| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:45:10
I was thinking of the characters in Forgotten Realms that have a "legendary" quality to them. The answers that come up to me are the following...
Alias
Elminster
Drizzt
The Seven Sisters
Arilyn
Khelban *lowers hat for*
Shandril
Allusair and Azoun
Cyric/Kelemvor/Midnight
It occurs to me that all of these people have very distinct and bizarre origins plus adventures that shake the setting. This is versus all the heroes whom are much more "part of the setting."
Which do you prefer? Not necessarily which is better.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 00:34:11
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Arilyn isn't very iconic for elven culture either, but that's why I like her. Evermeet the novel doesn't even feature Arilyn. It's Danilo who writes the book, assisted by a bunch of sages, if I remember correctly.
I agree--I think Arilyn's appeal come from her personality and her rapport with Danilo Thann rather than the lore that she "brings to the table" (same goes for other characters). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 00:32:24
quote:
Originally posted by Von Seossk
An interesting, original character, and yet he wasn't some kind of world shaping presence like a Drizzt.
I agree with your main point, but as I said before Drizzt isn't exactly a "world-shaping presence". |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 08:44:11
Personally, the entire royalty/yada yada thing doesn't have that much appeal to me. Take Moonshae for example. There wasn't really that much about Tristan that really wanted me to know more about the region. The guy was cliché.
In Crusade it wasn't that much about Azoun in relation to Cormyr it was about Azoun the statesman and military leader. That was cool, and not really iconic at all.
Arilyn isn't very iconic for elven culture either, but that's why I like her. Evermeet the novel doesn't even feature Arilyn. It's Danilo who writes the book, assisted by a bunch of sages, if I remember correctly.
Can't think of more right now...need caffein and nicotein... |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 06:09:35
As reminded, I'm shying away from "what I prefer" (I think everyone got sick to death of me in that thread) and instead postulate that protagionists that are intimately tied to a setting or location tend to become more popular. Let's face it, the importance of Arilyn Moonblade is less about her actual wielding a moonblade than how much she's told us about Evermeet's Royal family and all of the Elvish culture in Toril.
I appreciate characters that are essentially "spokesmen" for regions. It's why I enjoy stories about Chosen, Monarchs, and other characters intimately related to a specific region as opposed to ones that just have their adventures and disappear. It makes the novels into helpful game hints as well.
I think that this is born out that this quality MAKES them iconic. Because it sort of becomes impossible to do a story about the Moonshaes without mentioning the King's adventures in this respect and the battle against Bhaal/late Talos. |
| Von Seossk |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 05:47:26
Honestly, it's come to a point where I'd rather read about a character who is more enmeshed in the Realms than one whom the Realms seems to revolve around. I recently finished "Soldiers of Ice" and loved it. I don't even think the main character was ever mentioned again. Same with Venom's Kiss. An interesting, original character, and yet he wasn't some kind of world shaping presence like a Drizzt. Elminster and Drizzt are good for putting a face to D&D, someone who can basically be the spokesperson. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 19:36:04
I largely agree with Mace oddly enough.
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| Faraer |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 18:48:56
The frisson comes from the fact that he's a drow -- it's an exoticism that stems from where he comes from and what he might have been (I assume this comes out in Drizzt fanfic). His antiheroism is in his minor-key self-doubt and his hunter persona and, again, his race and its taboo-breaking danger.
Drizzt can be seen as an honest-to-goodness hero for people who think they're too cynical for that; it's inside a 'sweet coating' of edgy coolth that wouldn't be there if he was an otherwise similar character who'd been brought up in Silverymoon with its morality. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 18:06:21
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Drizzt is... an anti-hero (with frisson of deviant sexuality)
???
I'm sorry, but I'm hard-pressed to think of any character more prudish than Drizzt, or less an anti-hero. Salvatore's said himself in an interview somewhere that his books are the kind of books where the heroes always make the right decisions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 17:09:30
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Alas, folks, we're unlikely to ever see those in trade paperback format, despite the fact that all the storylines would perfectly break into 4-issue collections.
TSR owns the rights to the characters and concepts of the FR comics.
DC Comics owns the rights to the art and pages as published. Since the demise of the comic license in 1992, there's no legal way DC could publish those without setting up a new license with Hasbro. And that's more money than they'd likely recoup in publishing.
That's a really shame! 
I know I'm still missing a couple of issue myself, and they're rare enough at online retailers to make it nearly impossible for me to complete my collection.
TPBs may be my only chance to finish the series.
I see them on eBay, from time to time. They've actually been popping up a lot more frequently, of late.
I had traded all my comics into my not-so-friendly comic shop the first time I bailed on comics. When the place folded, I made a point of getting them all back, plus the ones I'd missed.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 16:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Alas, folks, we're unlikely to ever see those in trade paperback format, despite the fact that all the storylines would perfectly break into 4-issue collections.
TSR owns the rights to the characters and concepts of the FR comics.
DC Comics owns the rights to the art and pages as published. Since the demise of the comic license in 1992, there's no legal way DC could publish those without setting up a new license with Hasbro. And that's more money than they'd likely recoup in publishing.
That's a really shame!
I know I'm still missing a couple of issue myself, and they're rare enough at online retailers to make it nearly impossible for me to complete my collection.
TPBs may be my only chance to finish the series.
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 16:22:20
Problem with "iconic" characters is that they cannot really be put into any formula.
Take two drow for example: one named Drizzt Do'Urden, the other Pharaun Mizzrym.
Both are iconic, and liked. I bet if Pharaun would receive his own series people would buy it and love it just as much as they do with the (early) Drizzt books. They aren't similar in any way tho, except their race. The funny part is Pharaun has enough introspection to rival Drizzt's, but he also has a sense of humor, which, in my book, makes him much more likeable.
Elminster also has a sense of humor, but Alias and Dragonbait don't, at least not very much.
If prowess of weapons is any indication of iconic characters, Drizzt wouldn't count either since there are quite a few better swordsmen around (Mods, please insert a link to the appropriate swordmaster answer Ed supplied some time ago here).
Does slaying dragons make a character iconic? Nah. Does it help? If the character is Sturm Brightblade, sure, otherwise...no idea.
There is no failsafe for a hero-character/icon.
Look at Star Wars, the first movies were iconic, as were the characters. That thing could not be repeated, no matter how hard people tried to copy the formula (including the series' creator himself!).
Same goes for music, Led Zeppelin is an icon. Would a band that made the same music today become as famous? No, they would not even get a record deal, because they aren't really video-clip material.
I think iconic is a cocktail of humor, skill, content, and above all: LUCK! |
| Faraer |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 16:16:35
Drizzt and Elminster are the only characters of those popular enough that Wizards demands continual books about them. Drizzt is popular because he's at once a hero, an anti-hero (with frisson of deviant sexuality), and a modern psychological individual. But knowing that doesn't allow one to duplicate him, because it's in Bob's execution and right-things-at-the-right-time luck. On the other hand, Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale follows, deliberately or otherwise, the same broad pattern.
Sharanralee is a legendary Harper adventuress based in Everlund, briefly mentioned in the Old Grey Box and half a dozen other sources. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 15:55:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One certain way of looking at it and a perfectly valid one.
The argument the only reason that the Forgotten Realms comic crew isn't more iconic is that they aren't releasing that comic anymore
(they need to release that in trades darnit)
I'd those trades. 
They may not be doing the comic anymore, but the characters from the comics certainly have their place in the Realms. All of them were mentioned in various 2E sources, and just about all of them have been mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in 3E material.
Alas, folks, we're unlikely to ever see those in trade paperback format, despite the fact that all the storylines would perfectly break into 4-issue collections.
TSR owns the rights to the characters and concepts of the FR comics.
DC Comics owns the rights to the art and pages as published. Since the demise of the comic license in 1992, there's no legal way DC could publish those without setting up a new license with Hasbro. And that's more money than they'd likely recoup in publishing.
Steven
who has a 2nd full set of issues he means to bind into books eventually to gift back to Jeff Grubb...one of these years after he learns bookbinding as a hobby.... |
| Krafus |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 15:47:04
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Less novel-exposed characters like Mintiper Moonsilver, Sharanralee Crownstar, and the Knights of Myth Drannor are more legendary than Alias or Drizzt (who have the strangest origins) or Arilyn. Rulers and gods are bound to be involved in more RS Es, and thus more famous or infamous for it. Then, most of the stories folk of Faerûn know -- as stories -- haven't been published.
May I know who is Sharanralee Crownstar? I can't recall ever reading about her before (which, in a way, goes to show that she's indeed under-exposed). |
| Conlon |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 01:14:30
I think that Manshoon is iconic. I still haven't picked up "Cloak and Dagger", so I don't know a lot about the clone thing, but he is a malevolent, powerful mage who had to go from being #1 to #2. His story just sounds interesting, even though I only know fragments... maybe that's why I'm so interested??? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 01:09:53
Touche.
I think to narrow it down, I suppose it's the quality of what makes Realms characters stand on thei own as popular for readers. The inherent literary qualities of characters is a far too debatable subject and their fame in the realms is something that is a bit ambigious. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:48:09
Charles, you mention '"legendary" quality', 'iconic', 'big character', 'THE Realms characters', 'stand out'. I think you need to narrow down what you mean and why it matters to you. Are we talking about characters' fame in the Realms, their popularity among readers, their inherent literary qualities, their standing in the Realms as a commercial property? Those are all distinct, though linked, considerations. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:42:22
Take it easy, folks. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:35:28
With all due respect Mace and Winter, this topic has nothing to do with Heroes of Fantasy. Heroes of Fantasy was about what type of heroes are best for the setting. This is a topic of what makes certain Realms heroes stand out or not. I see them as utterly unrelated.
Please contribute something useful to the thread if you're going to post. I know you're both capable of it.
So far, our only answer is 1. Marketing.
And frankly, I don't believe marketing is enough to set it aside. Honestly, I believe there's stronger and more mythic connotations at work here. Arilyn's story is a grand and sweeping epic with a discovered magic sword, a lost princess connection, and a revenge tale. It's very classical work.
And she's iconic I think (at least amongst realms fans) in the fact she's cranked out nearly as many books as Drizzt and more than any other character I note. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 03:45:42
I guess I can see the difference....and then I can't.
Both types of NPCs are ‘part of the setting’ in my eyes. This matters more to me than what their ‘legendary’ status is.
Of more import than this is my personal level of familiarity with the ‘iconic’ NPCs. The ones I’m more familiar with matter to me more, regardless of who they are.
I’ve learned to extend this to my job as a DM. Thus I try to get a feel for what my players think/know about certain NPCs, so I can use the ones they know best to help entertain them in play.
I’ve found the bigger the NPC the more fun I have, especially when I can portray them as less all-powerful/perfect and more fallible and human (like describing a haggard looking and fidgeting Elminster inside Blackstaff Tower to my players and having Laeral say to them in-game that he’s recovering from a horrid experience in the outer planes).
Players remember stuff like that.
J. Grenemyer |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 09:28:51
Arilyn hasn't exactly shaken the Realms, either, and I'm not sure how legendary she is.
Oh, and I echo Mace: this sounds like a rehash of all those topics you made before, Charles. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 09:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Khelban *lowers hat for*
'tis still Khelben, dude.
Otherwise it sounds way too much like Dr. Alban...
Also...this, again, sounds too much like "Heroes in fantasy" or whathave you... nuff said |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:39:29
Heh. I'm weird. I like roleplaying all the time, regardless of which NPC I'm roleplaying with. The Sun Elf I'm playing in a PBEM now would probably find it more interesting to talk to a common farmer than a human king, just for the difference.
The closest thing I've come to having a PC meet a "really big important NPC" was when my Faerie Elf in Greyhawk traveled to meet the Queen of the Elves in their little demiplane. And this was more because, well, he was an elf, and he had been banished with his mind wiped, so it was a racial and background thing. It wasn't because she was big and important, per se. And she's nowhere near an 'iconic' Greyhawk NPC. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:23:20
It's a matter of having "circles" in gaming. The players don't really like 'normal' adventurers but love RPGing. Given plenty of NPCs are royalty of various makes and stripes or godlike wizards, they tend to think that meeting with them is like travelling in the big leagues.
Plus, honestly I'll admit my failings as a DM, only novel characters are detailed enough to get REALLY DEEP roleplaying from. It's minimal work on my part and I benefit from it tremendously. Elaine Cunningham I owe many thanks for all the fun elf adventures.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:13:33
Well many people enjoy meeting the known npc's when gaming; I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is well handled and every one is having fun. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:07:22
quote:
Why? The biggest fun out of the realms for me is the wide and varied NPCs. I don't play for Cormyr but to interact with the big dogs like Azoun and Elminster (whose fun to RPG).
I'm happy to DM for them.
To me, that would kind of be like living your life only to meet celebrities... A bit too shallow for me. :) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 07:48:32
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
I would drop out of that group quickly. ;)
Why? The biggest fun out of the realms for me is the wide and varied NPCs. I don't play for Cormyr but to interact with the big dogs like Azoun and Elminster (whose fun to RPG).
I'm happy to DM for them.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 07:48:01
quote:
Originally Posted KnightErrantJR
I've always wanted to hear more about the Company of Crazed Venturers myself. There are tons of characters that have either local or Faerun wide notoriety that we haven't heard much about in published Realmslore.
The Company are at the top of my list, together with Manes band, when it comes to persons/groups I am curious about and whom I would love to see a trilogy on. Together with all the npc's from the first two campaign settings I should say. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 06:55:41
quote:
Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
I would drop out of that group quickly. ;) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 05:57:46
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Especially considering the vast majority of people I know never even have these 'iconic' characters encountered in their games, or if they do, they're only brief cameos or references. :)
Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
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