| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 09:23:48
Ok I just started reading it so no spoilers please.
1) Gorstag? Shandril's Gorstag?
2) Kara is obviously more then just a bard, but in any case, maybe my memory collected more combwebs then a lich's tomb, HOWEVER, I seem to recall in Song & Sword getting the impression that the bard as an adventuring class had kinda fallen out of the way of things in the Realms. Kinda like yes there were Bards, but for the most part simple storytellers with no magical talent or adventuring usefulness (certain Silver haired sisters of renoun and prettyboy sidekicks excluded.) I also seem to remember Bard schools starting to reopen to once again and encourage the old and proper ways again torward the end of the series. Based on Kara's non-chalantness about adventuring alone and as a bard, I would assume that infact the schools have become a success and adventuring Bards are a healthy "class" again in the Realms. Are my observation whole correct (without spoiling The Rage) to this point? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 26 Dec 2004 : 14:45:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Truly, I hope you're wrong about forced product placement in novels... It's bad enough that they have the "Ten Reasons Your Character/DM/Rule Lawyer Wants This Book" bits on the website... I DO NOT want the novels I buy to become catalogs for whatever WotC has decided to sell me this week...    
Hey, I said it earlier... I was just more.. colorful.. in how I described WOTC pimping out their product. :) |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:54:34
Mainly I offer it as an explanation for why a lot of the book is very, very sound, but then parts grab me like a sumberged reef under a large-draft hull . . . .
Personally, if someone has to be blamed for it, I'd much rather blame the company and some heartless editor than someone who obviously knows the Realms so well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:47:14
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Of course, to be fair, I have to consider that some kind of quota was given for the book. Such as "use two races, at least two weapons, and at least one PrC from Races of Faerun." That would give a reasoning for some of the things. For instance, two RoF races were certainly used, the skiprocks were in full force, there's a conspicuous identification of the halfling's weapon has a must-be hornblade, and of course being able to count off bladesinger abilities.
If so, then that gives some not-inconsiderable hope for the other two books. Now that such things are shown, perhaps there'd be less focus on product placement and more on story. Unless, of course, quotas are levied for Lords of Darkness or something. 
Truly, I hope you're wrong about forced product placement in novels... It's bad enough that they have the "Ten Reasons Your Character/DM/Rule Lawyer Wants This Book" bits on the website... I DO NOT want the novels I buy to become catalogs for whatever WotC has decided to sell me this week... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 22:41:55
Of course, to be fair, I have to consider that some kind of quota was given for the book. Such as "use two races, at least two weapons, and at least one PrC from Races of Faerun." That would give a reasoning for some of the things. For instance, two RoF races were certainly used, the skiprocks were in full force, there's a conspicuous identification of the halfling's weapon has a must-be hornblade, and of course being able to count off bladesinger abilities.
If so, then that gives some not-inconsiderable hope for the other two books. Now that such things are shown, perhaps there'd be less focus on product placement and more on story. Unless, of course, quotas are levied for Lords of Darkness or something. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 21:06:56
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I'm surprised Pavel didn't turn out to be a quarter-dragon, quarter-genasi, quarter-tiefling, quarter-aasimar with a were-giraffe template or something.
Oh, come now, Winterfox! You know the were-giraffe template can't be combined with quarter-aasimars! Something about the aasimar blod nixing lycanthropy.. It's all in the Complete Book of Crunch, coming out early next year.    |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 20:35:34
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Thank you Winterfox.
You're welcome. I love that site; it's even got an entry on the infamous "my hed is pastede on yay!" in-joke (shame it doesn't have the origins noted. Ah, well, you can't have everything).
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, Winterfox, when you got Sammaster coming back from the dead outta nowhere and start the largest and deadliest dragon rage known to Faerun, anything is possible... 
Which is why my suspension of disbelief didn't completely break. I still maintain, though, that it got a bit much. I'm surprised Pavel didn't turn out to be a quarter-dragon, quarter-genasi, quarter-tiefling, quarter-aasimar with a were-giraffe template or something. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 20:04:37
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel?
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq.
Well, Winterfox, when you got Sammaster coming back from the dead outta nowhere and start the largest and deadliest dragon rage known to Faerun, anything is possible... |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 19:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Ah -- you don't read SomethingAwful? In which case, I bring you enlightenment.
Thank you Winterfox. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 18:02:23
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me.
Ah -- you don't read SomethingAwful? In which case, I bring you enlightenment. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 07:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
While a little hard to parse I will give it a try.
OMG (Invoking deity)
WTF (indication of confusion)
BBQ (?) (perhaps too much at same time)
Oh, I got it all save for the BBQ reference. But alas, perhaps some things are best left with a little air of mystery.
And speaking of mystery...
SB returning to The Rite with the CSI avariel |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:43:24
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me.
While a little hard to parse I will give it a try.
OMG (Invoking deity)
WTF (indication of confusion)
BBQ (?) (perhaps too much at same time) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:18:57
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq.
Well they are split up in the next novel. Does that help?
OMGWTFBBQ? That's a new one for me. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 05:11:53
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel?
Not with me. While I enjoyed The Rage well enough, my suspension of disbelief always teetered on the verge of shattering into tiny little bits. Avariel, yes. Half-golem, sure. Arctic dwarf, why not? Song dragon? Neat. But the probability of them being crammed into one single adventuring party? Omgwtfbbq. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Dec 2004 : 04:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
But again the Rage isn't the only one. Venom's Taste and Forsaken House are also whoring out Races of Faerun.
 An interesting way to put such sentiment.
quote:
Everything that's muchkin has become force feed to us in the accessories, now they're trying to legitimize them by putting them in novels.
So is such an attempt working with Candlekeep's scribes? Do these subjects become legitimate simply because they are used in a FR novel? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 19:10:09
It's not that I object to the inclusion of new (or at least, not-standard) races, it's just that it's a bit weird having such an assortment in one group. |
| Beowulf |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 18:55:22
Hail!
My own opinion on the novel is a bit prejuduce due to a number of ideas I've built up about Sammaster, Rages and Flights of Dragons, and the end of the Time of Dragons in my home campaign ("And Dragons Shall Rule ...").
I suppose what I liked least abouth the Rage was how easy it was for the heroes to uncover the cause of the Rage; which, even in elfin terms, occured in a distant, only half-remembered past ... equivalent to Homers Greece or ancient Egypt in the mind of modern man.
The quest should have been more drawn out. And should have required something more than a saunter through Northkeep; built and destroyed just yesterday in the greater scheme of things. Even Myth Drannor would have been too recent a place to find such an blatantly clear and concise answer in my opinion.
I can say however, that I will nevertheless be purchasing the coming books in the trilogy. Mostly because I enjoy the writers use of words, and his ability to make interesting things that I don't usually care for (ie. odd little nonhuman creatures that, really, belong in Hillsfar somewhere).
Its also nice, I suppose, to read about other peoples ideas regarding, more-or-less, the same things. I look forward to reading more about Sammaster, and getting all worked up about the specifics of his return.
|
| SirUrza |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 18:48:14
I just want to point out that Forsaken House is very guilty of using game mechanics in novel too and everyone seems to be nuts over that one. :)
But again the Rage isn't the only one. Venom's Taste and Forsaken House are also whoring out Races of Faerun.
If you wanted to talk conspiracy theory, I'd say it's a conscience effort to make us find all these new races cool after the amount of critism Wizards has gotten over adding them all to the Realms. Everything that's muchkin has become force feed to us in the accessories, now they're trying to legitimize them by putting them in novels. |
| Crust |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 17:12:06
You both make good points. I don't own Races of Faerun, so I'm oblivious to those references in the novel.
I also agree that the roster of the party is a bit too "melting pot" on a certain level. It's like a season of the Real World, or a particular Power Ranger roster. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 12:49:33
I'll agree with Wyrmie on a couple of points...
I liked Morgalla in Elfsong. I didn't have a single problem with her character.
While I did enjoy the book The Rage, I wasn't bugged as much by rules scenes as I was just the variety of races represented in the main characters. An avariel, a half-golem, a song dragon, and an arctic dwarf? It was a bit too much for me. Had the arctic dwarf been a regular dwarf, it would have been more believable to me. As it was, it almost felt like the author had done a shopping list of exotic races to use as characters. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 08:09:25
Perhaps I ought to reread it and point out each place I thought was excessive. I just feel that there was too much effort to use Races of Faerun all over the book, from identifying a hornblade simply because the halfling was using it, to the artic dwarf and the avariel, to how you could count off the latter's use of bladesinger abilities.
Others were just fine. One that I remember is the cleric having missed his time to pray for new spells. It's straight out of the rules, but its a rule that doesn't require a feeling of limited omnicience, which is something that bugs me in many stories. (Tolkein made it work, but he was using a completely different literary style.)
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
[...] female dwarven bards who draw
I actually liked her a lot. I found nothing wrong with the concept, and it was actually necessary if Danilo were to gain entry into dwarven circles (he'd hardly be befriending a dwarven battlerager half as easily, now would he?). And really, considering how much I like to interperate the world with my drawings, I think that there aren't enough artists like that in the Realms, or even all of D&D.
quote:
[...] (even though a half-iron golem and an artic dwarf aren't exactly traditional PCs).
Don't forget the avariel, which was stressed as a huge no-no in 2e. Avariels are near-mythical and are only rarely supposed to interact with the rest of the Realms. If a winged character was absolutely necessary, it's easier and more believable than using an asimaar or tiefling with the Outsider Wings feat (plus, you get the Bladesinger levels), but I don't believe it was. Still, like seeing Arwen in armor, I'll wait until the third installment to rule on that one; if something good is done with the character in that way, I'll accept it. (It'll be easier to do than find any reason for having an arctic dwarf at all.)
In contrast, I actually approve of the half-golem concept.
quote:
To me, RAS is the one who is glaringly notorious for basically quoting the rulebooks verbatim. Let's look at a few examples:
-The mentioning of the Bigby spells in Passage to Dawn.
-Jarlaxle explaining to Entreri what happens when a bag of holding and a portable hole come in contact with each other in the short story from Realms of Shadow (the DMG is quoted here).
-Obould killing a bull and a great cat in The Lone Drow (obviously suggesting that his ceremony was merely the permanent casting of the ability buff spells).
I liked the Bigby spells, and how Melf's acid arrow was used. You can't completely get away from the rule books in D&D, but you can disguise them so as to be a part of the book's own world. That worked for me.
Obould's ceremony was just fine as well. It was completely in keeping with Real Life mythologies, especially Norse, where one absorbs the aspects of an animal. Sacrificing a beast of great strength and a beast of great agility in order to gain their aspects is far from unheard of.
The Realms of Shadow one was, on the other hand, completely out of place. You could hear the fourth wall shatter on that one.
[quote]
Phil Athans is also guilty of this. In Annihilation, Gromph is preparing to battle the Lichdrow Dyrr, and Gromph's apprentices basically quote the Monster Manual word-for-word concerning the strengths and weaknesses of the lich. That particular scene caused a reaction in me that I can't describe. There was no reason to even include that scene, as Gromph would already know that information anyway.
Perhaps it was that week's oral exam. Seriously, I completely agree with you there. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 24 Dec 2004 : 02:03:06
I've found with more novels as of late, including the current FR one I'm reading, I'm skimming over the battle scenes. Too many books have a plethora of fight scenes that contain little interest to me as I know that the characters are in no danger and will find some way to triumph. |
| Crust |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 17:22:08
I loved The Rage. I didn't really notice the die rolling as I read. What I did notice is a novel that took me back to the time I first read Chronicles, and how amazed I was to see how a party of adventurers exists in a novel as oppose to the table-top. At that age (15), I was a gamer, but not an avid reader. Chronicles turned me into an avid reader, and The Rage took me right back to that first spark that lead to me reading more, respecting reading, respecting the game, and I'm sure that spark contributed to me becoming an English teacher.
That having been said, I do agree that when the FR novels stray too close to the gaming table, it gets annoying. I didn't see The Rage as a huge example of this. I saw The Rage as a return to the classic party of adventurers. I'm so sick of authors trying new things. Some of those new ideas are way out of whack and just don't work for me (like female dwarven bards who draw, a wizard who can't stop barking, or an army of bugbears and beholders... and ONLY bugbears and beholders ). The Rage was more of a traditional novel for me, with a group of adventurers killing dragons, with each party member performing their individual roles, as would a group at the gaming table. I ate it up. Like I said above, it took me back to Chronicles, and that classic group of adventures (even though a half-iron golem and an artic dwarf aren't exactly traditional PCs).
To me, RAS is the one who is glaringly notorious for basically quoting the rulebooks verbatim. Let's look at a few examples:
-The mentioning of the Bigby spells in Passage to Dawn.
-Jarlaxle explaining to Entreri what happens when a bag of holding and a portable hole come in contact with each other in the short story from Realms of Shadow (the DMG is quoted here).
-Obould killing a bull and a great cat in The Lone Drow (obviously suggesting that his ceremony was merely the permanent casting of the ability buff spells).
Phil Athans is also guilty of this. In Annihilation, Gromph is preparing to battle the Lichdrow Dyrr, and Gromph's apprentices basically quote the Monster Manual word-for-word concerning the strengths and weaknesses of the lich. That particular scene caused a reaction in me that I can't describe. There was no reason to even include that scene, as Gromph would already know that information anyway. 
Greenwood would never, ever include such elementary information in his novels. He doesn't insult the intelligence of the reader, as many FR authors do by quoting rulebooks and automatically assuming that the reader knows absolutely nothing about the world, and must be hand-fed the story by cutting up our food like we're children. "Mom, will you cut up my steak for me! I can't do it!"
I didn't think The Rage was guilty of anything beyond recreating the classic party of adventurers. I devoured every page, and I never once stopped and said, "Wait a minute. Another author quoting the rulebooks. I'm annoyed now."
Some of the aspects of the novel might be cliché, but I like cliché every now and then. I need cliché in my FR novels once in a while just to rub salve on the rash caused by certain novels that try new ideas. I prefer the traditional group of adventurers, and The Rage is the most recent novel that satisfies that craving.
|
| Winterfox |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 14:51:58
Ahh, I see. Yes, I agree; I did get that impression, too, and there were a few instances where I could just almost hear the rolling dice. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 13:22:47
Basically, I think that it was just too obvious what the gameplay aspects of the action was. Non-battle scenes were okay -- well-written, really. I've said it before, though, how it got on my nerves the way that the battle dialogue was slanted as if coming through the log of a D&D game. I can write in that, obviously, as I've put that up on this site. But it was a pain in the neck, it felt unconvincing, and it's far too jaring to the reader. The only reason I did it was because the little story was just supposed to be a prologue to a PbeM log, and if I was going to novelize the rest, I couldn't switch styles.
In a novel, though, even a novel in a gaming universe, I don't want that little bit. Some people love to guess at all the little clues; technically, I suppose I do to, but not at the expense of losing myself in a story. That's what I want to do; I want to forget I'm looking at a paper and visualize the action. I can't do that if I'm thinking "Oh, must be suchandsuch feat." I'd actually identified several places that could have been, in my opinion, done better. Same action, but phrased so that it doesn't read like the author had the apropriate manual open to double-check it, the way I did when I was writing that fight scene. I've since forgotten most of it, but one I remember is how obviously one character has rogue levels, because he obviously has uncanny dodge, because he turns on instinct to dodge a surprise attack as he's doing a bit of burglary. All that was needed would have been that he heard a slight sound; if it happened like that, I never would have noticed it. And the thing about writing is that if you notice it, it was either on purpose or a terrible mistake.
I need to go back and try to finish it, though I might have to just wait until I forget the rest and then start over again. It's an important piece of work for the Realms, and it's well-written in terms of grammar, flow, etc., and even in immersion . . . up to the point that someone makes an attack roll, because I don't want to hear the dice rolling for this. I just want a story I can get lost in. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 12:11:16
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
He was talking about the avariel as a separate feature. (And I didn't much like him, actually. But then, I didn't much enjoy the book, for reasons I've stated before. I just gave up and went to something else that actually has a fourth wall.)
I'm curious -- apart from the overabundance of not-very-subtle gaming associations/terms, in what way did the novel break the fourth wall? (Or ignore it, as you seem to imply?)
Me, as I've said before elsewhere, I just found the Kara/Dorn romance utterly unconvincing. Unfortunately, it wasn't minor enough to ignore. But oh well. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 05:24:15
He was talking about the avariel as a separate feature. (And I didn't much like him, actually. But then, I didn't much enjoy the book, for reasons I've stated before. I just gave up and went to something else that actually has a fourth wall.) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 05:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Not the avariel, silly boy. The Dragon and dragonhater. :)
 |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 18:36:03
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrzaThat novelty will get old in a hurry, kinda like good drow really tiring, really fast.
There are good drow in the Realms? You mean besides the dead kind?
*snickers*
You know what I mean.
quote:
quote:
Call me a softy, but I'm always a sucker for a romance between adventurers. I guess I just like it when there's more content to the story then kill the bad guys with just your life and all the Realms on the line.
The tension between Dorn and Kara is one of the novel's best features. That and a charming avariel. 
Not the avariel, silly boy. The Dragon and dragonhater. :) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 05:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
That novelty will get old in a hurry, kinda like good drow really tiring, really fast.
There are good drow in the Realms? You mean besides the dead kind?
quote:
Call me a softy, but I'm always a sucker for a romance between adventurers. I guess I just like it when there's more content to the story then kill the bad guys with just your life and all the Realms on the line.
The tension between Dorn and Kara is one of the novel's best features. That and a charming avariel. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 05:11:30
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met. Care to expand on thine experience with the novel, SirUrza? I'd like to hear thy views on the novel, as i'm sure would Richard and many other scribes herein. Any absolutely beautiful novel, in my opinion 
I'd love to offer some input.
So far it's a very interesting cast of characters. I just hope that not all of the new novels feature 3.5 PC races that keep popping up in new supplements. That novelty will get old in a hurry, kinda like good drow really tiring, really fast. However, I fear after starting on Forsaken House (and having some idea about Venom's Taste is about) that will be the case.
Call me a softy, but I'm always a sucker for a romance between adventurers. I guess I just like it when there's more content to the story then kill the bad guys with just your life and all the Realms on the line. |
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