| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ywhtptgtfo |
Posted - 12 Jun 2006 : 17:29:14
Anyone find the book disappointing? Sarya and Malkizid are both dumb ogres in this book and are always outwitted by those self-righteous elves. The final scene where Sarya dies is especially pathetic. She's like "I-WILL-KILL-YOU" wah wah wah. Omg, when did her IQ drop so low? Fighting a half-celestial high mage and refuse to escape? Poorly done. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 01 Aug 2007 : 02:27:21
quote:
Originally posted by J D Dunsany
Thanks for your kind comments, Rinonalyrna. As I think I've remarked elsewhere, life would be dreadfully dull if people agreed with each other all the time.
Now that's something I can...agree on. |
| J D Dunsany |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 13:10:27
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, JDD. The novel certainly didn't leave the same impression on me as it did on you, but I find it interesting to read about what other people thought, even if I may not necessarily agree with them.
BTW, I did rather like Lorosfyr, myself.
Thanks for your kind comments, Rinonalyrna. As I think I've remarked elsewhere, life would be dreadfully dull if people agreed with each other all the time. I'm always grateful for Candlekeep as a place where such differences of opinion can be aired in a (reasonably) calm and eloquent manner.
One thing I forgot to mention, actually, was that my favourite 'bit' in the novel (or at least the bit that made me chuckle the most) was Fflar's desperate attempt to warn Ilsevele of the drow trap. The image of him crashing through the window and careering headlong into the meeting chamber will live long in the memory - a kind of drunken, elven Superman. 
Regards, as always...
JDD |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 02:57:10
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, JDD. The novel certainly didn't leave the same impression on me as it did on you, but I find it interesting to read about what other people thought, even if I may not necessarily agree with them.
BTW, I did rather like Lorosfyr, myself. |
| J D Dunsany |
Posted - 31 Jul 2007 : 01:37:53
Late to the party again...
*grumble, grumble*
(At least I've brought something better than cheesy nibbles. Well, I hope I have anyway...)
Well, I finished the book a few days ago, but, knowing from one or two passing comments that Final Gate is a novel that has divided opinion somewhat, I thought I'd better have a proper think about it before I posted my usual meanderings. The very many interesting comments that precede these were very useful too in ordering my thoughts, for which I give due thanks - even if I happen to disagree with some of them.
So, here goes. Oh, there are spoilers in the next few paragraphs, btw - just in case anyone hasn't read the book yet.
Starting with the generalities, let me first say that I've really enjoyed the series and this novel in particular. I've read a fair few Realms novels now (although nowhere near as many as a lot of people on these boards) and I remain constantly exhilirated by the variety of possible stories the setting can generate. The 'Last Mythal' series marks itself out very early on as being in the 'epic' category and it's been a very entertaining and, at times, very thrilling ride.
A number of people have, both in this thread and others, commented on the appropriateness or otherwise of dealing with such momentous events as the Crusade/Return of the elves and the defeat of House Dlardrageth in novel form, arguing, if I'm reading them right, that dramatic changes to the established setting should not be taken so directly out of players' hands. If I'm honest, I have some sympathy with that position. But then, I have some sympathy with the authors' and designers' position too. The Realms are, after all, meant to be a living breathing changing world and this particular change is one I actually rather like. The idea of the elves seeing a need to Return and permanently settle in Myth Drannor works for me. The way the change is portrayed - debate and then Crusade in the first novel, followed by a sharp series of lessons in human politicking in the second and third - seems both sensible and intriguing. It also, it seems to me, opens up a fair few opportunities for campaign and scenario ideas, even as it closes others off.
Ultimately, of course, my opinion is largely determined by the fact that, when it comes to the Realms, I'm more of a reader than a player. And it's as a reader that I want to make most of my comments.
The first thing to point out, I suppose, is that Baker can write. His prose is clear, crisp and largely free of some of the clunkier fantasy cliches. His sense of space is very impressive; I particularly enjoyed the descriptions of the journeys to Lorosfyr and through the Barrens, both very threatening and disturbing albeit in quite different ways.
Where he falls down a little, as has already been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, is in his depiction of characters, particularly elves. Partly this is due to the practical constraints of handling a fairly large cast in a short(ish) space, but partly, I think, it's to do with the elves themselves. My previous experience with Faerunian elves in any great number was Ed's Elminster in Myth Drannor, a novel that takes the isolationist political outlook of elves as hinted at in LOTR and weds it rather deliciously with an almost wanton sensuality and interestingly contingent morality. The elves of old Myth Drannor were a scheming, vicious lot (something that Baker acknowledges in a highly effective prologue) and, although there is some contrast of political opinion in Evermeet in the first novel, the elves of the Crusade in this one are too noble to be as interesting as they should be. To be fair, this isn't true of characters like Fflar and Seiveril, but it is of the second string characters like Gaerradh, Jorildyn and Felael. It's even true of characters who seemed more three-dimensional in the second novel than they do in this one - between them, Jorin and Nesterin don't seem to have enough personality for one character, let alone two!
As I've already mentioned, though, I think this is more to do with the fact that this novel is all about elves acting a certain way - if most of your characters are elves and almost all of them are acting with the same reserve, commitment and focus, differentiating between them is going to be problematic. It's significant that, of Arevin's adventuring party, it's the two non-elf characters who stand out as memorable creations - Maresa, in fact, is someone I'd happily shell out another six quid to read about.
As to the villains, well Malkizid's great and I'm hoping it won't be too long before he's back. Baker does a great job of portraying his 'silky' evil and the description of the voice puts me in mind of Sutekh from Doctor Who's 'Pyramids of Mars'. Once again, Baker's felicity with description of place works well here to communicate the extent of Malkizid's evil - the descriptions of elegant elven architecture bound in devilish iron are memorable and very effective.
Sarya is perhaps lacking in some tactical astuteness, but, with all the extra help she's been getting (plus the personal humiliation she's had to undergo to get it), it does make a certain kind of sense for her to fly off the handle in the way that she does. Her demise is, perhaps, a little too convenient and is overshadowed by the destruction of the Waymeet, but, nevertheless, it's memorable and... well, there's that word again... 'epic'. (There's a nice piece of misdirection by the author, too, that, at one point, leads you to think she's going to survive, plotting and scheming her revenge.)
As far as the plot goes, well, yes, I thought it was a tad rushed, but, looking back on it now, it's actually quite surprising to see how much is crammed into these 340 pages. A curious kind of inversion took place in this novel, I thought. In the first novel of the trilogy, it was the politics and the epic battle scenes that really grabbed my attention, while Arevin's quest seemed a little too generic and formulaic. In this novel, though, it's the quest sections that really stand out - as they should, because that's where the main action is really taking place.
Araevin's own personal journey - including the loss of Ilsevele to Fflar - is handled with welcome maturity and dignity (not to mention at least some sort of realism - see, you can't get virtually unlimited power and the girl!), as is Fflar's coming to terms with his own personal return during the course of the trilogy. The Realms regulars are also handled well - particularly Scyllua Darkhope (loved the scene with the beholder) and Miklos Selkirk.
All in all, then, I enjoyed this immensely. I'm glad that every Realms tale isn't like this one, but I'm equally glad that, every so often, there's space to tell a story as bold and broad and, well, 'epic' as this one, too.
All the best!
JDD |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 08:19:51
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
I'm glad you enjoyed the read!
By way of dropping a hint about upcoming events... you can expect the Zhents and the Cormanthyran drow to come to an understanding about the new management in Myth Drannor. You can add to the story by building adventures themed around helping the elves to root out hidden drow fortresses and unmask Zhent spies.
Although my campaign is about 8 years away from the events it's great to know that I will be able to annoy my players with drow and Zhents as a team in the future.
Will the unfolding events have any impact on the Moonstars' plans that did involve Myth Drannor, or was the reclaiming of Myth Drannor part of what Khelben had forseen? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 28 Sep 2006 : 00:44:57
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
I'm glad you enjoyed the read!
By way of dropping a hint about upcoming events... you can expect the Zhents and the Cormanthyran drow to come to an understanding about the new management in Myth Drannor. You can add to the story by building adventures themed around helping the elves to root out hidden drow fortresses and unmask Zhent spies.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Well I just finished reading the book. A very good read. Looks like that player in my campaign can forget about reclaiming Myth Drannon now (since we agreed to stay true to cannon)....he can help with what's going on now though :)
Great Rich, now you have piqued my curiosity AND set off the evil DM laugh I always get in my brain when I can spring something on my players . . . (eagarly awaiting clarification on the Zhent/Drow "agreement") |
| RichardBaker |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 21:57:39
I'm glad you enjoyed the read!
By way of dropping a hint about upcoming events... you can expect the Zhents and the Cormanthyran drow to come to an understanding about the new management in Myth Drannor. You can add to the story by building adventures themed around helping the elves to root out hidden drow fortresses and unmask Zhent spies.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Well I just finished reading the book. A very good read. Looks like that player in my campaign can forget about reclaiming Myth Drannon now (since we agreed to stay true to cannon)....he can help with what's going on now though :)
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 18:17:58
Well I just finished reading the book. A very good read. Looks like that player in my campaign can forget about reclaiming Myth Drannon now (since we agreed to stay true to cannon)....he can help with what's going on now though :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 02:17:58
quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
the author left this sub-plot half way through final gate and never returned to the issue...
I agree. As well done as the Zhentarim scenes were, they felt tacked on and didn't really need to be in this novel. |
| riverc0il |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 01:43:59
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
The moments with Scylua and Fzoul... Slam DUNK! Scylua's maiming of that beholder was an awesome scene. We need a whole novel dealing with her.
i just finished the series and will post thoughts on the novel later when i have a chance to gather up my thoughts and write something well thoughout, but i just wanted to echo your statement. about scyula and fzoul. i kept waiting for one of these two to do some lame "typical bad guy screws up the plans," but it never happened! although, we were left hanging on what happened with these characters and hillsfair. the author left this sub-plot half way through final gate and never returned to the issue, trying to wrap it up by saying fzoul was happy with his gains or some non-sense. any ways, the beholder scene was by far the best scene in the entire book!!! it really shows you the character of scyula and what it takes to be a top dog amongst the zhents. the nerve! putting a beholder in its place with such a violent action, nicely done. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 13:58:02
It is
I meant Sharantyr (Shar), obviously. That should teach me not to open my mouth (or should that be "bang on my keyboard?) when I've had something strong to drink just before... |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 10:23:29
Isn't Sharwyn the name of a bard henchwoman from NWN? |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 10:05:36
Well, if I've understood things correctly it's set during the early days of the Knights. So that'd be a very young ranger then.
...But I'd still like to see some more of Sharwyn. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:24:13
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I'm hoping we see at least one of the Ranger's Three in Swords of Eveningstar. 
We probably will, knowing Ed. |
| Crust |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:23:34
I'm hoping we see at least one of the Ranger's Three in Swords of Eveningstar. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 23:36:47
No offense, but how did you misinterpret my post? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 08:07:04
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't know if you're talking to me, but in case you think I was putting the Rangers Three down, I wasn't. Quite the opposite.
Oh.. well carry on then! :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 04:20:36
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hmph! I loved the Rangers Three and wish we'd get more of them!
I don't know if you're talking to me, but in case you think I was putting the Rangers Three down, I wasn't. Quite the opposite. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 03:59:01
Hmph! I loved the Rangers Three and wish we'd get more of them! |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 02:54:42
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
The Last Mythal series really takes me back to my first experiences with Spellfire, Shadow of the Avatar, and other Greenwood greats that, for me, showcase the Realms as they truly are.
Really?
At least Greenwood's characters and stories have some semblance of joy and personality to them. I haven't found much of that in this book so far. Honestly, I can't imagine a series more different from Shadow of the Avatar--The Rangers Three said things besides "I have a bad feeling about this." See my comments in the Book Club thread, if you're interested. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 23:34:04
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I like the idea of the elves Return. It allows for more drama in the future. The elves have retaken Myth Drannor! That's incredible. I also really appreciated the glimpse of the future at the end. Ilsevele as Coronal, wielding the Ruler's Blade as a scepter... Very nicely done.
I hated looking into the future, for a couple of reasons. Nothing will be a surprise now, it's much like the situation we have with Drizzt and the Silver Marchs. We know what happens to the nations but it happening in the novels is no where in site.
It's the exact opposite here. It happens in the novels, and the supplements and the rest of the Realms won't be there for another 5 years or more... assuming WOTC lasts that long...
quote:
Another thing that I REALLY appreciated about this series is the perspective it gives for FR DMs. The series is a great companion for anyone's FR campaign. There's so much fantastic Realmslore, of course, but there are also a lot of things happening in the novel that could also be happening at an epic or near-epic gaming table. The fashioning of mythals and the dabbling in epic spellcasting. Confrontations with hordes of fiends and an arch-fiend (Malkazid). A detailed military campaign involving humans, elves, (no dwarves, sadly  ), demons, devils, yugoloths, and fey'ri. The execution of large-scale battles involving high-level magic, fiends, flying creatures, etc. Such great food for any campaign, and a great role-playing reference as well.
Yes, plenty of reference material, but absolutely no gaming material with no supplemental support. The worse part is the supplement that just came out doesn't even include any of the changes that just happened in the novel.
I enjoyed the series, but I just hate how the continue to mismatch their novels and supplements.
|
| Crust |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 23:17:21
I just finished Final Gate, and I absolutely loved it! It was an easy read. I couldn't put it down.
I understand about the "paper doll" characters. One could say that characters like Nesterin and Donner were just "NPCs" with no depth. I've heard the same idea come up with the Rogue Dragon books AND City of Splendors. Though I do understand those feelings, and even though I might share them to a degree, I didn't care one bit. I could tell the difference between them without having to be given names, so I had no major gripes about that. I don't necessarily expect whatever it is people are expecting in these novels.
I loved the characters. Araevin and his "party," so classic. Severil, Fflar, Ilsevele, Selkirk, Sarya, Xalph, MALKAZID... The moments with Scylua and Fzoul... Slam DUNK! Scylua's maiming of that beholder was an awesome scene. We need a whole novel dealing with her. Scylua vs. Alusair. Make it happen.
The quests were solid in my book. The portal journeys... Lorosfyr (nice reference to Underdark... I looked it up immediately ), the Barrens (which was a real treat, since I've taken my PCs to that plane), and the Waymeet were all so vivid in my mind. I also really enjoyed the military campaign. Final Gate's battles just about matched those from Death of the Dragon (which were utter gore fests), and the great battle through the streets of Myth Drannor was just so epic not only on a power level but on a Realmsfan level as well. It was just a great moment.
I like the idea of the elves Return. It allows for more drama in the future. The elves have retaken Myth Drannor! That's incredible. I also really appreciated the glimpse of the future at the end. Ilsevele as Coronal, wielding the Ruler's Blade as a scepter... Very nicely done.
I liked how the main foes were killed or banished. Some concrete finality! I was pleased that Sarya didn't slink away to fight another day. I loved how Fflar bested Xalph with such ease, and Araevin's defeat of Sarya was great.
Araevin's spellcasting was immaculate! I loved every moment of his high magic casting. I have such a statuesque, stately, rigidly powerful image of him. He's great. I also appreciated how he and Ilsevele closed the book on their relationship. Araevin choosing (consciously or unconsciously) magic over love reminds me of Raistlin for some reason, and I like that. Fflar and Ilsevele falling for each other so quickly... even they knew it was odd. No complaints here.
Sev's death was sad but still cool. It's true, he knew he was going to die, but it wasn't hand-fed to us or beaten to death. I liked that a lot. I still LOVE the fact that he actually resurrected Fflar. I'm still stunned by that.
Another thing that I REALLY appreciated about this series is the perspective it gives for FR DMs. The series is a great companion for anyone's FR campaign. There's so much fantastic Realmslore, of course, but there are also a lot of things happening in the novel that could also be happening at an epic or near-epic gaming table. The fashioning of mythals and the dabbling in epic spellcasting. Confrontations with hordes of fiends and an arch-fiend (Malkazid). A detailed military campaign involving humans, elves, (no dwarves, sadly ), demons, devils, yugoloths, and fey'ri. The execution of large-scale battles involving high-level magic, fiends, flying creatures, etc. Such great food for any campaign, and a great role-playing reference as well.
The Last Mythal series really takes me back to my first experiences with Spellfire, Shadow of the Avatar, and other Greenwood greats that, for me, showcase the Realms as they truly are. I definitely consider Last Mythal required reading.
|
| BobROE |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 03:37:53
I generally liked it, even though it got wrapped up far too quickly. And I felt it was better than the last book of RotD (Ruin?). However I really could have done without the last chapter (epilogue?), cause it looks the future of the realms into a particular course, something I feel could be better detailed in source books rather than novels. Also I don't really like that sembia occupies the dales for a good chunk of 1375, which goes against what I like about the dales. But what you going to do? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:18:15
Btw,
The demons/devils hating each other actually came out long before Planescape. It was detailed way back in 1e and so to claim it's a Planescape event shows ignorance. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 13:54:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The whole demons servicing together with devils thing doesnt worry me Ive always though of the whole planescape/blood war thing as being rather stupid. Arch devils and Demon Princes arent stupid (Stat wise most have Inteligences in the High 20s and would realse that the Blood war is costly waste of resources)
I would think that there are quite a few Arch Devils and far more Demon Princes in Hell and Abyss that some take great importance and pride in fighting the Blood war while others more like to scheme against their own kind and jet others - as in this case - servicing together (at least until some point later in time where one group is trying to overthrough the other, most likley! ).
So I have no problem with such a constillation eiter, even though it is a little odd to the conservative gamer at first.
Ergdusch
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 13:40:57
Just finished it!
and I enjoyed it
I love that evil at least won in some small way ie Zhentil Keep claiming Hillsfar (Although this makes Mysteries of the Moonseas even less useful 
This imagine should mean Scyllua Darkhopes recruitment penalty in Powers of Faerun should be changed after all the Zhents have just toppled an enemy who has oppossed them for decades
The whole demons servicing together with devils thing doesnt worry me Ive always though of the whole planescape/blood war thing as being rather stupid. Arch devils and Demon Princes arent stupid (Stat wise most have Inteligences in the High 20s and would realse that the Blood war is costly waste of resources)
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 02:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Arguing, suggesting, implying, commenting, same words for the same action.
Not really. Think what you want though--it's not my concern.
|
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 12:16:34
I expected nothing less, but it is gratifying that there are plans in the works to fill in some of the blanks. Though how they can fill in a 5 year hole that jumps forward past the current date without straight-jacketing everyone who comes after is an interesting thought. I look forward to seeing what they come up with. |
| monch9 |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 08:21:00
Sorry for being vague, the reference to missing time above is the 5 years between the last chapter and the epilogue.
Monch |
| monch9 |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 08:19:16
Hi All,
I don't know if this is the right place to put it. A heads up for 2007, in the "boards that shall not be named", Rich Baker wrote :
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
You might see some more detail on the "missing time" (and we did that quite deliberately) filled in during the back half of 2007. Can't say more than that now.
Monch |
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