| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:19:01
Direct from the Heroes' thread. Basically a discussion of what should have been done in this war, where the screw ups on both sides are, and what could have been corrected.
I think that its important not to underestimate the limitations of resources, the issues of mindset, and also causally dumping the genius of enemies themselves.
In the case of Silverymoon, the issue comes up that what you're pointing out IS necessary if they need to secure the peace. Obould's Crusade (for lack of a better term for the holy war he's conducting) is the nightmarish worst case scenario that everyone in the Silver Marches has feared from the beginning of the settlement. A concentrated uprising of the Native peoples against the settlers. I think a good example is essentially a Tecumseh unification that potentially has the power to repulse the human enroachment in their lands.
Though a Chosen, its my belief Alustriel is accurate in the fact that there's no way to stop Obould's forces if they're directly engaged and that Drizzt's idea to gradually widdle them down while striking at the unity behind the religious figure of Obould is the only way to stop him. In effect, outlive the Orc and watch the kingdom descend to anarchy. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 11:24:43
Correct but Obould is more inclined to have slave labour working for his economy than orcs, for orcs would not stand for such roles other than roles in battle. I think he is more likely to get slave labor through capturing slaves and forcing them to work. He can turn to the Shadovar or the Zhents(Zhents have plenty of loopholes and not reliable), but the Shadovar are eager for vengeance against those who will deny their heritage and their right, so I expect the Shadovar would pinch their noses and negotiate terms with Obould for some purpose that will ultimately benefit the Shadovar. I believe Obould see the Shadovar as reliable and trustworthy allies(at least what the Shadovar want Obould to see them as), for Shadovar aid can really benefit Obould's forces greatly against the Silver Marches.
Orcs to me are not willing to stoop to doing crafting and farming etc, they believe they are born for battle and die in battle as their religion preaches, so doing such work is quite an insult to them. |
| Chyron |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 11:09:26
quote:
Obould know better than to allow evil groups like the Zhents to come in to teach them how to trade and set up a economy as the evil groups may attempt to manipulate or even threaten the orcs through their own orcish economy if the orcs grow too dependent on these evil groups for economic advice. I am certain Obould is smart enough to know how to manage an economy, but orcs don't make good traders nor economists, for they are more interested in when's the next fight coming than think about gold.
Right, this is my point. You see Obould can't do it all himself. He needs help to change the Orc culture. And I would argue that he is smart enough to know this. He needs craftsman to teach the orc craftmanship or other skills (orc farmers, skinners, fisherfolk, smiths, whatever) so that they can produce a viable economy.
Imagine Orc's becoming skilled as hunters and or livestock handlers. With overland control and taming of some forest regions, they could trade common overland meats with the other races of the Underdark (which might view these as a rare delicacy)
Anyway, I am just speculating, but without help, once Obould is gone (and without an equally strong heir whom would also share Obould's vision), everything will fall back to feudalistic in-fighting.
So where could he turn? Doubtful that anyone in the region would help. I doubt that the drow or dureagar would be willing. But I could see an alliance with some of the larger outside organizations that have been seeking to gain influnce in the region. Sure, Obould would never 'trust' them, but he did not trust any of his recent allies either. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 10:03:05
quote:
Have there been any politcal maps created in Dragon, Dungeon or other source material (or even by memebers here) that show the extent of Obould's control?
Not sure, but it is believed that almost all the orc hordes of the Spine of the World are under his mob control.
quote:
His desire to establish an Orc kingdom is ambitious, but to do so would require an actual change in FR Orc culture. Learning the ways of trade and commerce of the overland races would be different from the styles of trade and business done in places they are familiar with (say the underdark, etc) would it not? Wouldn't this aslo pose a distinct opportunity for groups like the Zhentarim or the Iron Throne to come in as 'advisors' to helping Obould teach his people and set up trade (increasing their own influence in the region in the process)?
First, the orcs must have something worthy to trade first, I doubt iron ore and metal ore would sell much unless in massive quantities at a price better than the already established compeititors, even so metal ore are mined by some kingdoms privately. The orcs don't have much magical items to trade either as not all of them are magicians and they lack the vital raw materials to make useful marketable products that can be sold into the market. Also, there isn't enough orcs that are worth the salt of a group of master craftsmen.
Secondly, Obould know better than to allow evil groups like the Zhents to come in to teach them how to trade and set up a economy as the evil groups may attempt to manipulate or even threaten the orcs through their own orcish economy if the orcs grow too dependent on these evil groups for economic advice. I am certain Obould is smart enough to know how to manage an economy, but orcs don't make good traders nor economists, for they are more interested in when's the next fight coming than think about gold. |
| Chyron |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 07:27:40
I have a few questions related to this topic. They may have been discussed elsewhere, but my search turned up nothing, so if they have I do apologize.
Have there been any politcal maps created in Dragon, Dungeon or other source material (or even by memebers here) that show the extent of Obould's control?
His desire to establish an Orc kingdom is ambitious, but to do so would require an actual change in FR Orc culture. Learning the ways of trade and commerce of the overland races would be different from the styles of trade and business done in places they are familiar with (say the underdark, etc) would it not? Wouldn't this aslo pose a distinct opportunity for groups like the Zhentarim or the Iron Throne to come in as 'advisors' to helping Obould teach his people and set up trade (increasing their own influence in the region in the process)? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 12:04:25
Hmm...that is the problem with orcs, they simply don't label numbers to the royal heirs carrying the same name such as in the case of Azoun 1, 2, 3, 4. At least that might be easy to distinguish, this is simply another sign that orcs don't know mathematics or they simply want to keep up the mystery and legend but this won't help them much in the long run.
If the Illithids did not appear in the Hunter Blades Trilogy, I suspect the prime reason was that they were not willing to fight dwarves given their experience with rebel duergar who simply outgrew their psionic grasp so it pays to learn from the past. But the Illithids are sure to join the Army of Many Arrows in the campaign against the Silver Marches especially with a confident wise leader at the front and well updated intelligence reports on the Silver Marches Confederate forces, it is simply too attractive to throw away the offer to the illithids.
I can think of a many reasons why the illithids wanna join the war but there are simply three simple prime reasons they can't resist this new venture.
1) If the Army's crusade is successful, the Illithids can demand their share of their loot and slaves. Loot in terms of magic, gold and other useful items would enhance their magical fighting power. Slaves in the bountiful would be too irresistable for the Silvaerens would serve as delicious dinner, slave workers and gladiators especially with so many intelligent people around. Lastly, more hosts to boost the illithid race.
2) Their long desire to conquer the surface world.
3) Raw materials that cannot be acquired from the underdark such as certain rare spell components.
But the illithids serving in Obould's force would be Obould's main wild card because of the Illithids' notorious psionic abilities and shockwave attack but they can be a weak link in Obould's army whereby there may be elements in Obould's army who would pay a hundred gold just to get the chance to beat up an illithid officer they don't like or if the Silvaerens are wise enough, they can pay a cabal of necromancers and techsmiths to assemble an army of Undead and Mindless fighting constructs which are virtually immune to the illithid influence to serve as anti-illithid units as well as heavy support units. Removal of the illithid units during the inital fighting would remove Obould's truimph card and weaken the enemy force by a fair chance, allowing the defenders' spellcasters and fighters to concentrate better on the enemy for it is pretty well known what an illithid's shock attack can do the front lines and wizards, and if it happens, the Silvaeren army may be decimated.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 03:42:56
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, folks, the Obould of today is not the Obould from back in the day. There have been many Oboulds. The current one is just the latest in a long line. The first Obould may have enjoyed the support of perytons and illithids and other nastybads, but thus far, we've not seen any of these critters paying the current Obould the slightest bit of attention.
Which is why I posted the URL for Tom's article on Many Arrows in the other scroll.
The illithid connection is interesting though. They're usually not the type of "allies" one can just abandon easily, unless of course they would wish it so. And while the flayers may not have an *active* interest in the doings of the current Obould and his plans... it's entirely possible that they may, at the very least, have maintained some measure of contact and/or interest from their past connection, with the events of Many Arrows in case the actions of Obould and his orc horde would ever present them with an opportunity.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 03:26:23
Again, folks, the Obould of today is not the Obould from back in the day. There have been many Oboulds. The current one is just the latest in a long line. The first Obould may have enjoyed the support of perytons and illithids and other nastybads, but thus far, we've not seen any of these critters paying the current Obould the slightest bit of attention. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 03:12:48
Ah . . . to keep throwing fuel on the fire . . . according to the link that Sage kindly provided me, Obould may not still have the illithid support he once had (according to the link to what Tom Costa wrote, the illithids specifically were allied to Obould I), but he might be attracting Monks of the Long Death . . .
Again, not mentioned as of yet in any novels. |
| scererar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 03:08:44
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
[quote]
For Silverymoon's military forces, they may have the superior armor, weapon, magic advantage with mythal and Alustriel but can't help feeling that Silverymoon's forces are a bit outgunned by King Obould's allied army.
where does it state this??? according to the trilogy, nothing pertaining to outgunned was even stated. It seemed to me, more political than anything else. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2006 : 02:00:10
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, actually, if they had all been mentioned, it wouldn't be hard to see why he is a threat to Silverymoon and the Silver Marches . . . orcs, trolls, frost giants, human wizards, perytons, and illithids . . . oh my.
Hmm...interesting, the fact that King Obould had the assistance of such unique creatures can be a great advantage to his melee standard armies and a edge over the more conventional armies of Silverymoon.
Orcs as melee fighters, trolls as melee shock troops, giants as artillery units, illithids on standby as anti-spellcaster units and intelligence officers and providing extra recruits and human renegade wizards all the more dangerous. What he lack is beholders for serious heavy support role and anti-magic support. If King Obould can coordinate the various elements of his formidable military into a cohesive military force, the Army of Many-Arrows would rival the military force gathered by the phaerimm against Evereska. For Silverymoon's military forces, they may have the superior armor, weapon, magic advantage with mythal and Alustriel but can't help feeling that Silverymoon's forces are a bit outgunned by King Obould's allied army. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 23:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, actually, if they had all been mentioned, it wouldn't be hard to see why he is a threat to Silverymoon and the Silver Marches . . . orcs, trolls, frost giants, human wizards, perytons, and illithids . . . oh my.
Grin. The Oh My made me laugh. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 23:43:06
Yeah, actually, if they had all been mentioned, it wouldn't be hard to see why he is a threat to Silverymoon and the Silver Marches . . . orcs, trolls, frost giants, human wizards, perytons, and illithids . . . oh my. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 23:36:00
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In my research trying to find out about what the heck happened to old King Graul of the Ice Mountain orcs, I did run across a passage about Obould in Volo's Guide to the North. According to this passage, Obould had evil human wizards and illithids as allies, though these could just be "Volo rumors" and these allies have never specifically been mentioned in any novels either, though his allies among Frost Giants, Trolls, and Drow shows that he must be more diplomatic than most orcs, even before the ritual that the priests of Grummsh performed on him.
It seems he has a lot of allies then that have never been mentioned in the tales. :( Humans, illithids, perytons, and others. Sigh. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 23:30:15
In my research trying to find out about what the heck happened to old King Graul of the Ice Mountain orcs, I did run across a passage about Obould in Volo's Guide to the North. According to this passage, Obould had evil human wizards and illithids as allies, though these could just be "Volo rumors" and these allies have never specifically been mentioned in any novels either, though his allies among Frost Giants, Trolls, and Drow shows that he must be more diplomatic than most orcs, even before the ritual that the priests of Grummsh performed on him.
It also mentions that Obould was always very careful to make sure his shamans were happy with him, and threw huge feasts for his orcs on orc deity holy days, at least while he was ruling from the Citadel of Many Arrows.
Oh, and he is suppose to be bald. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 03:55:35
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
How is the greater good served by the fall of a bastion of good? 
For the greater good of the future or her future, yes. The races of the light and the people of Silverymoon need a rude awakening to shake them up to the true threat posed to them, to remove the veil of impregnability and complacency from the eyes of the people of the Silver Marches and Silverymoon. Also, for the orcs and Obould's legacy would be considered a great threat in the future and since no one is willing to go erase them from existence, the fall of Silverymoon would remind the future generations of their predecessors failure and complacency that had led to their defeat and the city fall, hence these future generations of the races of the light will learn from their forebears' mistakes and take more proactive measures to defeat and destroy the orcs. Sometimes, harsh measures must be taken to ensure the future of the greater good.
Seeing Nesmé wiped out, Mithril Hall temporarily closed off, and a orc kingdom springing up isn't enough of a rude awakening?
And why do you say no one is willing to take on the orcs? Taking on a numerically superior, heavily entrenched enemy is not the best way to win battles -- but it is a very good way to send a lot of your own soldiers to a quick death.
Taking down Obould's forces is going to take either an incredible amount of manpower (likely more than can be found in the Silver Marches!), or some very careful manuevering over a long period of time.
Besides, it's not like this tale is told. At some point, RAS will come back to it, and we will likely see Obould's fall then. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:11:59
Problems with this theory: There's no evidence of Silverymoon being complacent. They have weathered harsh trials, such as the recent assault of demons from Hellgate Keep, and it would be very strange if they were complacent. Their leaders are only too aware of the threat of the orc hordes, which have come down scores of times in Alustriel's living memory, and which return however many leaders or armies are wiped out. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
How is the greater good served by the fall of a bastion of good?
For the greater good of the future or her future, yes. The races of the light and the people of Silverymoon need a rude awakening to shake them up to the true threat posed to them, to remove the veil of impregnability and complacency from the eyes of the people of the Silver Marches and Silverymoon. Also, for the orcs and Obould's legacy would be considered a great threat in the future and since no one is willing to go erase them from existence, the fall of Silverymoon would remind the future generations of their predecessors failure and complacency that had led to their defeat and the city fall, hence these future generations of the races of the light will learn from their forebears' mistakes and take more proactive measures to defeat and destroy the orcs. Sometimes, harsh measures must be taken to ensure the future of the greater good. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 11:21:25
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
How is the greater good served by the fall of a bastion of good? |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 09:50:35
Well I think Silverymoon had become stagnant and had not faced a serious siege for a long time, for centuries since the last combat it faced, it had been considered a haven for learning and refuge, but eventually such places must fall.
The divinities of Toril are near-constant, almost constant and one doesn't find dozens of dead gods raining from the skies everyday, in my estimation, it might happen once every ten milleniums or so but even a god passes away, Lord Ao may intervene such as in the case of Torm the God of Duty. Therefore the pantheon is always almost constant, unchanging but mortals come and go.
Hmm, it was true that Evermeet was attacked by forces inspired by by evil forces but other than Angharradh fighting the Elder Evil, I didn't see Correllon manifesting to challenge lolth and Malar's Avatars. It was true that divinities sat on the throne of Mulhorand but it was also the greatest flaw of Mulhorand's defense for the defenders simply placed too much stock in their avatar kings and when their avatar kings fell, their morale and spirit was dealt a great blow and the defense faltered and hundreds got slain. The deities may fade but Silverymoon is merely a tree among the whole forest to the gods, and the gods have followers-sizable-enough elsewhere and to them the loss of one tree is nothing compared to the loss of the whole forest. If the gods are to even secretly lend aid to their followers, then even the opposing gods would lend aid to their own as well. This would encourage a dependency habit that the gods overtime will be annoyed and tired of it. No, the gods want worthy thinking self-reliant faithful followers and Silverymoon defenders must prove themselves as worthy followers through trial by fire no matter what happens even in the face of defeat.
If divine intervention were to be invoked for the defense of Silverymoon, the gods are highly unlikely to do that as some do not wish to run afoul of Ao's laws and many simply do not want to earn the hatred of more enemies than what they can face say Selune doesn't want to fight Gruumsh as she have enough enemies to deal with. Example, if Moradin avatar beat Gruumsh avatar at the Battle of the Silver Marches today, the next day, Gruumsh would persuade Talona or Yutrus to spread plague and pestilence among the dwarves or get his orcs go into vengeance fit and kill dwarves in retaliation, and Moradin suffers for his earlier action through the loss of hundreds of followers, if Moradin did not fight Gruumsh avatar, then perhaps he would had lost a fraction of his followers in the Battle of the Silver Marches compared to the loss of hundreds of followers. Sometimes, divine assistance cannot be relied upon. Also, divine sneaky aid will be scented out by the alert ones and vengeance will rain on the one who supplied divine sneaky aid.
Silverymoon is like Myth Drannor, for to the mortals, it is a grand place of great glory and they will mourn and grieve for its loss. But to the gods, it is merely a passing memory in their immortal lives and the gods don't mourn for their followers deaths nor do they miss this city because it was a grand city, to them it is merely a passing memory in their immortal lives. For they know even if Silverymoon falls, there will be new followers again in the future. They cannot always intervene here and there in mortal affairs as this would sure go against the inevitable changes Time brings that must happen and come, also may go against what is beyond their stated duties and these may very well oppose Ao's law.
Even the gods cannot always oppose Time for if it must happen by the dictates of Time, even the gods must bow to the harsh cold power of Time and accept the changes that Time brings. I am sure Lord Ao knows this as well.
Mystra cannot always defend her own Chosen for she knows that her children must learn to stand again through self-reliance after they had fallen and not rely on divine aid and that one day every single Chosen must fade away. Even Gruumsh knows this cold truth, that's why the gods are never willing to show or tell their followers when they are going to die, for it would cause even the most faithful to falter in their faith.
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:57:08
I don't got much to add except this: Monster's of Faerun, in the Peryton entry, says Obould has a alliance with these beasts. Most odd that that has never been expanded on. :) |
| MaskedOne |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 04:50:16
Truth is itself, be that a cold, hard sword, a rally call that can provide hope and rally an army, or simply the careful words of a friend that shatter despair and ease pain because those words are true and known to be true. Truth remains itself. It is also being applied too easily here considering that the we are talking about a world where divine intervention is commonplace. The gods may or may not intervene.
Divinities sat on the throne of Mulhorand for most of its history. They actively defend Evermeet, one of the dwarven pantheon is fading in large part because of all the effort he puts into shielding dwarven settlements, Lolth was directly involved in helping assault Evermeet, divinities aided but did not save Myth Drannor, the list of points where gods move directly in mortal affairs is long and varied. So is the list of points where there actions do not grant a complete victory or they simply don't act. Their intervention or lack there of in the affairs of Silverymoon is not predictable one way or another. It serves a purpose for many and as such may earn defense but it can also serve a purpose as a legend to inspire future generations. Personally, I think if it comes under siege in the near future then it will probably gain a great deal of defense. Give it a couple centuries, let it grow stagnant and there will be some intervention but like Myth Drannor it will fall and its idealized legend will become a tool to inspire future generations. Yes, all things of the mortal world may change or pass with time but that time is not necessarily now. There is even in divine matters, a time and place for everything and I do not think it is quite time to let Silverymoon fade but then again I'm not a divinity and I can't predict them any better than the rest of the world.
Hmm, out of curiosity, how are the divinities of Toril constant? They last longer than some mortal civilizations sure but there is history of dead and lost gods to argue against them being too constant. |
| silverpriestess |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:54:43
I agree with Shadovar's explanation. Like all the past great empires and cities of the past, they all had great beginnings and I am certain many were dedicated to the great gods and even so, these empires and great cities also fell into the dust eventually as the gods watch. Hence, no matter how great and glorious and important Silverymoon may be to the gods, eventually it must fall and nothing can stop the sands of Time from doing it.
The gods are constant and true, mortals come and go as time passes, the loss of Silverymoon will be a great loss of followers but they also know that the loss of one forest doesn't equal the loss of the entire world, so it is no big deal to them so long they have followers who believe in them. Hence they the gods are not likely to intervene in Silverymoon's defense be it there are ten thousand Chosen of Mystra hiding there, they won't and that sure. Yes, the truth is painful and cold but no one can disagree the power of truth that the truth is mighty and shall prevail.
Furthermore they want followers who are independent and truely believing in their faiths even to the end in the face of overwhelming odds. They want worthy followers and not followers who are weak and turn to them in the face of overwhelming odds, if so, then the gods' teachings are simply a great waste of effort on the gods' part. So to them, if Silverymoon falls, so be it. If Silverymoon stands, so be it, for the sands of Time bring changes that are for both good and ill. The gods are gods and not protective parents, hence there is a limit to the extent they care for their followers and children, if the gods are to protect their followers against that enemy and so on, then that defeats the purpose of having mortal followers and teaching them the dogma of the gods. For the mortals who are followers of the gods are expected to live and die by the teachings of their gods.
As holy Silverymoon may be to the gods, but it is still a city of stone and flesh, what is holy inside the city? The temples? the clerics? the followers? the holy blessings on the city? Silverymoon is considered holy in the eyes of the mortals only, but it is not considered holy in the eyes of the gods who know that the city is merely a non-living thing and nothing more. What makes the city holy is the faith of the citizens inside the city, who believe in their gods, and that is what makes the city holy and this is how the gods view it.
So my answer for Silverymoon is plain simple. The gods will not intervene and they will not aid in the defense of the city directly or indirectly other than keeping their clerics powers going. Everything is up to the mortals to decide for themselves, and whether Silverymoon stands or falls depends on the will of Time and Fate. I say Silverymoon is doomed for sure and if this is true, nothing can change that and even the gods must accept this truth, even if there are there are ten thousand Chosen of whatever god inside. They know that one day, their Chosen ones must fade away into the sands of Time. Obould and his army would eventually destroy Silverymoon and the Silver Marches, but eventually Obould, Chosen he may be and his mighty armies must perish and fade away into the sands of Time. For Silverymoon may be a wreck by that time, but eventually new mortals and new Chosens will rebuild the city and restore, repopulate the Silver Marches again. And again, the followers of the gods and dedication to the gods will return. Everything changes and nothing is permanent as the saying goes "Nothing is forever".
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:47:34
I think that the IMAGE of Grummsh is that of being less than intelligent because that is how his children act right now . . . BTW . . . in Deities and Demigods Grummsh is noted as having an Intelligence of 24 and Wisdom of 25. Not that I always give deity stats that much mind . . .
When the orcs came to the Realms via the Portal in the Old Empires, they came from a pretty civilized world. There is evidence of old orc kingdoms in places like Thar. The question really isn't wheather orcs CAN be intelligent and wise enough to have a "civilized" kingdom, but if they can do so again, after having lost thier kingdoms in the past. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:32:33
Avatars coming down to defend their children? Oh wow, that makes it look like Spellforce histories coming alive. Well, from what I suspect and I agree that Gruumsh may not be smart, but he have two other orc deities who can provide him with wise plans-though their loyalties to Obould is not guranteed-hence the plans may be passed on to Obould's mind through dreams or the cleric's sermons.
The drow archmages may treat orcs like slaves but they know when not to fight or snub or act arrogant when they recognize the power and intelligence of a great person like King Obould, surely they will cautiously deal with Obould. Also, drow are well known for their hatred of surface dwellers and an opportunity to capture a mythal or maybe seize one will stoke up their greed. Obould should be wise enough to know that the mythal of Silverymoon needs the great powers of enigmatic beings to damage, hence an alliance with the drow may allow him access to summon the creatures of the lower planes through drow help.
Gruumsh may act like a stupid orc god but I suspect it may be a feign and pretence, for being the head of the orc pantheon demands that he be wise and smart enough to keep the rebels in the orc pantheon at bay. An alliance with dragons is possible provided Obould can locate agents of the Dragon Cult and placate their undead masters with treasure and information as well as mercenaries. This cannot be dismissed as unlikely.
Lastly, Mystra is unlikely to come down to destroy the orc army as her actions would have very disastrous consequences on the mortal world and I am very certain she knows the dire punishments imposed on her by Lord Ao if she does that.
From what i think, the mortals are supposed to act as they will(free will) and be responsible for their own actions and destinies and that includes the Chosen. If the gods are to act like protective parents, then this would cause the mortals to be too reliant on their gods for daily needs and whatever, for the gods are to serve the mortals but that doesn't mean they should stop the mortals from being responsible for their actions and destinies.
Mystra's appearance may very well mean Shar's appearance and more would come and fight, hence a divine war occurs on the mortal plane. No, I think if Silverymoon were to fall, that's it like all the events that had happened to the past empires and cities of the past, for the gods all know that all things must have an beginning, all things must have an end and that includes Silverymoon.
Hence, to them, Silverymoon is just another passing memory for they know that again another great city that is dedicated to them will rise again and again it will fall. I am sure the gods cannot stop change from happening especially when that change is needed for the future, be it for ill or good.
Also, Obould knows that he will risk the wrath of the races of the light and even the deities sure knows this piece of cold truth as they fight among each other too.
To me, they the gods know that the balance is always maintained and they cannot always defend their children or else their children will never "grow up and learn".
So King Obould and his great orc hordes would eventually sack and destroy Silverymoon and defeat the combined allied armies of the light. But even so, Obould and his army victory will be short lived, for one day, another stronger army of the Light and those who survived the earlier war would drive them away and defeat the orc hordes and restore Silverymoon.
This way, the Silvaerens would learn what is the price of freedom and learn wisdom and learn that diplomacy and hiding in their false lies that Obould will not attack is the fastest road to defeat. If this is true, then I think this is what the gods want their children and followers to learn, learn the cold truth and gain wisdom through trials by fire. |
| Vainelus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 18:11:36
The rogue drow approached Obould, not the other way around. Their only interest was to cause havoc and had no desire to see Obould succeed especially when he proved to be more capable. All of the rogue drow had no connection to any of the drow cities, and Obould did not have contact with any drow other than the four rogues. Obould was only able to intimidate the four drow, because they had no where else they could go and by the end of the story they were working against him. I hardly think that the Matron Mothers of Menzoberranzan, or any other drow city would be willing to serve Obould. They would use and discard his forces just like the Thayans, Zhents, and Shadovar. Drow archmages would have the ability to teleport away from Obould rather than be forced into servitude like the previous rogues(who really got what they deserved all things consider). The only thing that kept the rogue drow loyal was that Obould could have killed them at any point, he would not be in this position when negotiating with a group of drow that could provide him with the magical might he requires(such as an entire city of drow, or conclave of archmages). I have little knowledge of Sharn beliefs, so I will take your word that provided Obould could find them they might work with him. Enigmatic and wise ancient wyrms have a tendenancy to be arrogant and self center, I would see such an alliance being similar to Obould’s alliance with Gerti. If Obould could best the dragon in single combat it would serve until it could retreat or arrange Obould’s death.
Gruumish is not known for his wisdom and intelligence especially when playing power politics, I think his appearance in Evermeet demonstrated this rather nicely. Deities do not constantly intervene to protect and see that their chosen succeed. It is just as likely that Mystra would appear and destroy the orcish army to protect Alustriel as Gruumish would appear to lead it. Also Silverymoon, is a holy site to many of the nature deities such as Mielikki and Lurue(who are believed to have blessed the site). If divine intervention occurs, it would probably either result in Gruumish vs. Mystra, Mielikki, Lurue and maybe even an angry Moradin/Clangeddin, or AO would tell all the deities involved that it is time to take a time out and let the mortals succeed or fail on their own merits(the more likely result). Also if we want to give Gruumish some credit for his intelligence and wisdom, he would realize that any intervention is inviting all the deities who hate him and favor the elves, dwarves, and humans of the North to intervene. |
| MaskedOne |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 18:01:44
If memory serves, Myth Drannor's mythal was weakened by the presence of high powered fiends. Silverymoon's may have the same vulnerability, it may not. Obould may or may not have access to high powered fiendish allies. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 09:42:46
Considering that Silverymoon is the prime target and prize of Obould, I think Obould would do his utmost to see that offending sight fall to the ashes. Also, I am not sure what the Army of Darkness used to weaken Myth Drannor mythal but I presumed they used superb artillery to do that.
I agree Thayans and Arcane Brotherhood would not deal with Obould and neither the Zhents would want the Lords Alliance wrath on them, but one thing sure, they do not have the resources and ability to pull such a stunt off. The Shadovar magic is too weak to affect the mythal and the Shadovar have a very low regard for orcs.
Given that Obould had some connections with rogue drow before, and now that he had the wisdom and intelligence of Gruumsh, I suspect that Obould may seek temporary deals with Underdark shady and enigmatic beings, I wouldn't be surprised if Obould secured the aid of drow archmages and sassy looking priestesses of lolth for the job, it may be possible that Obould may attempt to hire the services of Sharn(heard that some live in the deeper regions of the Underdark) or some enigmatic and wise ancient wyrm with tremendous magical power or other powerful beings that are not known widely across the realms. Who knows Gruumsh might lend a hand to help his Chosen secure the aid he needs?
If Obould manages to get the allegiances of these groups, coordinate them with his own clerics and any orc wizards or sorcerers available, Obould can come up with a sort of magical artillery to beat down the mythal of Silverymoon, because he knows the symbolic value of Silverymoon mythal to the defenders-who put their stocks on the mythal- and boost the fighting morale of his troops-by showing that everything is possible through the fall of the mythal. |
| Vainelus |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 02:24:31
Obould lacks the ability to create magical artillery and with the creative use of fly and fire ball spells(or higher level destructive spells) a small group of mages could easily prevent the non-magical siege engines from being a major factor in the fight for Silverymoon. Also the Army of Darkness was a bit more impressive than a large number of orcs and a few giant friends. I think Obould could eventually wear down the defenders of Silverymoon, but it would either take years to starve them out( due to the ability to magically resupply), or Obould would have to gain the help of Zhents, Thayans, the Arcane Brotherhood, Shadovar, or some other powerful group of mages for the magical might he requires. Even if Obould did gain the aid of one of these powerful groups of mages, they are not going to be interested in seeing Obould's army powerful after it's victory. They would more likely than not give Obould enough help that he could take Silverymoon by wearing down the Mythal at a very heavy cost of his own troops and then finish Obould off while he is weak. While Obould is smart for an orc, I do not think he stacks up to the likes of Szass Tam, Fzoul, the Princes of Shade and company. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 07:26:11
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Do Mythals necessarily protect against catapults and ballista?
It could be that Obould could just assault it from beyond and if he's content not to sack the city then he could burn it to the ground.
Perhaps yes about the mythal question but even the greatest and strongest mythal will fall and wear down under continous siege. An good example is Myth Drannor's mythal, it was the realm's strongest mythal during its glory days but eventually weakened and worn down under the continuous siege by the Army of Darkness. Silverymoon's mythal pale in comparison with the power of myth drannor's mythal, and less likely to withstand a siege where King Obould brings in powerful magical artillery. For an intelligent orc like him, he would sure know ordinary siege engines won't do much unless powered and fueled by dark magics.
The Silverymoon mythal shields the city and Obould cannot burn the city to the ground unless he seeks a way to corrupt the city's mythal, once the city's mythal had weakened and corrupted, Obould would be able to move his orcs and ordinary siege engines into the city and deal catastrohphic damage and that's when ugly street fighting will occur but Obould's horde will eventually prevail in street fighting in Silverymoon's streets as the orcs possess the attrition factor.
But I am sure Obould would seee Silverymoon as a strategic target of importance to conquer and once the capital of the Silver Marches fall, it would be a great blow to the morale and economy of the defenders of the Silver Marches and a great symbolic and military victory to Obould and swell his image to the orcs. So long the city stands, the defenders will continue to fight so Obould would maximise every possible way and resource in conquering the city. I am certain Alustriel would realize this and swell the garrison within Silverymoon by moving divisions and companies from areas that cannot be defended to boost the defense of the city. Hence in a way, it would be a fight to the death for both sides. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 01:55:28
Do Mythals necessarily protect against catapults and ballista?
It could be that Obould could just assault it from beyond and if he's content not to sack the city then he could burn it to the ground.
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