| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 22:14:47
I was just wondering, and part of this goes back to the old way that the novels section was arranged at WOTC site, but it seems like everyone considers Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and R A Salvatore the MAJOR Realms authors.
While I love these three, Troy has been in on almost every major RSE to come down the pike, and I personally have liked a lot of his stories (though none of his Realms stuff touches the Prism Pentad books that he did in Dark Sun). |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 16:04:22
Thanks to Winterfox and WR for honest replies. I thought for sure I'd get entirely "oh, no everything would be the same" replies. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 07:47:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I understand the desire to defend him. However, I don't think the majority of posters have criticized TD for his books lacking Realms flavor as you describe above.
Now, to really stir the pot. I wonder would TD be getting as much criticism as he currently is were he to be posting at Candlekeep?
Almost certainly not. I think even the (comparatively mild) complaints about Drizzt wouldn't come up as frequently, either, had RAS posted here regularly. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 23:03:41
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I have to defend Troy a bit here . . . I know I haven't always liked all his books or all parts of a given book . . . but Troy is much more a Realms author than some of the one shot drek books we got back in the nineties. Books that might use one city name from a map and then otherwise could have been set in a random fantasy setting with almost no outside references.
I understand the desire to defend him. However, I don't think the majority of posters have criticized TD for his books lacking Realms flavor as you describe above.
Now, to really stir the pot. I wonder would TD be getting as much criticism as he currently is were he to be posting at Candlekeep?
I'd tone it down a bit, but I'd still criticize his depiction of the white hats in that trilogy.
I'd also ask for more info on Deliah The White.  |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 18:15:04
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I have to defend Troy a bit here . . . I know I haven't always liked all his books or all parts of a given book . . . but Troy is much more a Realms author than some of the one shot drek books we got back in the nineties. Books that might use one city name from a map and then otherwise could have been set in a random fantasy setting with almost no outside references.
I understand the desire to defend him. However, I don't think the majority of posters have criticized TD for his books lacking Realms flavor as you describe above.
Now, to really stir the pot. I wonder would TD be getting as much criticism as he currently is were he to be posting at Candlekeep? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 17:00:31
I have to defend Troy a bit here . . . I know I haven't always liked all his books or all parts of a given book . . . but Troy is much more a Realms author than some of the one shot drek books we got back in the nineties. Books that might use one city name from a map and then otherwise could have been set in a random fantasy setting with almost no outside references.
I have enjoyed Ruha since she first appeared, and I think she makes an interesting Harper agent. I actually like Malik as a sort of comic relief that Cyric is constantly torturing by giving him the "honor" of undertaking dangerous missions. I really liked Aris, especially since we haven't seen a lot of giants since Troy's Twilight Giants (except Gerti and her frost giants, credit where credit is due). I think that Elminster, Khelbun (in the first two books), Laeral (again, the first two books), Peirgeron, Alusair, and Vergerdahast were all treated well in the early parts of the story. In fact the final book seems to be what everyone cites as their reason for not liking the series.
I reiterate my point about the Chosen working together as a critism though. I think they would come together to plan, then break back into their power groups to help. For example, Khelbun and Laeral would go back and organize the Moonstars and the forces of Waterdeep, Alustriel would mobilize the Silver Marches resources, Storm and Dove would work to get the Dales and Cormyr going, etc.
I still think in the end there are far worse authors, both in technical abilities and in Realms flavor, and becuase of Troy we now have a pre-history of Faerun that includes a giant empire (I don't know how Ed envisioned it, but I think it makes it interesting). |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 21:18:35
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
::whince::  I must say that this particular scene really stuck in my mind as been absolutely awful and ruined the trilogy for me. I will still stand by my previous words that I did enjoy the trilogy but it was only a few weeks back when I was giving a review of this trilogy to a friend that I said that there was a terrible scene that will make you cringe 
Yes, it certainly hurt the third book for me.
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 20:53:55
Well, if you liked them, then they were good novels, for you, then -- which isn't the same as good Realms novels.
I think -- apart from sales data which I don't have -- Troy is more of a jobbing author with some Realms books whereas Ed created the Realms and Bob and Elaine made their reputation there. |
| Paec_djinn |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:53:51
I must admit that I liked the Return trilogy when I first read it, but mainly because then I was new to the realms. But after reading about this inconsistencies and such, I'm rather swayed now.
The only other Troy Denning book I've read is Waterdeep and for me the book was excellent.
For me, the main reason why Troy Denning isn't listed as major author is not because of the quality of his books, (a lot of Ed's books aren't that good either) but because of the rate in which one of his books is published.
|
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 19:29:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just to make it clear that I'm not some anti-Denning person... Parched Sea, The Veiled Dragon and Dragonwall are all books I have enjoyed. Crucible is a personal fave among Realms novels.
I read the first book of the Twilight Giants, and it simply failed to grab me. Faces of Deception struck me as utterly pointless -- I was left wondering what the point of the book was, or even if there was one.
Ahh, I forgot about Denning being the author of The Veiled Dragon, and I thoroughly enjoyed this novel also. In fact, it sticks as one of the most enjoyed of the Harpers Series for me 
I have yet to read The Twilight Giants trilogy, as I tended to leave the more confined localised novels to the end of my backlist.... which has been a mistake being as the Lost Empires series, for one, has been amazing so far!!
On the whole, from what I have read, I have enjoyed Dennings work  |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 19:26:14
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR)
Yeap, definately bad.
::whince:: I must say that this particular scene really stuck in my mind as been absolutely awful and ruined the trilogy for me. I will still stand by my previous words that I did enjoy the trilogy but it was only a few weeks back when I was giving a review of this trilogy to a friend that I said that there was a terrible scene that will make you cringe
|
| SirUrza |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 18:11:39
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Four words... Year of the Drow.
City of the Spider Queen bomb, COTSQ caused them to say no more adventures.
I blame that on marketing and the adventure itself rather than the WOTSQ series.
Like I said, Year of the Drow. Their stupid marketing campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlackquote:
Holding up the Underdark meant that there's been no real progress in what's going on down there, not the Underdark region book.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. Interesting that despite the Underdark's most powerful race being in a state of flux, it didn't stop them from publishing the Underdark region book.
No it didn't, and aside from new stats, the Underdark region book has absolutely little new information for 1372+ |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 16:27:08
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Four words... Year of the Drow.
City of the Spider Queen bomb, COTSQ caused them to say no more adventures.
I blame that on marketing and the adventure itself rather than the WOTSQ series.
quote:
Holding up the Underdark meant that there's been no real progress in what's going on down there, not the Underdark region book.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. Interesting that despite the Underdark's most powerful race being in a state of flux, it didn't stop them from publishing the Underdark region book. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 14:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
How did it hold up the Underdark? I never heard of any delay in publishing this tome. And what source do you have for the tie-in for this series and the lack of adventure modules?
Four words... Year of the Drow.
City of the Spider Queen bomb, COTSQ caused them to say no more adventures.
Holding up the Underdark meant that there's been no real progress in what's going on down there, not the Underdark region book. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 07:06:45
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
In regards to WOTSQ, I believe it to be a mistake for it to be 6 books by 6 different authors, that's JUST NOW finishing. It's completely held up the Underdark, as well as ruined us for 2 years without FR adventure modules because of the marketing strategy of the time.
How did it hold up the Underdark? I never heard of any delay in publishing this tome. And what source do you have for the tie-in for this series and the lack of adventure modules? |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 06:25:21
I'd be surprised at all if there's more then a sentence regarding Rogue dragons in either Waterdeep products.
In regards to WOTSQ, I believe it to be a mistake for it to be 6 books by 6 different authors, that's JUST NOW finishing. It's completely held up the Underdark, as well as ruined us for 2 years without FR adventure modules because of the marketing strategy of the time.
You'll notice that Shade's return has also been pretty much been dropped too.
Basically the flavor of the moment and push on. New faces/new places.
|
| Dargoth |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 06:01:15
We are getting 2 Anthalogies for Realms of Dragons in addition to the trilogy so maybe the other 2 books will have references to whats going on outside the Moonsea/Cold Lands region
I wonder if the Waterdeep source book will mention stuff thats happaning around the Sea of swords with regard to the rage |
| Crust |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 05:01:29
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I've enjoyed it thus far, but I believe it just goes along with the whole new faces/new places push. And is furthered by reeking of 3.5 supplement pimpage instead of supporting and prompting and being relevent to Forgotten Realms supplement material that progresses the setting.
I like the Dragon series a lot, but I do agree with this. It's like the Draconimicon and the Rogue Dragons books should be a complete set.
As far as it being a RSE, I'm hoping that there is some mention of a rage elsewhere in Faerun in another novel. Take the Avatar series. I found it to be very rewarding to discover that the Time of Troubles was going on simultaneously in Siege of Darkness, the Avatar Series, and part of the Shadow of the Avatar series. That's a RSE. The Rogue Dragons series doesn't seem like a RSE.
It reminds me very much of what is happening with Erevis Cale. His tale could potentially be a RSE... if he weren't around, of course. The events in the War of the Spider Queen series don't even seem like they're affecting the entire Realms. A true RSE is one whose ripples are felt in more than one series. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 02:22:02
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I've enjoyed it thus far, but I believe it just goes along with the whole new faces/new places push.
I would agree with you on that. I like The Rogue Dragons books not because of what they are about, but because of how they are done. The Rage is supposed to affect dragons all over Faerun, and it's true that we are mostly getting a view of what is happening in Damara, Impiltur, and the Moonsea. However, I'm not sure if the books would really be that much better if they had the protagonists literally scuttling all over the map of Faerun and giving us, the readers, some kind of ersatz World Tour of the Realms in disguise. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 02:02:56
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could care less about who writes the RSEs... I just want a good tale with good characters.
Me too. ;) The Rogue Dragon series is a good example of an RSE that hasn't sacrificed wonderfully realized characters for the sake of the plot--
Honestly, I don't call Rogue Dragons a RSE. For starters, IMHO, it's set in a rather dead part of Faerun. The entire part of the Realms could be raised and it wouldn't effect anyone. You can disagree with me on that point if you like, but that's how I feel.
I've enjoyed it thus far, but I believe it just goes along with the whole new faces/new places push. And is furthered by reeking of 3.5 supplement pimpage instead of supporting and prompting and being relevent to Forgotten Realms supplement material that progresses the setting.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 01:41:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could care less about who writes the RSEs... I just want a good tale with good characters.
Me too. ;) The Rogue Dragon series is a good example of an RSE that hasn't sacrificed wonderfully realized characters for the sake of the plot--indeed, a good author should be able to write both a great plot and great characters without having to sacrifice one for the other. But still, I loved the writing of Byers before I picked up the Rage; I always thought his characterization was excellent.
I like the writing of Richard Lee Byers simply because he *is* a great writer, not because his recent trilogy is about crazed dragons running rampant throughout the Realms. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:38:43
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
That stomach-riding scene sounds great, can I get a page reference?
Towards the end of the third book, when they were trying to get to Shade's mythallar. I can't recall the exact page number, and I'm not subjecting myself to that book to find it.  |
| Faraer |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:25:50
That stomach-riding scene sounds great, can I get a page reference? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:19:08
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR)
That was a really weird one... I don't know that I'd call it the worst scene, but I'm not thinking of any that are worse... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:17:22
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think the lesson is not to expect your favorite characters from other authors to be highlighted well in Troy's books.
I can deal with someone else's characters not being highlighted well. I can't deal with totally different characters with the same name and appearance, and that's what he has a habit of serving us. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 21:29:48
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR)
Yeap, definately bad. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 14:08:11
No really, you can say how you really feel . . . lol
I don't think that the Avatar Trilogy is a fair gauge of anyones writing talent because it was such a rushed, agenda driven book. Not only was it a shared world, but a shared trilogy, which creates other problems (see the threads on WOTSQ for some other thooughts on that one).
I don't think that the Archwizards books were his best work, but again there was a certain agenda behind the plot. Dispite that, there were some good moments in there and some memorable characters. I think the lesson is not to expect your favorite characters from other authors to be highlighted well in Troy's books. And don't forget Ruha is also another favorite of Troy's, and I rather like her.
In defence of Death of the Dragon, I thought the overall effort there was great, and it was becuase of BOTH authors. I love Ed, but just as I have pointed out Troy's homocidal tendancies and his willingness to "get over" on established characters, Ed's biggest shortfall seems to be just ending his books, as he tends to have 15 different power groups and half the Chosen show up for the final spellbattle and all the loose ends tie up. Keep in mind I am not saying that the whole book is that way, Ed just tends to END his books that way, and even those close to him on these threads have noticed that . . . God bless both of them I think it was a good collaboration, and I would like to reiterate these are just observations . . . I enjoy reading both their work and I couldn't do it any better . . . |
| Crust |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 12:57:00
I wouldn't consider Denning a major FR author. Sure, he's got a bunch of books under his belt, but they are all either unnecessary in the grand scheme of the Realms, or they are really, really bad.
The only FR Denning books I haven't read are the Giants books. I enjoyed Parched Sea, Veiled Dragon, Dragonwall, and even Crucible, but that's only because I read those books at the beginning of my FR "education." By the time I made it to Beyond the High Road, Death of the Dragon, and the Return series, I started to notice a nasty trend of me doing this  , this , this  , and this  whenever I read one of his books.
His tone, his portrayal of Realms characters, the events he presents... His books seem to have an air about them that is completely contrary to the rest of the Realms authors. I mean, you can literally highlight Denning's work in Death of the Dragon, because it's so glaringly uninteresting when compared to Greenwood's epic scenes. Denning's FR books are either so left of center that you really don't need to read them to understand the Realms, or they deal with an important Realms event, BUT, in that case, well-known characters are painted in a COMPLETELY different light, and the overall flow of the novel is like being dragged down a dirt hill naked: it's painful, awkward, and it's something no one needs, really.
I actually remember throwing my copy of The Sorcerer across the empty laundromat back in grad school. That whole trilogy... It was like reading a book while drunk, and events don't synch together, the details are so difficult to envision, and the character interaction just doesn't gel at all. Vala and her epic warriors leaping around, throwing their swords, slaughtering phaerimm like they're nothing, Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR), chaotic battle scenes with ONLY bugbears, mind flayers, and beholders ( ), poorly portrayed Chosen, and a fog giant? And to top it off, OF COURSE we must have another taste of Denning's Malik yn Nasser. I didn't really see a need for him other than he's Denning's personal character. I remember having absolutely no idea what the battlefield of Evereska looked like. I couldn't envision the landscape whatsoever, and every time I went back to read things over again, I got really frustrated because I STILL couldn't paint that mental image.
I'm not surprised by Denning's disappearance. If I ever did read another FR novel by him, it would only be to see how bad it is.
|
| lexxan |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 09:58:38
I think that a writer capable to make a masterpiece such as the Prisma Pentalogy deserves at least to be considered a Major writer , even if his FR novels don't reach the same greatness of the Dark Sun ones. In my opinion, very few authors have reached it so far. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 05:55:59
Have you noticed the tendancy for Interplanar rifts to appear in Shadowdale?
Bane created one that led to Loviators home plane during the Time of Troubles and Shades created a rift to the Nine Hells in the Return of the Arch Wizard series |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 05:44:38
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And to be completely honest, I was more bothered by the fact that so many of the Chosen just line up to work together in one place . . . I don't think that many of the Chosen bunched up during the Time of Troubles.
Shadow of the Avatar trilogy kinda explains WHY the Chosen had to sit back and not get involved, and the 1 time Elminster really did get involved, Ao flung him into another plane.
I admit I don't remember enjoying the parts regarding the Chosen in the last novel, and I typically do. However, you must realize they were all involved because Elminster was, once again, flung into another plane... though he could escape this time.
Hmm.. Elminster got flung into another plane in Finder Stone too. Curious. Is anyone keeping notice on this strange phenomenon? |
|
|
