| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:19:20
From ENWorld today I saw two FR books had gotten reviews from D20 Magazine Rack's website.
Within each write up, the reviewer, Mr. Steven Creech had this to say about
Elminster's Daughter:
quote:
Will the cast of characters never end? To be honest, I had a really hard time keeping characters straight in my head. There are a lot of named secondary characters and it’s really difficult understanding their relationships to the main characters and the story
and
War of the Spider Queen: Dissolution:
quote:
Another complaint has to do with the large cast of characters. There were times when I wasn’t sure just who was who and what the relationship was that existed at that moment. You need a scorecard handy to keep them all straight despite the fact that most were minor characters
Did any scribes have difficulty with either novel?
I did not and, to quote a TV show I once liked, I'm not the brightest star in the heavens. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faraer |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 19:18:47
I wasn't joking when I said I don't think Ed's conception of the Realms distinguishes 'major' and 'minor' characters. Using a large cast of detailed characters is a preference you may not enjoy, but it isn't a weakness in any objective sense. It's a characteristic of the setting.
It may be that the Realmslore bottleneck encourages Ed to put more lore into his novels than he otherwise would. I find them all the better for it, though I appreciate that someone looking for a straightforward A to Z story might not. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 07:54:12
WOTSQ was easy for me to follow, especially having all six books.
Elminster's Daughter I enjoyed, I was able to follow the known realms characters no problem. The problem was all the detail given to the many minor characters made it hard to follow them. That sort of thing is all good in a sourcebook, but in a novel it takes away from the story and makes it hard to follow. I felt the same in Shandril's Saga (and I guess it's because it's the newer versions). I've read a plethora of realms novels and sourcebooks. All in all, i'd have to say that Ed's weakness is novels but his HUMONGOUS strength is sourcebook stuff which seems to bleed into his novels (which it shouldn't but alas it does). Ah well, no one's perfect (I could never write a novel, nor even a proper chapter). I will still read Silverfall in due time and whatever else he makes cause i'm too addicted to FR. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 14:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I can understand that Hoondatha because it's part of a trilogy. However, the two books in my original thread that the reviewer had trouble with include one starting a series, and one that I feel is capable of being read as a stand alone without reading any of the previous Elminster or Cormyr books. Although, I feel ED reads best when the latter series of books are familiar to the reader.
I do think that ED could have been somewhat confusing to someone who is not familiar with the Realms. I think it's difficult for any of us to see things from the critic's point of view, since we are all so steeped in Realms lore. Ed's love for his characters shows in his work. When these characters appear, it's like a reunion among old friends, there are no introductions, they just pick up where they left off. I see this as a strength in Ed's work, but I can understand how this could be off-putting to newcomers to the Realms. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 14:18:52
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I haven't read a Realms novel in awhile, I must confess-I'm behind.
I have sworn to read nothing but Realms novels until I have read all of them, and so far I haven't. |
| The Blue Sorceress |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 06:42:52
[quote
Did any scribes have difficulty with either novel?
[/quote]
I haven't read Elminster's daughter, but I have read Dissolution.
Were there a lot of characters? No, not really. Was it difficult to read? No, not at all. Then again, I'm an English literature major, so what's easy for me might be harder for another. Still, if this reviewer thinks complexity is a bad thing then I don't think they ought to be reviewing books. Needless complexity is a bad thing. Complexity that adds to verisimilitude is not. Naming characters and adding seemingly pointless details are what help a person drift into a totally alien world like that of a fantasy novel. Without that what's the point?
-Blue |
| Zelg of Cyric |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 06:30:08
I haven't read Elminster's Daughter yet. I have read Dissolution, and it was a wonderful novel.
There was only one FR book that I had a hard time following and it was "Elminster in Hell." I had hard time distinguishing what was one of El's memories and what was going on in the present. Eventually, I got used to it. But I must say that is was a little confusing. I think that was the effect Mr. Greenwood was going for though. Because it was unclear whether Ed knew what was memory or not when they were being ripped from him. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 17:32:49
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I haven't read a Realms novel in awhile, I must confess-I'm behind.
Hang your head in shame.  
I just haven't felt like reading swords and sorcery as of late, no matter what the actual subject matter is. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 07:00:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's me, too. I have a truly lousy sense of direction and geography... I sometimes have a hard time figuring out where stuff is in the real world! Nations, states -- those things I'm pretty good at. Local businesses? Specific streets? Forget it... 
Have you ever gone from a big city to a small town? I did and the difference in people giving directions was a big cultural shock.
quote:
So, for the Realms, I have a rough idea of where most stuff is... But it's only rough. I constantly have to look at maps to know exactly where something is.
Many of the recent novels that focused on new areas such as Lisa Smedman and Thomas M. Reid's trilogy had me consulting one or both of my FR maps.
I wonder if some of the jokes I heard from my military days transfer to the Realms...
Scene: Cormyr, a veteran war wizard and new noble lord are on top of a hill. The Lord has a map in his hand.
Lord: "I think we are lost again. This map is no help at all."
Frustrated War Wizard: "Try shaking the nearest tree mi'lord. When you look at the map again, whichever tree is shaking, that's where we are."
Noble lord cocks his head and then walks to the nearest tree, using all his might to make it shake.
Noble Lord as he looks down at the map: "Hey, it didn't work." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 06:51:57
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
But what I have noticed in Realms novels is that it's not the amount of characters that trip me up-it's the geography. Consistently. Even for places I've run 3+ games in, it still trips me up-badly.
That's me, too. I have a truly lousy sense of direction and geography... I sometimes have a hard time figuring out where stuff is in the real world! Nations, states -- those things I'm pretty good at. Local businesses? Specific streets? Forget it...
So, for the Realms, I have a rough idea of where most stuff is... But it's only rough. I constantly have to look at maps to know exactly where something is. |
| Songrimm |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 04:22:00
i must admit in wotsq i lost track of some minor characters who suddenly appeard again. i had no clue that they had been mentioned before other than that was stated. but for the main characters, no problem. perhaps thats because i have read them in german. and thats also a problem: translations suck!! 
same problem with rr martins soiaf, but there they have conveniently (sp?) but the appendix in the back.
its just there appears a character in a scene and somewhere 300 to 400 pages later he is mentioned again. and you go => whoooo?? |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 04:14:20
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I haven't read a Realms novel in awhile, I must confess-I'm behind.
Hang your head in shame. |
| Alhoon |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 03:37:13
I have never had any trouble. Of course we are all into the realms and just being here completely puts us above casual readers. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 03:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities,
Resurrected people that have new identities? Are you ser-...nevermind 
Yeah, in the wheel of time, there's a cast of characters known as "The Chosen" (self given title) or "The Forsaken" by most people. well, in the latter books, some of them that have been killed, are resurrected, as new people. new names, ne bodies, even one that was a male, is now a female.... so, it caused some stumbling at first, but was quickly figured out/understood.
Kar |
| Arivia |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 03:02:16
I'm losing track of characters...and forgetting some of them.
But then again, I'm not reading a Realms novel. I'm reading Quicksilver, by Neal Stephenson( page 659 of 916, Volume I of III).
I haven't read a Realms novel in awhile, I must confess-I'm behind.
But what I have noticed in Realms novels is that it's not the amount of characters that trip me up-it's the geography. Consistently. Even for places I've run 3+ games in, it still trips me up-badly. |
| Paec_djinn |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 01:06:58
The thing which happens to Hoondatha happens to me alot. But nonetheless, I usually don't re-read it as usually the previous story will suddenly appear in my head. If worse comes to worst, I just need to flip through the pages of the previous book but nothing beyond that. I usually only re-read if I'm bored. I prefer new stuff to old ones.
I've only read Dissolution out of the two books from Creech's reviews but it didn't really cause me much trouble. Once in awhile I had to flip back to check who the secondary characters were. That also was the Baenre spy who spied on the Ched Nassads. I believe her name was Waerva and she had a long absence from the story to actually really be remembered.
So I don't think that FR books have caused any trouble with me. The only book I've read so far with this trouble is Black Hawk Down, but that book's problem is because of neccessary reasons. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 23:40:47
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I very quickly realised I needed to reread Sapphire Crescent.
I can understand that Hoondatha because it's part of a trilogy. However, the two books in my original thread that the reviewer had trouble with include one starting a series, and one that I feel is capable of being read as a stand alone without reading any of the previous Elminster or Cormyr books. Although, I feel ED reads best when the latter series of books are familiar to the reader. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 23:33:50
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And if you want a series where everyone gets resurrected over and over again, bad guys as well as good guys, try Katherine Kerrs Deverry-series.
Every bad guy does not come back in the wheel of time. Only the Forsaken even have this slimm chanse. And if they get hit by Balefire, not only their bodies but their souls get destroyed as well, so they can`t come back. Does anyone here who is reading the wheel of time know if there is a spell in FR that acts a bit like Balefire?
I don't think I said every bad guy comes back in WoT dear. Although, technically, everyone in that series that doesn't get balefired comes back sooner or later. Anyway, enough of this non-FR talk before a certain moderator decides a tap of his staff will be in order. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 23:15:08
An amusing story that's somewhat related to the topic: Yesterday I finally started reading Ruby Guardian. I've had it for a while, but haven't had time to actually start it. I was fine for the first few pages where a new villian was introduced and a couple of nameless people got slaughtered, but then the first chapter began. And there were four recurring characters (a couple of villians and a couple of innocents), and I realised I didn't have a clue who any of them were.
I very quickly realised I needed to reread Sapphire Crescent. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:22:26
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
But notecards are also quite cheap, and fit neatly in the back of books too. And post-it notes.
Cheers
Exactly what I've been utilizing with the last couple of FR novels I have been eagerly anticipating. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 22:18:10
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know that's why novels usually have a couple blank pages at the end? To take notes. Wizards usually fills up those pages with ads, but you look into more classic literature and whatnot and you'll find a plethora of blank pages. That's what notetaking's for!
Write? In my books? My precious books!
That's what I was thinking. Eeeeeeeee gods! No farking way!
Bah! That's what pencils and disappearing ink are for.  And in the latter case, you get to re-experience a novel totally anew (and commensurately blank on the characters) when the ink's gone. Charming.
But notecards are also quite cheap, and fit neatly in the back of books too. And post-it notes.
Cheers |
| khorne |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 20:40:34
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And if you want a series where everyone gets resurrected over and over again, bad guys as well as good guys, try Katherine Kerrs Deverry-series.
Every bad guy does not come back in the wheel of time. Only the Forsaken even have this slimm chanse. And if they get hit by Balefire, not only their bodies but their souls get destroyed as well, so they can`t come back. Does anyone here who is reading the wheel of time know if there is a spell in FR that acts a bit like Balefire? |
| Snotlord |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 18:58:48
Well, I can see what the reviewer is talking about. I too had some problem keeping track of the minor characters Ed threw at me in Elminster's Daughter.
That said, I read it over a longer period while reading other books as well, so I can't really blame Ed. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:36:23
And if you want a series where everyone gets resurrected over and over again, bad guys as well as good guys, try Katherine Kerrs Deverry-series. |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 15:35:22
 And here I've been reccomending the FR-books as "easy-to-read" books to friends that aren't to comfortable with reading English. Guess everything's relative eh? |
| khorne |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 13:00:37
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities,
Resurrected people that have new identities? Are you ser-...nevermind
Yep, a couple of bad guys who got killed were brought back by putting their spirits into bodies. Of course, if they die again, their boss is going to(if this was FR) make them envy the False and the Faithless. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 06:03:44
I myself did not have this problem at all. FR novels often have very unique characters with different attributes, styles, etc, because this was how authors tried to distinguish themselves from other FR authors. I find that FR novels are the easiest to remember with names or identites of a character.
In fact, even the Return of the Archwizard trilogy, with like over a score of different characters (with a dozen different princes of Shade), it was not that hard to remember or figure out.
I find that complaining about a large cast of characters is stupid with FR novels, because the Realms is such a large place with so many different NPCs. It is through the creations of such characters that keep the Realms interesting and alive. If every novel only had one character named Bob, sure it would be easy to "keep track" of characters, but would you really want to read the book? |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:36:55
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities,
Resurrected people that have new identities? Are you ser-...nevermind |
| Karesch |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:35:00
Am currently about to delve into the 10th book for the Wheel series, and so far, I haven't had much if any trouble keeping things straight. The only thing that I think I stumbled on, was some of the ressurrected people, who now have new identities, but even that was barely of note. as for FR novels, never had a problem with them. Keeping 10-20 characters straight in a novel isn't hard to me, I mean, u need that many just to make a novel I thought... They tend to get kinda dull if it's just 2-3 people interacting with eachother, and noone else? I mean, that's fine for a short story, but for a Novel, (to me, something exceeding 200pages), that much book, about a couple people interacting with eachother, would tend to feel pointless I think. But yeah, can't say I've ever had a problem with FR novels... or any others I can think of off the top of my head.
Kar |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
To be honest, I think I've been reading Realms books for so long it's become imprinted in my psyche. Makes it easy to deal with Realms names (though I still can't *write* them to save my life... ).
Which is why I said Elminster's Daughter may be a problem. There are just a few *snickers* of Ed's characters in there and if you aren't up on your Realms lore you're going to be lost because it doesn't waste space on half a page of backstory. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 04:39:08
I still haven't read ED (is it out in paperback yet? Much as I like Ed, I don't have the money for hardcovers...), but I haven't had any problems with the WotSQ books.
About the only TSR book I can think of that gave me a little trouble with names was Evermeet (understandable since it's essentially 10,000+ years of history), and even that was minor. Most FR authors do a good job of making the names of character dissimilar.
To be honest, I think I've been reading Realms books for so long it's become imprinted in my psyche. Makes it easy to deal with Realms names (though I still can't *write* them to save my life... ). |
