a bit unsuitable as main protagonists, the way was open for dwarven characters. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 11:05:16
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| Actually, if there was such a series on dwarves, I'd like to know more about the dwarf kingdom (name escapes me) with the Wyrmskull Throne...and then the Great Rift gold dwarves |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 15:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I'd like to know more about the dwarf kingdom (name escapes me) with the Wyrmskull Throne...
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........) |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 15:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........)
Shanatar as far as I can remember: Both Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea should have quite a bit about Shanatar in relationship with the lands above. There is also Dwarven Deep and Drizzt Do'Urdens guide to the Underdark.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31798 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2007 : 23:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Now, are you talking about the great dwarven nation of Shanatar? If so IIRC there is a lot info on them either in even that module (wyrmskull throne) or else in the Races of Faerun sourcebook
(.....or anywhere else, but I know for certain that I have read in magnificent detail about them somewhere. But where...? My brain is a mess apperntly.........)
Shanatar as far as I can remember: Both Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea should have quite a bit about Shanatar in relationship with the lands above. There is also Dwarven Deep and Drizzt Do'Urdens guide to the Underdark.
Wyrmskull Throne is the correct module.
See Lost Empires of Faerun, and the Calimport accessory as well for more on Shanatar.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Feb 2007 23:27:25 |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 06:52:16
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There does seem to be a standard protagonist in many novels, Realms or otherwise. It is lamentable that most science fiction and fantasy authors fall into the same trap of using the generic hero template in creating stories. Sure, change his hair, the weapon he carries, the ale he drinks, but in the end they are cookie cutter copies. However, it is what the majority of the consumers are looking for. They want to escape into the story as said protagonist.
And don't think that young 13 year old boys are the only ones guilty. There does seem to be a proliferation of 'otherworldly' romance novels and vampire lover stories out there. Any of you ladies guilty of supporting this sub-genre of books?
To the topic at hand, no there are no dwarven fiction titles for the Forgotten Realms. There are good, and bad, supporting characters, antagonists, and comic relief, but no good heroes. Maybe a small step in the right direction is needed. That Gimli/Legolas type story just might do the trick. Not a lone dwarven character to support the book, instead a co-protagonist to share the glory, and to see how well a coherant, enthusiastic story with a dwarf can sell for the Realms.
Sometimes I wonder if, and how often, dwarven character stories are pitched to the powers-that-be. Is it a taboo choice of character, one that the current array of authors has little interest in, or is it just turned down flat by WOTC. Any authors out there have any insight? |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Question Re: Dwarven Main Characters In Novels
